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Unknown
Welcome to Ordinary Discipleship with Jesse Cruickshank. And I am Chris Johnson. With me today is Jacob Hoyer. You know, leadership and discipleship, they're not the same thing, but they are intertwined. Can I get an amen? Amen. They are intertwined. That's the thing. But what do you do, Jacob? What do you do, Jesse, when you're a leader, that gets stuck?

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Unknown
Ouch. What do you do? Do you just double down and work harder? Because that's the American way. Put in instead of that 8 hours, you put in 14. But no, I don't think that's the answer. I think that's the answer to high blood pressure and stress and burnout. Burnout. And then you write a leadership book. Am I right?

00;00;48;07 - 00;01;12;05
Unknown
That's right, because we haven't done that yet. no burnout here. No, but with that being said, I'm glad to bring up this topic today because there's a it doesn't matter if you're a church leader. It doesn't matter if you're a parent. It doesn't matter if you're a CEO or even a high school student. There's going to be times where when you're leading that, you get stuck.

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Unknown
So with that being said, Jacob, do you want to kind of go into that first or. Sure, yeah. And why? I think what you just said there is important to understand as we enter this conversation as like we're talking about leadership. We don't just mean organizational leadership and pastoral leadership. We're talking about the assignments that God gives us.

00;01;28;25 - 00;01;48;28
Unknown
And if you're a person who's done anything really, you know, good. Yeah. If you're out there and you've done nothing. Right. Yeah. So if you've ever if you've ever had a job or been in a family or or had any kind of assignment from God, then you've reached that point where you start to go like, well, gosh, I don't know where to go next.

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Unknown
Yeah, I don't know how to move forward in what I'm called to do. Like, I feel like I've reached that ceiling. And I wish for me that, like, I've reached that point a couple of times in ministry. But for me, like, only a couple. Yeah. I mean, last week, it was like I've repented in that moment to come.

00;02;09;29 - 00;02;31;26
Unknown
Lately, though, it's like we're eight years into a church plant. Like, in my own leadership, I find that, like, my skills and talents are in, like, vision and preaching and discipleship and training. But we're at a point now we're like, That's not what what my people need anymore. And so in order to lead in this place, I'm going to have to figure out how to do some other things.

00;02;31;28 - 00;02;51;22
Unknown
And and that was that was a recent revelation for me, because my default is to just lean farther into what I know how to do. Right? Because I mean, I think it's it's interesting, this idea that we need to just be more of who we already are, which in and of itself I don't think is wrong, but it's just limited.

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Unknown
Right? It's incomplete. Because there's actually something in us that I think when we hit those gaps, we think we need more of who we are. But I think that God allows those gaps or even brings those so that we can grow in a place we haven't grown before. Right. So when I was leading in the Wilderness Ministry, Solid Rocket Outdoor Ministries, we had a sound effect.

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Unknown
Every time you said, I hear this ministry. maybe we'll get that. Maybe it'll fix it in post office, in post-production. And we would say, Well, you can can't go. You can't do what you've never done unless you go where you've never gone. And so there's a part of us that I think that God is wanting to grow or challenge.

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Unknown
And one of my favorites, Graham Cooke, says that anytime you come to one of those places, God doesn't look at how you're broken and how he can fix you. He looks at the next gift he wants to give you. Whoa. And I always thought that that was just a beautiful way to think about limiting ocean. But when we think about limitation as failure because we're all strengths oriented or we're we've got all these coping mechanisms.

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Unknown
Right. That we're covering up. It's because we have fear around our limitations. We have fear around our weaknesses. And we think of them not as gifts from God, but as failures and in order to kind of get unstuck, we have to be brave and start to like, be vulnerable there and let them be seen by us. And the gasp by others is because, man, if you're seen in your weakness and in your failings and in your fallibility and you experience kindness and love, there, there is no words to expect to express how healing that is.

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Unknown
And it's the most incredibly terrifying thing we could ever do. You? Yeah. You saw me at my worst, at my most fallible. And you still love me. I can't believe it. You know, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I was. I was thinking about a recent conversation I with my wife, actually, I had just gotten back from some travel. I travel a lot for work, and it's a rhythm that we've tried to figure out and we kind of did for a few years.

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Unknown
I would travel one or two nights at a time. But lately it's more than two and three nights at a time. And I came back and we were having trouble reconnecting and I was going to the things that I know work for us, like, Hey, let's plan a night out or Let's try to buy her off. Well, now that's like works in my marriage.

