00;00;00;00 - 00;00;18;25
Unknown
So I'm excited to introduce you guys to another female neuro theologian brain faith type of person. so a little bit of background about Jenna is that she's an associate professor of counselor education and the director of the Lewis Henderson.

00;00;18;28 - 00;00;49;00
Unknown
Oh, is it Wesson? Dorf? Yep. Wesson Dorf center of Christian Ministry and Vocation at Seminary of the Southwest in Austin, Texas. So she's a licensed professional counselor, licensed marriage and family therapist, and a supervisor with an emphasis on systemic therapies, which consider the whole person and design interventions tailored to each person's uniqueness. Because we are Imago day incarnate, we were pieces of God, come to life.

00;00;49;02 - 00;01;11;15
Unknown
And I think that's fantastic. So what I what we want to talk to about today is a special kind of conversation that I've had with God and that you've had with God and separately. But we've I've never compared notes with anyone about this conversation. And so I want to I want to share and, hear what you have to say.

00;01;11;18 - 00;01;34;25
Unknown
And so I'm wondering if you can give us just a little bit of background and tell us how you came to the place where you started thinking about Jesus being a human and the very real consequence of what you and I study. But living life with a human brain and living in eternity with the human brain. So Jesus, with the human brain, how did you start to come to think about that?

00;01;34;25 - 00;02;15;01
Unknown
And like, tiptoe into that space of of wonder and revelation and intrigue? Oh my gosh. Well, I'm just like, I'm pausing on that phrase of like, how we're like, a reflection of Imago day and, and the incarnation. And so I'm going to go backwards in order to go forward to answer your question, which is to say that I, I have just had a deep interest in faith and theology because I had a profound experience with God when I was about 12 years old and my, my parents divorced.

00;02;15;01 - 00;02;40;29
Unknown
My mom was a single parent school teacher of three young kids, and we just went through some hard years. And, this sweet little neighborhood church is where I first just started reading the Bible and the stories of Jesus and had just some encounters with God that I really couldn't explain. Late at night in my bedroom, praying by candlelight, reading the stories of Jesus.

00;02;40;29 - 00;03;12;03
Unknown
It was just so simple and, the love and the companionship that I felt helped helped me. I really, had the felt sense that I wasn't alone and really changed my experience as a teenager of navigating those difficult situations. So I since and I was constantly trying to understand that theologically and read other authors who seem to have had a similar experience with God, with the stories of Christ.

00;03;12;05 - 00;03;44;15
Unknown
And then, I moved into some evangelical circles and Southern Baptist circles. I was married to a Southern Baptist pastor, for a couple decades, more than two decades. And, I took a deep, deep dive into that understanding of what was happening on the cross and what salvation means, which, as I understood it, meant that, that forgiveness has to be purchased with a death, with violence.

00;03;44;15 - 00;04;28;01
Unknown
That's how I always understood the story. and, I've, I think it's, a way to explain my theological journey over these last, 30 to 40 years has been trying to reconcile my experience of God in my bedroom when I was 12, and then that the story of what was happening on the cross as as I inherited that story and thinking about, God requiring violence or a death was always something kind of in the corner of my eye when I would pray or when I would relate to that image of God.

00;04;28;01 - 00;04;59;02
Unknown
And I just couldn't reconcile it. I just couldn't, I didn't know how to, I couldn't fully Jesse. I couldn't fully bodily relax. Yeah. In that relationship. Right. Because you'd be you'd be primed for threat. I mean, because it's right there in the corner. Yes. but I understood the way that that particular theological story hangs together with a lot of logical consistency.

00;04;59;04 - 00;05;29;06
Unknown
And I, and I'm deeply committed to the scriptures, every part. And so it really wasn't until, around 2018 that I met someone. I ended up sitting next to a theologian, James Allison, at a dinner party here in Austin at this sweet little urban farm that's kind of back in my neighborhood. And, we were just, eating a really simple meal from the garden, and and there were twinkle lights.

