00;00;00;00 - 00;00;18;18
Unknown
Well, welcome to the conversation. Today I have my special guest, Roland Smith, and we are going to talk today about deconstruction and something we can talk a lot about. But we're going to focus in specifically on, just some awareness we need to have as disciple makers around deconstruction. But

00;00;18;18 - 00;00;32;10
Unknown
for those who don't know you, tell us a little bit about what you do, all of the different things and places that you swim in, because you are actually quite active and busy. So yeah, share with us the the projects that you're part of right now.

00;00;32;12 - 00;00;56;29
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, I think I used to be busy just like all over the place. And so I've finally gotten I've grown up a little bit where I'm busy all in the same stream, maybe. And I think of it in terms of kind of three environments. So I have a staff position, at a church in Colorado Springs, called pulpit Rock church.

00;00;57;01 - 00;01;25;09
Unknown
And, it's right next to a big rock formation that looks like a pulpit, which, you know, is really good for our discussion today. And but in this church is a little bit larger church that wants to shift and has been shifting nationally. It's a real anomaly of a church. And, so we launched a micro church network out of pulpit Rock, which we've been kind of mobilizing and trying to curate, in Colorado Springs.

00;01;25;09 - 00;01;56;11
Unknown
And we just launched a Denver one, ironically, a youth. So, so that's kind of some cool work and that's, that's kind of like a full time type gig. And then, and then, provide, visionary leadership for, for America's, the national director for America. And my job is to just kind of look out ahead and, you know, kind of steer vision and be a national voice for that movement.

00;01;56;13 - 00;02;19;13
Unknown
Which you're, you know, listeners may be familiar with Fords, but, I mean, I've heard of Allen Hirsch and my Frost and people like that, and they're the guys that started that movement. So I do that. And, and then I'm affiliate faculty at Fuller Seminary, so I teach like one class per term, you know, so I don't overload myself on that.

00;02;19;15 - 00;02;42;02
Unknown
But I can see myself teaching more as I get older, so that may be my retirement job, you know, is to is to engage students and seminaries and kind of blow up their idealism, you know, church and, send them out as missionaries. That would be my thing. You know? So blow them up and send them out.

00;02;42;02 - 00;03;01;23
Unknown
I love it love them out. So I mean, that's what we're going to talk about today, right? Deconstruction. Yeah. So I want you to just briefly, talk about the experiment. I think I think that's what you call it is an experiment that you've been running, there. And then we'll kind of define what we each think deconstruction is.

00;03;01;26 - 00;03;44;16
Unknown
Okay. Are you talking about my, my, extra kids I have now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So. So, you know, we were trying to, we my wife and, kitty, we were trying to figure out, like, how do we, you know, how do we engage our neighborhood? It was kind of getting to be a little bit because, Covid feeling like it was post-Covid and and, and so I, I have for a long time I've kind of, I've been like a magnet to people that question the church in faith and things like that, especially twentysomethings and kind of early 30 somethings.

00;03;44;16 - 00;04;10;21
Unknown
And, and so I just kind of put it out on Facebook. Our actually, I started a Facebook group called, Cost Deconstruction Group. So I have a group on Facebook and it's called them. And so several people joined us and pastors joined it. So college students joined it, you know, and so and we don't it's not to sit there and complain.

00;04;10;21 - 00;04;39;05
Unknown
It's to put thoughtful bits, to put thoughtful things up. The usually I find they're doing lists, content, but I'll put content out there that's, you know, that's helpful. And that I think is helpful. And so that was kind of the first thing. And then I put it up, put it on Facebook and I put it in that group, hey, we're going to do a six session study on, what, what the book.

00;04;39;08 - 00;05;08;10
Unknown
So you had a it's a study I'm trying to remember and I titles it, but it's, how how the Bible actually works. I think that's what it's called. And and so I got a few people that were takers and, so it's a real easy resource where you kind of watch a 15 minute video and then, you know, there's some questions the, the P, provides or you could do your own.

00;05;08;17 - 00;05;33;08
Unknown
And so we just started with that. And what, what I found were in these mainly 20 somethings, Was a mixture. It was a mixture of where they were now with like, you know, if you ask them, what do you think about a church? What do you think about faith? What do you think about Jesus? Way back to Shannon.

