00;00;05;05 - 00;00;42;15
Unknown
All right. Well, welcome. And today, our special guest is Adela Okawa. And this is my friend. I'm so excited to have you as the co-founder of the Love and Unity Project with his wife on air. And she and he they started the 21st Century church there in Cincinnati, Ohio, in 2020. So he's the directional pastor. He also has a decade or over a decade at least, of coaching practitioner, consultant with organizations and churches.

00;00;42;17 - 00;01;06;03
Unknown
And part of your passion, which I love, is looking at personal and system, systemic bias and how we think about our relationships with one another. So thank you so much for being with us today. I'm so excited to have you here. So we're going to open with a question. Okay. Get us started before we go before we go and launch into the conversation.

00;01;06;05 - 00;01;44;10
Unknown
But question ready. If you were a transformer, what what would your transformer name be? So if you turn from a robot into a car and a car back into a robot, what kind of transplant would you be? So if I turned into aa0, say that one more time. So like, like a transformer, like the Decepticons and the robots that turn into a car or like some sort of a human power.

00;01;44;12 - 00;02;07;15
Unknown
So what kind of car will I turn into or what kind of robot would I go back into? What kind of robot would you go back and do? Oh, my God, I don't even I don't know any of the Transformers, so I don't know what I would transform back into as far as growing up in Africa. Well, yes, from yeah, I did not.

00;02;07;17 - 00;02;34;11
Unknown
Oh, my gosh. I guess there's a thing called a Decepticon. I remember the bad ones. Yeah, those are the bad robots or the good ones, the Autobots. Okay, so I think. Oh, man, I think I would definitely be a Autobot for sure. It's in my nature and I don't know the different kinds of Autobots, but I would definitely be an Autobot that, that I could, I could not be a Decepticon.

00;02;34;14 - 00;02;55;07
Unknown
I would have to be Autobot. Yeah. It's just not it's not out in my nature in one bit to want to be. It is epic. No, no. So it would be autobahn is what I would transfer back to. But I don't know the name. I wish. I wish I knew the names, but I don't. Well, what kind of car then do you think you would you would want to be me.

00;02;55;10 - 00;03;20;22
Unknown
That's a good one. I mean. Oh, my word. Oh, okay. So I'll probably be a the the first Hummer, whatever that is, a Hummer H1. I think, you know, it's big enough that you can drive it on civilian territory. Right. But then it's rugged enough that you can go off road and get the job done. So I think for me, I'm always about work.

00;03;20;22 - 00;03;39;24
Unknown
Let's get what are we here for? Let's get it done. So I you know, I couldn't have like a Ferrari because that couldn't do any work. Right. And so I think I would need something like a Hummer H2, like the very the military grade Hummer before they made it all Humvee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's that would be me.

00;03;39;24 - 00;04;03;28
Unknown
That's what I would that would be my my go to right. And it would be able to kind of go underwater a little bit, not too far, but that would be me. So I like the engine snorkel thing. Okay, I'll. All day long. All day long. No rearview mirror either. No rearview mirrors. We're not looking back on the world that we think that we're only going for it.

00;04;03;28 - 00;04;26;21
Unknown
And we'll just use our neck just to look back, like, momentarily. But we're not using that mirror to be looking back. We're we're kicking butt and taking names because we're auto robots or whatever they're called. So. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what would would be. Oh, man, I love it. I love it. That's fantastic. I think, you know, if I think I might actually be a Decepticon, I don't know.

00;04;26;21 - 00;04;50;07
Unknown
I mean, I'd want to be a good one, but I have these traits that sometimes are a little interesting. So, like, my husband sometimes calls me the distractor, like I'm trying to be, you know, socially acceptable, but I can distract people. I can go in and and just take over their conversation. So I don't know, I would be one that needs to be saved.

00;04;50;09 - 00;05;02;13
Unknown
Right, right, right, right. No, I feel you. Actually, I feel you. Well, I don't know. You know, if any of the transformers ever switched sides.

00;05;02;15 - 00;05;36;16
Unknown
Okay. So you can switch sides. Okay. So. Yeah, So you might be a Decepticon and then you turn into, like, a good one, so who knows? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, me without Jesus was probably not an amazing person. So I think all of us keep that would be. Oh, bad. Well, today I have you on and we are going to talk about one of the things that that you and I like to talk about and that is how we're brothers and sisters and and specifically today, brothers and sisters in the Lord.

