00;00;00;00 - 00;00;27;20
Unknown
Well, I am super excited to have with me my dear friend, a short time where we've known each other. But like fast friends, I know fast, right? Like, yeah, we're in it together already. Already? foxhole. Foxhole friends. That's right. I have Aubrey Sampson with me and, Aubrey Copeland and serves on the teaching and preaching team at Renewal Church there in Chicagoland.

00;00;27;23 - 00;00;50;21
Unknown
she is award nominated. That's a that's a great word. Oh, an award nominated author and contributor to Propel Women. So Aubrey preaches and speaks around the country at churches, ministry events. She and her husband and their three sons live and minister in Chicagoland area. But she just came out with her most recent book, known, which looks at how God names us and what happens when we start believing that and participating with that.

00;00;50;21 - 00;01;08;25
Unknown
Because isn't that isn't that the journey? Isn't that the work? Right there? Isn't that the whole thing right there? It's so fun to be here, Jesse. Thanks for having me. So excited. Thank you. I'm okay. The truth is, I get excited about all my guests, but that's because I love all of the people. And it's always fun to have conversations with your friend.

00;01;08;25 - 00;01;29;16
Unknown
Awesome. Yes. That's right. It's so fun to have. So here's the first question. Okay. What? So I want to talk to you today about this idea of shame and how it affects our leadership and our cultures that we build. Because you you are also a leader in your church and in your area. Yeah. And it's this thing that definitely affects our discipleship.

00;01;29;16 - 00;01;49;23
Unknown
And I think we talk about that just a little bit, although we could always talk about that more. But I want to talk with you about how that affects our leadership. Yeah. Yeah. And so for you, what was an moment for you about how being known by God changes the way we experience shame. And, and this idea that wow God sees me.

00;01;49;28 - 00;02;10;10
Unknown
Yeah. Likes me not just loves me but likes me. And and what was kind of that moment for you or something that helped you look at shame differently. Yeah. Look at that being known by God differently. Yeah I feel like this is like a, this is like the journey of my life. I mean we all, we all sort of like right.

00;02;10;10 - 00;02;37;15
Unknown
And preach about what we need. Right. So the journey of my life is that I, I am, I am a, I like to achieve and I like other people's approval. And that's never a great place to be when that sort of like it's not when it's not flowing from your identity. Right. When instead of like, that's like like what we want out of life, though it is.

00;02;37;18 - 00;03;03;00
Unknown
It gets us into leadership positions, for sure. It does get us in the leader position, and it's actually not a bad thing. I mean, I think because sometimes, you know, you can like, feel alive, like, oh, I'm just I'm too driven. I'm too you know, I think that's all a lie, like, especially for women. But I do think where it can be distorted by shame is when you're going, oh, you whatever, whatever tribe or person, I want your approval.

00;03;03;00 - 00;03;28;05
Unknown
I want you to see my achievements. Oh, you fill my cup. You tell me I'm worthy. You know that's where it gets. And we do this with parents. We do this with boyfriends. We do this with scholars, with leaders we like, you know? Anyway, so, I would say an moment for me. I was speaking somewhere, and, I mean, I've been doing this a long time, Jesse, and but I was speaking somewhere, and I look so young, darling.

00;03;28;08 - 00;03;52;18
Unknown
Oh, thank God. for four days after I was like, oh, I missed. I should have said this. Should have said that. Totally screwed that up. I didn't mention blah blah, blah. And like, it got to the point where I was like, I couldn't sleep at night because I was just totally analyzing everything I had done wrong, and I wasn't like I was getting negative feedback.

00;03;52;18 - 00;04;24;22
Unknown
It was like fine feedback. I think it went well, but I couldn't get out of my head. and I, I realized how often I'm just literally trying to save myself. Like, I am trying to, like, make myself righteous before people I am. I am so operating from a place of not God's beloved daughter, but some enslaved person who desperately needs someone else to tell me I'm a good leader or a good speaker.

00;04;24;26 - 00;04;49;00
Unknown
I mean, you know. So anyway, all that to say, I was it's exhausting. And it's like, you know, it's exhausting. But until until you, like, hit the wall of enough exhaustion. So I, I remember I was talking to my spirit just about an moment. I was talking to my spiritual director about this and, saying to her things like, I can't believe I'm still struggling with this.

