00;00;36;29 - 00;00;52;09
Unknown
Well, Jim is the author of nine books with a strong focus on maturing. Our religion and our relational skills for leaders. So he's coauthored book the book living from the Heart Jesus Gave You, which is sold over 100,000 copies in 11 languages.

00;00;52;11 - 00;01;20;20
Unknown
And, Jim has published numerous articles, developed four sets of videos and relational leader training called thrive. Which is fantastic. So people should check that out as well. I love that. I love that series. So he's also worked with nonprofit. He has a nonprofit. The intersection of brain science and theology called the Life Model Works, and it is building contagious, healthy Christian communities through equipping existing networks with the skills to thrive.

00;01;20;23 - 00;01;48;23
Unknown
Doctor Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience, and he has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot, Loma, Montreat, Tyndall and so many other places. So Jim is such a pleasure to have you today and I'm so looking forward. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. So thanks for being here. Oh, it's great to be with you and finally discuss the brain with somebody else who likes to think of it in spiritual terms.

00;01;48;25 - 00;02;17;24
Unknown
So we should have fun. We said, I know we will. I know fun is always the goal. For sure. If you can't make it fun, then what's the point? What is the point. I agree. Well let's talk about attachment. For a second. So would you maybe for our audience describe the different types of secure and insecure attachment just to give us a quick grid and orienting, us into what attachment is.

00;02;17;27 - 00;02;45;20
Unknown
Yeah. Well, the basic point of attachment is, do you know somebody who will share experiences with us? And so the insecure attachments are ones that feel like, well, if this, emotion gets very strong, or unpleasant, you know, you're going to dump me. You're gonna move away. Or, on the other end. You don't find me interesting at all.

00;02;45;20 - 00;03;10;26
Unknown
So there's nothing about me that you want to attach with. Or, you know, if I try to get attached to you, get close to you to share an experience. You know, you freak me out, so you know that it's. Those are the insecure kinds. And secure means that, you know, I like you well enough that I'm going to share whatever it is that's going on in your life, and we'll work it out together.

00;03;11;00 - 00;03;38;01
Unknown
So, Yeah. Pretty straightforward. Mostly nonverbal, though. It comes back basically to the look on your face when, you know, you see me or my reactions. It operates very quickly and below the level of consciousness for the most part. Right? We're not even like things are happening inside, and then suddenly we're uncomfortable. But we may not necessarily know why.

00;03;38;04 - 00;03;58;02
Unknown
Yeah, I often think of it not as below the level of consciousness so much as faster than consciousness, because that happens before we get conscious about conscious takes about a fifth of a second, and all this stuff has already happened. So, you know, I don't we're not used to paying attention to ourselves. You know, we'll miss it.

00;03;58;04 - 00;04;25;06
Unknown
So. So I think a lot of people, if they as they become aware of attachment and what that means, what that means for them and what that looks like usually think about it in terms of relationship with their parents. Right. Because it's it's formed when, as we're children in relationship to the caregivers, because not not everybody has parents, but most people don't think about it in terms of their relationship with God.

00;04;25;08 - 00;04;52;23
Unknown
So I'm wondering if you can maybe help us understand how this dynamic of how we feel other people feel about us and how much we trust them and attached to them. How is that related to our, relationship with God? Well, a lot of it has to do with identity, first of all. And, the brain, of a baby who's just been born.

00;04;52;25 - 00;05;24;15
Unknown
If you look at that, a lot of parts haven't even grown yet. So, the brain is among other things, a sort of self-organizing, kind of organism. So it's looking for something to model, to copy and figure out. How do you make this thing work? So the first attachment to our caregivers, to our parents is, you know, let me kind of follow a mine that's bigger than mine, and you show me how this is done.

00;05;24;16 - 00;05;44;05
Unknown
How do you, you know, what does it mean when you have a look on your face? What does it mean when you're, getting close to me? You know, how am I supposed to respond? So it's a duplication in many ways of the minds that you see early on. So the the most people think of that as the only part of attachment.