00;05;36;16 - 00;06;03;20
Unknown
And how that changes the way that we think about power and power dynamics. And and you and Oni have a an organization called the Love Unity Project, where you help work with churches and talk about this. And so I'm wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about what that is to get started so that we have a little more background there on 11 Unity Project.

00;06;03;22 - 00;06;33;15
Unknown
Yeah. So it's real simple in a nutshell. We we partnered with amazing churches and part of ministries focusing on what we would call multi-ethnic ministry in prayer. Holy Spirit spoke to us and said, I have not called you a multiethnic ministry, but I have you the love and unity. Now, mind you, Nia is the primary person in our in our in our work who is really gifted and anointed in that area.

00;06;33;15 - 00;07;03;08
Unknown
Much of my knowledge really comes from her work as a theologian and comes from her work as associate sociologist. I just get the overload of what she's putting years to study, you understand? And so for her, this was ground shaking to hear this. But the reason why this was important and this is how the love and unity really was birthed project was was because when we make multiethnic, the end goal, you may not get love and unity.

00;07;03;10 - 00;07;30;02
Unknown
So you you can have a cold church of the color box of people, black people, yellow people and do all your photo ops and put the Asian-American person on the front cover the bulletin and do all the stuff that you do and that whole church be void of love and unity. John Chapter 17. And so what the Lord showed me is you put love and unity first and people will be treated right equitably.

00;07;30;05 - 00;08;00;26
Unknown
They will not be, and the gender dynamic will be taken care of as well. You put love and unity first. You will get multi-ethnic. And so for us that was a paradigm. So we are we are for multiethnic ministry, however, is the primary the the the the love and unity comes first. And through that, we can't get multiethnic.

00;08;00;26 - 00;08;25;26
Unknown
And so out of that, but loving unity projects deals with three isms racism, classism. And we deal with gender or the sex, the sexism, the dynamics between men and women within within the body of Christ. Primarily, we do work with with businesses what is primarily within the body of Christ. And so those are the three isms that we combat.

00;08;25;26 - 00;08;47;05
Unknown
Any bias that positions one person or group of persons as better than another. And that's the level of Unity project. So whether it's a church who's like, Oh, we want to we want to become more multiethnic and more diverse, we actually help them realize, let's pause. The end goal is loving unity. You will get multiethnic. So that's what that's what it is.

00;08;47;07 - 00;09;14;03
Unknown
I love that. Because I love because it's you just looking at the root. And this is this is what I love about the Love and Unity project is that it looks at the root of how we see the other not like the symptoms of the way that that otherness expresses itself, whether it's, you know, sexism or racism. But if we can actually come down to my brother, my sister, they are not other than me, that that would find its root in the healing of so many things.

00;09;14;03 - 00;09;46;18
Unknown
So I'm wondering, how do you define power dynamics from your vantage point of the way that you that you come at this? What how do you see power dynamics and how do you think about them Between between humans? Between people? Yeah. So I think I first have to admit that this topic that you're highlighting, that you're discussing, that your audience is discussing a process to admit this is a very sensitive topic for me.

00;09;46;18 - 00;10;07;01
Unknown
It is a very sensitive it is a very delicate topic. And I think I also have to admit that for me, I put myself in a posture here as we discuss things like this that I'm always I mean, Hersch would call it Unlearning Metta. No, you're right. I'm always unlearning to relearn. So I think is really adequate for me to preface that.

00;10;07;01 - 00;10;32;11
Unknown
Right? So so when we talk about what do you think about power dynamics, how do you see that? I as I was praying and thinking about this, I realized that in my own experience, much of God's foundational truths, their always and so like, you know, so like so. So if I talk about power dynamics, there's a key that I got to talk about other things.

00;10;32;13 - 00;10;51;26
Unknown
So, for example, if I talk about love and unity, I have to talk about truth, righteousness and justice and that talk about love and unity without truth. So when I talk about power dynamics, I realize I would talk about the gift of submission, and then I have to define power and I have to bring authority into the conversation.

00;10;51;29 - 00;11;18;20
Unknown
And so when I look at power, this is just me thinking and not really doing much. Richard I look at that as just a sheer ability to do whatever I want to do, but then I have to decide what is the difference between power and freedom, right? Because freedom is the you know, I'm not restricted so I can be free, but I don't have power to do what I want to do, what I can be bound, not free and not have power.

