00;00;00;00 - 00;00;33;04
Unknown
Just. Hi and welcome. I'm Jesse Cruickshank. This, joining me today is the one, the only Andrew Arnold. And so I'm so excited to introduce Andrew to all of you out there. If you've been listening to me for a while or following me for a while, you have heard me talk about the wilderness ministry. And if I were smart and tech able, there would be sound effects.

00;00;33;04 - 00;00;56;06
Unknown
Every time I said that. Like I would have a button that I would push and there would be, wolf howl or coyotes chipping or, you know, an eagle and no, an eagle, an elk bugle. I think, you know, you like you like the elk bugle there. But Andrew is the, person. Andrew and Josh are who I co-led the Wilderness ministry.

00;00;56;06 - 00;01;25;13
Unknown
So the Wilderness Ministry has a name? Well, it is solid Rock Outdoor Ministries, affectionately known as rom SRO which is the acronym there. So Andrew is my brother in the Lord, and we have served together for a very long time in the good, the bad, a lot of the ugly and we cut our teeth together in full time ministry at the ripe old ages of 22, 23, 24.

00;01;25;17 - 00;01;57;12
Unknown
Wow wow. Babies, babies, men. Then you were babies having babies. But, yeah. So I'm so excited to introduce you to our audience and and, Andrew, I let me just kind of start with, giving you the opportunity to just share a little bit about what the what solid rock does and the wilderness ministry and kind of how how we thought about discipleship there from the beginning, discovered, fell into led by the Lord.

00;01;57;12 - 00;02;22;29
Unknown
But, maybe, maybe introduce the ministry and the paradigm of the ministry to the. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Thanks, Jesse. Yeah, it's great to be here. Be great to be with you, as always. Just to be, in conversation and have that connection and just talk about things that are important to our hearts, things that we value, things that are meaningful and significant, transcendent, if you will.

00;02;23;01 - 00;02;39;29
Unknown
That's always a joy and always brings joy to my heart to be able to do that. So it's great to be here and great to use your audience. Yeah. And a little bit about solid Rock out to our ministries. I don't know how much you shared on the podcast, but it was a it was a ministry started by my dad in 1983.

00;02;39;29 - 00;03;22;09
Unknown
So 41 years ago. And, really his vision, the vision he felt like the Lord gave him was that the wilderness should be a context for people to come and be equipped well, to either, come to know the Lord for the first time. So like this evangelistic event and prospect or, focus and or if they know the Lord to come and grow in their connection, their relationship, deepen their their followership or their discipleship of Jesus because of their time in the wilderness and then because of of that deepening of discipleship or that connection to Christ for the first time, they would then go back to their communities and be points of light.

00;03;22;09 - 00;03;43;27
Unknown
That is to say, they would bring what God deposited in their hearts in the woodlands. They bring that DNA, if you will. They bring that insight, that revelation and influence their spheres of community. They would become leaders of light or points of light, points of influence in their community. And that was the really the original vision that, my dad felt like the Lord gave him.

00;03;43;27 - 00;04;08;17
Unknown
And we've been doing that ever since. Essentially, we've been bringing people from all over the country and all over the world to go on wilderness. We call them wilderness ministry trips to be equipped, to be discipled, to grow and deepen in the revelation of who God is, who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is, and then take take what's deposited in them by the Trinity in the wilderness and, and go back to their communities.

00;04;08;19 - 00;04;36;09
Unknown
And it's always been what we would call experiential. That is to say, it's it's always something that a person experiences at, like a heart, soul, spirit level. And when you experience something, when you know that, you know, then you can never really forget that you can never, not really hard, really hard to unlearn. But an epiphany is very challenging, right?

00;04;36;12 - 00;05;15;29
Unknown
Yeah. And so it's, you know, so you and I are very passionate about this, but the model is experi essential discipleship. It's experiential, not just educational experience or discipleship. So it's it's it's it's experience more than it's just taught. It's not just informational. It's it's like this. It's a sense of of reality. And so that's always been really meaningful because, people have contacted us, you know, five, ten, 15, 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later, and said that trip that time I encountered God, that time I heard God for the first time, that time I, you know, got out of my comfort zone.

00;05;15;29 - 00;05;35;16
Unknown
That time I took that step of faith that a time I trusted, whatever it may be that they did in the wilderness that became like that Ebenezer, that memorial stone that shaped me and, like, shaped the trajectory of my life. For the next season of life or even that some some people say for the rest of my life.

00;05;35;19 - 00;06;00;09
Unknown
So it's really pretty powerful. Yeah. And I think, I think one of the things for me, realizing how spoiled we were and how spoiled you continued to be, to sit in that environment and to see, wow, every person on this course or almost everybody, like there are people who don't get impacted that way, but they're they're very few and they have to work really hard.

00;06;00;12 - 00;06;26;25
Unknown
So having impacted, substantially in a way that changes their life forever. So just see that on every course with every person who comes and to just know how universally possible it is. Yeah. When we allow the Holy Spirit to be in charge and we partner with that, I mean, we we can talk through some of the things that we do to that, that we learned about how to partner with that.

00;06;26;25 - 00;06;52;15
Unknown
But like, I just I took it for granted that of course, everyone experiences discipleship this way. Of course, everyone experiences life change. And and as instructors, we we had an ethic and a value, a part of also going through all the exercises. Right. So when you do a devo, when you do a reflection exercise, you participate fully in that, which means you're getting changed every course as well.