00;04;49;00 - 00;05;14;25
Unknown
I'm so, I should know better than this. Just even shame language around the shame I was feeling, you know what I mean? It's like shame on shame on shame. Yeah. And, she was like, girl, it's time for you to have a little bit of grace for yourself. What if. What if instead of being in the shame spike cycle, you just went, oh, there it is again.

00;05;14;27 - 00;05;35;17
Unknown
I'm trying to save myself. God, would you remind me that I'm your daughter and I'm just going to give this to you? You save me. I can't save myself. And I know that sounds so simple, Jesse, but it was the most profound thing because it was the difference between, like, beating myself up and seeing myself as a beloved daughter, loved by Jesus and grace, even for my shame.

00;05;35;17 - 00;05;53;02
Unknown
You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I think to be able to, to, you know, it will be real that all of us in leadership or all of us speaking or whatever, you're going to have days where you're going to go, oh, I should have done this instead. That's, you know, that's part of learning and growing. And like, I think we actually should grow that way.

00;05;53;06 - 00;06;18;17
Unknown
But I think the difference to be able to go and also man, my father, my God, loves me so much as his daughter and like, go take a nap, you know what I mean? Like, so both things can be do. I can grow and learn and do better next time. And I'm so, so, so so loved. My identity is loved by God and I think that is the that's the whole journey for all of us, right.

00;06;18;17 - 00;06;35;07
Unknown
Like right where we can screw up and there's just not all this weird energy around us. Right? Like energy. We don't obsess about it. And it's not our our whole everything. It's just like, oh yeah, I'll do I'll, I'll learn from that next time I speak. It'll be great. Trust in God. Did something there. Now I'm going to go take a nap because God loves me.

00;06;35;07 - 00;06;57;09
Unknown
You know, it's just like, oh my gosh, such a softer approach. What helped me, like, even be aware that I was behaving weird about stuff. Okay, it's going to sound strange, but it was my dog. I had a very and emotionally intelligent dog, but like, I could correct her and she'd be like, I'm sorry. And then once we were paired, like once like, she's like.

00;06;57;11 - 00;07;19;01
Unknown
Like I'm like, are you sorry? And she gives me her and she's like, okay, tell me I'm okay. And then she just move on with her life like she was. She was aware enough to know that she'd screwed up. She wanted emotional repair. Yeah, but she didn't carry shame with her. Wow. Like, she didn't, like, keep having to check in, like, oh, am I okay or am I still looking like.

00;07;19;01 - 00;07;39;16
Unknown
You're right? She moved on. I mean, she could be naughty in the next five minutes and we don't have to do it again, right? Right. Like I was like, oh my gosh, my dog lives. So like with emotional intelligence, but not this level of self-consciousness. Wow. What? What's wrong with me that I can't do? I said, my dog has more freedom than I do.

00;07;39;18 - 00;07;56;22
Unknown
Like I was like, oh my gosh, oh, I that's what is my power. Oh yeah. Yeah, right. And it is a human problem. I mean, I think that's where we can sort of step back and laugh at ourselves and like, okay, God, thank you that you stepped into even this problem. You know what I mean? But you're right.

00;07;56;22 - 00;08;24;20
Unknown
Like your dog has your dog has more freedom than. And I do. Right? Cause, yeah, that's real right there. That's real right there. Oh, so I think just being, you know, like that, knowing where so known and accepted. Right. That's changes everything is suddenly we're living from approval and not for it. And that's right. That's right. Changing my dog.

00;08;24;26 - 00;08;51;06
Unknown
My dog has more secure attachment with me as a human than I do with God the Almighty, most perfect being in the universe, right? Right. Yeah. Seriously. So. It just. Yeah, it just kind of, you know, it's that thing that brings perspective. I love, I love, I love your story and, and I and I'm just interested then like, how did it impact your leadership.

00;08;51;06 - 00;09;16;07
Unknown
Yeah. Like like help show us the ripple effects of that moment into, into the rest of your life and, and your leadership and how you started to think about that differently. I would say, and I think this is probably true in the Western American church in particular, like this would not be unique to me. So I think, you know, those of you who are listening from that context will understand this.

