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Welcome to the Ordinary Discipleship podcast, and I am here with the one and only Jesse Cruickshank. Yeah, and also joining us again today from California, Julia. Today, ladies and gentlemen, you have come to a spectacular episode out. Boy, you should pat yourself on the back because we are going to talk about the hero's journey. You might be asking yourself, what does that mean?

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I'll be honest with you. I'm not sure, but I'm going to figure it out in the next 20 minutes or so. The Ordinary Discipleship Book. Jesse, you used this hero's journey in your book. Yeah. Can you first tell me what the heck is the hero's journey? Well, we use it as a map for disciple. I see. Okay. Because there's a universal aspect to it.

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So my girl Julia studied this specifically like she's also passionate about it. And I love. I love the way that you talk about it. I think she's deferring to you. it sounds like it. So let me ask you, Chris, are you a Star Wars fan? I am such a Star Wars nerd. Yes, I am a Star Wars nerd.

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I made I made my grandfather drive me 60 miles to see the debut of Empire Strikes Back. I had all the playsets. I know every I can. Yes. So for all of us, Generation Xers. Yeah. Grew up with Star Wars, represent. Yeah, It was my first VHS set, you know, on my little 13 inch, you know, VHS War it out.

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Yep, absolutely wore it out. That is the hero's journey, right? It's Luke Skywalker encounters a problem, and he is faced with the dilemma of whether or not he's going to choose to be a Jedi. And what does he do? He says, No, I'm going home. I have responsibilities. I'm going to tap out. And that's what he needs. Some power converters needs power converters.

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I don't want to do the moisture Evaporators uncle, old cheese, worst actor ever. But man, that was great, right? And Mark Hamill happens. He's forced into becoming a Jedi because his aunt and uncle get killed, right? Yeah. Like something happens and he's he's forced into becoming these blaster marks to see. There you go. You can put it, but I can't.

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Right. Yeah. So that's what he does. He's, he's forced into a journey that he wasn't expecting to happen. And then along the way, he gets he meets a guy who meets a guy who trains him into how to become a Jedi. And then he has his climax moment where he is facing Darth Vader, right? Yeah. What a rough journey.

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Figures out his sister's the princess, right? Exactly. Exactly. So it. It obviously. And super well. Well, George Lucas actually studied under a guy at at USC called Joseph Campbell. And Joseph Campbell was an English professor that studied all the myth, not all, but the mythic stories of cultures all around the world throughout the centuries. And what he discovered is that there was an archetype that this is an ancient archetype throughout history of what he calls the hero's adventure.

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And so he wrote about the power of a myth and essentially what it is, it's a death and resurrection experience. You have a hero, then encounters a problem that meets a guide, who gives them a plan and then takes them on into a successful outcome. And so I had learned about this from a marketing perspective. If anybody is familiar with Donald Miller, this is what he's done with with building a story brand.

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That's how you go through. You walk people through that, that change. And I was doing that in in church communications and in marketing and communications. And I began to think, how can I do this with like for discipleship? Because I was also pastoring a church at the time. And so as I began to map that out as only God can do, I ended up meeting a guy randomly who interviews me for something and says, You should meet a friend of mine.

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Her name's Jessie Cruickshank, and she's writing a book on the journey of discipleship. And it turns out she's like a brain science person, everything. So Jessie and I met and we began to talk and geek out on on this hero's journey. But I'll just give you a real brief overview, and then Jessie can tell you all the fancy stuff about it.

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So she and I ended up she was actually had been teaching for 20 years the Hero's Adventure, the Hero's Journey, and she went through the really the the whole 12 step process that Joseph Campbell does. And what she and I did was simplify it. And essentially what we saw is that it's actually a map for discipleship. It's not just a map for marketing or anything.

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It's actually the way that God has wired us to change. So God takes an ordinary person who answers the call by the way, we always answer the call now first, and we can get into all the scriptures of that. Who answers the call? Who teams with others to learn new things that feels the struggle and then experience is a revelation.

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And then at the end, lives change by Jesus. And if you look at the map and the shownotes, we'll link to that specific outline that we have. But if you look at the map, you go through a death and resurrection experience and that's how you live changed at the end of it. And so and then the other piece of it for us is also just then as as disciple makers, right?