00;11;18;26 - 00;11;43;20
Unknown
So I look at power as like, you need freedom to operate in power. So that's a thing. And power is just doing the freedom to do what I want to do. And I think power brings for me a sort of openness, a sort of if Jessie doesn't want this, but it's going to get done to her power. Is this that kind of that thing?

00;11;43;20 - 00;12;14;17
Unknown
I have the sheer brute to get it done with authority. I look at authority as it was given and and it under as a covering it under a covering. And somebody is operating out of that. So when I hear power, I have the power to break this this car window. I just whether good or bad it is. And that's kind of what I when I see power is just something that you can just muscle and do.

00;12;14;20 - 00;12;43;28
Unknown
Interesting. It's void of it's void of sexism, gender, you know, it's just brute. It just it is what it is where the authority you're doing it because you're license it, you have the authority to do it. And so when I think about power, once you run from it, I don't want I don't want it, I don't want control.

00;12;44;01 - 00;13;14;26
Unknown
I don't want to intimidate, nor do I want to manipulate everyone. I don't want that. When I think about power, I don't want that. I don't want that. I want I want nothing to do with that super. It doesn't like it all. My God, what The example of. It's one of those things where I'm like, Oh, the Lord of the Rings.

00;13;14;28 - 00;13;41;10
Unknown
You know the rings. He's like, My goodness, yes, right. Branches, my branches, you know, And and it can it can be used for great good. You know what? It can be used now. It could be used for great good, but it can be also used for great damage. And the risk of playing with it and getting controlled by the cause, great damage is too great of a risk for me to touch it.

00;13;41;16 - 00;14;10;18
Unknown
When authority, I get authority by giving somebody the gift of submission. So authority has it. So we got power, we got freedom, we got authority, and then we got the gift, the submission, which brings in structures. So you can't have authority without a structure in a system. So what does that mean in this company? This person has a authority to get this done.

00;14;10;18 - 00;14;49;14
Unknown
I'm going on vacation. I put all my bills in your name so you now have the authority to change it. But when I look at authority, I feel that authority is given and it comes to me seeing somebody doing something and I choose to give them my gift of submission, I will give you my gift of submission and in return they give me an authority, you know, and part of that work and they realize at any moment you can pull my gift, the submission, when you act out of line with that authority that you've made, that you have, because I have my freedom, my agency.

00;14;49;14 - 00;15;12;13
Unknown
Right. And so the relationship of the building of the Kingdom of God work really, really well. When you do it your authority well, because you authority didn't come from you, taken it and power over. You only got that authority because somebody gave you the gift, the submission. And so and so I see authority happening in line with the gift of submission.

00;15;12;15 - 00;15;32;29
Unknown
And so when someone no longer gives you the gift of submission, I don't care what your title is, you don't have authority over them. And that's why you have people working in different places and they you don't have authority over that person. You take your position, you might tell you, but you don't have other people in the company who they would rather submit to you and give them the gift of submission to lead them.

00;15;33;03 - 00;15;57;21
Unknown
And that's why we get the idea. Leaders really don't need titles because they kind of have that authority. So I look at authority is to be realistic. That's what I want. But I get that through submitting and I get that through serving. So really, those who want to be greatest among you authority, you become lower and with authority.

00;15;57;26 - 00;16;18;25
Unknown
I feel like you have no danger of being corrupted by it because the only way you get it is to keep serving, is to keep giving. But the danger in that in the 21st century church is do you have authority have so corrupted the authority that they were supposed to be you to raise people up because the people have given them the gift of submission.

00;16;18;27 - 00;16;49;23
Unknown
They've used that authority to squash people. They've had authority to keep them banned. And then it's it's just it's brutally. And so when I look at power that I run from it, I don't want to have power over anybody. I want to have control over anyone. When I look at authority, I'm like, Who structure am I under? What's the order here?

00;16;49;25 - 00;17;06;17
Unknown
And I'm going to be under that. And then here's the thing I begin to think about. You can interrupt any time. I told you, like the air is my whiteboard, I begin to think about what you said and what I found so brilliant in your in your meta idea is that brothers and sisters write that. How does that.

00;17;06;20 - 00;17;29;12
Unknown
So what happened in this thinking? Oh, my God, as a sister, my love for you or as a brother? That's the underlining we love for the matter. If I go with you, if I go the authority route when I view you as my sister, no matter what my authority over you and no matter what you get the submission.

