00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;14
Unknown
Well, I'm. I'm super excited about our conversation today. And I just want to welcome our audience, for for joining me today. We've got Jamie and Donna Winship, and Jamie and Donna have decades of experience bringing peaceful solutions to some of the world's highest conflict areas. For Jamie, after a distinguished career in law enforcement in the Metro DC area, Jamie earned his M.A. in English and developed a unique process called the Identity Method.

00;00;26;16 - 00;00;50;27
Unknown
This process of identity transformation is the key to resolving inner conflict and acquiring new levels of learning and creativity in any field. As a little side note, because that's how the brain works. But his kind of conventional efforts to bring about societal and racial reconciliation led him to Indonesia, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, and back to the United States, where I don't know if you know, but we have conflict here, too.

00;00;51;00 - 00;01;14;23
Unknown
So they've worked in with professional sports, business, education, law enforcement, government. Jamie is author of The Living Fearless exchanging the Lives of the world for the Liberating Truth of God. And together, they're the co-founders of Identity Exchange and its corporate arm, the Identity Method. So they provide training and consulting. But the transformative power of living fearlessly and your true identity.

00;01;14;26 - 00;01;38;23
Unknown
Jamie. And it's so good to have you guys here today. really, I've been looking forward to this conversation for just for a little while so we can, talk about both the neuroscience and the practical lived application of how God created us to grow and change and transform. So I wonder if we could start with having you give us a little background on why you care about identity.

00;01;38;29 - 00;02;06;03
Unknown
It's not a thing that everybody like talks about it. So how did you guys get into, having a passion for identity? Well, first, Jesse, thank you so much for having us on your podcast. And we are thrilled to be here and partner with you to help people understand how the brain works and where identity comes from, and neuroscience, where it's place is.

00;02;06;05 - 00;02;33;22
Unknown
yeah. Why are we passionate about identity? because most people, including ourselves, live most of their lives in a false identity. And that's why we have so much conflict in the world, because we have conflict in our inner selves, never feeling like we're good enough or smart or not feeling like we're alone. Feeling like we're powerless. Feeling like we're hopeless.

00;02;33;24 - 00;03;07;04
Unknown
And we have lives that we have to participate in and be in charge of jobs and parenting and all these things. But if I feel powerless and hopeless, how am I going to help my child with their problem? Or how am I going to go into work and manage my people? And we didn't come to understand these principles until, we were around 40, I guess, and it changed everything for us, just understanding that who you are is everything.

00;03;07;04 - 00;03;35;21
Unknown
If you don't know who you are, then how do you know what to do? You're being informed. You're doing. Yeah. And being being in our 40s, we we had a good sense of what happens when you don't know who you are. We had a lot of experience in the struggle and the sense of failure that comes even though we were like professionally successful, that didn't that doesn't didn't fill us with value and worth that professional that was.

00;03;35;21 - 00;04;19;18
Unknown
In fact, it was kind of disheartening because we had that, but we didn't. We didn't even in our own relationship, we just we knew something was incorrect, wasn't right. So it was our own journey, our search for wholeness. Like what makes a person whole. As you lean into that journey as it is, it changed the way that you think about like satisfaction and inner peace and, you know, just that, that internal state of rest or confidence or peace, like, like describe what the inner state is that you guys live with, that this journey has gotten you to, to help you find.

00;04;19;20 - 00;04;43;12
Unknown
Yeah, that's a good a good question. I think in that inner state, when you're and everybody has something especially I think when you're a little bit younger and you're trying to figure out who you are and what your purpose for life is, that thing you think about, you wake up in the middle of the night and you just don't have that inner peace.

00;04;43;13 - 00;05;12;20
Unknown
I wish I wasn't like this, why did I say such a stupid thing? Why did. And you know I'm talking about the world. The word regret. And I think when you have a sense of your true self and your true self is timeless and it's the core essence of who you are, then you are operating in an overflow of that, and it naturally brings you a sense of peace.