00;06;52;15 - 00;07;26;08
Unknown
So we just right this amazing accelerated immersion, you know, epiphany every course. Yeah. You know, truly. And yeah, I got, I got, I got spoiled and I didn't know how unique it was. Like, I think that's one of the things that has been shocking to me ever since the Lord moved me, down to Denver. Is I just how rare that can be for other people when I know how possible and common place it could be?

00;07;26;10 - 00;07;46;07
Unknown
Yeah. So we're disciple making communities. Yeah. So it's not because it's not like we were magical or anointed or. No, I mean, I mean, I think we're anointed, but, like, it's not like we we were we were young. We didn't know what we were doing. So it's not like we had an earned, you know, profound anointing that some other that some other people can carry.

00;07;46;09 - 00;08;06;03
Unknown
Right. So it wasn't us I think I can preach, we can be sure of that. But we've seen ourselves. So what do you think? What do you think about like what are some of the things that you learned in being in this and convictions that you've developed? Yeah. Yeah. That maybe the rest of. Yeah, there's so many.

00;08;06;08 - 00;08;34;21
Unknown
I mean, there's so, so many and I, and I resonate with what you're sharing of like, wow, I didn't realize one how, like special the context was that we're in and we're in and how it can be challenging to transfer some of the of that. What happened to other more traditional settings of discipleship. And and so that's some of what I'm hearing with what you're saying.

00;08;34;21 - 00;08;58;15
Unknown
It's like, okay, we were experiencing this in the wilderness. And yet and it seems like there's there are at times it's challenging to then reproduce that in other more, common or traditional settings of maybe like a small group setting or a church setting or a men's group setting or a women's group, that kind of thing. And I hear that and I'm also very passionate about how to do this.

00;08;58;20 - 00;09;31;10
Unknown
You know, at my local church level, how do I how do I include myself in, communities of faith and discipleship to be a participant and to be, maybe a facilitator or a co facilitator with other people in the Holy Spirit. So there's always this dynamic of how do I enter in fully and wholeheartedly, and then also know that I'm wanting to be intentional with the time and the space for other people as well.

00;09;31;13 - 00;10;13;18
Unknown
So I think, I mean, honestly, one year, I think at one basic level, to your answer, your question is like, how do I and how do we cultivate humility, humility to enter into spaces to say, I'm going to be discipled by you as much as I'm going to be a disciple of you. So in a sense, like, how do we co create or co join one another with mutuality, even if, even if the relationship at some level isn't entirely mutual, you know, maybe that's based on age, maybe that's based on experience, maybe that's based on even honestly, sometimes position in roles is, you know, based because of churches and whatnot.

00;10;13;20 - 00;10;34;21
Unknown
So maybe the relationship isn't entirely mutual, but how do we enter in, in such space that humility that says, I can receive from my son, who's a teenager as much as I can receive from a man or a woman who's 60 or 70 in the church that's been walking with the Lord for 40, 50 years. And I think the key there's humility.

00;10;34;23 - 00;11;03;17
Unknown
And it's recognizing that beautiful verse in Scripture that says, this, this we all have that Christ came to reveal this great mystery, which is what Christ in you, the hope of glory that you as a believer carry. Christ, my son, who's 16, carries Christ, older, a couple in the church who's 70 or 80 carry Christ. And every time I'm with you or with them, there's an opportunity for Christ to come through them and minister to me.

00;11;03;19 - 00;11;20;25
Unknown
And so do I have the awareness, the attunement, the humility to say, oh, that's Christ. I want to pay attention to that. Oh, that's so good. And then and then and Christ is coming through me to say, oh, I feel, I sense this is Christ coming through me to them and whether they want to receive or not, that's their choice.

00;11;20;25 - 00;11;38;15
Unknown
But it's not me. I can kind of like remove myself at some degree from that and say, hey, this is Christ. I don't I don't need to take credit for this or, you know, be offended if you don't listen. Be offended if you don't listen or have my identity overly connected to whether or not you're responding to Christ in me anyway.

00;11;38;15 - 00;12;07;15
Unknown
So that's a lot. But those are some initial thoughts. No, that's so good. Because I guess I was saying your dad taught me that being, you know, positionally, the chair of the board and mentoring. And yet he had his bad days. And so he was he was receptive to receiving. And so, you know, there was a, a mutual it was the first time I was introduced to mutuality in that, in that dynamic and in that relationship.

00;12;07;15 - 00;12;43;08
Unknown
And yeah, it wasn't entirely mutual. But yeah, who's willing to receive for me? Rebecca says first time I was introduced to that concept, but then as you were talking, it was making me think of like, how many times in my head I would be so mad at you because like, organizationally, logistically, like something was super frustrating me. And yet I learned and we had I had a practice of separating that relationship from when Christ would minister to me through you.

00;12;43;10 - 00;13;08;24
Unknown
Right? So I could dude, we were so like raw and unpolished that it was easy to tell the whole flesh or the like, the human part from the Christ part. And so while I would fight you on, the human part could totally receive and be received from you in the Christ part. Yeah. And that and that both. And I mean, it's a bit of a differentiation.