00;09;16;09 - 00;09;39;02
Unknown
I was swinging back and forth in my leadership between I suck, I'm not enough, I can't do this. Who do I think I am? And oh, I'm going to build a tower onto my own name. I'm going to professionalize my brand and make a name for Aubrey Sampson. And it was just like this pendulum of just like, not enough or I need to be something that's recognized.

00;09;39;02 - 00;10;03;22
Unknown
And it was like the difference. It was like I was exchanging, being seen for, being known for or just or just berating myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, so you equate it being seen with being known. Oh, yeah. I seeing you were like, yeah, because. Because neither of which were being known, neither of which are being now, neither of which are being.

00;10;03;24 - 00;10;33;21
Unknown
Wow. and and I think that that's probably, unfortunately, the reality of a lot of leadership in the American West right now is either where we just think we can't we're not doing a good enough job at ministry or church leadership or whatever. And so we're burnout and we're done or or we feel like we have to like professional, place our names and like, build a tower onto ourselves.

00;10;33;21 - 00;11;17;12
Unknown
Right. So, so that's how it played out ultimately just kind of this pendulum swing. Right? And I just I'm so grateful for God's kindness because I just feel like in the middle of that guy just kept, like, coming to find me. Right? Oh, and and I feel like God's God's goodness and God's invitation has continually and for all of us really is just like, just rest in me, you know, stop as much as you can, stop wrestling, stop striving, stop earning, stop sacrificing to the old sacrificial system and instead rest in me, you know?

00;11;17;12 - 00;11;50;21
Unknown
And, you know, part of some of the stories I tell in my own are really just, God like, reminding me, like, you can your loved, your loved and, you know, it's funny about this is I even going back to shame. I been a Christian for, you know, let's see, I, like 33 years, and I feel like some of this stuff that I'm saying is very basic, foundational, like, you have a good God who loves you like very basic kind of gospel stuff.

00;11;50;21 - 00;12;06;22
Unknown
But it's amazing to me that I feel like the the journey the Lord has me on is like like we're going back a little bit deeper, a little more intimately into that same truth, you know, because there's a part of you like that goes, oh, you should know this by now. You're loved by a good God. But even that's like the shame of waste, right?

00;12;06;24 - 00;12;30;13
Unknown
So I just, God like, hey, loved one, he loved beloved. Beloved. You know, I feel like that's sort of the journey God consistently has me on. And I think to lead from that place. Cup full guides abundance, God's love for you guys, acceptance and approval from you. You can actually pour that out and minister to other people from that place rather than from the place of like, do you like me?

00;12;30;13 - 00;12;51;16
Unknown
Fill my cup? Am I good enough for you? You know what I mean? And it's just, yeah, one is graceful and one is God's there and the other is just. We all know this is just depleting and like it and it's insecure and it's not good for the people you're leading either because they sense that. Right? Right. Because, you know, I mean, I was raised this same kind of way.

00;12;51;19 - 00;13;08;11
Unknown
I was raised in a church that was very shaming and that God loves you and you have to earn it on the back end. Like, yeah, you have to repay. Jesus paid your debt to God, but now you have a debt to Jesus, and you're like spending your life repaying that and earning the thing that you did. Yeah, right.

00;13;08;11 - 00;13;27;11
Unknown
You make yourself worthy of the great sacrifice that Jesus did on the cross. And, you know, I just think that regardless of how we're raised or what environment we're we're raising, because I'm not I'm sure that there were I mean, my parents never taught me that, like, the church taught me that. Yeah. And I think the fall causes us to hear that message first.

00;13;27;13 - 00;13;47;25
Unknown
Like that. Every part of our heart has to come into that place of identity of daughter, ship and sonship. And, yeah, believe that God like we have to be. Every part of our heart has to be wooed out of that love. Yeah. That's right. yeah. And I think that you're right that the where we still wrestle with that and, and I don't know if I get like, completely redeemed in that on the side of eternity.