00;05;12;20 - 00;05;37;14
Unknown
And you naturally know, like, that's not my wheelhouse. I'm not going to go in this lane because I'm not desperate for something to happen there, because you have an inner peace that, you know, that's not for me on the flip side, and there's another opportunity, in front of you, and you recognize that it just fits with who you really are.

00;05;37;14 - 00;06;12;09
Unknown
You have that inner peace to go for it. So no regrets based on past failures, and no anxiety about the future based on past failures. Right. Because you understand who you are and what you're you're meant to be first and then at doing out of that. Yeah, I would agree. And there's, there's we were doing a discussion on work, you know, work, vocation work and the idea of can we get to a place instead of resting from work?

00;06;12;09 - 00;06;43;12
Unknown
We can work from rest. Okay. Like that whole idea of can I get into was a zone of I'm just at rest. And we did this mean we did this? We tried this in the police department. Like when when you're in a high speed pursuit, the the higher the speed, the more risk involved you're trying to drop to a deeper level of call, and there has to be practices or processes for the human being to do that.

00;06;43;12 - 00;07;08;13
Unknown
Because, you know, what happens is it's like when you're pursuing another vehicle, you get tunnel vision. Your your brain just locks in on what you're trying to capture, and all your other senses are shut out. And and when that car without fail, if that car over steers or runs off a cliff, you'll go right with them because your brain, where your brain is in that car, it's no longer separate.

00;07;08;13 - 00;07;32;12
Unknown
It's like you're now that thing and that thing is driving you more than you are. So we had that practices to keep ourselves separate from what? From what we're pursuing. So like if you're in pursuit of something, if you're if you're in the pursuit itself is driving you, you're going to wreck when that wrecks. Right. But if you're but if you pull yourself back in like, I'm not, I'm not what I'm pursuing.

00;07;32;12 - 00;07;55;26
Unknown
I'm separate. I'm I want to I'm going after it, but I'm talking. I'm present right here. Right. And so they attempted to teach how to stay separate then. So even in life it's like, what are you in pursuit of? That thing is driving you. And that's determining what you're doing rather than you determining what how you respond to this pursuit.

00;07;55;26 - 00;08;24;21
Unknown
So that's cool. Yeah, I, I just identity is like maintain your own identity. You don't get your identity from the pursuit. Bring your identity to the pursuit and you take it when it's over. That's the beauty of staying at rest. Right. Because that at least helps you regulate your systems enough that you can maintain some of that higher level of thinking instead of the lower, more, you know, survival level of the game.

00;08;24;24 - 00;08;49;14
Unknown
That's right. So what did well, how would you guys define identity? I feel like it's a word we use, and most of us know what we mean by it. But it doesn't mean that we mean the same thing or thinking about the same thing. So, you know, how do you guys define identity? Yeah. Well, before I before I think Donna can answer that really well, but before she says, I just want to say what it's not it's not what I do, what I have and what people think about me.

00;08;49;14 - 00;09;13;19
Unknown
That's not identity. And that's important to know what it's not. So and kind of same thing. So you can eliminate certain things before you go after it. So definitely not what you have, what you do and what people think about you. It's it's much deeper than that. So yeah, it's also not your gender. It's not your ethnicity. It's not your religion.

00;09;13;21 - 00;09;48;02
Unknown
it's not your political party, it's not your sexual preference. And I think especially in the times we're living in, this is what people are getting identity from your identity. It is the essence of the sense of I that you carry deep, inside of you. It's grounded in love, and it's secure in your status of knowing your value and your worth.

00;09;48;04 - 00;10;16;29
Unknown
It's the truest thing about you. So from a biblical standpoint, if I can share two references, Isaiah 43 one is talking about, Jacob and it says, the Lord says, I have the Lord through the prophet Isaiah says, I have formed you, oh, Jacob, I have called you Israel. And so you see that identity transformation right there in one statement.

00;10;17;01 - 00;10;48;17
Unknown
But why? Why has this taken place? The next part says, do not fear, for I have redeemed you and called you by your name. Why? So you will know that you are mine. In the purpose of understanding. The core essence of yourself is it's your connection to God so you will know whose you are. It's not to show you what to do, it's not to show you what your purpose in life is.

