00;00;00;00 - 00;00;20;23
Unknown
Well, welcome to the Ordinary Discipleship podcast. I'm here with my dear friend Neil Cole. He is a prolific author. He has planted churches all over the world. He has been around as long as the dinosaurs and he has done it. Whatever it is that you think that it looks like to be in worldwide apostolic ministry, Neil has done it.

00;00;20;25 - 00;00;44;26
Unknown
but mostly, and most importantly to me anyway, is he's my really good friend and he's helped me. a lot in the last decade, speaking into moments of my life and mentoring and shaping me. And I've been very blessed by this man. So I'm very excited to introduce you. If you don't know who he is. and if you do, well, then you'll understand why I love him so much.

00;00;44;28 - 00;01;19;01
Unknown
But Neil is so good to have you here. Thank you for joining us. today. Jesse. Yeah. Good to be here. I wanted to talk to you about discipleship. It's a discipleship podcast, so that kind of checks out. But you have taught me some things about discipleship that I want to have you share. if anybody has heard me give a talk on the history of disciple making, like how education has changed across history and so how we thought about discipleship.

00;01;19;03 - 00;01;43;29
Unknown
They will have heard me actually quote you, but I don't I don't reference you, so my bad. This is. I'm making up for that. but when when we talk about discipleship, we start at the beginning. And what's crazy to me about Scripture is that Jesus tells us to go in all the world and make disciples, whether it's the Matthew version, the Mark version, or the acts version.

00;01;44;01 - 00;02;09;20
Unknown
But after that, there's no instructions. It's just it's just a couple verses and he's like, go do it. And they and they did it for hundreds of years, but they didn't have a curriculum. They didn't have five steps. They didn't have, you know, here's your base one base two path, one path to class one. Class two. You. And yet they all seem to be on the same page about what that meant.

00;02;09;22 - 00;02;34;22
Unknown
And there was there's no clarity. There's no follow up. curriculum book. So I'm wondering, what was it that they all understood? What did the disciple making look like in Jesus's day? That then they were able to do all across the Middle East, all the way to China, and and everybody just seemed to understand what was going on.

00;02;34;25 - 00;02;54;26
Unknown
Help us. Help us know. Start from the beginning with us. Well, they didn't even have a a Bible, did they? Well, they had an Old Testament that they knew of, but they didn't carry around in their back pocket. yeah. I think it's pretty simple. They had an encounter in a life with Jesus, and they were to pass that on to others.

00;02;54;27 - 00;03;26;08
Unknown
So they heard his voice and they told people how to hear his voice. I think we've made it so complicated that we hear a lot of voices instead of the voice that really matters. The language that Luke uses to describe the movement of God across, the Mediterranean is the the word logos, he says. And the Word of God spread, and the Word of God multiplied in the word of God.

00;03;26;10 - 00;03;45;29
Unknown
was was the power behind it all? And what he's not talking about the Bible, the word of God. He's talking about hearing the voice of Jesus. I think that, you have a choice. You either let Jesus do the heavy lifting, and that's what they did. They just connected people to Christ. And, like Jesus, disciple them.

00;03;46;01 - 00;04;14;03
Unknown
Or you do the heavy lifting, in which case you're creating all kinds of curriculum and books and and plans and, programs for people to implement. And Jesus gets kind of lost in all the language, all the voice, all the noise, and the product, the person whose life is to be changed by Jesus is not as, brilliant and attractive to the world.

00;04;14;06 - 00;04;44;18
Unknown
Is that what you think the super apostles were doing? The ones that Paul refers to, and he's like, hey, these these guys came in. They're like super flexing. They're calling themselves the mega Super Apostle goobers. And, you know, and they were they were distracting from from Jesus. And they were causing the people to feel small. Yeah, I think Paul dealt regularly with fleshly, carnal, immature Christians.