00;13;47;26 - 00;14;23;08
Unknown
Maybe not. I'm doing a lot of work for it. But if I get that right. Right. But I think the interesting thing about leadership is that we bring, no matter what our assignment is, we always have those insecurities that are in there, and the assignment brings them out, right. That brings them to the surface. Yeah. And somehow we've convinced ourselves or other people have convinced us that if we just disassociate, if we just hold people at arm's length, if we just hide a little bit and don't and only tell these things to like two people, or why our wife, right.

00;14;23;08 - 00;14;44;18
Unknown
Because you and I, neither of us have wives, husbands, but both. I would tell your wife, tell your spiritual director, tell your therapist. Like those are the people that can know about it, but otherwise, keep it to yourself. Yeah. And and the lie is that it doesn't impact. Like we can somehow put a buffer in there that will keep it from, I think, everyone else and I don't I don't think that's true.

00;14;44;18 - 00;15;05;01
Unknown
I've never seen that be true. Like I think we all lead out of our relationship or the depth of our relationship with God. Yeah. So how have you seen shame in this wrestle like impact, either your leadership and specific or other people's leadership? I mean, I'm not looking for you to tell stories of other people. Yeah. You see, like the fruit of this is in leadership because we can't hide it.

00;15;05;06 - 00;15;40;02
Unknown
We can't cover it up. We can't. I mean, you know, unfortunately, you know, I, I live in minister in Chicago and we've seen, man, the amounts of pastors who have allowed their shame to lead to anger, like self-aggrandizement and then somehow that's turned into like, privilege, which is turned into you serve me. It's like instead of I mean, this is what's wild.

00;15;40;02 - 00;15;58;21
Unknown
It's like shame, I think can either make you go, I'm not enough, I suck, I quit, I'll never do this again. And then people leave leadership. They even lead their leave their relationship with the Lord. The other thing you see is how shame can become toxic and make you like this arrogant, power hungry. And so that's the root of narcissism, isn't it?

00;15;58;24 - 00;16;26;03
Unknown
That's it. And so, you know, in Chicago, the stories that we've seen of of very well-known, quote unquote, famous pastors who I think have allowed their shame to rule their identity and their leadership, the ripple effect is like, honestly, Jesse, like churches are falling apart. people are beyond hurt and not sure if they can trust Jesus like so.

00;16;26;03 - 00;16;44;05
Unknown
The ripple effect is like, there's maybe some, there's some relational pain and heartache that needs to be repaired. People aren't treated well in churches. They're not empowered in churches because it becomes all about the pastor and what they can do. But then I think the larger ripple effect is like, literally people are walking away from Jesus, right?

00;16;44;05 - 00;17;06;25
Unknown
Because their leaders and their pastors have allowed chain to turn into a toxic identity. And it's, maybe that's more general than you're looking for, but, I mean, I think that's what's at stake. Do you know what I mean? When we enemy to let shame survive and control? Because it does. It turns, it turns, oh, it turns narcissistic.

00;17;06;25 - 00;17;38;04
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And then abusive. And I mean, it's just, I mean, that what that gets me thinking about is that, you know, I've been I've been thinking about humans or humans. And as a psychologist and neuroscientists, like humans are like people for people. Yeah. Right. And we're, we're talking about and experiencing and finally bringing voice to these toxic cultures that have been created in the church and environment or in the spiritual environments, faith environments.

00;17;38;04 - 00;18;03;07
Unknown
I don't think it's just, you know, megachurch only or whatever. Like, I don't think the model matters. I agree with you on that wholeheartedly. Yep. And it's so much more damaging than if you experienced the same type of leadership in a workplace. And I've been kind of noodling around like, what is some of the difference here? You know, because in a workplace, when you have a toxic environment, a workplace or a toxic leader in a workplace, it's somehow doesn't do the same damage.

00;18;03;07 - 00;18;17;27
Unknown
Interesting. And I think, I think that spiritual dynamic. Right. Because you can have you can have a, you can have an abusive leader in the workplace. And it is just that and you can say yes or no to that. You can walk away or deal with it or whatever. Yeah. Like like there's your response to that.