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Unknown
I'm drivable. You that's your love language. It's very, very gift giving. But I was trying to get some time alone and find something like that. And none of that was working. And finally, I just kind of said to her, I was like, Hey, us being connected is important to me, and if what we're doing isn't working, then we need to do something different.

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Unknown
And that was a moment for me that was really scary, right? Because the lie in my head was like that. She didn't want to be connected. And. And. And I was coming to her saying, like, if that's the truth, then. Then I'm in panic mode. Yeah. You know, and we were having this conversation on a Friday or Saturday because I remember we were actually in worship on Sunday morning.

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Unknown
I was watching her across the room as we were singing worship songs, and I thought I just had this revelation like, we're about to enter a new season of our marriage and I'm going to get to know my wife in a way I've never known her before. And I realized that like what it's going to mean for me to be a husband in this next season is completely different than what it's meant for me to be a husband in the last season.

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Unknown
And. But. But in order to do that, that means that I'm going to have to learn new skills. I'm going to have to continue to be vulnerable so that I can so that so that she can help me confront the lies in our relationship and I can grow into who I am next. I don't just level up in in, in, in, in, in power and skill to be the person I am next.

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Unknown
I have to grow into the person I am next. And that's a process of redemption and healing that the spirit brings. And so it requires vulnerability on my partner and in that in that community of two that we have, that we would be able to walk that journey together. Right. Because it's terrifying, right? Because we're absolutely afraid of being seen as a failure.

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Unknown
Because we are afraid. We actually are. Right. And that's just going to confirm it or we're afraid of being rejected because we feel like we're unlovable. And that's the actual truth. We've just, you know, been hiding from it or running from it or that we have like this need, like of being connected like you expressed. And we're actually afraid that somebody is going to look at that and go, you know what?

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Unknown
You're not worth what it's going to cost me. Right, to meet that need. And those are the deep fears in our heart into, you know, And so we think, yeah, let me just power up in this moment. Let me just be more, you know, ooh, whatever I am, I'm going to be ooh low that all Geico commercial.

00;07;39;28 - 00;08;01;18
Unknown
I'm this those ones like they're like, you just get more or more and you know like now we're, you know in a less is more kind of season, but we still think that about our own selves like we just need to be more when I think the truth as demonstrated in Philippians two is we actually need to be less.

00;08;01;19 - 00;08;35;15
Unknown
Well, how do you do that? Well, I think. Well, when you pray, but I was thinking as Jacob, as you were talking about, like a transition in my marriage and I've been with my husband 25 years is when I started to expose those fears and those lies and actually say them out loud. And instead of, like, trying to manipulate the situation, I wasn't intentionally manipulating the situation, but I was trying to get him to behave in a way that proved them wrong, which is for those of you who are in relationships, you're like, okay, well, I'm just going to ask this question or, you know, if you like me, you're going to respond to

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Unknown
my text or, you know, if you think that I'm doing a good job, you're going to give me an attaboy or an out A girl. Like that's where we behave because we want them to act in a way that proves us wrong. But when we got beyond that, and I started just saying the thing that I was most afraid of out loud, which was a terrifying transition, like through clenched fists and gritted teeth, saying the thing I'm most afraid of.

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Unknown
One, it took the power out of that lie. And two, it allowed my husband or your community, when you can start to do this with a community, it allowed them to be on the side of helping fight the lie with me. So now I'm not the only one fighting it in my head, in my heart. It's actually like somebody else gets to say, no, that's a lie.

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Unknown
Let me tell you the truth. Then I don't have to come up with the truth myself and I don't have to hold the truth myself. Other people can do that with me and for me. And then when I'm tired, which in that moment, you're usually pretty tired. You don't have to do it yourself. They can tell you and remind you of the truth, that your love, that you're accepted, that you're worthy, that you're valuable, and all those things that you need to hear, but that you never believe.

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Unknown
If you tell yourself, but then you respond like my wife, you all. You're just saying that because you have to. You're my husband. I'm like, No, I'm not, actually. And that's what I think. Like, we just used examples for marriage. But I had a conversation like this with a colleague recently. It's another pastor friend who lives in another state, and I was processing with her some of the leadership challenges I'm facing at my church.

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Unknown
And part of that conversation I had said, you know, we're at a critical inflection point, like we're to juncture point in the life of our organization. And after I had told her everything she was, Yeah, it sounds like that's true. I said, I feel like if we don't get this decision right, if we don't get this decision right, 18 months from now, everything's going to be ruined.