00;05;44;05 - 00;06;05;29
Unknown
It's, you know, the creating a working identity, which is primarily around how we handle the way we, we feel because babies, you know, don't have a very big working vocabulary. So until they're about a year and a half, they even start using words. So we've kind of figured out who we are by that point and how much we're worth.

00;06;06;01 - 00;06;30;22
Unknown
So this is the the first part of attachment. Second part of attachment. Is to learn how other people think about us and how do they see us, not just who am I? But, you know, how do people think about me when they see me? And obviously, if you never figure out who I am, I can't figure out that other people are are somebody either.

00;06;30;24 - 00;06;58;20
Unknown
So people have a different difficulty with identity, have real hard time with God's identity. You know, what kind of being is this? I can't even see him. And then if you in the second phase of life, kind of the from probably more from age four until maybe 12, you know, how did people see me and how do I interact with them if everyone's mad at me all the time or don't think I'm very important?

00;06;58;22 - 00;07;20;18
Unknown
Then, you know, when we think about God, this mind that we can't see, you know, he's either mad at us all the time or doesn't think we're very important. It sort of casts a shadow on how other minds work. And then when we get to age 12, 13, something like that, we have the second big apoptotic period in the brain where it reorganizes itself.

00;07;20;20 - 00;07;41;13
Unknown
And from that point on, we're looking to become part of a group identity. And that's the part of attachment almost no one thinks about. But now we're part of a group who, and we think about God's people. You know? What kind of people are we going to be from now on? We learn this from other groups.

00;07;41;13 - 00;08;14;13
Unknown
So it's actually the those sources for our ongoing growing conscience. So if all of those things are working well, then we have a way of interacting with God. That makes sense. And if those parts are chaotic, then trying to figure out the God we can't see, stays chaotic in our brain too. Like, I don't know how to make sense of this being, which on the best of days is hard for human beings to do anyway.

00;08;14;15 - 00;08;43;06
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, we get we get to that kind of group identity and value formation just naturally for through biological growth. But it goes through all these places right before that that are foundational in the wiring. Right. So the the foundational wiring of the early infant, toddler years, you know, and I think about, people who have insecure environments, right?

00;08;43;06 - 00;09;12;06
Unknown
They're either ignored, neglected, abused, they they can't depend on their caregiver, a caregiver for food and shelter and warmth and comfort and all of those things. And just how much of that is wired into the foundational paradigm of how safe the world is, how how secure they are, you know, their their ability to know themself and then projecting that and thinking about God in the same way.

00;09;12;14 - 00;09;35;21
Unknown
Right. Because if that's the way that you encounter the world, why would why would God be any different than every other experience that you've had? So yeah, John goes so far as to say in his book, the book, the, you know, first John, his epistle, not his gospel, but he said, if you can't love and that's really the Greek word for attachment.

00;09;35;23 - 00;10;00;01
Unknown
If you can't be attached to people, you do see, how can you claim to be attached to God who you can't see? So it's sort of his presumption, and he's actually the disciple of attachment, you know, the the one who was most attached to Jesus. And he's basically saying, you know, if we can't make the system work with people, you're not going to make it work with God.

00;10;00;01 - 00;10;26;14
Unknown
That won't be true. There. And so that's where it starts getting interesting. You know, that overlay between the two of them. Because what do you do when people that have proven to be completely unreliable? Right. Which they inevitably do because they inevitably are right. So do you think that we can be more attached to people because we can see them than we are to God?

00;10;26;14 - 00;10;49;07
Unknown
Or do you think the way that we relate to people is an expression of the way that we think about that? I mean, like, is that a chicken and egg conversation or which do you what do you think? That definitely is a chicken and egg conversation. I've tried for 30 years to predict because I've sort of partnered with God, as I see it, to help people develop better attachments.

00;10;49;09 - 00;11;14;05
Unknown
And I have so far been completely unable to predict whether God is going to improve the attachment directly from his end, so that people attach better with other human beings. Or is you going to help have people actually attach better to other human beings, that you understand him more? And which one is going to do? I have found absolutely no way to predict but that he does both.