00;05;33;10 - 00;05;59;10
Unknown
All those kind of questions. They're in a mixture of different places, but they all stemmed from PTSD and incidents, and some of them were singular things that you could point to or a handful of things that they can actually name. It wasn't just, I mean, these weren't and thought for kids that were just like, I don't think church is cool.

00;05;59;12 - 00;06;38;00
Unknown
They actually had had stuff happen to them and didn't trust. Don't trust the church anymore. And it started them on journeys. So if the church represents Jesus and so then I don't know what I think of Jesus or I think there's still God that loves me, but maybe Christianity's not the best representation of that. And so, there's very much was a connection between the church as the representative of Christ of Jesus.

00;06;38;02 - 00;07;09;29
Unknown
And so they were questionable about Jesus and the theology around Jesus. And so, you know, the sad part of all of this was the, you know, this thing that we see out in culture with people that are going through a quote unquote deconstruction is that it seems like the church institution has been the instigator of their deconstruction or the mobilize mobilizer and my little experiment says, yeah, that's probably true.

00;07;10;02 - 00;07;40;25
Unknown
So, so it's so it's fascinating about deconstruction to me as a, as an, as a developmental neuroscientist, a person who, you know, I, I believe in and love developmental theories, which look at how our, the way that we understand the world changes over time. So the way that we make meaning of relationships and make meaning of truth and and concepts that changes as we grow, experience life, things like that.

00;07;40;27 - 00;08;16;28
Unknown
And there are two different in developmental theories. There are two different main spaces of deconstruction. So the first one being between being a teenager and being an adult, where you deconstruct what the group knows and you come out of groupthink and kind of move into adult. Now, here's what I think. And if you create a values based way of looking at the world, and then you deconstruct out of that when you're older and you have all these negative experiences that kind of accumulate and you're like, okay, well, maybe I don't actually know what I thought I knew, and I'm not as smart as I thought I was.

00;08;16;28 - 00;08;50;09
Unknown
It's not as clear. It's not as black and white. And and that one's a much longer, messier deconstruction. But we, we think about I think, as, people who raise children to be, you know, contributors to society, independent adults, contributors to society. I think we we understand that they have to leave home in some way and make their way in the world and be able to be able to do that right, be able to take care of their own households and pay their bills and have a job and have mature relationships.

00;08;50;11 - 00;09;30;27
Unknown
But as the church, we don't necessarily think about them leaving that same way and and owning their own faith and making meaning of their own faith. And so just like things happen in a family, you know, negative experiences, negative experiences happen in church, too. But the church and and that's a that's a thing that I don't exactly understand why like, doesn't seem to accept or see this paradigm of raising spiritually maturing people to a place where they can have their own understanding of who Jesus is, have their own understanding of God, have their own, you know, worship style, liturgy, theology, stream and choose that like that.

00;09;30;27 - 00;09;59;24
Unknown
Ownership of their own faith doesn't seem to be a goal. I think in the church that they lose, they throw the baby out with the bathwater because there's no one to disciple them through that. So I'm wondering, you know, what do you think about that? Like if you have a different definition of deconstruction or you see the relationship of the church and, and the idea of change in the way that we make meaning and understand our lives, and then the church's role in that.

00;09;59;24 - 00;10;33;17
Unknown
So what do you what do you think about that? Yeah, I have, I mean, I got I have a couple of thoughts on that. I mean, I think that the church, I mean, the quickest way down the rabbit hole, but I mean, I think that the church, you know, when I say the church, I mean, like, you know, the American Western church over the past, whatever, you know, hundred years, it has set itself up for this because, what I mean, kind of what you're talking about, it's not discipling young adults into owning their their own faith.

00;10;33;20 - 00;11;03;19
Unknown
Well, that's not how the the church is built now, let me say, I do think that's how Jesus meant for things to happen, that people go on a journey, discover their pathway with Jesus, and they follow that. And it's kind of messy, you know, messy looking with people kind of crossing in and out. And hey, I've seen you on this path before, you know, and you're kind of you're kind of wandering and coming back in and out and, and you're figuring out what this framework looks like for you to follow Jesus.