00;13;08;24 - 00;13;38;07
Unknown
And I think when we're less mature, it's more obvious or in, in maturity it becomes super obvious. Yeah. Which is fine. It's fine. But yeah, learn that, learn that, practice that, that Jesus can speak through us and minister to our souls and each other, even while we may be going at it and being like on different pages on something organizationally, you know, organizational management dynamic, right.

00;13;38;07 - 00;13;58;29
Unknown
An example, just just last night, I was with a group of guys, two other guys. We meet weekly. They're guys in my church, and one of them was sharing some things. He was processing some things, and, you know, he he'd been holding some really hard things. It was really challenging. It was some of it related to the church, some was related to my leadership, some of it's related to people I really care about.

00;13;59;01 - 00;14;25;11
Unknown
Some of it's related to him. And he's processing all this. And as he's sharing, I'm like going through like these self checks of like, okay, I need to clarify with him what he just said there. I'm I'm feeling defensive now about what he said. What's going on there for me. Oh wow. That's that's Christ in him. I need to receive that even though I'm feeling defensive and and and so we work through that together.

00;14;25;11 - 00;14;55;13
Unknown
We talk through that together. And in the end I've, I think to your point, he can have his perspective is and what he experienced. We could I could differentiate it from my perspective and what I experienced, I could glean from what Christ was sharing to me from him. And I could say, and we disagree on some things, and that's okay, because some of it was his own, for lack of a better word, in maturity, his delivery, his own stuff that he's working with that was impacting me.

00;14;55;13 - 00;15;23;00
Unknown
And I don't need to own that. I don't need to take responsibility for that. And it's just what you said. It's like there's a humanness and there's a Christ, and it's it all can come together in one package, and it's like slowing down, being humble, receiving and also not being overly a being more curious than, judgmental and more curious than defensive to say, now, what exactly does he mean by that?

00;15;23;00 - 00;15;48;25
Unknown
I want to know more because I think there's something there. But my temptation is to just put up a wall right now. Does that make sense? But I mean, to me, totally. But because it's a different type of repair, right? It's not a repair that we are 100% God on the same page and agreed. But we can at least see reality from each other and and what it was just making me think of as I can imagine who you might be talking to.

00;15;48;28 - 00;16;11;22
Unknown
Right. Is that I never I just realized this. So this is like a real time thing. And every time we talk, I realize all the assumptions. I the amazing assumptions I had, when we were young and in ministry, I never questioned anybody's heart. Yeah, I was I'm realizing that right now. Like. Like if I'm thinking about who you're who you're talking about, and I mean, like, of course I want to receive from them.

00;16;11;22 - 00;16;31;26
Unknown
Like, I trust their heart. I trust, yeah, I trust their love. It may be imperfect love. It may be immature love. But, like, if I think about you, I think about your family. I think about Josh. I even think about our instructors. Yeah. I never was suspicious of their heart. Yeah, okay. I can that's a really good point.

00;16;31;28 - 00;16;55;13
Unknown
And so so there there was always an impetus and a value in sorting through that. Right. Because I of course I wanted to receive what was Christ, didn't you. Of course I did. Of course it was worth it to sort through and differentiate and figure out what's my stuff and and what's yours stuff I don't need. And what is God talking to us and shaping us through each other?

00;16;55;13 - 00;17;19;05
Unknown
So there there was this assumption, like I said, just realizing this right now, the people were always for me. Yeah, that is so true. That is so true. And I think that so yeah, people live in a world like that world. So I think you're right, I think so that's a that's a big topic right there. But I will say this and I'll piggyback off that in two ways.

00;17;19;05 - 00;17;48;23
Unknown
I totally agree with you because we could disagree. We could, argue Maya maturities could, impact you. You're in your immature is can impact me vice versa. And yet at the end of the day, we, we did. We share this trust. We share this love for for one another and this love for Christ that would say, and in spite of all that, we we have this.

00;17;48;26 - 00;18;31;13
Unknown
Yeah, mutual trust and love. And because of that, Christ can move in and through us, impact us, move through us, impact other people. And it was really beautiful. Now I will say this, I think as we're thinking about creating communities of discipleship and communities of where we can receive from Christ in one another in mutual ways, that this idea of like safety and trust is really important, because what you were describing, I think, at one level was like, I felt safe and because I felt safe, there was enough shared trust in history that I could slow down to receive, or I could be both upset and I could receive at the same time, so to

00;18;31;13 - 00;18;50;22
Unknown
speak. I could be I could be overwhelmed, but I could also be, find peace in the midst of that, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that's so key. Like, one of the things that we're doing in the wilderness and one of the things that I'm aspiring to do, and I feel like I am moving towards and doing in my local church, is how do we create like containers?

00;18;50;28 - 00;19;17;09
Unknown
If you want to think of like a container that is a boundary, need spaces where people can enter in. There's expectations. There's there's well, there's boundaries that hold the community up to, to allow people to enter in with trust, allow people to enter in in such a way that they can be transparent, open, vulnerable and move towards trust with other people.

00;19;17;11 - 00;19;44;05
Unknown
If the communities were in our creating and intentionally thinking about boundaries or containers of safety and trust, it's going to be really, really hard. Yeah, to move towards like authentic discipleship, in my opinion, in my experience. But if we can do that, wow. We we if we can do that, we don't need to be like the, the facilitator of discipleship.