00;11;14;05 - 00;11;35;03
Unknown
I find 100% predictable and he moves back and forth and it's like, okay, we've done something here and I'll practice it with people or, you know, learn something with people, not come practice it with me. And so I see it's a very, permeable, you know, whichever one you need is the one that God's going to pick.

00;11;35;05 - 00;12;01;27
Unknown
So, that the difference between chicken egg you, you're saying which, which one actually starts the process? And, with God, that's. Yeah, he could start at either end and he'll move. He'll work on both sides of it. So. So maybe more like a seesaw. Like he's just always. Yeah. Making ground, helping us.

00;12;01;29 - 00;12;27;21
Unknown
That's the best I could observe. I love that it gives us all hope. Because the answers than just. Yes. Right. Yes. Right. Oh. Awaits. Yeah. Practice it with people and ask God about it is you know the two sides of it. I love that. So if we're thinking about being disciple makers in our tweet, let me step back for a second.

00;12;27;24 - 00;12;57;14
Unknown
Like 50% of people's sociologically and, and developmentally don't get out of the groupthink space. Right. They they the biologically mature that far. And and then they're there and it's and it's okay. It's a comfort zone. That's where you hang out. Yeah. And so the group identity of how we teach, who we teach each other that God is and who we teach each other that we are and how God thinks about us.

00;12;57;16 - 00;13;29;04
Unknown
And then that's kind of like the, the, the seedbed for disciple making. And so we start to become aware of how we're disciples and each other and, and how we're being discipled because the group think matters now. And, and I'm just wondering, what do you what kind of things can we have in that environment? How can we think about attachment as disciple makers, understanding that people, how we think about God is the first influence of how other people will think about God and how we connect to them.

00;13;29;04 - 00;13;56;24
Unknown
So how can we, how can we use that for our good? Well, here, here's where I would just already sort of challenge your wording a little bit, because thinking about God is not nearly so important in my mind because of what most people think of thinking as conscious thoughts, loving God, or caring about God, or sharing life with God, which many of us don't consider thinking.

00;13;56;27 - 00;14;26;14
Unknown
Although from a brain perspective it clearly is thinking. It's just thinking faster than conscious thought. You know, what we're actually trying to change is how do we care about others in a way that communicates to them how God cares about them? And the as I read the passages about discipleship, they seem to be commands to say, you make a disciple of your own.

00;14;26;16 - 00;14;52;25
Unknown
Most people think of it as make a disciple of Jesus for Jesus. And you kind of omit yourself from that. But the passages seem to say, you know, if it's Jess, just should have just as disciples, and she should be teaching them everything that Jesus taught her, as opposed to, Jess is going to have to make disciples for Jesus.

00;14;52;25 - 00;15;14;20
Unknown
I'm going to try to keep myself out of this loop. I'll just teach him everything he said. But, I won't be that example for them of how Jesus lived. And I think the brain is waiting for an example of someone who's going to care about me. Now, the problem here is really the Second Great Awakening.

00;15;14;22 - 00;15;37;14
Unknown
Came along in the church and all. We've decided that salvation is just making a decision on, discipleship is making a second decision that we're just going to be obedient. So we just have to give you the rules now, and, you, you know, line up and do it. But, if discipleship is attachment, all attachments are permanent.

00;15;37;16 - 00;16;03;15
Unknown
So once I form an attachment to you, the brain has no delete function for attachments. It's a permanent non replaceable relationship. So an attachment with you can't be replaced by an attachment to somebody else. I can add an attachment to somebody else. But the way I explain it is, you know, I've met a lot of people in the world, you know, a lot of, women.

00;16;03;15 - 00;16;23;07
Unknown
And if someone was to tell them, tell me that any of these wonderful people, was my mother, my brain would go, no, it isn't. You know, my mother is my mother. And you may be a wonderful person. You may even be a good mother. But you're not my mother. And, you know, maybe I'll add a second mother.