00;17;29;17 - 00;18;00;28
Unknown
If I let that be the I guess the covering, it makes me operate in absolute love because that's what you do in a healthy family, right? And healthy family in love. You love. When I think of what if I think about it, what is thinking as a brother, as sister do under the power dynamic? It really doesn't for me at least, as I see that power dynamic still looming because it's over.

00;18;01;01 - 00;18;24;21
Unknown
It was you never made the decision to submit. You never you never made it. I want to follow that. I want to give you this gift. And so even when you have power, what's for me? What's so frightening about that? Is it? I think it can kind of withhold my love. Because no matter what, no matter how much I love you, I'm trying to have power over you.

00;18;24;24 - 00;18;55;07
Unknown
And that creates many people. The Bible calls it witchcraft, great manipulation. It creates intimidation. I need to intimidate you to keep this power. I need to manipulate you to keep it and in control. So the matter is. So if I apply your teaching by looking at you as a brother and sister, that power, it's almost like you leading that concept because it's like, No, I have to have control over my sister.

00;18;55;11 - 00;19;24;21
Unknown
That can't leave her as intimidate or my brother. And so I am being long winded. Forgive me, but I look at power as something one. Yeah. So I mean, no, I love I love the way that that you're talking about this because, you know, as a neuroscientist, I think about power as agency and I can have like agency over myself or if I have power over someone else, I have agency over them.

00;19;24;28 - 00;19;56;10
Unknown
And that also terrifies me, right? Because who's to say that I'm going to that I'm good? Who's to say that I'm making the right choice in the idea to have that over someone else? Like the next thought is a fear of the Lord. Like I fear the Lord, like they're not mine. They don't belong to me in a way that I get to have have agency without that mutuality.

00;19;56;11 - 00;20;29;13
Unknown
Right? So, so power over is one direction and an agency to do something to them. Well, mutuality means that there's a give and take and and a share and a receive, so that I also then allow you to have agency over me. And that changes changes the dynamic. Right. Pretty pretty substantially. Because if I can feel power and I can feel powerlessness and I'm comfortable with my relationship with you in either posture, then we have mutuality.

00;20;29;13 - 00;20;56;13
Unknown
We have reciprocity, right? We are connected to one another in a way that's like that seesaw. And I can give and take. So I really like that idea of the gift of submission because because to give that agency over yourself away to someone else should be a choice. Yes, you have siblings and I have two of them like siblings, don't they don't do things just because you tell them to.

00;20;56;15 - 00;21;17;26
Unknown
And then you have to like like you. You understand that there's a pureness, right? Like neither of you is the parent. And in a healthy family, you can invite, you can woo, you can champion, you can say, Hey, come play this with me. Like, like, like, come do my agenda with me. And there's usually a give and take.

00;21;17;26 - 00;21;39;11
Unknown
Okay? And I'll go and I'll do you know your your agenda with you at some point And there's, there's a shared power dynamic there that ebbs and flows and comes and goes and there's give and take there. Well, with so then authority authority belongs to the parents, right? They can feel like, hey, here's what you're supposed to do.

00;21;39;11 - 00;21;59;05
Unknown
And as a kid, especially as a teenager, you realize that is a gift of submission to submit to your parents. But I think we have, for me, the brothers and sisters, if I see that we are peers before the Lord and the Lord is the Lord and the Lord can put somebody in charge, we're not in charge, you know.

00;21;59;05 - 00;22;26;02
Unknown
But there's also like that pure ness never goes away, right? Yeah. Yeah. Without it, we delegated right at authority has to be delegated. No one has that inherent parent ability over one another in a brother and sister paradigm. And what you're describing as peer here in this never goes away. What I would adult says even is I think, Lord, what is this?

00;22;26;04 - 00;22;51;05
Unknown
And I felt like for me, I understand it as the love doesn't go away. The love allows me to listen to you. You know, the love creates for me. It's almost like the foundational truth is the love. Maybe let me phrase it in. The question is the foundational truth. The love for you as my sister is what creates the hearing.

00;22;51;05 - 00;23;15;08
Unknown
This is that that's a question to ponder. Is it because? Because what? The motive of the pianist. What's the what's the what? The motive? What's the motive? Is it because because even that if it's not love, it really gets sideways. It could turn because love does it manipulate. Love doesn't do that thing over. Love lets go. Love is patient, you know, all these things.

00;23;15;08 - 00;23;46;14
Unknown
And so I begin to think it's almost like in your description that referring to each other as brothers and sisters, as I'm understanding, is impressive. Is it is like does it create an undercurrent of deposit of love that can withstand anything that can withstand when when you do have to use your authority to do something that brother, sister, love is there.