00;04;44;18 - 00;05;09;04
Unknown
And he would say, hey, so what it is, as long as Christ is being proclaimed in this, I rejoice. But with the super apostles, the false apart, they calls them false apostles. In second Corinthians they are not regenerate. They don't have the Spirit of God. They're a counterfeit by by the enemy. They're tares sown among the wheat. And he doesn't have any room for them.

00;05;09;04 - 00;05;35;09
Unknown
So he he takes them on head on. And it appears, if you look at the insults, I realize they're insulting Paul, and Paul is quoting their insults in his book. They say that he is his. His writing is strong, but his appearances unimpressive in his language, is is horrendous. Those those are the kinds of things they said about him.

00;05;35;11 - 00;05;56;12
Unknown
It tells you something about them that they wanted to be large in charge. They were the beautiful people who deserved all the adoration. They were people who wanted to be worshiped, the opposite of a true apostle who wants you to find Christ and worship him. And a true apostle can do the work and get out of the way.

00;05;56;12 - 00;06;19;00
Unknown
And because Christ is the one discipling them, you don't. You're no longer needed. And that's why they get so easily forgotten. That's why Paul was so easily forgotten. He had to write to the Corinthians and remind them, you've had many teachers. You only have one father. I was there at the beginning, I am I I'm always going to be the one who started this.

00;06;19;03 - 00;07;00;29
Unknown
that's that's really, Paul connected them to Christ, and Christ did the work in them. and I think that that's the way we got to get back to and disciple making, make it less about the middle man, make it more about Jesus. So how do you help people identify, then, that voice of Jesus, that that work of Jesus, especially distinct from these teachers, these people who are trying to, either nefariously or or innocently and ignorantly, you know, trying to trying to disciple us, trying to help shape us.

00;07;01;02 - 00;07;48;01
Unknown
How do we know what's truly Jesus in that? How did they know at the beginning what was truly Jesus in the Word of God and not and not something else, not a counterfeit? Right. Well, the true Jesus voice is always good, pure and right. A it may not regurgitate what you've been taught before. It's interesting to me that if you look at the the legalistic Christians from Jerusalem who wanted to have Paul killed in the first century, and you compare them to Paul in the same time, and you ask which ones being more biblical, the ones who want you to be circumcised, or the ones that are saying you're going to have to be circumcised?

00;07;48;03 - 00;08;23;01
Unknown
Well, actually, if you take a religious lens and read it biblically, the ones who wanted Paul killed were being more biblical. They were exercising what the Bible tells them to do, but they were not right. So God's voice, Jesus's voice can ring, can even change the way we see Scripture. And we don't have room for that if we don't have if we don't believe that the author's voice is more important than the letter itself, there's a problem.

00;08;23;03 - 00;08;48;08
Unknown
So the one of the ways you can become familiar with Christ's voice is in reading Scripture in large volumes, over and over again, is if you love the voice of Jesus, you'll love the scriptures. But you can love the scriptures and not love the voice of Jesus. I know lots of people who are like that. They're devoted to the scriptures, but they never hear what Jesus is actually saying.

00;08;48;11 - 00;09;13;29
Unknown
They've become forsaken in their approach to what is black and white and what is what's the exegesis and what is that? What is the linguists to say about this? And none of those are bad questions in and of themselves doing a study. The Old Testament circumcision is not a bad thing to do, but we get to a place where suddenly now we don't hear God's voice.

00;09;13;29 - 00;09;39;12
Unknown
We just hear commentaries about the Bible and that's not worth living or dying for. the scriptures are alive and you need to hear the voice coming out of them. And I can't give you a formula to discover that because of there is no formula such formula. It's just the Spirit of God in you jives with the Spirit of God in the scriptures, and with the Spirit of God in someone else.

00;09;39;12 - 00;09;43;18
Unknown
And that's what you're looking for.

00;09;43;20 - 00;10;13;08
Unknown
How do you think then they were able to identify that? Like I think about sometimes the that that period right after Jesus goes and by period I mean like 30 years. you know, we don't we don't have the Bible. We don't have the New Testament. Right? Because Paul hasn't written it and Luke hasn't written it yet. We don't have church instruction because Paul hasn't spent the next 50 years or whatever it is.