00;10;48;20 - 00;11;15;25
Unknown
As you as God pours into you. Every identity that we have is an identity of God, of Christ, every identity. And as we come to understand what our identities are, as we discover the truth of who we are, then we understand how connected it's the DNA of God in us. And then you'll overflow that and you'll have an understanding.

00;11;15;25 - 00;11;41;28
Unknown
You'll have a sense of what you're supposed to do in any given situation. I could be have an identity of healer, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm supposed to be a doctor. I can be a custodian in a school and still be a healer, because I bring my identity into any situation that I'm in. Also in, John chapter ten, Jesus also says, my sheep know my voice.

00;11;41;28 - 00;12;06;02
Unknown
They follow me. I call them by name. And just so just another, there's a lot of references to understanding identity. And I just want to say identity is not just a name. It's not just a moniker. You know that your identity, like I said a second ago, it's the essence of who you really are. And just briefly, you can really see it.

00;12;06;02 - 00;12;36;10
Unknown
And a great example that I'll just briefly share is Moses, you know, as a little baby at the risk of death from Pharaoh, his parents delivered him from death in a little basket because this was prophetic of who he was going to become. He was going to defy Pharaoh and be the deliverer of an entire nation. And that early life experience was indicative of what he was to become.

00;12;36;12 - 00;13;02;22
Unknown
Understanding identity is a process through your lifetime. You discovered even Jesus at his baptism, heard his identity, and then was launched into his ministry. So, so I love that because I think about discipleship also is the journey of identity and identity formation and re formation. Because as a neuroscientist, the way that we form our identity changes over time.

00;13;02;26 - 00;13;24;29
Unknown
So if I think about like faith development theory and James Fowler and the and the and then Erick Erickson, so these other psychologist peoples and how they tracked how identity changed over life. So when you're a toddler, your identity is what people name me then is like a school age kid. It is their identity as I am what I do.

00;13;24;29 - 00;13;44;04
Unknown
So, you know, I am a football player. I am a good in school or or whatever. And so so we go through those phases and then the and then as a teenager, the identity as I am who other people say that I am and we kind of like need that group to help us know more about ourselves. But then as an adult, we're supposed to grow out.

00;13;44;04 - 00;14;19;28
Unknown
Even that and replace either have the Jesus form of each one of those, but then as an adult, come out to a different place where we can have that direct relationship with God, and God is our own. And I am who God says I am right. And it takes I mean, God should be informing that. But but because they're children, they're being informed by the people around them and hopefully the people around them are partnering with God and saying those things and speaking those things over them that are in alignment with God to help us get to this adult stage of of understanding ourselves, which is I am who God says I am.

00;14;20;00 - 00;14;42;23
Unknown
And we can look back and see how he's been faithful to that our whole life. But it is it is a journey because we what we understand about our self changes and how we understand our self changes as we grow and develop. And so, you know, I I'm just if I want to think about this in, in the terms of also like how do we know what's true and how do we move forward now?

00;14;42;23 - 00;15;02;23
Unknown
How do you guys think about the connection between this journey of identity and like this pursuit of truth or the search for truth, or because I think sometimes we think that there's truth out there, and then I need to find it, and that'll tell me who I am, or it'll tell me what I'm supposed to do, because we're very doing society.

00;15;02;25 - 00;15;36;08
Unknown
But like, connect those two, those two for us and you, the way you guys minister to people. Yeah. I mean, that's so I that's so beautiful how you said that. Because it is true. It's it's a journey. And I love those phases. I love, you know, like Spiral Dynamics and these kinds of transitional movements and and I, I personally think the Beatitudes are that, that, that Jesus is speaking in developmental stages of you have to get empty first and then you have to learn what to be sad about.

00;15;36;08 - 00;16;00;27
Unknown
And you can't do that if you're not empty. And it's a it's it's oh wow dynamic. I've never heard that before. I'm going to have to go back and check that out. That love that. Yeah. Yeah. It's really if you put if you put Spiral Dynamics and child development and the whole idea that we begin and you know, the archaic and we move to the magical and then the mythical and the rational, that's what the Beatitudes I think are doing, and that's what they're explaining all the way up through them like this.