00;23;46;16 - 00;24;10;21
Unknown
It's almost like the judge is about to prosecute, you know, her daughter. Right. And the judge just I mean, in a court of law, they probably would do that. They'll have to recuse themselves. Right. But my point is like, yes, she's a judge, authority, but that's their daughter. So there's going to be a lot of that's under in the courthouse.

00;24;10;23 - 00;24;37;02
Unknown
So, you know, so I think when I look at this, it's something that's definitely exciting to explore. But I see a lot of puzzle pieces that also part of it, it's authority. And when you talk about agency, I think my language or my way of view, my vantage point is that when I brought up the topic of freedom, I read to do and that is my freedom.

00;24;37;02 - 00;25;16;11
Unknown
I can then use the other puzzle piece to have power over or I can actually. So it's interesting. If I'm not free, I can't even give the gift of submission. And if I'm not free, I can't even have power or know badly power over. So it's almost like, wow, this is a really interesting thought that for me at least, the Love Brothers and Sisters race is underlining foundation of absolute, pure love that has ripple effects.

00;25;16;12 - 00;25;31;27
Unknown
One of those ripple effects is here. You know, there's a there's a there's that at the end of the day, you know, we both put on our you know, we both, you know, eat from the same creed because we're in the same house, you know what I mean? Like, God is it kind of like neutralizes us in that idea.

00;25;31;27 - 00;25;52;21
Unknown
It doesn't take away the whatever authority may or not may or may not be there between a male and the two men or two women. It doesn't take away the structure of whatever authority, whatever house they're in. But what it does is it creates a bedrock of security, a bedrock, a safety should that the reality should. It should.

00;25;52;23 - 00;26;18;14
Unknown
Because because you're like, oh, man, I can't do this to my sister. I can't do this to my brother, because like the biology, like, like as biological beings, we are like all biological beings are kind of to some to some degree program or just lean towards protecting those that are like them. Right? So you want to say that that, that, that our genes are convincing us of that.

00;26;18;14 - 00;26;40;12
Unknown
I mean, I don't think that genes actually have agency, but because they don't have consciousness. But to say that I'm going to protect those that are my kin and that happens in every species for the most part, right? So if I see you as my kin, my job is to actually protect you, as I would protect myself. Right.

00;26;40;12 - 00;27;10;16
Unknown
Or even lay down my life for you. Because when I protect you, I'm protecting us so we can lean into that like that posture that comes to us naturally biologically, that that programing or design, if you will. And then then you're not my other and you're not my competition. Your you and I are the same and your benefit is my benefit.

00;27;10;16 - 00;27;31;11
Unknown
And your win is my win and my witness. Your win. Right. So if then then we're not other from one another. We're brother and sister. And even if we have authority over one another, you know, in some sort of organizational dynamic or whatever, at the end of the day, I can't hurt you because I'm hurting my own flesh.

00;27;31;11 - 00;28;01;12
Unknown
Right? Because brother and sister share flesh. They share blood. And that's if I see you that way. I'm going to keep that foundation even while we may disagree or we have whatever whatever conflict management or authority structure we've got, like that's a solid foundation. You are my flesh and I have to take care of you. So I think about that even, you know, socio biologically as well.

00;28;01;14 - 00;28;30;16
Unknown
It's, it's, you know, the only time that that breaks down is when you when two siblings don't have a parent that provides for them. And then they are in competition because there's limited resources. Right. So then then both of them can't survive. One of them has to survive. And so to me, the idea that we're not brother and sister would come from a broken paradigm, that we don't have a God who's good enough, you know, a spiritual parent who who provides enough for both of us.

00;28;30;18 - 00;28;54;03
Unknown
So to me, if I can't see you as my brother, flesh of flesh of and blood of me and the Lord, then that means I actually don't believe that God is father of all of us and has enough for all of us, because competition would never happen in a healthy family where there's enough provided so yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;28;54;09 - 00;29;18;28
Unknown
You know, in your analogy about the, the you just mentioned, the family structure is there and within that family structure. That's why I keep thinking when you talk about this thing about power, we've got to define it first, right? And then I think we've got to bring in authority and structure now within the family structure. Now there's authority and there are structure, but it's up to that, the authority to teach them.