00;11;03;19 - 00;11;27;10
Unknown
I think that's the healthy way of doing it. Church is not built that way in the past, and historically, church is built to be a bounded set. You come into our tribe and we're going to tell you what we believe. And if you agree with that, then we're going to invite you into our bounded box through some kind of process.

00;11;27;12 - 00;12;02;08
Unknown
And, you know, if you've been baptized, if you sign a membership covenant, if you serve, if you give, if you attend, then you're kind of part of our tribe. And then you go on Sundays and someone tells you what to believe. And so kids have come up in that system for decades and decades and decades. And so, I am not surprised that in our cultural upheavals right now with the church saying being antagonistic to what young people are feeling, I'm not surprised that the young people are just saying, well, forget you.

00;12;02;08 - 00;12;24;08
Unknown
I'm I'm heading off on my own because I think we've actually set that up, that system, we have provided a place for them to, you know, to vocalize this, to journey this or whatever. And that's why I think when I stick something out on Facebook, like as a little experiment, people actually answer the call because they they do love God.

00;12;24;08 - 00;13;00;22
Unknown
They do love Jesus. They do want a spiritual component of their life. But the church is not providing that. And I'm self critiquing here, you know, because I've been part of church leadership for 25 years. So, so there's that. The other thing I was thinking about while you were talking is, I mean, this could get this could get way only to is I kind of think in terms of like, long term shifts and then these radical, disruptive shifts.

00;13;00;22 - 00;13;27;07
Unknown
Right? And, I mean, this is some work I'm doing in my dissertation right now. And, you know, we all, all of us that have kind of you've studied a lot more learning theory than me, but all of us that have studied learning theory, we kind of know that people that there's a disruptive event that can happen, and then that kind of sends them into a remaking or a reframing of their new pathway.

00;13;27;09 - 00;13;52;05
Unknown
And so I think about myself and the learning shifts I've made over my life that are longer term. And those were healthier because I had a longer, you know, I had a longer runway maybe to do that. So I've kind of so that looks like I've matured. Maybe we use that word. I've matured. You know, some people who some similar.

00;13;52;07 - 00;14;18;01
Unknown
But what would you in for an amen. Yeah, I know what we're doing right now to people that say, oh, I'm deconstructed. We're not doing that to them. What we're doing is we're dive bombing them through a disruption into chaos. And then there are a few people around that are saying, okay, join the conversation on what you're going to reconstruct and what that's going to look like.

00;14;18;03 - 00;14;40;07
Unknown
But man, that angle is so steep. That is painful. I mean, it's painful to the church. It's painful to the people going through it. You know? And yeah, it's just it's just unfortunate. We need more environments where people that say, however you define deconstruction, which I know we're going to do here in a second, but how do we define that?

00;14;40;07 - 00;15;08;25
Unknown
We need more environments to just invite people into that and say, okay, I let's take the steepness of the curve out of this and let's give you some runway to journey with, with God, you know? And that's part of my kind of personal boots on the ground missional following right now. So I kind of feel called to to that and connecting with those kind of sojourners again, you know, they're not they're kind of wandering around.

00;15;08;25 - 00;15;31;15
Unknown
So. Right. I mean, it demonstrates how little the church is set up to make disciples because we can't even we don't have an environment to even walk with them through the questioning, through the hard stuff, through the tearing apart so that we can maintain relationship. Like, for me, you maintain relationship in the deconstructing so that you retain credibility for the reconstructing, right?

00;15;31;15 - 00;15;57;10
Unknown
Because if you abandon them in the deconstructing, they're not going to look to you for answers. They're not going to the words that you carry don't carry, they don't have weight. And so just how little, the environment of the church is set up to walk people through maturation of in, in a developmental, psychologically human way that we, you know, that we define that process of maturation.

00;15;57;10 - 00;16;28;02
Unknown
So any, any tweaks or things or color that you would add to the that the definition of deconstruction. I mean, like I said, I very specifically as a developmental neuroscientist, but I know, I mean, there's meaning to. Yeah, it's, the man it's one of those it's a buzzword. And that madness gets people into trouble. And people that are very big and, you know, okay, I'm going to have to use terms to define terms.