00;10;13;08 - 00;10;37;23
Unknown
I don't know how long correcting people on what they shouldn't do and what they should do. And and so we don't have those we don't have the instructions. Right. They're just figuring it out. Paul has to go into the desert and reinterpret the Old Testament through Jesus. And that takes a decade. So so we don't have this clarity or but they had the Holy Spirit.

00;10;38;00 - 00;11;02;22
Unknown
They had one another. you know, for this for me, is why discipleship is always a community activity. It's a it's a group. It's a group project. So so how did they I mean, how did they sort through this stuff? Or maybe the better. Maybe that's even a bad question. maybe the question is, how did God lead them through all of that?

00;11;02;24 - 00;11;15;16
Unknown
Yeah. Well, it it's not a bad question, but the second question is a better one. So I think I think,

00;11;15;19 - 00;11;47;28
Unknown
I think disciple. So when we Westerners in the 21st century here, that discipleship is about learning, we go right to the classroom or the book knowledge. We just go to the cognitive right. We go to school. That's not we go to school. And that is not what discipleship is of disciple method takes a learner is someone who's connects himself relationally to someone who will teach them not just knowledge, but not experience.

00;11;48;02 - 00;12;18;28
Unknown
Knowledge. Life. who you are and how you relate to the whole world. from the inside out, how you feel about things, how you view the people around you. All of that shifts and changes. It's not just a list of things that you know, it's it's a whole experiential thing. And I think that discipleship in the first century was I just need to introduce people that Jesus and Jesus will take care of that.

00;12;19;00 - 00;12;33;15
Unknown
And we've gotten so far removed from that simplicity. That's why Paul writes to the Corinthians in that very letter that you've been talking about. He says the,

00;12;33;18 - 00;13;08;03
Unknown
I have to maybe it's the earlier letter. He says, I have determined to know nothing except Jesus Christ and him crucified. Yeah, that's the first puffed up. Yeah, of knowledge puffed up. But but loves edifies. And so it gets back to a relational connection that you have with Jesus. And anything that makes it more or less than that is, is a mistake.

00;13;08;06 - 00;13;35;03
Unknown
I'm just. I'm just thinking about that. It's because. Because we add a lot to that. Right? So we do. I wonder, how do we focus back in then? You know, if, if we're going to be introducing people to Jesus. So let's say we we want to be that disciple and we want to be a disciple maker, and we want to introduce people to Jesus.

00;13;35;06 - 00;13;59;18
Unknown
What how do you how did they do that? Maybe as a as a question, maybe you know, that maybe you don't. or how would you recommend that people think about that today? Because if it's not, I'm going to go take people to school and introduce them to a curriculum about Jesus. even as good as my book is, right, it's not a substitute for your own relationship with Jesus at all.

00;13;59;20 - 00;14;08;16
Unknown
Or even close. but yeah, but what advice would you have for us today on that?

00;14;08;18 - 00;14;36;19
Unknown
Well, in the first century, this was a brand new. They called it a sect because it was it was a brand new thing that that showed up, that branched off of what was traditional Judaism. And it it spread quickly. It spread from life to life. It was a vibrant thing. And I think if you if you only make it about knowing facts, it would not be like that.

00;14;36;25 - 00;15;09;21
Unknown
But it wasn't that they have an advantage in that they're hearing this information, but it's more than information. They're meeting this person who is God and is very present. And it's and that's changing their life forever. They can't go back. That is what was spreading. When we try to make disciples and spread around the world, we we want to put them through a classroom and read a curriculum and make them think more like I think and act more like I think.

00;15;09;24 - 00;15;37;00
Unknown
And we actually end up transferring cultures to other cultures. And that's just colonialism. It's not really a movement of God. So I think we need to get back to the simple we need to. This is from my book, Organic Church. It goes back to the early mid to thousands, but we need to lower the bar of how we do church so anyone can do it, and raise the bar of what it means to be a disciple so they will do it.