00;16;01;00 - 00;16;26;07
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. All the way up to the mature level where persecution won't even stop you. Like you're beyond it, like you're at this causal stage where you now are the cause of things and you're not just reacting to things. Right. This causal agent above rational and all of that. And I think that's really beautiful. And I think that Christians miss this a lot because we're religious.

00;16;26;07 - 00;16;47;04
Unknown
And, you know, that kind of stuff is, you know, that's worldly and all that. But I think it's very beautiful what you said. And I love that you're speaking to that. So, I mean, so even this morning I'm with an adult, you know, and I think as that exactly as you're saying, if they're going through these stages, but they're in those stages.

00;16;47;11 - 00;17;16;18
Unknown
So they can't know more than the stage and you cannot skip stages, right? It's not magic when this isn't like Jesus walks up and goes digging and all of a sudden you're this you've gone through these stages, and the interaction with Christ or unconditional love is to be able to even go back and understand the stages. Right. But you can't do it until you're up here in this higher level of maturation where you're like.

00;17;16;21 - 00;17;35;00
Unknown
And so this guy I was with today, he's very he's very successful in what he's doing. And, and and I said to him, describe what you're doing. He's saying, I'm constructing ideas and, and building concepts in my profession. And he's very good at it. But he's unhappy. He's he's like something that's producing a lot of anxiety and fear in him.

00;17;35;00 - 00;18;03;05
Unknown
And so, so then what we, what we want to do, you know, with, with the spirit, with God is to go back and just look at, well, what was happening all along. Because really, this journey has been occurring the whole time, right? So what we can do as adults is now we can reflect backward and contemplate right. And and his like what was happening and where maybe where did the you had a sense of what was right as a little child.

00;18;03;05 - 00;18;25;16
Unknown
This is Jesus saying you need to become like a little child. Okay. So he has this. He's just remembering, you know, it's a very it's not a super intense conversations like, tell me when you were young, where where were you? Joyful and and he said, I was. I just remember being down in the basement alone with. And he was he said I was building with this toy called construct.

00;18;25;16 - 00;18;47;17
Unknown
So he was I was alone, building with constructs. He goes, and I was so happy. Just trying to figure out. And I said, so it's what you're doing now? And he goes, yeah, that's right. Well, that was so fun. How come now you're building that you're you're that you're doing the same thing. But now what's why. And then he was like, oh my gosh.

00;18;47;17 - 00;19;10;18
Unknown
He goes, he goes, that was one thing. But then, you know, a year later I was with my dad building a go kart, and my dad kept criticizing what I was doing, and I lost my joy in the building construct. And I said, why? Because now it was for another's approval. Now it's not my identity doing this.

00;19;10;18 - 00;19;30;12
Unknown
It's not, it's me doing this, but I'm getting my identity from someone else's opinion of this. And he said he was like, that's exactly what's happening in my job. Right. It's because now I'm getting my identity not from the building and construct, which is my identity to be involved in that. But now I, I've attached to it.

00;19;30;18 - 00;19;49;29
Unknown
It's only valuable if this person says it's a valuable or it makes money or whatever. And so it so he could see the whole journey, but he could also see where it went off into. Yeah. Now you're now you're off the the value of who you are in and of yourself now. Now you're attaching that value to the affirmation of another.

00;19;50;01 - 00;20;12;11
Unknown
And so that's why people get into terrorism. That's why they get into all the crazy things they get into is because they they're that that beautiful identity is their it's been in their life and maybe they've had and they've lost track of it in certain places. And now it's way over and something else and they know how to get back to it.

00;20;12;14 - 00;20;35;11
Unknown
Right. And so they're just now they're just, you know, sort of in the reptilian brain just reacting to everything that's going on. Instead of letting that beautiful identity guide, so many, so many thoughts that I am, I'm having right now because like, for me, the definition of idolatry is anything that informs our identity. Other than who God says we are like because it because it could be good stuff, right?