00;19;44;05 - 00;20;14;24
Unknown
The community itself will be the vessels of discipleship, the vessels of Christ. And that's beautiful. That's amazing. It is, it is. And because everybody like you can't assume that there's trust, you can't assume correct any of that. You have to build it. You have to you have to build it from an assumption of negative right. That that there's something there's something in there to be repaired and, and then trust built.

00;20;14;26 - 00;20;39;20
Unknown
So whether it's with the, with the individuals or just the placeholders that the individuals have, whether it's with church, whether it's with God, whether it's with, you know, yeah, past relationships, there's a lot of repair that has to go on first in order to, to build that. But yeah, that's why I'm just like shocked that, okay, I definitely understand that now.

00;20;39;22 - 00;21;07;29
Unknown
Right. I didn't come in with that kind of baggage, but maybe that's because we knew each other since we were kids and that just the family relationship dynamic, I think that's part of. Yeah, I think that's part of it. So you and I talked about this because I think to when, when, when we can create places and communities that are, safe and trustworthy or that have safety and trust, then we can empower people to take risks.

00;21;08;02 - 00;21;38;29
Unknown
We can empower people to be brave and take risks, to move towards Christ, to move towards, these like desires and longings that Christ has put in their heart that we can move towards, like becoming more Christ like in freedom and life and and goodness rather than, you know, communities that don't create safety and trust that we can't be brave, then we have to do it out of almost compulsion or to fit in or we have to put on mask.

00;21;38;29 - 00;22;03;09
Unknown
And there's so many other things that come in, make so many like parting coping mechanisms, your part, your soul in order to do that. Correct. Exactly, exactly. And that's no good. That's that's not that's that. There's more, there's more. We can expand that. There's so much more for us as Christ followers. Yeah. What did so good, bro? I always love talking to you.

00;22;03;12 - 00;22;41;01
Unknown
Maybe. Yeah. We talked about. Yeah. We would just talk all the time. We were all fascinating how much, you know, we've learned together. I think for me, sharing with people what is possible because I've seen it, learned it, encountered it was developed in the community that that trauma is a part of, you know, it's it's a piece of that faith community, the faith community that is, built and initiated by your dad and your uncle, your dad, your mom, your aunt, uncle, and, you know, it's it's so much bigger than them now, and it's so expansive in.

00;22;41;04 - 00;23;10;12
Unknown
It's just such a it's such a phenomenal blessing. But if you could go back to, you know, 2004, 2005, right, right, right. What what do you think your assumptions were around every person being a disciple maker? Did you even think about it in terms like that? Or how did you think about discipleship as you as you go back to the our, our, our baby days?

00;23;10;14 - 00;23;39;03
Unknown
Yeah, it's a great question because I think back then, I think we but certainly I'll speak for myself, but I, I believe you since share this as well. I think we had a belief or a faith or a confidence, but it was an unspoken, maybe even unarticulated belief that really everybody could be a disciple and could make a disciple.

00;23;39;03 - 00;24;14;05
Unknown
Everybody could be a leader at some level. Everybody could have influence. And I mean, I think we just started from that and and we just I mean, that was like our working assumption so that if we didn't even state that necessarily explicitly, but just that were true, then we just assumed at some level that that was a part of every person that that was honestly like a design of every person that you could be disciple and you could be a disciple learner, you could be a disciple, make a disciple.

00;24;14;07 - 00;24;33;18
Unknown
Right? Because your dad the points of light, right? Of course, everyone's a light. There's not like, right. There was there was some dynamics in those points of light. It was just pips, which means everyone is a point of light. There's not a correct. Yeah. I mean, Jesus said, I mean, right, go and make disciples. So that was a universal commissioning.

00;24;33;20 - 00;24;54;01
Unknown
It wasn't like some people were going to go make disciples, or only a few people were going to be qualified enough to make disciples. It was like, no, no, you've been disciple, go make a disciple. And he was saying that as we know, to like a fairly I mean, honestly, at the time, pretty immature group of people. And you say, now go make a disciple.

00;24;54;03 - 00;25;16;13
Unknown
And I'm not. So I'm not saying, oh, we just like, we just want to send out immature people to be disciple makers. But we I think there's just a tremendous opportunity to empower people and say, hey, Jesus. Well, first of all, let's start with the assumption that Jesus deeply loves us. He's with us. He's Emmanuel. He's connected with us.

00;25;16;16 - 00;25;37;23
Unknown
He wants to be with us. He wants to speak to us. He wants to love us. He wants to minister to us. He's here. And so how do we connect with Jesus here from Jesus? And then in a sense, like, follow what Jesus is asking of us and pretty in a sense, it's simple. It's it's it is simple.

00;25;37;23 - 00;25;57;29
Unknown
It is simple. And everybody can do that. Everybody can do that and everybody can empower somebody else to do that. And that's, that's what we believe. We believed it back then, and we believe it now. And so now. So then it's just creating opportunities for people to connect with Jesus, hear from Jesus, act on the things that Jesus is, putting in their hearts already.

00;25;57;29 - 00;26;18;10
Unknown
They're probably already in their hearts. They're either either not aware of them or they've forgotten them, whatever that may be, and then and then empowering them to like, move towards those things that are already in their hearts that Christ has already has in there. And so so that's our that was our assumption. That was our, in a sense, working model.