00;15;37;03 - 00;16;06;04
Unknown
We need to get back to a discipleship that is no less than me encountering Jesus in an existential and and immediate way that changes everything there is about me. and then I'll never go back and I will tell everybody about Jesus because of that encounter. I mean, we we have no problem cheering on for the Lakers or the Knicks or for the nuggets.

00;16;06;04 - 00;16;14;22
Unknown
Rams. So for the nuggets. Sorry about that. Yeah. Sorry about that. Do.

00;16;14;24 - 00;16;41;27
Unknown
Yeah. So but you know we don't mind telling the whole world about our team. But we are shy about talking about Jesus. What's up with that. Why are we afraid to tell people about Jesus. Well, part of it is because Christianity has such a reputation, and part of it is because, he's a dangerous subject. The nuggets are not a dangerous subject.

00;16;42;00 - 00;17;08;15
Unknown
Especially not now. Yeah, the nuggets won't change your life. but Jesus will. and we've got to get back to a more raw, experiential disciple making where your life is so change, you can't go back, and you want to tell the whole world about this cure, that you have found the solution for your life this hour that has changed you from the inside out.

00;17;08;22 - 00;17;34;06
Unknown
And any discipleship that doesn't isn't carried on that change. Life is going to fail. It's not going to multiply. It's not going to spread. It might make people, smarter. It might even make them more moral. That's all you want to do. And, that's not for me. I want I want people to be connected to Jesus.

00;17;34;06 - 00;17;41;21
Unknown
I don't want to be more moral or more knowledgeable. I want them to be more like Jesus.

00;17;41;23 - 00;18;07;10
Unknown
And so when you do that, only Jesus can do that. so I'm not making disciples of Neil. I'm not making little baby meals. not even my kids want that. so why would I think anyone else wants that? that's that's not my purpose in life. My purpose is to connect people to the real Jesus and make, people who look like Jesus, not people who look like me.

00;18;07;12 - 00;18;33;27
Unknown
And I think Christianity as a whole has done a terrible job of that. And so in the world looks at the church and the Christianity, and they just see the religion, they see the the falling short, they see the hypocrisy, they see the history that doesn't always paint as well. What they don't see as Jesus. If they saw Jesus, I think, I think everything would be changed.

00;18;34;00 - 00;18;56;15
Unknown
Now. It's really interesting because the I was I have a lot of friends that are non-Christians. I have a lot of Christian friends. I have a lot of friends who are non-Christians. I have friends that are ex Christians, for various reasons. and I was sitting with them in the super watching Super Bowl, a couple of years ago when the, This Is Us commercial came on.

00;18;56;20 - 00;19;17;25
Unknown
And I was very curious, like, they know my husband and I are our ordained minister, as they know they know what we do. I mean, he he's actually a marketplace minister. I'm the one who goes out and does the speaking and the talking in the whatever and the books and but so they know us, right? It's not it's not hidden who we are.

00;19;17;27 - 00;19;39;20
Unknown
and so I'm very curious in this room, when the commercial comes on, like how they're going to react because I know the buzz is behind the scene and the controversies that are and the Twitter faces and all of that, and, you know, they're not aware of that. So it comes on, they watch it. And one of them says, well, that was a really interesting commercial.

00;19;39;20 - 00;20;05;16
Unknown
I don't think that Jesus needs a PR campaign. The church might need a PR campaign, but Jesus doesn't. And it and then they started talking and sharing amongst each other, and I just I mean, I'm just a witness in this room to the conversation. But even in that room, like Jesus was a was a good, was good to them, like Jesus was a good person or a good example.

00;20;05;16 - 00;20;33;10
Unknown
Like they had good. Jesus had a good rapport. Jesus had a good reputation in the room with both non-Christians and ex Christians. And, it was just a really interesting reflection. And I've been I've been thinking about it for a little bit that it makes me wonder if we even, we should be afraid to talk about Jesus, because I think the invitation to church would be the church needing a PR campaign.