00;10;26;14 - 00;10;43;28
Unknown
And I don't know those exact words, but I lost the gist of what I said. That's intense, bro. It seems pretty cataclysmic. Yeah, Yeah. But I think we back ourselves into these scenarios where we're like, I have to do like. Like you're saying, I'm saying out loud, the thing that. That is my greatest fear. Yeah. My greatest fear in that moment is like, I'm going to make the wrong decision.

00;10;44;04 - 00;11;03;04
Unknown
I'm going to screw it all up. In that moment, my friend was able to say to me, That's not true, right? And she was able to say to me, actually, what's happening is God is guiding your organization. It's not dependent on the decisions that you make. And but I've been I've been putting all my stock in me being a good decision maker and a good planner and a good leader.

00;11;03;07 - 00;11;24;28
Unknown
And so I'm going like, well, what if I don't lead properly? Isn't it all going to fall apart? And she said, no, because God is the one who's been doing it all along, not you. And so when you can expose those fears, then that's when the gospel can come in. It's interesting. I was in my senior year of high school, and one of my favorite teachers was this little Irish Catholic old teacher named Mr. Burke.

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Unknown
He was great and I got to school the second semester and I realized that I was going to be 0.5 credits short of graduating. Like, I didn't take the right class. And I remember I just went into complete panic mode and my head was like, I mean, I was going to go to college, I was going to do all this stuff.

00;11;44;25 - 00;12;03;16
Unknown
And now like I had already, I'm going to live in a van down by the river. I'm going to be homeless. I'm going to you know, and it's crazy how our minds can just go. And without proper community, you can just go to the worst case scenario like that, you know? And Mr. Burke came up and he's like, Dude, we can fix this.

00;12;03;16 - 00;12;21;04
Unknown
Chill out, you know? And I was worried about it for four days before I had enough. I didn't want to tell anybody because I felt like a complete idiot. Right? Right. And it's just crazy how and Jesse, you know this like how the human mind can just spiral this out. And without that community come back and say, Hey, dude, it's not all on you.

00;12;21;09 - 00;12;38;18
Unknown
God's actually got this. Or, Hey, hon. Like, I don't know what your worst fear is. Tell us right now. No, but I'm saying I don't know what that was, but he's able to help you call out the lies of the devil. And that's one thing your brother helped me do. I'll just be able to identify, like, know if.

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Unknown
If you're hearing these negative thoughts, that's not from Jesus. Jesus speaks love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. Right. And God is optimistic, right? So if it's not an optimistic voice, right. It's not God. That was a game changer for me. Like, honestly, growing up, being abandoned, all that stuff. Like, I was always I'm not good enough. The first time I did my first sermon, I'm walking up and I heard this not audible voice, but this voice in my head that said, Who do you think you are?

00;13;08;24 - 00;13;33;28
Unknown
Why are you There are people in this congregation that know so much. Go sit down. And I remember I had to go up to the podium, like close my eyes and say, Lord, I got you've got to be with me right now because I feel like I want to puke. Like, yeah, you know? And so that's why I think, you know, our world would tell us in lots of great like be amazing books would tell you to power up in that moment.

00;13;33;28 - 00;13;53;28
Unknown
Yeah. You know, remember that you are amazing. Suck it up, buttercup. Like. Like lean into your strengths. Like, all of these, like, get bigger. Yeah. And puff up kind of coaching, right? When what Scripture says is actually it's okay to be small. Actually, it's okay to be weak. Actually, it's okay to be fallible. It's okay to be incomplete.

00;13;53;28 - 00;14;15;08
Unknown
It's okay to be unsure. It's okay to be uncertain. And in that moment we breathe and we invite the Holy Spirit into it and we say, God, you promise that you are made perfect and your strength is made perfect. And my weakness and your strength through me is made perfect in my weakness. So you actually, God never requires us to not be weak.

00;14;15;11 - 00;14;47;16
Unknown
He never requires us to not be imperfect, like he doesn't have a different accountability or called us. So we get to breathe and be okay being small and invite God to fill the space. And every time I've done that, and I can think of 100 times because, you know, when you're leading a wilderness ministry and people can die, like scary things happen because you're like, so and you've got guides in the field making decisions and maybe they're making the best decision and maybe they're not.