00;26;18;13 - 00;26;43;00
Unknown
And so we were we were that. Yeah, we were that I had, I had training and education and botany and sofas, zoology, physiology you training and classics. Neither of us had formal leadership training, formal Bible training. Right. We just had a wilderness skills and that's good. You know, a decent heads on our shoulders, I guess. Yeah. But yeah, decent.

00;26;43;03 - 00;27;07;12
Unknown
But it's not like we came through a pipeline, right? We we didn't come through a developmental pipeline or anything like that. We were just your dad, like the biggest risk taker I've ever seen on people because he was just throwing people into like, okay, go lead the trip here. Like, people do that, like I trust Jesus, go, yeah, and we're still doing that today.

00;27;07;12 - 00;27;35;04
Unknown
Honestly, we're still doing that. We just prayed for a group of instructors that are leading one of our 20 day trips. Two of them are leading. They've never led a 20 day trip. And you know, in our pre in our lead up to the 20 day trip, we I believe we have a culture of where people can show up in such a way that they can show up authentically, vulnerably, whatever that looks like for them.

00;27;35;06 - 00;27;59;02
Unknown
And, and so in the lead up, we're having conversations with one of the leaders in particular, and you could just tell, like, he was feeling the pressure he was feeling, the way he was feeling the insecurity of like, how am I going to be for 20 days? And do I have to? In a sense, he wasn't saying it, but it's like I've been mentored and I've seen so much modeling of all the other instructors that have come before me and it's like, how do I be them?

00;27;59;05 - 00;28;16;06
Unknown
And so we just spend time just processing that and ultimately just praying for him. It's like, hey, you have been uniquely equipped by Jesus and the Holy Spirit to lead in such a way that's unique to you. You don't need to be me. You don't need to be this person. You don't need to be that person. You don't.

00;28;16;10 - 00;28;37;23
Unknown
But you be who Christ has made you to be and out of the overflow of that, you will have impact. You will have. You will impact lives because it's Christ flowing out of you, because you are living and leading in your most authentic true self. And what I mean by that is the person God has made you to be.

00;28;37;26 - 00;28;57;17
Unknown
So Lisa, from that place don't, don't, don't be anybody else but that and people will be impacted and right. And that's what we're trying to do. That's what we're trying to do. So so I try to teach that all over the world. And it's an interesting conversation to have, because it's built on so many different assumptions that people don't actually have.

00;28;57;18 - 00;29;31;22
Unknown
They've been taught other things, right. They've been taught that there's only certain, qualities to leadership. They've been taught that leadership looks a certain way, that it like and so from, from, for me, I would say that so many leadership pipelines in in dynamics but come from a non kingdom perspective. I'm not saying a bad perspective in that because I was in the business world for a hot minute and like, it's okay, it doesn't mean it's evil, but it's not kingdom right.

00;29;31;24 - 00;29;56;28
Unknown
And to so to me, all of all of that non kingdom leadership training is really like Saul's armor because it's not teaching people to be the version of themselves. Right? The leader version of them, the way that God created them to impact the world out of who like, like I don't think that God looks at people and go, wow, I really screwed up on that one.

00;29;56;28 - 00;30;29;26
Unknown
I hope they work really hard over their life to overcome all the inadequacies I gave them. Right? Like, I don't I don't think God makes mistakes in the personalities that he gives us. Yes, it's our privilege in life thing to like, both to experience the redeemed version of that and to lean into the positive of it. So the question that I have for you, when did when because because nobody I mean, it's not a common paradigm of what leadership is.

00;30;29;29 - 00;30;52;24
Unknown
And yet we had a leadership program. We trained and taught and people for leadership. Where did some of where did some of those paradigms come for you? So let me just give me a like an example. Like I remember we were looking at some stuff from NOLs, we were looking at their model of leadership, right? The self leadership, the leadership of others, the leadership of the group, you know, things like that.

00;30;52;24 - 00;31;13;29
Unknown
And I remember looking at that and I think at the same time, we had taken the desk and I looked at the union version of leadership, which I fit. But a lot of our staff didn't. And in talking with some of our instructors, let's say an Alyssa or a Rachel, and they write, they felt inadequate as leaders because they didn't fit that archetype up.

00;31;14;01 - 00;31;34;12
Unknown
Right. And and as I sat with the Lord with that, I was like, well, I know they're called here to do that. Like, that is clear. And they have amazing things that they can do. So there must be something wrong with the archetype paradigm, right? There must be something wrong with this idea that leadership only looks a certain way, and we start leaning on the past instead.

00;31;34;12 - 00;32;01;29
Unknown
The apostle prophet I'm Angel shepherd teacher that there's leadership versions of each of that and redefining what that was, what you brought to your responsibility of of of facilitating and leading. Of course, apart from a static, predetermined archetype. Right. And that was that was a pretty revelation, pretty big revelation for me because I fit it right. Josh fit it.

00;32;01;29 - 00;32;26;08
Unknown
I could be Alpha. Josh could be Alpha. And and yet that wasn't the rest of everybody nor. Right. Exactly. And I and I was I felt awful about their insecurities and I wondered what I, you know I like started to go, what am I modeling that's wrong here? What am I what am I imprinting and teaching them that's wrong here that causes them to doubt themselves.