00;20;33;12 - 00;20;55;07
Unknown
But hey, let me tell you. Let me tell you why I love Jesus like I've actually never encountered, even in my ex Christian friends, where that's an upsetting conversation for them, where they don't want to do it. Like like politics may be off the table, but somehow Jesus isn't. At least maybe with the people that I. Well, there are people of peace, so I don't know.

00;20;55;11 - 00;21;18;11
Unknown
Maybe that makes a difference, but yeah, well, maybe in polite society we don't talk about religion and politics, but that that no longer exists. Society is no longer polite on the street. It is not. No. So you might as well jump in. And if you're going to pick a side, I think picking siding with Jesus is a good place to be.

00;21;18;14 - 00;21;46;03
Unknown
Most people like you described, they respect Jesus. They may even admire Jesus. It's his wife, the church, the bride that they're not too keen on. And when we say you need to accept church in order to accept Jesus, you need to go to church to find Jesus. Then I think we're we're doing the opposite of making disciples. We're pushing people away from Christ.

00;21;46;05 - 00;22;07;07
Unknown
What we need to do is really just make the conversation about Christ. the church is only those who have discovered Jesus. It's not an organization. It's not a family that you have to sign up for in order to find Christ or be saved. That's that's that's, you know, the Bible doesn't say, For God so loved the world.

00;22;07;07 - 00;22;35;26
Unknown
He sent his only begotten church. The church is not the agent of salvation. It is the byproduct of salvation. And once somebody taste Jesus and they know Jesus and they love Jesus, you don't have to convince them to associate with those who have Jesus. They will want that. But when you make them have to associate before you give them Jesus, you're putting the you're having some cart pull a horse and it doesn't work that way.

00;22;35;28 - 00;23;07;01
Unknown
It's crazy what we do. so we need to get just back to Jesus. So. So what? When you. I know that you, are talking to non-Christians more these days, and and and you really see, a mission field of millennials and Gen Zers and and, when you're talking with them, what what do you recommend or what do you do that that would that might be an example for us.

00;23;07;01 - 00;23;30;04
Unknown
So we've got our everyday person who's listening to this podcast is like, yeah, I really I don't know how to share Jesus. I was trained or maybe I remember my church saying, bring somebody to church. So we had a little, you know, training in that. But I'm not going to do that for all, any, any reason. but they, they see somebody, they have to go back to the office now.

00;23;30;06 - 00;23;45;04
Unknown
So they see coworkers and they're like, okay, I might I might take you up on sharing. Jesus. I don't know how to do that. What what does that look like for me? What would you say?

00;23;45;06 - 00;24;18;09
Unknown
Okay. Well, that there's not a way to do it. It's it's just you need to every conversation needs to just flow naturally and authentically from who you are. So if Jesus has. Radically transformed your entire life from the inside out, you should have plenty of information or content to share in a conversation. I mean, if you find some diet and suddenly you lose 20 pounds in a week, which is crazy.

00;24;18;15 - 00;24;52;27
Unknown
But what if that happen? You would not be shy telling your neighbors and friends about this new diet that worked for you. And yet, for some reason, we we are afraid to talk about this Savior who has transformed everything in my life, made all the wrongs right, turned all the bitterness into love, turned to, hatred into, a desire to help people just turned everything upside down in my life to to where it now makes sense.

00;24;52;29 - 00;25;19;01
Unknown
If that's not enough to tell your neighbors and your friends about this Jesus, then me giving you a little spiel about what to say and how to say it, what order to say it. And when you get asked this question that leads you to this list of possible answers, that's just, that that comes across as inauthentic because it is, you know, what you really need to do is just tap into what Jesus does means to you and share that with others.