00;16;23;07 - 00;16;49;15
Unknown
But you'll be mother number two, not mother number one. That's it. They're not replaceable. They're not interchangeable. You know, a dentist is interchangeable. Like. Okay, well, dentist so-and-so's gone. The new dentist is in. He'll do his job. We try to do church that way. You know, the pastor's interchangeable. We just, you know, swap, swap him out or her out for another good speaker or whatever it is that we happen to think makes a pastor.

00;16;49;17 - 00;17;15;01
Unknown
But a discipleship, if it means I'm making a lifelong attachment to you, means that I'm committed to sharing life with you and showing you how God does it. And who, by the way, that God is a, you know, committed to sharing life with us? I sometimes think it's not a great idea on his part, but, you know.

00;17;15;03 - 00;17;39;00
Unknown
So, I mean, I love the I will I love, love, love, love the way that we're talking about this. Because like, even Martin Buber talked about how the in the I thou relationship, the only way we know ourself is in the dynamic of the relationship with the other, which is why God's an entity with a consciousness or a personality or whatever that gets nebulous but not an energy, right?

00;17;39;02 - 00;18;04;06
Unknown
Like a not an unknowable abstract energy, but an actual entity who can care about us back so that we can know ourselves and the brain is actually created right to to work that way. The only way that we know ourselves is in relationship with other people. They, they and and it's how we know ourselves then is how we know them.

00;18;04;06 - 00;18;35;19
Unknown
Right? It's the cyclical, reciprocal kind of dynamic. So if loving God and loving people become instead of thinking about right, like you said, I thank you for this is just demonstrates how long I've been in the religion world and and disconnected from the neuroscience world because it's this those things are very accurate and specific. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Saint Clair a thousand years back was one of the first Christian writers.

00;18;35;21 - 00;18;57;13
Unknown
Was the word she kept using was mirrors. And so, and which is really, you know, even been picked up by neuroscience with the mirror neurons, but, you know, the brain's really not designed to spend a whole lot of time observing itself. And one of the things we can't observe are the things which aren't formed in us yet.

00;18;57;16 - 00;19;26;22
Unknown
So the brain is always looking for a greater mind. Someone who knows more can show us something we don't know yet about ourselves and others. This is this mirroring process. And in that way, we also mirror to each other, because we've got, you know, a couple of observers inside at least. One is, you know, observing our interaction, but another is saying, how does someone else see us?

00;19;26;22 - 00;19;58;21
Unknown
And that's the one where our group identity comes in. And so, we become mirrors for how God sees you, you know, and that it gets pretty complicated because it goes very fast and runs lots of different directions. But on the other hand, rather simple. If my response to you is a bad one, and I'm the one who's been teaching you about God, you know, they say, well, if you're going to be that kind of person.

00;19;58;24 - 00;20;22;05
Unknown
Yeah. I'm not going to have anything to do with you. Then that becomes a pretty good indicator in my brain, at least, that maybe God is going to do the same thing, which is why we also want to have our own interaction with God. But our brain has to learn how to recognize God's thoughts, as separate from all other kinds of thoughts that are running around.

00;20;22;05 - 00;20;50;26
Unknown
And so, again, it's a learning process, which we do by listening to what other people say. Was that a God talk? Well, I had this thought, what do you think of this one? So again, we're exchanging with each other, comparing notes. It's meant to be done in community and we would call it. Right. Which is why and I love what you're saying about how attachments aren't aren't replaceable.

00;20;50;28 - 00;21;11;11
Unknown
So when we do attach to somebody and I think about the youth group or the, you know, that that teenager, that middle schooler who attaches to their youth leader and you leaders have like the shortest list article of anybody in ministry. You know, I think it's right up there with worship leaders. Yeah. So it used to be a year or two.