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Unknown
And maybe they're doing a good job leading and maybe they're not. So you've talked about this a lot. Hold on a second. What's one of the craziest stories that happened in the wilderness? I mean, it depends on the type. Like there's medical, there's healing, there's evacuation, There's like like what's one of the times where you were like, my goodness, this went south?

00;15;04;24 - 00;15;26;10
Unknown
Well, we prayed a lot, so a lot of that stuff got redeemed. I mean, I've seen broken ankles healed, I've seen knees repaired, I've seen backs healed, I've seen rashes healed, I've seen things not get healed. And we've had the evacuation. I mean, I made them key trees in the middle of a hurricane, not a hurricane, a tornado, because that's what we have in the inland.

00;15;26;13 - 00;15;43;20
Unknown
Yeah. Like a I don't know. They're crazy. I've seen a lot of miracles. We would we learned how to pray, to command the weather all the time. And I learned that skill and I pass that skill along so I can actually like, nobody's going to believe me when I say that they don't it. But I mean, I can pray the weather does things.

00;15;43;20 - 00;15;59;29
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's some supernatural stuff that happened out in the wilderness, is what you're saying. Yeah, That's the only reason why we made it. God showed up big time. All the time. All the time. And we didn't have to be more. And and when you're at the base of some super doctor that like. Right.

00;16;00;04 - 00;16;20;19
Unknown
There's no superhero coming to save your act. Yeah, right. It's just. It's the Holy Spirit. So I think that amazing thing to be brave enough to be vulnerable means then we don't have to do it by ourself. And that's the thing, right? We're actually not complete. It's not good for man to be alone. And that's actually also like human to be alone.

00;16;20;19 - 00;16;45;28
Unknown
We're created to be with one another. And that the anecdote to our ceiling is to actually be less and invite God and others into the space with us. That's cool. So we have a couple of minutes left. In fact, one, so let's do this. You had a comment earlier that growing in maturity brings more freedom and room to breathe.

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Unknown
I don't know if that was you, Jacob, or Buddy, or does anybody want to comment on that, that growing in maturity, spiritual maturity brings more freedom and room to breathe? Can you? Yeah, I like to define spiritual maturity as being a six year old playing in the backyard. it's so like a sense of wonder, wonder freedom in that you can just run around and scream, Right?

00;17;07;12 - 00;17;22;13
Unknown
Right. Because as a six year old, worried about dinner. No, no. Is a six year old worried about, you know, whether or not they jump off the slide is absolutely going to catch them. No, absolutely. They do crazy things right now. I think there's a fence because I do think that there are some boundaries, but it's not a slippery slope.

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Unknown
I don't believe in that. It's a fence You can run up. You know, you can run smack into it, Right. You know, and it's there. And they're not worried about all these things that we carry worry about because they are secure and confident and trust in their their caregivers. So for and you know what? They don't actually pretend to know more about the world than they do.

00;17;44;21 - 00;18;06;25
Unknown
And that's the other thing. So I think there's freedom. There is space to run and play and jump and get into trouble and have, you know, parent like do converted things to catch them as they jump off of things and they are responsive right? So the parent says, don't do that. They're like, okay, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, tone and timeline.

00;18;07;02 - 00;18;26;24
Unknown
Sure. Sure. But that to me is freedom and that free people, Free people. So when I'm in spiritual maturity and I'm living in freedom because I really trust God and I really trust God likes me and he's got me, He's got my back, he's going to lead me. I can be responsive. I'm only responsible to be obedient. I don't have to be responsible to figure it out.

00;18;26;27 - 00;18;55;08
Unknown
Well, and that's a space of freedom and a playground. I can buy other people in, too. Very cool. That is really, really cool. And I think we're going to end it there. Jesse If people want to know more about this topic or anything else, how do they get where do they go? What should they do? And so we have a website called Who oLogy Doc Co, so analog y dot CEO and you can find out about other things that we offer like cohorts that we offer and trainings and, and ways to get in touch with us.

00;18;55;11 - 00;19;12;28
Unknown
Or you can go to ordinary discipleship dot com and there you can get a copy of the book you can well actually you buy it through, you know, whoever you want to buy it through or you can get more episodes of the podcast. Yeah. And you guys are kicking out, we're kicking out all kinds of stuff, Well, I'm taking it out.

00;19;13;04 - 00;19;28;16
Unknown
We got a little bit of content we have. We have some ideas to put out, and that's it. That's good. All right, everybody, Thanks for joining us for the Ordinary Discipleship podcast. We'll look forward to seeing you next time. God bless. Have a great day.