00;25;19;01 - 00;25;40;22
Unknown
And I think part of the reason we don't share that with others is we don't actually have it right. It, there's a lot of Christians who haven't had that true encounter, don't really have that relationship with Christ. They have maybe walked an aisle when they were a kid, got baptized. They've been a part of the church ever since.

00;25;40;22 - 00;26;07;28
Unknown
And maybe what they need to do is just ask Jesus to fill their life with himself and surrender, and once again, pick up the cross and follow Christ and see where that takes them, because then they'll have stories to tell. but, you know, if we if we don't have something to tell people about Jesus, it may be because we haven't actually encountered the true Jesus.

00;26;07;28 - 00;26;37;28
Unknown
Like we should. Yeah. It makes me think about, like, the person who may have been raised in church, like you said, they don't have a radical before and after story and and what they may have at this point is church hurt, people hurt, unanswered prayers, disappointments. And so their experience is like if they were going to actually talk about faith in their life, it wouldn't be very positive story to share.

00;26;38;00 - 00;27;10;29
Unknown
And, and I think about them and I know, I know a good number of people like that and that one, I don't think that it's their fault that they, like, were raised in a in a church. Right. Like that's good. I was raised in a church, but it does. It does make me, it makes my heart want also like yours want for them that they that they would have a deeper encounter that actually God himself would show up and prove I am good, it is good news.

00;27;11;01 - 00;27;41;16
Unknown
And that they would have that moment, that encounter, whether it's the miracle answer to prayer or the shift in their own heart or, you know, some sort of experience of grace that they didn't do, they didn't earn, they didn't work their way into the church, didn't mediate. But like God just actually did. Right? Well, I think a lot of Christians suffer from what we call T.S., which is testimony envy syndrome.

00;27;41;18 - 00;28;03;14
Unknown
where they hear about the drug dealer who gave his life to Christ, and now he's given Jesus to people or you. They hear about the prostitute who comes to Christ, and now she's made whole, and or the assassin who came to Christ, and now he's given life to others, and that just doesn't match with their experience. They accepted Jesus when they were a little kid.

00;28;03;17 - 00;28;38;12
Unknown
They repented of their sin, which was throwing sand in the sandbox or eating it. and that's it. You know, from that point on, they've walked the path. They've gone to Sunday school, they've been in church, they've pretty much lived up to their parents expectations of their life. And they believe the old stories, but they don't have the dramatic experience that of being saved, of feeling like they've been saved.

00;28;38;15 - 00;29;04;03
Unknown
and I always tell them that Jesus is the same. There aren't more people, more saved than others. There are some people who have more of Jesus than others, if you have to. Yes, if you suffer from testimony envy syndrome, you don't have to go do sinful things in order to be saved. That's a word for somebody.

00;29;04;05 - 00;29;26;18
Unknown
Don't do that. Rather, take more risk for him. Oh, that's so take his take his Scripture to heart and say, I'm going to I'm going to go do this, even if it makes me look like a fool, even if it, you know, just run out on that thin ice believing Jesus will help you walk on water. not literally, but maybe.

00;29;26;18 - 00;29;53;17
Unknown
And that's what he tells you to do. But I think the reason you don't have the dramatic stories is you aren't taking enough risk in your life. Faith is what's important, and faith is spelled as this one preacher once said, risk. That's how you spell faith. You have to take risk. You have to go out there and put yourself in a place where Jesus has to come through for you, and then you'll know what it's like to be saved.

00;29;53;20 - 00;30;24;16
Unknown
But until you do, you'll just be comfortable. You won't be saved, and you won't have the dramatic story to tell your friends and neighbors. But when he comes through, you can't wait to tell people about what Jesus has done for you. I think that's the key. I love that. I think that's incredible. I mean, different risks that came to mind are like, are actually praying for things again, praying for healing again, praying for heart change again.

00;30;24;19 - 00;30;58;29
Unknown
maybe praying to love your neighbor. I couldn't think of something that would be more countercultural and risky in today's society. In our uncivilized society, than actively loving and blessing your enemy like like bless them according to God's will. Right? Like that. Like that would that would be so opposite, so countercultural. yeah. That could be that could be anybody in your life that that when I say who annoys you the most, their image comes into your brain.