00;21;11;11 - 00;21;38;14
Unknown
I think it's down to six months, not even not even making it through an academic year like then. They never form an attachment to learn how God sees them from this person that's supposed to do that, you know? And then even pastors, you know, we talk sometimes in pastoral circles or ministry leadership circles. We talk about the the pain of those relationships and how that pain is a sign that we've done something wrong.

00;21;38;16 - 00;22;04;20
Unknown
When, you know, my personal philosophy is of pain is the sign that we've actually loved something, right? It all love. And if we avoid, if we avoid the pain will avoid the love will avoid the attachment. And we'll actually miss the assignment that we actually that God gave us to connect with one another, to mirror and to bond into one another.

00;22;04;23 - 00;22;22;06
Unknown
Yeah. Pain is the main way to miss the kind of life God has for us, because being dead doesn't hurt. Being alive is where all the hurting is right now. So, it's a sign that you're alive. On Earth.

00;22;22;08 - 00;22;49;29
Unknown
And I think moving forward. Right? Dealing with people. So, you know, most people aren't psychologists or neuroscientists. So what advice would you have for the everyday person to grow in their attachment, secure attachment with God? And, and begin with some of that feedback loop of being closer to people, closer to God, closer to people loving instead of thinking about loving.

00;22;49;29 - 00;23;20;00
Unknown
Well, yes. Yeah. Well, the thing that I'm glad about is most people aren't psychologist because, psychologists are basically a lot like dentists. They're replaceable. You know, I'm going to be in your life until you get better. Attachments, however, are not, if you try to do functional attachments, it's always going to turn out badly. So if I am going to try to marry you and turn you into a good husband or wife, I predict a very bad outcome.

00;23;20;03 - 00;23;48;23
Unknown
If I'm going to have relationships with you. Only as long as you change, it's going to be a bad outcome, because, we always feel that conditional love coming our way, and we're going, like, I can't settle with this. What if I blow the conditions? And when I see people trying to do spiritual relationships conditionally, like, well, I'll be your spiritual brother or sister or disciple her up until, you know, you hit the criterion.

00;23;48;26 - 00;24;11;27
Unknown
And then we'll dump you and we'll go get somebody else. These don't produce real maturity either. I mean, they it's a good, maybe educational step. You know, you learn some facts about God and stuff like that, but you don't form character. So, back to your question again, which, what are the practical ways?

00;24;11;29 - 00;24;36;01
Unknown
Well, you don't really want to be around people unless you build joy, and joy is actually more regulated by culture than sexuality. So there's more social taboos about who you can smile at and who you can have joy with. And there are sexual, and so one of the things we have to do is figure out how are we going to safely build joy.

00;24;36;04 - 00;25;01;13
Unknown
Joy actually attracts predators. One of the reasons that children get molested, for instance, is they have high levels of joy and low joy. People go looking for them and to seize the opportunity to, you know, try to take advantage of that. So it's a very, carefully guarded social criteria. But I have families come in for counseling and ask about families.

00;25;01;13 - 00;25;31;08
Unknown
Therefore, I never once had a family say, well, families are for building joy and joy for the brain or the people that are glad to be with me. So if we say, who are the people that God has put in my life, these are my permanent people. How am I going to build joy with them? So then the second question is, well, how am I going to build joy with you if you're, you know, undesirable, you're nasty or somehow else.

00;25;31;10 - 00;25;56;08
Unknown
And now we get to the spiritual life. Because I can't build joy to be with, sinful, degenerate stuff, you know, hurtful stuff. If I'm going to build joy, it's because I'm going to see in you what God is creating. And the joy is bringing out who God meant you to be instead of who you learn to be.

00;25;56;10 - 00;26;07;21
Unknown
And this is the kind of transforming community we have. You know, for instance, Jesus of his 12 disciples, one of them was a thief. Do you remember which one?

00;26;07;24 - 00;26;32;04
Unknown
Judas? Yes, Judas. Right. And what did Jesus give him for a job? He gave him the money holding right. He was the treasurer because Judas saw himself a thief, and so did the other disciples, by the way. And Jesus saw in him a treasure, one who would keep treasures. He could recognize what was valuable, and if only he would take his new identity.