00;05;29;06 - 00;05;50;08
Unknown
There were, like, crazy geese going wild in the background. And just this sweet gathering of friends. And, James Allison had flown in from Spain, and I didn't know him, but I had read a little bit of his writing, and I did understand that he had a different understanding of what was happening on the cross. And the core of that was incarnation.

00;05;50;08 - 00;06;26;12
Unknown
So going back to what you said about incarnation and, that that notion that if if Jesus was God in a body like ours, then, number one, we can look to Jesus to learn everything about God that God wanted us to know him and number two, that then there's something salvation, all salvific, was happening on the cross in that revelation of of who God is and how nonviolently Jesus responded to everybody in his life.

00;06;26;12 - 00;07;01;23
Unknown
And then all the way through death. And so I, I just started, I had started wondering what God was hoping we would understand, like what was God trying to communicate and what would be the impact in on our bodily experience. And so if salvation because like, you know, as a neuroscientist, like when we were talking about things like healing or growth or maturing, we're talking about actual rewiring, neural pathways changes, physical change, physical changes, anatomical change.

00;07;01;26 - 00;07;24;15
Unknown
And so I started to really wonder what was God hoping that impact would be on our brains and bodies, on our nervous system? Like, for instance, if nonviolence is a hope that would flow from our encounter with the Christ story, that we would somehow be transformed into and like an expanded capacity to love our enemies nonviolently and to respond to threat nonviolently.

00;07;24;15 - 00;07;48;22
Unknown
I was like, I can't do that. I, I know I'm telling you right now, if someone is threatening my child, I will not. I don't have the capacity to respond nonviolently. And so what? What piece of salvation am I not understanding? Then? Was it those were just questions I was going to ask? And how did Jesus do that?

00;07;48;22 - 00;08;12;12
Unknown
Like how did he win in the in the Garden of Gethsemane when he's being arrested? And, you know, there's this, person who works with the high priest and he, is coming with the sword. And Jesus's friend Peter slices off the man's ear. And Jesus is like, oh, no, no, no, no, that's not what we're doing here.

00;08;12;12 - 00;08;34;03
Unknown
And like, he reaches out and heals the man's ear like he's like, here, here's your ear back. And I was like, what is happening in Jesus's brain and nervous system that allows him the presence of mind in that moment when he's under threat. He understands what that means. His friend is freaking out. There's blood. This man's ear has just been cut off.

00;08;34;03 - 00;08;55;26
Unknown
And Jesus is like, so in his body, in his frontal lobe, with all cylinders firing. So that was the primary question. So anyway, I'm saying I arrived this night at this dinner party, and I sat down next to James Allison, who I didn't know, but I had read a little bit of his work and I started talking with him.

00;08;55;26 - 00;09;32;06
Unknown
But what really intrigued me was I started to learn his story. and he and I just started to understand. He's been through so much pain, so much pain. And, and he his story is online and people can read about it. But what piqued my interest as a therapist and from a neuro biological standpoint, is the forgiveness and love and peace and lightheartedness that was flowing from James when, I was listening to him talk about his response back to the people that had injured him so deeply.

00;09;32;09 - 00;10;05;20
Unknown
I thought, that defies neuro biological expectations. Like, I don't understand how your system is responding the way it is. And it reminded me of Jesus. And I was like, I want to understand you better, your theology better. And I said, I just started me on this full path of going back and listening to the scriptures through the ear piece of brain science, asking these questions and and really praying and trying to ask God like, what is it really?

00;10;05;20 - 00;10;30;20
Unknown
You were hoping we would understand through this story, and what were you hoping it would have on us? So I'm going to pause there because I imagine there's maybe some overall overlapping interests or questions. Just what I know about you, Jesse. And yeah, where your faith journey has taken you. I would I'd love to just hear your yeah, your reflections on some of that go.

00;10;30;21 - 00;10;59;05
Unknown
I mean, I was just captivated. So I'm just, you know, I'm just enthralled and listening. but I, I, I got into the, the thought pattern kind of the same way I, I had, a pretty traumatic, sort of very traumatic childhood and have been doing, been in therapy, you know, for, for a good, a good number of years let's, you know, maybe 20 and just wanting to know what, what healing, healing and wholeness look like for me.