00;32;26;08 - 00;32;47;07
Unknown
When I know that, I know that I know that they're called to be here. Yeah. So. So for me, that was kind of some of the explorer. Tori. Yeah. Learnings around that. Like maybe what about for you? Like, what was your. Yeah. Well, I think we, you know, we would start with the, with the beliefs or the reality.

00;32;47;07 - 00;33;13;25
Unknown
Let's I would even say it's reality is not just a belief. We assert with the reality that everybody at some level. Well, everybody. Yeah, everybody is an image bearer. Right. So everybody bears the image of God. That is to say that they have they both reflect and could reflect. Yeah. More like attributes of who God is. So everybody can do that.

00;33;13;27 - 00;33;37;21
Unknown
So I think sometimes when we hear like the passages like, well, you know, somebody has the ear and someone's the hand and someone's the foot and someone's the eye and someone's the mouth, you know, of the body of Christ passage that I think sometimes when we think about that in this paradigm of skills and talents and capacities to do other ministerial.

00;33;37;23 - 00;34;00;26
Unknown
So if I'm the ear, what does that mean? Does that mean I'm the the receptionist? And if I'm the hands that mean I'm the janitor? But if I'm the mouth, does that mean I'm the pastor? Right. And I think that's fine in part. But I think really what it's saying at some level is no, everybody has this way by which they can reflect who God is and who Christ is in a unique, specific way.

00;34;01;00 - 00;34;21;17
Unknown
There's going to be general ways they can do that, but then also unique in specific ways. And so for if we start with that belief in reality, then the process of leadership development is saying, okay, what about Jesse reflects in like a in a general way, but then and also a really unique and specific way who God is.

00;34;21;17 - 00;35;04;06
Unknown
Because if you can live more fully into how you reflect God and Christ, other people, they will be impacted by that. They will say, oh, I didn't mean appearance in God in Jesse. Exactly. Christ is in Christ in us. And and because of that, that's impacting me. That's healing me, that's inspiring me, that's motivating me, that's challenging me, whatever it may be to become more like Jesus, I want to now, as you reflect the best parts of who God's made you to be to other people, then they say, I want to be more like Christ, I want to, I want to discover these things about me, these values, these parts of me, these principles, whatever

00;35;04;06 - 00;35;25;25
Unknown
they mean that that reflect who God is to share with others. So really, we're trying to, in a sense, like, see other people in such a way that what is it about them that uniquely reflects and mirrors the image of God, how God has made? Because you're right, God didn't make mistakes. How did God make them and then empower them to like, lead from that place?

00;35;25;27 - 00;36;00;06
Unknown
Now, does that mean in other areas they're going to have to shore up some gaps or shore up some places where, like that doesn't feel natural, that doesn't feel like this feels natural, this feels hard. Okay. You're going to have to lean into and grow in some of those areas, but then we really want you to like, lean into and like really expand those parts that God made you to be that reflect who he is and, and that frees people up to lead, that frees people up to like, be empowered to, to lead in like, I know this is God to me, this is Christ in me.

00;36;00;08 - 00;36;22;11
Unknown
And so that feels so great to lead from that place. And part of it is we're helping them discover that we're helping them. It's like, hey, we're curious. Like, this seems to be a way by which you like when you lead this way. I sense like God's love. I sense God's affection. I sense God's encouragement. I sense God's hope, wherever that may be.

00;36;22;13 - 00;36;40;03
Unknown
Have you are you aware of that? Have you do you sense that when you lead in this way, does that how does that feel for you? So we're like having these kind of conversations to help them discover that and believe that about themselves. Most people believe, right? They're not doing a good job. They're not adequate. They're not capable.

00;36;40;09 - 00;37;07;20
Unknown
They're they're they're failing all the time. That's what they believe about themselves. Yeah. Yeah. And no, that's not true. Right. Because there's a way that God made you and and when that when you open up and let the Lord move through that it's not a, it's not the absence of you, but it's the it's like the infused supercharged version of you with like, yes, I think of like Captain Marvel.

00;37;07;20 - 00;37;34;13
Unknown
Right. You're like, it's you. But it was like Holy Spirit juju. And. Yeah, and that impacts people in such an amazing way because it's supposed to. Right? Because that's what God did. Right? And so what I love about that, and what I've realized since then is that because of that dynamic, right, because you're going to we want you to discover the leadership version of you gain some skills where you don't have them right.

00;37;34;13 - 00;37;57;14
Unknown
Gain competencies, gain partners. Right. Like like that. You fill the gaps and in different kinds of ways. But everyone got that opportunity. So then the leader version of you doesn't have to be compared to anybody else. Correct. And so as we we created the leader of the day I think that was Josh's baby. Like Josh's thing wherever you might have been.

00;37;57;14 - 00;38;18;25
Unknown
Yeah. This got to practice being a leader of the day. We made them co-leader. Yes. So they. So there wasn't like, you didn't teach out, right? You always lead in teams, right? And I loved that. We just put people in stressful situations to see who they were. Like that was. That was always my fun thing. But, you know, I'm masochistic a little bit.

00;38;18;25 - 00;38;55;12
Unknown
And and so then they got to be a leader and practice leader version of them, again, without the comparison, without the competition, without the status dynamics, because everyone got to do it. Yeah. And so there was no there just wasn't any hierarchy. Yeah. And so we taught leadership with responsibility but absence of hierarchy. Yeah. And the other thing that's been a great learning for me since I've, you know, since the Lord has moved me into to other spaces is just how extraordinarily rare that is.