00;26;32;06 - 00;26;51;17
Unknown
You know which Jesus gave him a chance to do. He would have been the most remarkable of all disciples, because he would have gone from being a thief to being a treasure and a treasure keeper. And that's what God does with us. He sees in us. Here's what I'm trying to create. Here's what you've done with it.

00;26;51;17 - 00;27;15;03
Unknown
I mean, Moses, you know, was a leading his people, but he started killing off Egyptians instead. You know, God had to say, that isn't how we're going to lead people to freedom. So there's this ongoing process, you know, in which we build joy with the people God's put in our life. Then we start talking with God about, who do you really mean for them to be and start drawing that out.

00;27;15;03 - 00;27;42;13
Unknown
And that is what sustains that kind of joy. And I always like to suggest to people a very simple exercise, and that is when you're looking and talking to somebody else who God has put in your life, share your face with Jesus. What's the expression on his face? Practice having the same expression yourself. And, because most people don't live in their face at all, you know, they live a couple inches behind their face.

00;27;42;13 - 00;28;01;10
Unknown
They they don't connect with their insula, you know, they put a fake expression on their face. And so they're thinking like, how do I share my face with Jesus? I don't even share it with me. And this becomes, you know, it's a problem to try to work out, find two people that be willing to work on that with you.

00;28;01;13 - 00;28;26;16
Unknown
You know, between the three of you, start sharing your face with Jesus. You know, I, I, even us people do this, you know, look down, think of something you're grateful for. And then how does God respond to that? And when you do that, put that expression on your face and look up at the other people around you and and, you know, just keep looking down and up and down and up.

00;28;26;16 - 00;28;49;28
Unknown
This is a fun little exercise that I invent out of thin air. You trying to put brain science to use, but the every place I go, people really get fascinated once they get over being nervous. In the back of, renovate. You have a, an exercise that I've done at a large conference of going around and singing Jesus Loves You to Each other.

00;28;50;00 - 00;29;16;19
Unknown
And the way that it transformed the room was, was fantastic. And I don't know if they remembered anything we taught them, about the topic. It was just an awakening exercise to create connection so that they could then learn and but I like I said, I don't know if they remembered anything we talked about. I mean, ideally they did something, but they definitely remembered how it made them feel.

00;29;16;21 - 00;29;39;26
Unknown
And, the connection that they had with one another. So yeah. Back of renovate. You've got some fantastic, exercises in there. So I like doing them myself, which is a good sign of, you know, it's a good exercise right there. And you can bumble at all these things. That's the wonderful thing about the brain. You can bumble at it and learn while you're going along.

00;29;39;26 - 00;30;01;09
Unknown
No one has to be an expert on it. Right. Because then that'll shut down learning. Actually, when we think we're an expert. Like, I got this. Exactly. So. Well, I think the more exercises we have to connect people to their insula and to their social emotions, the more, I think the healthier will be with ourselves and with one another.

00;30;01;09 - 00;30;22;08
Unknown
So, tell us a little bit about what you're working on next. Well, I'm in the process of finishing up a book on enemy mode, which is how the brain starts reacting as soon as I think that you're not on my side. So we don't think of others. You know, we're too nice of a people to have enemies.

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;47;14
Unknown
But actually, quite frequently, we do feel like someone's not going to be on our side. And the brain then begins to distrust and treat them basically like an enemy, though we wouldn't label them that. And we usually do that mostly with our families. So, you know, soon as they get on the wrong side of us or we don't feel they're helping us enough or whatever it is, so runs around in families, runs run churches, runs around culture.

00;30;47;16 - 00;31;12;24
Unknown
I notice, for instance, if I'm talking to somebody, that as soon as I'm waiting for them to just be quiet so I can tell them what I'm thinking, I'm already feeling sort of enemy modish with them and, right now, something like 60 to 70% of people that someone in their family, that they're alienated from, they can't talk about certain topics and things like that.