00;20;35;11 - 00;21;02;17
Unknown
But we're getting identity from it instead of God. So whether that's, you know, our, our church, our ministry, our work, a magazine. You know, I like the Bible, so, so I ha I'm, I sometimes get in trouble by saying that people have an idolatry of the Bible and absolutely. and, and so back me up here. Why, why do you say the same thing?

00;21;02;17 - 00;21;26;00
Unknown
Because I didn't know you said the same thing. So I'm totally being a little vulnerable right now. And there's like to to play that card. But tell me why. You see, people have an idolatry around the Bible. So it's, it's it's it's quite clear when you're reading the Bible this you know to the only, the only one in the scriptures called the Word of God is Jesus.

00;21;26;02 - 00;21;56;04
Unknown
So, so the the graph, a scriptural text is not the word of God. And people don't realize what you know. The English translate translation of the word word has at least three different Greek meanings. And we just say the word. There's the rhema word, the logos were the graphic word. And what most Christians just generally using here think of as the word is.

00;21;56;11 - 00;22;21;11
Unknown
They think it's the word graphic, the text itself. And that's the least used form of the Greek word. It's more Jesus is the logos, the spoken word of God. The rhema word is the experiential word of God. And it's worth looking these things up. But we all we've just been trained to think every time we see that word, word that it just means the book.

00;22;21;11 - 00;22;44;14
Unknown
Right? And the and so and then back into so graphic is used. all Scripture is given by inspiration, right? All of the text is God breathed. That's really the only passage that talks about the text. It's really that one. And even Paul is inventing the word God breathed because he doesn't really know how to explain how it went from there to here.

00;22;44;16 - 00;23;06;13
Unknown
So he has his word, but it's only used a couple times graphic. But when you get to Hebrews four, it's like the word which I grew up on. The Word of God is sharper. The correct translation is the word that God speaks is sharper than any two edged sword. Which which is back to what Dana saying. It's everything that God has said and will say in your life in the text.

00;23;06;15 - 00;23;45;25
Unknown
And finally, when when you watch, the Pharisees are taking the graph and throwing it at Jesus to make him come underneath the Scripture, they're they're they're they're telling the Word of God itself that you have to bow down to Levitical text. You can't you can't heal people on the Sabbath. They're they're quoting Bible verses at is. And he's saying to them, he's saying to them, the Bible verses are beneath me like the everything must kneel to the person of Christ.

00;23;45;28 - 00;24;12;23
Unknown
Right. And so what you're kneeling to is words, and that is idolatry. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. And finally, the Bible didn't die on the cross for me. Yeah, yeah. It didn't. It didn't save me. Jesus rescued us, right? So that's that is really damaging to me, right? We love the Bible. We read the Bible.

00;24;12;23 - 00;24;43;19
Unknown
Yeah. With just, tremendous hunger. And but there's a lot of translations, and it's important to use these great resources that are available to us now, like Blue Letter bible.com and get to the original meaning of the text because it's it's been perverted and the Bible tells us how to use the Bible. That's the beauty of it. It tells us have every need that the Scripture tells me every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ, not anything else, is Lord.

00;24;43;26 - 00;25;04;00
Unknown
That's what the graph does. It points us to the truth of the living relationship with the God who speaks identity into his people. That's what the text is for, and it does it very beautifully. But it is not above that. Right? So I absolutely love it that we've come to that. Like, like you and I have come to conclusions.

00;25;04;00 - 00;25;24;23
Unknown
There's slightly different paths, but the same spot, because for me, the Bible isn't part of the Trinity. Right. And if I know that the way that we form at least neuroscience, why is the way we form identity is by mirroring. That's the foundational way that the brain learns to know itself, that we only know ourself by looking at something else.

00;25;24;25 - 00;25;47;19
Unknown
And so, like theologian Martin Buber called this the I thou. For those people who are theologian trained, you can go look at that. It's really hard to read, but it's beautiful. But if I look at like Second Corinthians three, that I look at the face of God and I'm transformed into his likeness, that's what Paul talks about. And so for me, but the Bible becomes an idolatry when I'm looking at that.