00;10;59;08 - 00;11;22;28
Unknown
because I don't I don't want to be triggered. I don't want to, you know, PTSD was something I had to get healed from. And, but as, as we were working and I was finding the limitations of my humanity in, like, the things I couldn't choose and the things I couldn't do and the things that like, why is it so hard to, you know, when when the bottom up biology is moving me into an anxiety attack?

00;11;23;03 - 00;11;40;25
Unknown
I have to you know, I have to come in the top down and like, that's so that's so hard, right. And I don't I don't want to be triggered because that means something else has control over me without my permission. And like, I'm too much of a control freak for that. But, which is, you know, part of the therapy stuff too.

00;11;40;28 - 00;12;13;19
Unknown
But, so but I was like, I was starting to feel so. So at one hand, I'm getting healthier and I'm coming against the limitations and just seeing how much work that takes. And on the other hand, I was getting healthier and so my coping mechanisms were being eroded and I started to feel like that was making me more vulnerable as a leader, as a, you know, in positions and responsibilities that I had, I'm like, wow, if I don't respond with power, then, then I'm not going to be as good of a leader.

00;12;13;19 - 00;12;32;19
Unknown
So I actually thought that the health was hurting my leadership long time, long term, you know, and that it was going to make me less capable of being a leader. Listen, the enemy was like all in there trying to, like, spin it. And I was yelling at God. I'm like, you're making me less adaptive. Because I have less coping mechanisms.

00;12;32;19 - 00;12;50;19
Unknown
Because I just didn't know who I was on the other side of those coping mechanisms. And I I've learned that and we've we've settled that like I'm actually just as strong. I'm just healthier. So it's better. It's better. But I had so many questions in the process and I felt very limited and I felt very vulnerable and exposed.

00;12;50;21 - 00;13;22;09
Unknown
And so that that started a conversation of like the like looking to Jesus as the example of healthy without coping mechanisms and yet also limited by the actual biology of threat response, by the actual biology of unlearning and and learning, you know, so so I started being like, okay, so Jesus lives with the human brain. He lived he lived successfully with the human brain like like what's about that?

00;13;22;09 - 00;13;44;12
Unknown
So I can't just lean back oil. I'm only human in a way that gives excuse. But like, how did he do that? And then for me, the follow up thought was he lives forever with a human brain. Like forever in eternity. Jesus exists with a human brain and what does that mean? What does that mean? Like, how does he think about time?

00;13;44;12 - 00;14;09;03
Unknown
How does he think about attachment? Like how does he think with this, this, you know, 8 pounds of, you know, cortical tissue that we have extended? And how does that handle eternity like, I don't know. Anyway, there's no answers for that. I just get lost in the wonder of it. but it made me feel more seen and more connected to more permission from my humanity.

00;14;09;03 - 00;14;30;20
Unknown
But at the same time, that there was, there was a there was a way to be healthy and successful in taking apart the cope, the unhealthy coping mechanisms and leaning into full trust. And that's what I started to see. I started to see Jesus, who fully relied on God. He didn't have coping mechanisms. He actually fully trusted.

00;14;30;20 - 00;14;54;10
Unknown
He lived moment by moment in this place of abiding, which now made more sense than when it was a top down, kind of like exercise of will. So I don't think we will ourself into much. So I don't actually I don't actually believe in free will. I not too much about brain science, but I but I do think that we can choose reactions once they start.

00;14;54;11 - 00;15;19;00
Unknown
We have a little bit of management there, but it was just interesting to me to see how much Jesus rested in the protection and the direction of the father. And so I just wanted to yeah, lean into that and ask those questions. So, I mean, but that's kind of how it's impacted my life. Like, how is it how has it impacted the way that you see Jesus or how you see yourself?