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What it does is by seeing that kind of journey mapped out and you see kind of the ebb and flow of how discipleship take place, I can then meet somebody and say, they're in it, they are have are answering the call. I can help them discern that season that they're in or I can help them. They I need to pull back because when it comes time to actually filling the struggle and experiencing revelation, they have to do that piece of it at the end, just like Frodo throwing the ring into the ring of fire at the end.

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Right? So there's there's different elements to this map of discipleship that that you see. And if you can, if you understand it, if you can just, you know, get a get a glimpse of it. I know it's helped me to understand where people are at in their discipleship process and to be able to name it. Yeah. So I was introduced to the hero's journey by my brother, who was actually attending USC film school in 2003.

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cool. So in 2003 he's like, my gosh, like this amazing thing. And and I read the book and learned about it. And as a neuroscientist, I was most intrigued by the fact that it's in every culture because I really like those things that are universal to us as humans, because each individual human is too different and that seems like a lot of work to figure out if you're going to be a teacher, I'm going to be a teacher or disciple maker.

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And so I was like, Wow, this is universal. That means that we can actually talk about this with everybody. And we had just gone bigger with the Wilderness Ministry, Solid Rock, Outdoor Ministries, and we were starting to teach the people who would come on the expeditions, the hero's journey at the beginning of the expedition, because we're like, okay, well, how do we frame this wall for them?

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How do we help them know the adventure that they're about to go on and that, you know, there are going to be things that are amazing and they're going to be things that are very not amazing. And we just wanted to help prepare them emotionally for what's about to happen over the next 40 days. And so we would map out the hero's journey and we would also show them where it was in scripture.

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We would be like, okay, look at this talk. Where do you see this in Scripture? And they would talk about Moses and having to go into the wilderness and then being called back into Egypt. yeah, that's a perfect example. Yeah. Because even he was like, no at first, right. Yeah. He's it. No. So, so he's it, No it, both parts like he actually has a he has is to hear it.

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Yes. Yeah. Right, right. So he was going into the wilderness. Yeah. And then there's coming back out and accepting the call to lead the people of Israel. The children of Israel themselves go through the hero's journey of leaving Egypt and being, you know, they say no at the foot of Mount Sinai and like, bad stuff goes, you know, they build a golden calf and they're like, I don't know, God on our terms, you know, And they have to they have to go through their own wilderness so that they're changed and then ready to go into the promised land.

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So there are I mean, we can we could talk about multiple people and kind of map out their hero's journey. And and in the show notes, we can link to to Peter's hero's journey. But we were teaching this to the people about to go on the expedition. So that they would know. And they started to see. And we wanted them to see where they were on their own journey.

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Because what I believe personally is that the reason why it's universal is because God has put it in our hearts. And I think God has put it in our hearts because it's the story of our own lives. And as a disciple maker, because it's the journey we're all walking, that means that I can come alongside you and see where you're at in the journey.

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I can be like, we're in this part of it. I know how to lean in, I know how to help. I know how to coach. I knew. Do you need new information? no. You just need me to hold space with you because you're in the part that only you can do, right? I can see what place you're in and take the right posture as a disciple maker.

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So even if I don't actually have any answers, I kind of know where we're at. And how do you know? So for me, it's by talking to the person and saying, What? What do you feel like God is doing in your life? You know, like, man, I don't have any I don't have any answers. I've been really arguing with God.

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I don't I'm really doubtful. Well, they maybe I would argue with God if I like was even brave enough to talk to God. But like, really, I'm really struggling with this. Okay, well, you're in. You're in the pit, you're in the dark spot. You're in your struggle. Struggle? Yeah, right. And my job then is to be with you and help encouraging you to connect with God in that space.

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Or maybe we're having a conversation and you're like, you know, I feel like God has kind of challenged me or, or maybe you don't even have that language. You're like, I kind of feel like maybe I'm supposed to or maybe I want to do this thing and we'll talk about that a little bit because you might be discerning a call, right?

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And if you're discerning the call, I'm there to help you through the no spot so that we can get you to the Yes. Mean, like, okay, great. You're on the yes side of that. Who's God sending you with who's who's coming around you in this new place to help you do this? Who might be your mentor, who might be your friends and allies and other people to journey with you?

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God, you know, so I can have a conversation with you and be like, okay, this is the moment that you're in and your story. And I and I can know what I'm supposed to say or not say, right? Because there's that moment. I'm not supposed to sit there and tell you all the struggles you're about to have right now.