00;25;47;25 - 00;26;10;02
Unknown
Right, instead of the face of God. And, you know, Paul calls that law. But if we're looking if we're talking about the search for truth, the way that we find truth is not through reading, right. It just isn't right. It's by looking at something and you can't have. I mean, I believe the Bible is amazing and beautiful and it like it's different to me in every moment in every season.

00;26;10;02 - 00;26;31;25
Unknown
And it's living and breathing and it's like there's something fantastical about it. But at the same time, I can't have a relationship with it because it can't have a relationship back with me. Right. So if the foundation of truth is founded in relationship, that's how humans were created, then that has to be God, right? That has to be the face of Jesus.

00;26;31;25 - 00;26;58;15
Unknown
That has to be the experience of the Holy Spirit, not Graphy right. And and so this, this, this whole dynamic of our identity being formed by the face of God and His word to me specifically, whether I read that in the Holy Spirit, you know, is like, hey, that's you, you know, you know, again, we're not we're not elevating the Bible or suppressing that.

00;26;58;15 - 00;27;21;28
Unknown
We're just saying you can have a relationship with the text and not have a relationship with God. Right. And and it's the relationship with God that transforms us as every illiterate person who doesn't have the Bible in their language already knows. So, yes. So this gets me super excited because I'm not the only one after I no, no who sees this dynamic.

00;27;22;00 - 00;27;56;16
Unknown
But I mean, when you think about the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, right? And that's what we're we're talking about, you know, what do you think we should be paying attention to as disciple makers? Well, I mean, I mean, we should be paying attention to to the voice of God really nicely. And so, like, you know, if, if you if you like, in parenting, in discipleship, all those things, I feel like the two things that really helped me with the person that really challenged me on this stuff was the two things we need to understand is how to hear God.

00;27;56;18 - 00;28;29;04
Unknown
Like how to hear God and and understand who we are. So hearing God and the truth of who you are like that's to me, is that the key thing and what Jesus is doing with the disciples, if that's what he's teaching them, right? How to how to hear the voice of God and understand who they are. And then when they when they kind of get that, then he said, it's better that I'm not with you because I'm going to give you a deeper, a deeper capacity to hear and know it's in the mind of Christ.

00;28;29;06 - 00;28;48;11
Unknown
And then you can go and give that away. So I yeah, to me, that's what it is. What does it mean to hear God to be a relational. And I you know, we learn by experience. We don't learn by reading something in a book. I can't learn to ride a bike by reading it in a book. Oh, I read this book on bike riding.

00;28;48;11 - 00;29;28;21
Unknown
No, I'm an expert bike rider. You know, you have to get on the bike and you have to fall off. I would think in neuroscience it's not exact. There's a lot of mystery to it. And the mystery just means that there's this endless no ability. So when we think of him saying the spirit leading us into all truth, we do have in Scripture what is true about God and so when we are listening for that word of truth in as the spirit speaks to us, and for some people it's going to be pictures, images, feelings that God uses all of our senses to perceive him.

00;29;28;24 - 00;29;50;24
Unknown
You know, we can say, here's what we know. Know is true. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So I just think something is making me feel really guilty. but there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Okay. Right. It's not a sense that comes from God. Okay, so maybe I need to process this process.

00;29;50;24 - 00;30;15;27
Unknown
This was someone who knows a little bit more about it, who or who's just on the same journey. Right? We we can't sit alone in a room with our identity and expect it to grow and develop. We have to have a community, like minded community pursuing these things. So when we're searching for truth, you use what the Scripture tells us as a guideline because it's going to be a little different.

00;30;15;27 - 00;30;37;02
Unknown
It's messy, you know, it's messy. And, yeah, what what does the Scripture say about what you're sensing? You feel like you're supposed to move, just move to a different city. Just go, and you can't get it out of your head. Is this God's speaking to your heart? Is he inviting you into something? Well, let's look at the scriptures.

00;30;37;06 - 00;31;09;19
Unknown
Did people in Scripture move and not know what they were going to? Yeah. Hello, Abraham. Hello. You know. Yes. So this is in line with Scripture beget in a community so they can help you process that and that, that search for truth. But if you're in a false identity mire down and these things getting your identity, like Jamie said from other people's opinions of you, what you have and what you do, that's not true.