00;31;12;24 - 00;31;40;14
Unknown
So it seems to be spreading like a weed. And the question is, how do you get yourself out of it? Because the brain will get into enemy mode in a fraction of a second. It's not preventable. We're going to feel someone's not on our side. But then how are we going to, restore the relationship when it starts going wrong and I actually set out to try to write the answer to that before I knew it.

00;31;40;16 - 00;32;04;25
Unknown
It's like, well, we need to have an answer. But I watch people having fights over Covid masks and going, I don't really know what to do about this. How do I intervene? What you I can see what went wrong, but you know, what's the answer to that? And if that's what Jesus means by, loving your enemies and returning blessing for cursing, then it should be the lead characteristic of what Christians do.

00;32;04;25 - 00;32;36;06
Unknown
Intuit. Lovely and well. And I actually found myself being very bad at it, so I had to write a book to to see if I could find out. You know, how do we teach people to love their enemies? The way the brain learns these things? That's one of the things I like about what you do. You're always trying to say, how do I teach people the way the brain learns and, you know, it's been sort of puts, like, easier to work with the biology than against it.

00;32;36;09 - 00;32;58;23
Unknown
That just seems so hard and impossible. Yeah. And it really puts a new light on things we've always known. It doesn't really change any of the truths in scripture, but it makes some of them pop, you know, and I look at it like whoa. So that's why that's important. So, right. Because I'm working. I don't think God made us.

00;32;58;26 - 00;33;26;17
Unknown
And he was like, oh, that brain is just so hard to work with. I wish I would have done something differently. Like, I think he made us the way he did on purpose. So there must be some good reason for it. Right? It must be for us the way the created us the most so far. I figured it for me is that, you know, Jesus knew at the time of creation he was going to be having to live in and operate one of those human brains.

00;33;26;19 - 00;33;50;02
Unknown
And if I was going to put myself in, you know, some kind of a narrow, confined space like a human brain, I'd be pretty fussy about how I designed it. So, I think it's must be a masterpiece. We just don't run it very well. The other thing I think about, because I totally think about that, too, is I think about that Jesus lives in eternity, forever now with a human brain.

00;33;50;04 - 00;34;16;03
Unknown
So there is a fully redeemed version of a human brain without it not being human anymore. Right? So I want that brain mind, the one I want to go there. That's I think why part of communion is, this is my body. The body includes the brain. And I was thinking of, Young Frankenstein movie, you know, where they have the abnormal brain.

00;34;16;05 - 00;34;35;06
Unknown
Yeah. And they, you know, they make that one alive. Like, what would happen if my abnormal brain, the one I run with all that time was for eternity. Like, no, don't don't stick me in that mess. You know that. We we want the, you know, his body, his brain. We want, you know, give me one of those.

00;34;35;09 - 00;34;56;21
Unknown
Right. The mind of Christ actually being a holistic thing. Yeah. Yeah. Show me how to do it right. Oh my gosh. Well when does your book come out. It should. It's escaping enemy mode should be out. And beginning in November. Oh my gosh so soon. So soon. Well Jim, thanks so much for being with us today.

00;34;56;21 - 00;35;18;09
Unknown
I really appreciate having you and, everything that you're doing and everything that you've done for. So, like, you, you are the pioneer. We're all standing on your shoulders and walking in your wake since you've been out here doing this for about 20 years. So thank you. Thank you for living that life well, I've thought of it pretty much as gathering the people who want to solve the same problems I do.

00;35;18;09 - 00;35;37;28
Unknown
And so I don't know about gathering, you know, I sort of feel like a scout in front of a wagon train, you know, like, well, I'm trying to look for this, but with without the wagon train, what's the point in scouting? So thank you for being someone who's really added, a great deal to what I hadn't even scouted yet.

00;35;38;02 - 00;35;51;15
Unknown
So, well, we're all we're all pioneering, right? Just you. So. All right. Thank you for having me on the program. I love it. Thanks, Jim.