00;16;28;05 - 00;17;01;20
Unknown
You know, people that are maybe more conservative leaning, reformed or Orthodox, they hear the word deconstruction, and they think of people that are walking away from their faith. Maybe I don't see that at all. I mean, I think, I just see it in really practical sense. You know, some people have constructed a paradigm, a way of thinking about something and that is being deconstructed.

00;17;01;20 - 00;17;21;22
Unknown
So when someone says, oh, yeah, I'm a deconstructionist, most people don't say that. They'll just they'll use other terms. I ask a lot of other questions. You know, it leads to other questions. So. So what does that mean to you? So we're what do you think about, what do you think about Jesus? You know, what do you think about God?

00;17;21;22 - 00;17;59;08
Unknown
Where are you in your spiritual life? And, you know, get them to define that. And, you know, with 2 or 3 questions you can usually figure out pretty quick. They've most that I've met have really just deconstructed the need for church institution. Not a leaving of of a spiritual journey or sojourning. Now will say again, because the church, because they see the church as the the church institution, as the representative of Jesus.

00;17;59;08 - 00;18;26;19
Unknown
That's how they were raised. Then they're starting to question that. And so they have a little bit more of, universalist kind of posture, although I don't they wouldn't call it that, but they just they're more open to, You know, how is it that I connect with God? I mean, I had one gal in my group, and she.

00;18;26;19 - 00;18;51;02
Unknown
I mean, just beautiful person. And, I mean, she literally went through, you know, abusive kind of stuff in, in the church and, so she, you know, I asked her point blank, I said, so do you believe there's a God that loves you? And in group one might. And she said, yeah, there is a God that loves me.

00;18;51;05 - 00;19;13;14
Unknown
I'm just not sure that Jesus is the only way to have a relationship with him. So, you know, very dogmatic, you know, doctrinal based folks are going to say, oh, you're a universalist. You're not in our tribe anymore. I see that more as, point in the journey, you know, that she's on. And, and I celebrated that.

00;19;13;14 - 00;19;34;14
Unknown
There's a God that loves you. I'll look at her and say, yes, there is a God that she so for me, deconstruction is just, there is something, something of a paradigm that has been taken down. It may be kind of institutional, maybe theological, and you just have to dig. You kind of have to ask questions and dig for where they are in that placement.

00;19;34;16 - 00;20;17;08
Unknown
So I think if you put a deconstruction group together in your neighborhood or your city or whatever, it is probably going to be mixed with people on different types of journeys. That's what I would say. Yeah, yeah. Because like I said, there's there's a couple different phases of questions and depending on what they were raised with. Right. So if, if you were like this gal was raised with the only example of the kingdom on earth, and the hands and feet of Jesus is the church meaning institution, and then to deconstruct that would be one type versus, well, I don't know if it's Jesus or I don't know if they're even as a god or, you

00;20;17;08 - 00;20;42;10
Unknown
know, the different components that we've made. Part of that essential belief that people were raised with, you know, which part of that, which part of that are they asking questions around? And, you know, one of the things that it always makes me think of is that if if God is taking us on a journey, that that involves questions, because I do believe God is the author of our journey, and I don't think God's afraid of questions.

00;20;42;15 - 00;21;12;11
Unknown
Right. It's we're the ones that are afraid of questions. God is really secure. He's really secure in the journey and his authorship in the answers. But he he walks with us through that journey, and we're supposed to do that with one another. But because we've made, dogma, whatever it is so vital in right belief, the thing that's necessary for salvation, right?

00;21;12;13 - 00;21;35;06
Unknown
It just hurts my heart that we don't teach an idea of kingdom, an idea of God and idea of Jesus that are bigger than some of these boxes, because God seems really secure in whether or not we have the box or take the box apart, like he let some of us have the box, he's okay. If some of us are taking the box apart, like like he seems to be okay in all of that.