00;31;09;19 - 00;31;41;10
Unknown
Those things are not at the core. What what truth is truth sets you free. Truth is love. You know, truth is is God. God is the way, the truth and the life. Right? so, so good. Yes. Right. So, it just ministers to my soul to even, you know, here you guys share. Share that right. Discipleship is a community endeavor, as is hearing from God and testing a word is a group assignment.

00;31;41;12 - 00;32;06;15
Unknown
Amen. Right. so what are you guys watching for, looking for in this next season? for the body of Christ. Is as we're starting to have, you know, these conversations maybe even maybe more openly discipleship the the the hunger for discipleship. has increased more than, you know, has in the last 20 years. And what are you what are you guys looking for?

00;32;06;18 - 00;32;33;03
Unknown
as the move of God for here for this next season? Yeah. I think, you know, we're we're in a unique time period where people are tired of traditional ways. that, you know, the last decades of Christianity we have, we're just seeing a lot of change. The, they're tired with how it's been, and they're looking for something new.

00;32;33;03 - 00;32;57;09
Unknown
And so we're in a time of reevaluating what what have we been doing? And does it line up with Scripture and is it working with culture now? This you know, the principles of God are unchanging. God is unchanging, but the culture is always changing. And so we have to adapt what we're thinking. we have to innovate, right?

00;32;57;09 - 00;33;27;00
Unknown
Are we? How can we read the Bible differently than we read it now? Can we do ministry differently than we're doing it now? That's more effective and has more of an impact on transfer formation? Like Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. He did not invent Christianity. He came right. Militate. Spiritual transformation among people that were walking in a false identity.

00;33;27;00 - 00;33;54;03
Unknown
Look at the Samaritan woman. Look at the garrison demoniac. Look at all the disciples. Right? He's he's facilitate spiritual transformation that leads identity, that leads to destiny. And I think people are really hungry for this kind of authenticity that they haven't seen. I think they're tired of like, celebrity Christians. And I think they're tired of the status quo, of doing things the same old way.

00;33;54;06 - 00;34;18;13
Unknown
And so, I feel like there's a real move of God, that we want to help empower people to learn to hear from God, to learn to live fearlessly in their true identity. And then you figure out what your sphere of influence needs. You have the power and the authority and the capacity with God to figure it out and to innovate.

00;34;18;13 - 00;34;49;20
Unknown
What's going to impact your sphere of influence? You know, we we we have six grandchildren. So the world they're growing up in is so different than the world. We raised their parents, you know, our own kids to be in and especially with technology and social media and, you know, all the changes that are happening around gender and, but it's recognizing that God is going to give them the grace for their generation.

00;34;49;23 - 00;35;15;07
Unknown
how can we help them understand transformation in a new way? How can we help them understand church in a new way so that they are powerhouses for transformation to their sphere of influence? Yeah, I think the scripture, I think the Scripture is the beauty of the scriptures that tells us we see it's like a book of case studies, really of human case studies, and we get to learn from them.

00;35;15;09 - 00;35;39;10
Unknown
And one thing it shows is when you hit an obstacle as a human, the way through the obstacle is contemplation. First, that leads to innovation. Yeah. So contemplation, which we've lost. So contemplation leads to innovation. There's no other creative process in any endeavor. Through all of history has involved contemplation in physics and everything. And what I think it's what you're doing in neuroscience.

00;35;39;11 - 00;36;00;09
Unknown
I love that you're doing it. We're bringing back contemplation, going what? We don't know how this works. I mean, this doesn't work, which leads to innovation. And so so we just had a medical person here is teaching in a major medical university who stood up in front of his team. And he said, the health care system in the United States is broken and it's not a good system.

00;36;00;15 - 00;36;21;24
Unknown
And so what we're doing currently is putting students, medical students in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, and then putting them in a system that we know is broken and we're making money off of it. And he said, frankly, I'm ashamed of my part in this, that kind of truth telling is we need because that kind of truth telling says this system is broken.