00;15;19;02 - 00;15;55;04
Unknown
Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm resonating with so many pieces of your story that you just shared, including the piece where like right at the moment where we are maybe having something rewired in us, like, you're talking about this getting healthy process that you then worried was going to, diminish your power as a leader. And, I can just relate in so many ways where we're right at that threshold and it feels like, well, it feels like a death.

00;15;55;04 - 00;16;14;17
Unknown
It feels like something also valuable and important is going to have to be sacrificed or is going to have to die. And we're not, like, sure that it's going to be resurrected in any meaningful way or or I mean, there's a reason why why, why we chose that, even if we can don't remember what it was like. There was a benefit.

00;16;14;17 - 00;16;34;10
Unknown
Right. And so now that benefit is going away. And we're like, I don't know, I don't know if I can do this. Exactly. And so what I hear in that little bit of your story and I live at some point to hear more though, is like that on the other side, what we discover is that, number one, everything that dies is resurrected.

00;16;34;10 - 00;16;59;07
Unknown
And number two, there's a true sacrifice is not required. Like, if it if it had to be sacrificed, it wasn't a value to begin with. Like, it's not the real thing. And so, who you just like? Yeah. You said you just a lot, but it I don't know that, like, we just have to go through it and, like, experience it badly and see on the other side, but then come back to tell people about it.

00;16;59;07 - 00;17;10;17
Unknown
So I'm glad you share that little part of your story. how has it impacted me? Well. Oh, goodness. So,

00;17;10;19 - 00;17;39;19
Unknown
So certainly, I, I was very aware of my limitations of my neurobiology and how relating to the image of God, where my body was still kind of responding with a threat response was really not helping me, ground and relax and access like all that fully, that full capacity of the frontal lobe and like, empathy and creativity and choice in those moments that mattered.

00;17;39;19 - 00;18;09;24
Unknown
And so, I was really curious. I just wanted to learn more from people whose theology did actually produce that in Jesus. James Allison and a few other people I just really wanted to understand, like, how are you relating to God and what are you experiencing in your body when you do? And, I, when I went back through then and listened to the scriptures also and stories of people throughout the, the Hebrew Scriptures and then the New Testament.

00;18;09;27 - 00;18;42;19
Unknown
I also had that same recognition that you had like some things happening for them relationally that is regulating their nervous system to the degree that even when they're facing a threat, they can retain access to their frontal lobe and make a choice, to respond nonviolently, to respond creatively, to respond with compassion. so I, read all through the scriptures from Genesis, all, all the way through the epistles.

00;18;42;19 - 00;19;31;07
Unknown
And that ended up being the conclusion that was the, the, the theme that emerged was trust. Trust defined as a neuro biological phenomenon where certain neurotransmitters are released in the brain that have a warm, soothing, pleasant, calming effect on the body. But trust is related to perception. And so this is also what really emerged in the. So this is the brain in the spirit, the book that I ended up writing through the, and it just goes chronologically from Genesis all the way through the stories and, because trust, is like a thermostat for the body, and it's telling and the body tells the truth.

00;19;31;07 - 00;19;54;28
Unknown
The body doesn't lie. It's telling us the truth about how we're perceiving someone or something as either trustworthy or untrustworthy. And that may or may not be rooted in reality. But it's telling us something true about our perception, right? So when we're perceiving God, our body is an indicator as to whether or not we're perceiving God is trustworthy or untrustworthy.

00;19;54;28 - 00;20;18;20
Unknown
And I was constantly trying to do mental gymnastics to tell my body, no, this image of God is trustworthy. My body was saying, I am not perceiving God that way. I'm not perceiving God as trustworthy. And so, when I read the stories of Jesus with this idea of incarnation, that when we look to Jesus, we're perceiving God accurately.

00;20;18;20 - 00;20;40;16
Unknown
So let that update our image of God all through the story of Christ Jesus never was violent, never punished anyone. He forgave freely when the paralytic was lowered down on the mat through the roof, and Jesus looked at him and said, your sins are forgiven today. And everyone else in the room was like, what does he say? That's blasphemy.