00;21;35;10 - 00;21;59;05
Unknown
But but we've constrained that there is only the box. And so when people take that apart, they don't. They just don't have things beyond that to hang on to. They don't have an understanding of a kingdom of God that exists outside of the church, or a Jesus that is relevant and and present and makes a difference in their life apart from a pastoral person in their life.

00;21;59;07 - 00;22;20;25
Unknown
So but those direct representations are what the church is to define itself to. And it makes me think about the Reformation, where the Protestants deconstructed the Catholic Church and all of that. So I mean, to me, I feel like we're going through a similar type of historical revolution about things because usually people deconstructed different points of their life.

00;22;20;25 - 00;22;57;07
Unknown
But like, we're doing it massively as a society. So just that historical thing, I mean, I'll tell you when you think about, well, yeah, I mean, I think we are filmmakers. Yeah. I just gave a little, you know, a little presentation on this to our forge, have leaders at a gathering. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of your listeners probably have heard this or read it, but, you know, it's that 500 year disruption cycle of the church, and you know, there was, you know, kind of the fall of the Roman Empire and, you know, that happened.

00;22;57;10 - 00;23;25;23
Unknown
And then at about 1000, A.D. then you have, well, there's a couple things that happened, but, I mean, the Catholic Church has some really bad popes and they, you know, there's like tons of stuff going on in the church. And then I can't remember the name of the Pope now that, like, pulled them out of that, you know, and, and kind of shifted that around, around that period.

00;23;25;23 - 00;23;52;06
Unknown
And then you also had the, the great schism that happens around that period. And so the Orthodox Church is Eastern Orthodox and Western Church kind of divide. So and then, 1517, you know, so reformation happens and then people are asking, okay, add 500 to that and you're like 2017, 2018 ish. So are we going through another kind of, and I would call it a schism.

00;23;52;06 - 00;24;23;20
Unknown
I mean, what's really interesting is the you know what I'm saying, the bounded box is the that, you know, churches and denominations have what they stood on 20 years ago and said, this is it. I mean, like we have defined exactly what we want to be and what we believe we should be. Well, now denominations themselves are splitting up into different factions because that bounded set is not it anymore.

00;24;23;22 - 00;25;09;11
Unknown
And so, they're the ones that are against deconstruction or deconstructing, you know, that's that's the irony in all of this, deconstructing what they were part of, right? Yeah. Not that. Yeah. But I mean, I'm going to go this far in deconstructing, but I'm not going to go this far. That's kind of what they're saying. It's like I'm I'm going to lose this, but I'm not going to go as far as to lose this, you know, so that, so that I don't go quote unquote, I'm using air quotes too for so when I see that gal in my group, all I'm saying is that she's on a journey to and, you know,

00;25;09;11 - 00;25;33;00
Unknown
she would go she has gone, quote unquote, too far for some people. But the journey of the deconstruction itself, like repair paradigm ING yourself, is not lost even on denominations and pastors. They're doing it right now. I mean, you and I could sit here and we're not going to name denomination, but you and I could sit here.

00;25;33;02 - 00;26;01;18
Unknown
I could easily name six denominations that are splitting up right now, and it's over and probably a couple of big ones that are on their way to it. And all of that is a deconstructive journey, right? It's a re paradigm ING, of of what you're going to I don't know, how would you say it? You know, how you're going to frame your your journey with Jesus and in the Kingdom?

00;26;01;18 - 00;26;30;29
Unknown
We we used to have positive words for it, right? Yeah. We did paradigm shift and new wineskin and, you know. Yeah. Maturation and coming to a conviction like we, we used to have words for the same type transformation revelation. And it was cast in a, in a positive light as something to be encouraged, something to be supported, you know, totally question your faith, come to a conviction.

00;26;31;01 - 00;26;52;25
Unknown
But right now we don't we don't have a positive word in paradigm of it, which is a little strange for me. So I'm just wondering, what do you think? What do you think God's hope and heart is in, in all of this? And what are you watching for? To Mark where God's moving so that you can follow that as a disciple maker?

00;26;52;27 - 00;27;33;07
Unknown
Well, yeah. And it's a good question. I, well, and let me say preface by saying, when someone says deconstruction to me, that's not a negative word to me. So, to me that's a positive word. It's a word of journey, of, exploration, of seeking, I think. I really think, you know, I mean, I can't say this from research or whatever, but I would think that a healthy person is kind of always deconstructing in a little, in some ways, you know, there because we're all we've learned.