00;36;21;24 - 00;36;43;10
Unknown
It doesn't work. And we're still just going to do it because we figured out how to make money out of it. So to stop that tricked out, to back up, contemplate, and ask God for a new way to do things is called repentance. It's just. Yep. Metanoia right there. Exactly. And then that repentance leads to metamorphic the, the, the forming of new things.

00;36;43;13 - 00;37;02;18
Unknown
And so all of that neuroscience is involved in like even how we think about doing that stuff. So we got to think about how we think about doing stuff. Right. And and there you are. That's what your job is. I mean, seriously, when we first if you could do that, that would speed this up when we first. Yeah I'm trying I'm trying guys.

00;37;02;18 - 00;37;30;01
Unknown
But when we enter into this nobody talked about neural pathways and neuroplasticity. And now we realize like we need to intentionally engage in practices that help us transform. And it's actually changing those neural pathways. Like we can change our brains. Of course, you can explain this way better than I can, but we didn't know that when we first it was considered bad, wrong.

00;37;30;07 - 00;37;54;29
Unknown
And now it's like science. Hey guys, science really backs this up. You know they're right. All right. I just wanted to work smarter, not harder. Right. Because everybody's tired and we've been doing it the hard way, which is a very low success rate for a really long time. And I think we haven't been practicing and teaching the skills that God in created us to learn and transform, which is actually a lot easier.

00;37;55;06 - 00;38;15;26
Unknown
His rest. It has involved rest in peace and just living out of from the inside out in our identity, which in the brain is autobiographical memory and autobiographical memory. When that changes, it changes us from the inside out. And you don't have to think your way into it and wiggle your way into it. So I just think we've been we were working really hard for a long time in the wrong direction.

00;38;15;29 - 00;38;42;16
Unknown
Yeah. So I assume information thinking if we just know more, that will change. We don't need more information. We need like Jamie said, that contemplation. Yeah. That we would receive revelation. and is experiential and that's what changes us. Information just leads to more stuff in your head, you know. So we're looking forward to you, publishing something on this.

00;38;42;16 - 00;39;10;27
Unknown
So what are you know, I have a book coming out maybe, like. Yeah, we need it. Very excited. We're very excited. Oh, I love all the stuff you guys do as well with the identity exchange and just that, Oh, man, you guys are doing so much work in so many places that really bringing good news of who God created people to be in places where it may feel strange to bring the good news.

00;39;11;00 - 00;39;33;11
Unknown
And yet and yet it it comforts people. It brings water to their soul. And so I'm such a fan of everything that you guys do. And, Yeah. And so if our listeners want to find out more, what's the what's the best website for them to go to? So we have, website called Identity exchange.com, just like it sounds.

00;39;33;11 - 00;39;56;21
Unknown
And it's a.com and we have resources on there. If you want to dive deeper into understanding identity, we have coaches that can help you. you can book a session with the coach Jamie. Also this is all on the website has a book that came out last June called Living Fearless. Is that right? Living fearless, where I say living fearlessly in your true identity.

00;39;56;21 - 00;40;18;22
Unknown
But, the book is called Living Fearless. you can get it on Amazon. It's published by Baker. You can go to Baker and get it, I think with, a bit of a discount and yeah, it's all on the website. We do corporate work as well. That's identity method.com. So yeah, it's pretty. We can follow us on social media.

00;40;18;22 - 00;40;39;16
Unknown
The Jamie Winship on Instagram, Identity Exchange on Instagram. That's awesome. We'll put those in the show notes as well. So it's been so great to have you guys. We'll have to think about this and do this again just because it's nice to meet people who have that same obscure way of thinking about things that I do, it makes me feel less alone.

00;40;39;16 - 00;41;04;21
Unknown
So you guys make me feel, seen. Yeah, well, we're big followers of you, and we're excited to see what comes, reality. Yeah. Your identity is your gift to the world, so give it. Amen. Identity is the source of our anointing. And when we're in it, people experience it as anointing. So. Amen. All right. Well thanks guys.

00;41;04;21 - 00;41;09;25
Unknown
Appreciate having you on today. Yeah. Thanks for having us.