00;20;40;16 - 00;21;08;11
Unknown
Who can forgive sins and do like I can? I just did, and nobody else's legs had to be broken for that. Nobody has to offer in his place. It's like. It's almost like Jesus is saying, you have always already been forgiven. Yeah, yeah. See that, perceive it and allow that to change your sense of yourself, your neurobiology, maybe your physical anatomy, you know, who knows.

00;21;08;11 - 00;21;40;17
Unknown
But it's perception is the change in perception that and that releases the trust response when we are actually in the presence of someone trustworthy. And so I will tell you, I will now be working that out theologically. And in an embodied way for the rest of my life. But it's already having an impact on my relationships, like the way I the freedom that I feel to respond to threat.

00;21;40;20 - 00;22;10;03
Unknown
Yeah. My relationships. So, yeah, very like my Dallas Willard says that the measure of Christianity or you're the measure of your Christ likeness is how quickly you can move into enemy love. not there's no theology test, all right? Because we'd all have different answers. And so, but there's there's that, that there's no other test but that and that demonstrates an attachment to God that's that's secure.

00;22;10;03 - 00;22;34;11
Unknown
And, you know, it's interesting to me, though, about trust is that, you know, as a psychologist, there's the the paradigm. And I agree with it. I hold it right now is that trust is something that only comes on the other side of conflict, that that before conflict, we just have agreement. But after we have conflict and we repair with one another, and then we believe that that relationship is strong enough to handle conflict, then we have trust.

00;22;34;14 - 00;22;58;17
Unknown
So, so trust isn't it's about connection that has been tested in order to have trust. And and it just makes me wonder, you know, I can point to all those things in my life, but but where did Jesus get tested? Like how did how did he have that? Like, like I've spent a lot of time struggling with faith, you know, working with God, asking him hard questions of only a couple of which he answers.

00;22;58;17 - 00;23;27;04
Unknown
But like, it's been such a it's been such an overt, explicit journey. And I look at the life of Jesus and I'm like, where did he work that out? Like so I don't know I don't know, what do you think? Well, I, I feel said to like you said. So it's a like a kindred kinship with me because I think we just asked similar questions and like, we've been on very different journeys, but, just come to some really similar conversation.

00;23;27;04 - 00;23;54;07
Unknown
So when I think about Jesus's time in the wilderness and you know, where he was wrestling with, you know, the the image of Satan, which also represents just all the messages, like all the messages growing up, all that. So I think wrapped up in that image is everyone Jesus knew and, was, you know, who were trying to shape or tell him how to be human.

00;23;54;07 - 00;24;25;09
Unknown
And so he's, he's wrestling with trust out there in the desert, and he's hungry. So one of the questions is like, do I have enough food? Like, to survive? Can I wait patiently and not force a situation, but wait until it's the right time to eat? the, can I have the influence, the positive, loving, good, nonviolent influence I want to have on the world?

00;24;25;09 - 00;25;00;07
Unknown
Can I have it as just who I am? Is that enough? Or do I need this, like higher authority, power, glory? So I should, you know, become a ruler of cities and kingdoms or or, I don't really know what. When he was tempted to throw himself off of the cliff, if that was possibly a moment of depression and suicidality, where he's like, this whole thing is too much like, I don't know that I want to sign up for this, or if he or if it really was about like trying to do something miraculous that people would say, I don't know.

00;25;00;07 - 00;25;25;17
Unknown
But all of that I see and pressure on or shortcut a shortcut something. Yeah. So but each time it's his relational connection, like you're calling attachment with God that I see as coming in and regulating and him being like, no, I'm okay. Like, I have what I need. I'm hungry now, but I know I'll eat at some point.

00;25;25;19 - 00;25;55;05
Unknown
I'm scared now, but I know I'll be okay. And I can have the influence, the loving, positive influence on the world that I want to have just as me. Like I'm enough and, what a powerful. Like you're saying, it's about connection, disconnection and reconnection. So he's disconnecting from God, and that's stressful. And I think that's important. A piece of this conversation, Jesse, because stress is, necessary.