00;18;17;27 - 00;18;42;16
Unknown
But when that same kind of thing happens in the church, it's not just abuse or neglect, which is a form of abuse. Yeah. But it's also spiritual abuse. Like it will always be also spiritual abuse. Oh yeah. Which isn't the same is true as the workplace. Right. So the workplace, like I've been in both the corporate environment and the ministry environment and the workplace is so much cleaner because everything isn't also and spiritual abuse interesting.

00;18;42;18 - 00;19;04;15
Unknown
And I think that's because like, this is my conclusion. And tell me what you think and you know, like help me understand this, okay. The potential because the church environment is that potential to identity formation and belonging, which isn't automatically assumed of the job. You can just have a job total because you're in a faith environment. And this journey of discipleship is an identity journey, and it's a faith community.

00;19;04;15 - 00;19;30;04
Unknown
Like like they're different. Yeah. That openness to identity and belonging will always make the damage worse. in a faith environment. Yeah. So the impact of shame will always be stronger. The impact of insecure, neglectful or abusive leadership will always be more profound and amplified. Yeah. And so so here's my conclusion. And in like you were the expert on I mean, you're you're more expert than me on this for sure.

00;19;30;06 - 00;19;52;02
Unknown
But so it makes me think that spiritual maturity is about increasing that knowing and being known by God and others so that we have less shame or less. We confront our shame more. But like like, what do you think about that? Like the the relationship of spiritual maturity to being numb, being knowing others, having less shame in the environment?

00;19;52;03 - 00;20;13;24
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's so interesting because if if church truly is belonging, identity formation, family, community like this, even marriage, we use that metaphor for the church like it makes sense that the damage done there would be so much deeper like I so I think you're you're that's really interesting the you're on to something.

00;20;13;25 - 00;20;34;17
Unknown
I think you're really onto something there. Why it feels so much deeper is that the the abuse is always spiritual abuse. and I think you're right. I mean, this is what's wild about spiritual maturity is I do think spiritual spiritual maturity, as we we have associated it with, I'm doing more. I'm, I mean, you and I both like learning.

00;20;34;17 - 00;21;06;16
Unknown
So I want to be careful about this, but I think we've said mental assent to certain ideas over union with Christ and with other people. Yeah. And, and really, I think the true mark of spiritual maturity is exactly right. Are we just vulnerably surrendering to the love of God and being known by other people and doing the work to really know and love other people that feel?

00;21;06;16 - 00;21;23;18
Unknown
I mean, that's spiritual maturity. And I don't mean loving just like, oh, I love you like loving towards Jesus. Are we all, as a community, becoming more and more like Christ? And I don't think becoming more and more like Christ means we're necessarily I mean, I hope we're all about mission and going after things, but I don't think it's necessarily that we're doing more spiritual things and checking off the box.

00;21;23;18 - 00;21;47;19
Unknown
And like, we know more doctrine and we I think it really is this concept of like, deeper and deeper and deeper. Am I being known? is my identity being formed by my good God? And, out of that safety, can I be vulnerable with other people, you know, naked. Right. And unashamed. Yes. Yeah. Other people.

00;21;47;19 - 00;22;12;17
Unknown
And can I be the safe person for them to be naked in unashamed with me so that they experience the love of God through me? I mean, maybe it's idealistic and and perhaps you're right that until we meet Jesus face to face, but I still think that's the goal. And we we tend to overcomplicate the goal. Like, you know, knowing and being known is such a good invitation.

00;22;12;20 - 00;22;38;06
Unknown
And of course, sin and brokenness messes it up. But, like, can we keep coming to God asking for that and seeing it in the church? I just feel like, man, how we would thrive and see healing happen and the Spirit of God would move in such powerful ways. Yeah. I mean, I've been fortunate to be a part of, a large community of about 200 people that were that live like that.

00;22;38;09 - 00;23;00;12
Unknown
Wow. And we created ever since, you know, in pockets and stuff. But it is idealistic and it is possible. Yeah. And man, I just, I, I think about like how the world would be different, how ministry would be different, how the, the church would be different if we were more like that. Are you I mean, you have a book on this you wrote about this.