00;30;59;02 - 00;31;15;10
Unknown
Find a way to love that person tangibly. Right now, go at what could you do that would make that person's day that is radically shifted. But there's more than that. I mean, you could.

00;31;15;12 - 00;31;48;20
Unknown
Could you could you do something that is takes great a great cost to yourself and do it anonymously? that's a risk for a lot of people. And that's something people are never really trying to do or willing to do or or maybe, maybe your risk is you forgive somebody who did horrendous things to you a long time ago, and you carried that resentment, that bitterness, and you feel rightfully so because of the evil that was done to you.

00;31;48;23 - 00;32;13;08
Unknown
Forgiving that person may be the ultimate step of risk for you, because that will set you free. And you might think, well, they don't deserve it. Well, that's the very definition of what forgiveness is. It's offering to people that don't deserve it. Freedom. so you don't you may not you may say they don't deserve to be let off the hook, but I'll say this to you.

00;32;13;08 - 00;32;37;26
Unknown
You don't deserve to be hooked to these people for your whole life. You need to cut that cord. You need to forgive somebody who did this evil to you. And forgiveness is always transactional. It's always you accepting the evil that's done to you and not expecting anything in return. That's risky. Yeah. And that may be the risk that they need to take.

00;32;37;28 - 00;33;05;11
Unknown
But I also think of one other risk that might be scary these days is reengaging in a faith community, like, especially if you have the the people hurt and the church hurt and the disappointment with God and the unanswered prayers. But to to ask the Lord for, some people not not like a whole. You don't have to be a whole bunch of people, but even just some people, because they're not supposed to do this alone.

00;33;05;13 - 00;33;32;07
Unknown
well, the very definition of unity, of vulnerability is being at risk, right? And vulnerability is essential for a real relationship. So you need to be able to find people like you say that you can be vulnerable, but you can open yourself up and say, hey, this is the real me. And, experience whatever comes from that. That's a risk.

00;33;32;09 - 00;33;59;19
Unknown
I mean, to, to, to kind of bring us back to the beginning, then to, to wrap us up, like I think about the, the, the first Christians and that's what they that's what they did, right? They, they ignored social norms of how the gender should be separated or how classes should be separated. Trades, you know, people, groups like who didn't eat, with whom and whom did, and who you didn't interact with.

00;33;59;21 - 00;34;32;20
Unknown
And they ignored all of that and were like, people together as brothers and sisters. And how radically risky that was, even to the point where they were martyred because of it. but how radically risky it was for them to live life together, dine together, share things in common with one another, and experience Jesus together. So I think the the the kingdom of God is countercultural.

00;34;32;20 - 00;35;02;18
Unknown
And I think that the whole idea of hierarchy is, satanic origins, that it's built into this world to create, some are better than others, some are above others. That that's something we need to be redeemed from. And that's what the kingdom of God does. Well Neal, it's been so good to have you today and, and to share with you and discuss this.

00;35;02;18 - 00;35;25;06
Unknown
I, I just appreciate you from the bottom of my soul. I'm, I'm so blessed to, to this life. So and I love that we get to have this conversation and share it with everyone. We just have great conversations and nobody gets to hear them. so I love that we got this word recorded and we'll share it out.

00;35;25;09 - 00;35;49;14
Unknown
There. If people want to find you, if you want to be found, what would you recommend? Where would you send people if they want to know more about, you know, I have an author page on Amazon.com. You can see my books there. we have a website called Starling Initiative, named after the birds that murmuration together. Starling initiatives.com.

00;35;49;17 - 00;36;12;10
Unknown
this is the best two places. I'm on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, but I don't post a whole lot of content there. Awesome. Well, we. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. Blessings. Come on on your day and blessings on your day for listening to the podcast and joining us today. All right. Well, thank you for listening.