00;25;55;05 - 00;26;21;12
Unknown
A little bit of stress is necessary. We don't know, you know, anatomically like we don't rewire pathways without a little bit of stress, right? Because there's not a reason to spend the energy to do it. If it's not, if it ain't that broke, right? We don't fix it. It has to be really rote. So if there's too little stress in our lives or in our bodies, our relationships will stagnate.

00;26;21;14 - 00;26;46;07
Unknown
if there's too much stress, will shut down, will overwhelm. So we need just the right amount. And you mentioned time earlier, like, how did Jesus and his human brain navigate time and and what does that mean after death and eternity, perhaps like when we're living in timelessness. And I'm very fascinated by that question. Who knows. But I do wonder if time is the thing.

00;26;46;07 - 00;27;21;04
Unknown
Like if, if the if our struggles as living and human bodies all goes back to time, because time is the thing that is the number one discrepancy between us and God, or created creation and non, non created existence. Time is the one variable that is incongruent between and time equals stress. Like time is change and space movement which requires energy which requires stress.

00;27;21;04 - 00;27;43;21
Unknown
But in the just right Goldilocks zone of stress, we feel at our best, like our absolute best, we are growing and flourishing and, learning and making new connections with just the right amount of stress. And I do wonder if that's perhaps how God set it up from the beginning is, yeah, relationally to regulate our stress to that just right zone.

00;27;43;21 - 00;28;04;22
Unknown
And we just feel it. So we're so sensitive to when we move out of that just right zone. and all the problems that we want to solve are caused, like when we move one way or the other out of that just right stress zones and. Yeah, and trust is really what keeps us in that just right zone.

00;28;04;24 - 00;28;39;07
Unknown
Right. Because it releases enough of the the oxytocin hormone as people as, as a, the nerds out there will enjoy. But the, the I trust you hormone is everyone else called it neurotransmitter. so what do you think that how do you how does this change the way that you think about disciple making and discipleship? Like if, if that connection with God is to help us regulate so that we can, we can be fully human, we can and we can be fully ourselves.

00;28;39;09 - 00;29;01;13
Unknown
And that that's all positive. then then what do you how do you apply this or think about this then when when you're helping people think about being a disciple maker or coming alongside someone else in their journey? I mean, we we each have our own journey. And I think sometimes we can be I can be very consumed with my own journey of growth and connection to God and everything.

00;29;01;13 - 00;29;26;29
Unknown
And I think of that as a, a very a be kind of, tether and dynamic, very private. But, you know, you and I both know that the, the human brain is actually a social it's a social thing. Like, the humans are social creatures. We were created like herd creatures. And so there's not there's not a part of our humanity that exists apart from connection to other, people.

00;29;26;29 - 00;29;45;28
Unknown
So. So I always try to think about this stuff in discipleship, in terms of disciple making. How am I walking with somebody else in this space, too? What am I encouraging someone else? what am I pointing out? Or what am I? You know what? Bad stuff or bad lies of I talking them out of? Like it's okay to go to therapy.

00;29;46;01 - 00;30;15;13
Unknown
Being healthy doesn't make you less qualified. Like, you know, the Holy Spirit told me that. But, you know, now I can tell it to somebody else out loud, because. Can I just pass that message along? But yeah. How about for you? Yeah. Well, and smiling because one of the things I've really enjoyed from the time as we've talked, Jesse, is just like how practical all your questions are, like how you're really and interested in the lived experience.

00;30;15;13 - 00;30;49;08
Unknown
Like how does this work itself out relationally in our bodies? And, I didn't grow up with that idea of discipleship. That's not what I was taught. That's not how I was discipled for, you know, several decades. And, in my evangelical tradition, there were, these four spiritual loss tracks that were printed and dropped off at bus stops around college campuses and left as tips or left to really sad, sad waitstaff.