00;27;33;10 - 00;28;03;19
Unknown
That's true. They're shifting and they're they're learning. And so, and we've all met parents and people like our grandparents, you know, that that have quit deconstructing. And so they still talk about, you know, what they believe from the 40s. You know, or or whatever. I mean, so I have a great hope and all of this, you know, but I'm a, I'm an Enneagram seven, you know, high AP on a PC scores.

00;28;03;19 - 00;28;27;12
Unknown
And so like, when stuff is, like, blowing up, I'm excited. So it's like, what's new, you know, what are we going to do? This is exciting, you know, and I'm in the prophetic heaven. So I love it too. Yeah. It's okay. There's so much to be done here. I know. And the prophetic part of me, which scores almost as high as my apostolic, is like, yeah, see, see, I told you so.

00;28;27;12 - 00;28;56;18
Unknown
Yeah, this is the way we need to go. I mean, I do have a I have a sadness for the church, but my hope, is that the church will that institutional brick and mortar churches will see eventually see what's going on. And do the hard work to shift and to have conversations. And I think that what's going to drive them there is they're going to close their doors or they're going to join the conversation in the movement.

00;28;56;20 - 00;29;21;12
Unknown
A lot of them, and that's a lot of the work that I do in forge. I mean, forge does a lot of work with kind of pioneer people and networks and, you know, house churches and that kind of thing. But my heart as being someone's on staff of the church that launched a network is to give churches a way forward to kind of, frame environments for these kind of conversations and movements.

00;29;21;12 - 00;29;51;17
Unknown
And so, I do think, I do think there's a connection between what's going on in culture, what's going on in the deconstruction type movements of the church, people not coming back, and churches engaging in smaller environments of of expressions like house churches, businesses, mission, you know, nonprofit or like seeing church is more holistic, community and worship and mission.

00;29;51;19 - 00;30;17;07
Unknown
So that excites me. Like, I want to spend the next ten years kind of helping upper level leadership in churches, kind of, you know, they're getting disrupted. And so of walk into the disruption and say, okay, let's reimagine church and let's imagine a new future, a better future. And then how could you how could you join God and his mission again?

00;30;17;09 - 00;30;40;15
Unknown
You know, so that's my hope. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I that's something I'm passionate about too, right? So yeah, helping helping churches make the transition to be that kind of environment that can that can not only handle the disruption, but walk through it and, and become the thing that God is recreating on the other side. Because I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

00;30;40;15 - 00;30;59;00
Unknown
Right? So I, I do I do believe in our gathering, but I believe in our gathering around the right purposes and the right center. Yeah. So yeah. That's that. Yeah. That's that's where we share that common that common passion. Well, if people want to get a hold of you or learn more about you, what is where can they find you?

00;30;59;00 - 00;31;20;16
Unknown
Out in the interwebs. In the in the metaverse. Yeah. Well, just text Jesse Cruickshank and she has my number. We have coffee, you know, or not. Yeah. So, I mean, I've got a website that I don't keep up with, which we discovered this morning because my Bible needs to be updated. But it's, you know, Roland Smith.

00;31;20;23 - 00;31;43;03
Unknown
Yeah. You can always, you know, probably one really good way to to get hold of me is through Forge America. And, and I see all the emails. So if you just get on Forge America and just email Forge America, then then I'll see it. And then I'm on Facebook and Instagram and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

00;31;43;09 - 00;32;12;00
Unknown
So. All right, well, well encourage people to, to find you out there. Maybe a little cyberstalking to get. Yeah. Actually contact you. So awesome. Well, thanks for being on today. Like I said earlier, you and I could talk about deconstruction for for a long time because it's it's, it's a journey that we're both passionate about helping people through and not lose their faith and not give up on God or Jesus or the ecclesia.

00;32;12;03 - 00;32;22;03
Unknown
So we'll have to. We'll have to continue this somehow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, thanks for having me. And it's always, always good to hang out with you and talk