00;38;55;15 - 00;39;20;14
Unknown
And yeah, you know we co-lead you Josh and I like the instructors had their team right. Everything was done and teams and I don't know I mean I'm just I reflect on that a lot. And I'm wondering what your reflections are because I know it's to explore leadership apart from status and hierarchy. Almost seems contradictory as I say it out loud.

00;39;20;19 - 00;39;39;14
Unknown
And yeah, yeah we did. Yeah. Every course every year now for 40 years. Right. I mean our our our stand your sense now 20 some something years. But I won't do it for you I won't make you feel old. But, But what do you I mean, what do you reflect on that when you think about that? Totally.

00;39;39;19 - 00;40;06;15
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's pretty incredible because, I mean, just from a biblical perspective, right? Jesus had a model for shared leadership from the beginning. Yeah, from the beginning. He had a model, James and John, and then and then you trade with James for the for for, John's brother to Jesus's brother. But you still have the three pillars of the church, right?

00;40;06;15 - 00;40;27;10
Unknown
Shared leadership. Absolutely. And then he sends them out by two. Paul's missionary journey. He always had at least one of the person with him. So that's like that's I mean, so let's just start there that that uses model for leadership and, and even Jesus himself. So some people I think will say, well, Jesus didn't have shared leadership.

00;40;27;10 - 00;40;52;06
Unknown
Yes and no. Yes. He didn't in that he is the Son of God and he is like the high priest and the apostle of the church and all of those things. And yet he's surrounded himself with with community and others that he allowed to impact him. Yeah. And and in some ways, yeah. So we'll just say that.

00;40;52;09 - 00;41;20;22
Unknown
So then from there he said, now you have shared leadership. And I think what's so powerful about that, and so many times through the years, I've had people come and say, well, this is the first time I've really ever led with somebody else. Because really, in a shared leadership, paradigm, not only do the two leaders lead the community, but in a sense, they're having to figure out how do we lead each other, how do we work together to lead and influence and impact each other?

00;41;20;25 - 00;41;44;19
Unknown
And, you know, so they're like, well, I've never had to lead a community with another person that is to say, defer or be mutual. Be aware of how my leadership not only impacts the community but impacts my co-leader. So that's a really important dynamic for people to grow in awareness of. And so, so many times. Right. So many times the learning is not just how do the leaders lead the community, but how do the leaders impact each other.

00;41;44;21 - 00;42;07;05
Unknown
There's so much learning there to say. And and honestly, we've learned through the years do like guided questions and just reflection of like you'll have a leader that just leads, they lead. All we hear is their voice, their leadership, their decision making. The entire day. And then we'll come to the end of the day and we'll say, hey, what was that like for you to co-lead with that other person?

00;42;07;06 - 00;42;31;19
Unknown
What was that experience like? And it's like they're like, they do not say they're like, oh wait, I didn't co-lead. And then we'll ask this person, what was it like to co-lead with this person? And usually it's some sort of dynamic, or this person's been a leader their whole lives. They're real assertive. They're real like authoritative, etc. and this person's usually not led their whole lives, maybe never.

00;42;31;21 - 00;42;52;29
Unknown
And so they're just used to this person leading and they'll say something like, oh, it was really good. We had a great day together. Like we we call it so well together. And then we'll so we'll say, okay, tell us about your experience with your voice today. When did you experience your voice today in leadership. And now they're listening to this reflection.

00;42;53;01 - 00;43;15;01
Unknown
And this person's like, oh, I didn't have a voice today. Oh I, I didn't experience my voice at all today. Okay. What was that like to not have a voice today and yet be asked to lead. Now they're hearing that we're not saying anything about them, but they're just they're just hearing the reflection on this person who actually didn't do any leading today because this person took over.

00;43;15;07 - 00;43;34;01
Unknown
It took over. So then you multiply. So you fast forward a couple more days into the trip. Now maybe they're leading again together. Maybe it doesn't always happen. Right. You know, it's a totally different leadership dynamic because now they're like, oh wow, how do I support your voice? How do we co-lead? How do we do this with mutuality?

00;43;34;07 - 00;43;59;09
Unknown
So there's so much learning there. But that's, that's I think the power of shared leadership because then I can say then you can reflect back to me back in the early days. Hey, actually, I felt like you, you overstep my decisions, you. I said one thing, and you said another thing, and we contradicted each other, so it hurt my credibility or we weren't unified or whatever that may be.

00;43;59;13 - 00;44;20;29
Unknown
It created a lot of confusion for everybody. Or created confusion. Exactly. We didn't have the same expectations. And then I can sit with that and say, yeah, you're right. Or I can sit with that and say, yeah, you're right. And I disagreed with your boundaries. So how can we do that with unity next time? How can we pause and get on the same page and have shared boundaries that we both agree?

00;44;20;29 - 00;44;36;14
Unknown
You know what I mean? So there's so much learning that we did back then and had to work it out before we took it public. Right. You got to you got to work it out before you. Exactly the groove. Exactly. And so then it's like the values of like, hey, let's check in with my co-leader. I'm thinking this.