00;30;49;10 - 00;31;24;25
Unknown
Yeah. And so, there's a there's a graphic in the For Spiritual Eyes tracks that talks about, like facts, faith and feelings or faith facts and feel. Anyway, feelings is always the caboose. And it's like, don't let your feelings drive the train. It'll go off the track. And I think that, it's possible that that teaching has had more of a damaging impact on the ways that churches think about discipleship than anything else.

00;31;24;25 - 00;31;58;26
Unknown
I can think of. in recent decades, the impact for a lot of us was to mistrust the signals that our bodies are telling us, that our emotions are telling us and sort of default to the assumption that, whatever I'm feeling, wanting or desiring is, the truth is probably the opposite of it. Yeah. And, as like a really helpful alternative, I think about, Ignatian spirituality.

00;31;58;26 - 00;32;28;26
Unknown
So one of the contributions of Saint Ignatius is this idea that under the right circumstances, like he calls it consolation, like when we're sort of inclined toward just doing those practices, I think committing to daily practices that kind of like nourish us, like you're talking about, just like, we're being as healthy as we can. Our emotions and our body become more reliable sources of information about what's right for us, what God may be communicating to us.

00;32;28;28 - 00;32;57;28
Unknown
And so, learning to learning to read those signals, learning to discern. I think that's what the what the word discernment really means. and, valuing the information that our emotions and our body is contributing to the bigger picture. It's not the full picture, but it's a really important source of information that we have to learn and train and disciple ourselves to pay attention to.

00;32;58;01 - 00;33;27;18
Unknown
And, yeah, that's, that's where I see your work being really, really important and really impactful. You're contributing something important, I think, to that conversation about discipleship. because thanks, I appreciate that. I mean, just I've just experienced freedom, right? So just I believe that free people, free people, so can pass that along. But I love your book.

00;33;27;20 - 00;33;50;14
Unknown
I love your book the the brain and the spirit and and it just came out, recently. But, you tell some of these stories in there, and I love that you shared some of these stories, but you also, I think you just unpack things in a real beautiful way. And I love how you have, art images, your poetry, when I did the first draft of my book, I also had all that kind of stuff because I'm like, we got to be creative guys.

00;33;50;16 - 00;34;18;02
Unknown
We can't just be didactic, but it didn't make it through the editing process, so kudos on you for somehow getting that through the editing process. I'm kind of jelly right there. I'm just like, your next book, My Life, You're living my best life, and you next will make sure that, oh my God. So I definitely think that, people should should pick it up and and sit with it.

00;34;18;04 - 00;34;55;28
Unknown
you know, Balthasar has been a really great person for me to read, to sit with about the contemplative space and, and people who've had these deep experiences with God. and so he's like, yeah, Hans von Balthasar. But when I read your book, I kind of see some of those experiences not not described from the point of view of a theologian like Balthasar did, but but from the like, if there was somebody else in the room walking and talking with Balthasar, you know, and they were having conversations, you know, what would, what would you pick up and, and so I really, I don't know, I really appreciated your book in that

00;34;55;28 - 00;35;29;24
Unknown
way as well and highly, highly recommend it, to people out there, if people want to know more about you or where to, to read more of the stuff that you're writing or working on, where can they find you? Yeah. So, there's a growing online community on Instagram at The Brain in the spirit. And then the website The Brain in the spirit.com has a number of, just reflections on how this, these conversations connect with other pressing problems that we care about racism and the climate collapse.

00;35;29;24 - 00;36;01;18
Unknown
And, and then some liturgical resources for groups and church communities who want to have these conversations and, use this in their discipleship. I love that, I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, it's been so, so fantastic to talk with you and, and have this conversation and just explore the wonder of, I don't know, being and being an in, a word incarnate, a piece of the imago day incarnate.

00;36;01;24 - 00;36;23;25
Unknown
And what does that call listen to and. What does that crazy journey look like? So I've just really, really enjoyed having you on and, yeah, it's been such a pleasure and such a pleasure. It's been such a joy to connect with you, Jesse. yeah. Yeah, I'm really excited about the conversations you're hosting. Well, I'm so glad you can be part of a.

00;36;23;25 - 00;36;25;01
Unknown
Makes me so happy.