00;23;00;12 - 00;23;21;10
Unknown
Yeah. tell us a little bit about known. Yeah. People can find more about that. thank you for asking that. Appreciate it. so known was born out of some of this stuff we're talking about, like I had I had written a book about overcoming shame and then written a book about spiritual practice of lament out of grief.

00;23;21;13 - 00;23;40;04
Unknown
And I think, honestly, this no one was sort of just that next season of like, okay, Lord, you and I went through some really hard stuff together over the past decade. Am I loved by you. And, you know, again, I feel like I it's funny to think I'm going back to some very foundational Christian questions, but I think that's the journey for all of us.

00;23;40;04 - 00;23;55;13
Unknown
Like we are going deeper and deeper and deeper. So sometimes I think we think we're circling back to the same things and we're like, oh, why am I still here? But I do think we are circling back in the fullness of time, but deeper like each time God's like peeling more layers back. Yes, I know you. Yes, I love you.

00;23;55;13 - 00;24;20;03
Unknown
Yes, I'm good and so known was kind of born out of, that and born out of this thing that we talked about earlier that I was seeing in my own soul. But seeing in a lot of, the church was this, like, pressure to, like, make a name for yourself, even in the kingdom and sort of this pressure to, like, I'm going to save the world by doing these big, amazing things.

00;24;20;03 - 00;24;42;18
Unknown
And it's like, I felt like nobody was sort of honoring a small, faithful life lived each and every day. I love your neighborhood. Love your love God, love your neighbors. It's like nobody was like saying, that's an amazing thing that changes the world, you know? So this concept, I think of, just that God knows us, God loves us, and God names us like that's how intimately God knows us.

00;24;42;18 - 00;25;03;28
Unknown
And what does it mean for the Christian to live from that place and minister from that place, and lead from that place, and love other people from that place? Again, going back to this idea of like, not for approval, but from it, I think that's freedom. There's freedom there. That's God's invitation. That's God's invitation for you and me and for the church.

00;25;04;01 - 00;25;22;23
Unknown
And it's good. I mean, that's I think part of it too, is I'm like, oh yeah, Lord, as I'm writing this book, I'm like, because you're a writer, Jesse. I think, I think with my fingers I pray with my fingers. I figure out what I mean and what I want and what I know as I'm typing. Yeah. And so then you go back and read it and it like, yeah, you, you're like, oh, you're really good.

00;25;22;23 - 00;25;48;14
Unknown
I'm really like that too. Yeah. So I think that's part of the journey as I was writing was like, oh God, you are good. Oh, you are intimately involved in our lives. You do speak to your children. You do welcome in Levis. You do have a purpose for us. Oh, I think I forgot. God, thank you. You know, so the book is really sort of I, I, I do look at, from Genesis to Revelation, Scripture about the image of God.

00;25;48;14 - 00;26;24;12
Unknown
And what does that actually mean? And then how do we live from that place. So that's what that's that's a long elevator pitch for known. And anyway, you can fly known as wherever books are sold. Or you can find on my website Aubrey Samsung.com or I'm at Bob stamp on social media, mostly Instagram class of well, I, I think no matter what thing God has asked people to do, you know, and I call that their assignment, whether that is, you know, responsibility at their job or, or or serving in their neighborhood or serving in their apartment complex or just, you know, taking care of their family.

00;26;24;14 - 00;26;50;06
Unknown
Like no matter what that assignment is, the more we can find God's joy and and his, he abides in us. Yeah, like first like and live from that wellspring. The the less toxic environments will create. So good. So true. Yeah. The ripple effect is, So I think everyone should pick up your book and that's, I mean, that's that's truly what I think.

00;26;50;06 - 00;27;07;22
Unknown
So I think it'll help all of us. Jesse. Just walk. Just. Yeah. Look a little more like. Jesus. Look a little more like Jesus. That's a good goal, right? That's more like Jesus. Did I. So, I mean, thank you so much for coming on and hanging out with us today. I really, I really loved having you.

00;27;07;22 - 00;27;22;25
Unknown
And, I know you and I can get on some soapboxes about, you know, fame and leadership and, you know, avoiding attachment and stuff. So we'll probably have you back to talk about some of that. All right. I would love that. Thank you for having me I love you, I love what you do. And I'm so glad to be here today.