00;44;36;14 - 00;44;56;27
Unknown
You're thinking this. This is my perspective. This is your perspective. What are you seeing that I'm not seeing? What am I seeing? That you're not seeing who's struggling. Who's who's not. You know. And then we like now we have this more fully formed, right leadership dynamic that actually is unified. And it's it's not me just saying just we're going to do this or are you just saying no, we're going to do this.

00;44;56;27 - 00;45;17;08
Unknown
It's like, no. How do we really, like, work through this so that we both feel like we have agency and voice. We can be unified. And then that's felt by the group. The group feels that the group that in a way that's intuitive and visceral and potentially life changes. So many people see so many of our students through the years.

00;45;17;10 - 00;45;54;06
Unknown
I said, I've never seen instructors co lead with one another where there's humility, mutuality, deference, joy, peace, connection, love that we that sometimes that's the most impactful thing for people on a course, especially if it's a male female pair. Oh I've never seen a male female pair work together with such love and unity and care for us as a community and excellence in their leadership and, you know, etc. etc. etc. that was that's sometimes the most impactful thing.

00;45;54;08 - 00;46;35;12
Unknown
Yeah. So it's super powerful. Yeah. And it's but it takes intentional izing like very stabilizing I think. I think because of our dynamic, I never felt alone in leadership. I never felt the full burden. Right? I always felt like, you know, whether the metaphor is wear all carrying the evac, you know, person out because, you know, that takes a herd of humans to carry out another person on a stretcher, like when we would practice that, or whether it was swapping leads on climbs and just, you know, understanding that people have strengths and weaknesses, but you just you just take turns, you just share it.

00;46;35;12 - 00;47;08;14
Unknown
You share the load because it's a heavy load. You got to share it. I just never I never felt alone in in leadership. So much so that every other place that I have led since then I built shared leadership. Right. Because why would I do this alone? Like, it just doesn't make any sense. It's so true. And I think what I've learned through the years in that is as I've grown and I've I've matured and I've, I've kind of gone through my own journey.

00;47;08;16 - 00;47;28;25
Unknown
I think the thing we're adding now is, is I feel alone. Have I built enough safety and trust with you or my co-leader, whoever that may be, or my team and community to say I feel alone right now. I'm not blaming you. I'm not. This isn't about you, it's just about I'm checking in with myself and I feel alone.

00;47;28;28 - 00;47;52;23
Unknown
And here's here's another mark of maturity. And I need this. Yeah, I need this. That's, a lot of people have a hard time with those two dynamics of saying, I feel alone and I need this dude, we I don't think I learned the I need this part until after after we had that was that was that was what do you think?

00;47;52;23 - 00;48;19;00
Unknown
Yeah. That was a different season for us. Yeah that I that's new for us. Yeah. Yeah I yeah I'm that might be the last five years I can articulate such things. But why that's so hard is because it's so vulnerable. Right. And, and unfortunately many leaders are leading alone. There's not shared leadership. And if there is shared leadership, it's hard to create enough safety and trust to be vulnerable.

00;48;19;02 - 00;48;43;02
Unknown
Say I do feel alone or I do feel angry. I do feel scared, and I need this and have enough boundaries to say, and you don't have to do all of those things for me, and you're not the reason for those things. So we're still together. There's still togetherness. It's not you're the problem or you're the solution because then that becomes, you know, codependent and that can get hard for people.

00;48;43;04 - 00;49;14;24
Unknown
It's just it we're still differentiated. We're still have boundaries, you know, and and yet there's life there to articulate and to share and to be open in such a way that it's healthy, it's life giving, right? It helps you become a mature version of yourself. And that's what that's what I'm I'm just so thankful for. And, you know, I just thankful for you for, like, share and bro, I love you from like, my bones.

00;49;14;26 - 00;49;47;10
Unknown
Likewise I love you and just so appreciate you and all that you're doing. I in some ways are yet to be in like, you know, like in this space that is, you know, the world. I mean, we love the wilderness, but in a, in a space that is, really, really impactful and yet not it's not as long term a trajectory as a species that you're really trying to reach and equip and empower.

00;49;47;13 - 00;50;20;05
Unknown
And so I, I, I love you, and I so appreciate what God's calling you to do because it's so necessary. I'm doing that at a personal level in those in those in my local church. But you're really what I love about you're doing is you're trying to equip leaders in the church and the people of God. So you're kind of doing both, to live out this in such a way that is like long term and in, in those, those challenging spaces of life and family and small group and church.

00;50;20;07 - 00;50;40;11
Unknown
So I so appreciate that and admire you and, and love you and think that's it. A beautiful calling. And in and with you in that as much as I can be. You're with me, bro. I'm not alone I feel I feel it, fill it regularly. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I thank you for your time. It's the summer.

00;50;40;11 - 00;51;03;26
Unknown
Yeah. Thank you for recording this. And you're in the middle in between courses, and, Man, I just appreciate you so much. Yeah. Can hug you, just give you a squeeze. Yeah. Blessing. Thanks, guys. Yeah. All right, well, we're we're praying for the courses. We're praying for the Lord to move in every person's life and the instructors lives.

00;51;03;28 - 00;51;15;16
Unknown
And we're trusting that God's going to do amazing things because he just always does. Yes. So good. Yeah, yeah. Amen. Thanks, brother.