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It's not that's discouraging. That's not, you know, or how do you find the people to journey with, Right? Because every journey we actually do with other people. Right? Right. So so it's a map even when we don't know where we're at. So you talked about the hero's journey and discipleship, but what about the hero's journey in leadership? And so so that's I mean, you mentioned it with Moses, right?

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Moses goes through that that two stages and it actually that's what we all do. Like if as we're developing in, in our maturity throughout our lifetime, we go through to two major transformations, we go through one that's really identity forming and one that's more authority forming. And so that second one is going to be what develops us in our leadership in which we really can begin to, as Jesse says, hold space, because I'm not then like if you're walking through something, it's not.

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I'm upset at you because, you know, you don't know how to process what you're going through in that moment. I can know I can be so secure in who I am and who God's called me to be that I can stand with you and by you while you're walking out that piece of your journey. okay. Okay. Yeah.

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So we all have these these seasons, these iterations, right? There are lessons that Heaven is teaching us. They're adventures that heaven calls us on. And each one of those can be a hero's journey cycle. And when you're responsible for other people, then you're both going through your own journey while you're trying to help be a shepherd or a guide.

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Yeah, that's a good point, because you're also as the leader, you're going through your own hero's journey as you're trying to navigate that. And usually your hero's journey is caused by their issues. wow. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. So their problems and your responsibility in that situation is actually the lesson of your own discipleship and your own journey.

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Because we're always a disciple and, you know, and we're living in all the spaces at one time. Right? And you said that earlier, like disciple and leadership is different, but it's so in twined with each other, right? Yeah. Wow, that was a lot in about 13 or 14 minutes. And I don't know. Do you have anything else to, like, talk?

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I mean, I would just encourage people to maybe spend some time reflecting. Yeah. Where are they in their own journey? Like. Like what if they were going to map it out and we actually do have a tool to help them. so they can check that out, that they can check that on the show notes. But to sit and go where where am I?

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Have I destroyed the Death Star? I still am. I'm sad to leave and totally. Or am I in the middle of the of space? Yeah, in between. Just trying to figure some stuff out because I have an assignment, but I don't actually know what struck at the cantina bargain. So you see, you know, like Star Wars is a perfect example.

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He destroys the Death Star and after that, he goes into intense training. Yeah. So it's not like he just arrived as the perfect. That's perfect. He's actually the fisherman got him right, you know, so he. Obi-Wan. And just so you know, the guy dies in all this story, right? Yeah. Like so. Yeah, right. You're the pastor guy. You're the pastor guy.

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You're making it to the end. That's no wilderness. No. Yeah, I got you. Right. So it's the point as as guides and coming alongside is to die. It's not about us when we're going into this, when we're going coming alongside people to hear that pastor, it's like, you know, it's like, my favorite, favorite modern day him is the wonderful cross.

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And it says, to bid me come and die to find that I might truly live. And that's the crux of it. That's why I love the hero's journey. Yeah. Because if when I die and I experience that revelation, I find like, no, I actually have life. And so I would encourage everybody. We should mention we have these and the show notes and go take a look, but you can walk through the entire hero's journey, you can walk through Peter's and there's there's a lot of questions.

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So you have that all written down. All that is and Jesse has an entire course, not just the book, but an entire course online. And it will walk through the different elements of not just the hero's journey, but of the different things that you're going to be facing along the way. So if somebody wants to take that course, like how do they go about to do that?

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You know, the course is available on who oligarchy. CO So that's o0l Waco and there you can access the course, you can get the different downloads for diagrams because, because we and those are free. Like we just want you to have those not the course but the downloads are free. I mean, we can't give away everything. I mean, we just things take time.

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These things take time. But you can go there. You can also pick up my book, Ordinary Discipleship, which helps walk you through as a disciple maker, how to how to look in and help a disciple with each one of those places. Awesome. Wow. Guys, thank you so much. That was really informative. That was a power packed 15 minutes, don't you think?

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Jacob, thank you so much for joining us on Ordinary Discipleship podcast. We look forward to seeing you next time. Make sure to go and like subscribe. Leave a comment if you're enjoying this podcast. If not, then just don't do anything. All right. God bless you. Have a great night. Bye bye.