00;29;19;04 - 00;29;44;09
Unknown
What does it mean to be brothers and sisters in this home? How do we speak one another? And I was just looking at some of Paul's writings. You know, he greeted people as brothers and sisters and and and that was kind of his his his familiar term. And clearly, the Bible describes it as a body. So I think the question has to be for us is, what does it mean to each other, like brothers and sisters?

00;29;44;11 - 00;30;07;12
Unknown
And we explore this meta idea. Can we can we really have some thought behind it? Can we really explore it? And then we explore what does it mean? Who's parenting, right? So whatever structure you're in that mean this is somebody ministry or this is somebody's house or this is a group of people. So have they laid down? This is how we treat each other.

00;30;07;14 - 00;30;40;26
Unknown
This is how they lay down behavior. And most no. Yeah. Yeah. Have they laid down behavior that we could say, oh, this is behavior that we we approve of? And so I really I love this idea and I haven't thought about it. And for me, the revelation is looking at one another as brothers and sisters create an undercurrent desire I must love and I gladly do love, which really governs and puts in check when you want to.

00;30;40;27 - 00;31;05;21
Unknown
If you do, your authority is like you can't. You shouldn't do this your sister, you shouldn't do this to your brother. It's a bad idea that you should love so yeah, so I can shift gears just a little bit and and go somewhere a little personal. Yeah. I'm very interested in how you see your wife as a sister in the Lord.

00;31;05;21 - 00;31;26;21
Unknown
Because not. Not everybody does. Or necessarily thinks about their spouse as a brother or sister in Christ. And so I'm just wondering if you you could articulate how does how do you see her when you think about her as a sister in Christ? And how does that affect the power dynamics between the two of you? Yeah, I think so.

00;31;26;23 - 00;31;46;28
Unknown
I honestly have, until you posed the question, I have to. Transparency is one of my core principles. I've never really thought of like, oh, this is a I never not thought it, but it just doesn't cross my mind. Right. And as I remember, as I talked about earlier, I looked up, I look at power or something I run from, you don't want it.

00;31;47;00 - 00;32;23;18
Unknown
And so in terms about like when I look at my own year, how do I look at her about power dynamics? I'm like, Ooh, I run from that. I want no power over her. I, I, I know I don't want that. So when I, if I now step into your question as a brother or sister, you know, I'd feel like once again, I go back to the courtroom situation, the judge is presiding over the sister, you know, excuse me, their child to create the overlapping relationships.

00;32;23;20 - 00;32;59;01
Unknown
Right. So the overlapping relationship is this is my wife, but this is also my sister. So it's just kind of like, okay, right. So create so I think one, there's a overlap there. So I have to like really sit with that when increased to overlap. But I think if I just let the underlining layer of okay, this is my sister, this is my sister, my sister, the number one thing that works with me is, Oh my God, I want a good friendship.

00;32;59;03 - 00;33;26;28
Unknown
When I when I think about the love, peace is not the undercurrent. It becomes like it becomes friendship. Yeah, it becomes. I really want to know that. If so, if it's a female, that my husband is my friend like, because. Because that's because that a good brother and sister is a really good friend. Like they know you when things are not right, they know how to cheer you up.

00;33;27;00 - 00;33;46;27
Unknown
They know how to like, paint you and say, Hey, you're being mean right now, right? And you don't get all worked up about it. You're like, You know what? I am being mean because it's a bad day, right? So I think for me, when I look at brother and sister, any role in a healthy family dynamic, healthy because a lot of us did not grow up in a healthy family dynamic.

00;33;47;04 - 00;34;08;00
Unknown
So even this thought that's a barrier of I want that. I know what my brother is. And, you know, so I would say that with O'Neal it evokes and it made me really begin to wonder is like, Oh my God, the underlining right? And this with my wife is I wanted to clench it and it made me begin to think.

00;34;08;07 - 00;34;38;09
Unknown
And even now as I'm processing is like, oh, solid is our friendship right? It takes that whole romance, you know, wherever somebody may lie in the head of the household conversation and the why roles of husband roles, we take all of that and they just have a good friendship. That's the root of it. And I think for me and it was very it was very, very much to the friendship.

00;34;38;09 - 00;35;00;22
Unknown
It is the power because, you know, good friend is trying to be like, I'm going to manipulate my friend to do this. I mean that like you run from friends like that. Okay, Hopefully. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that tells me people run from friends up in really come. Yes. So, so so that's what I what I look at.

00;35;00;25 - 00;35;23;08
Unknown
How do I if I was to view in that vantage point. Wow. It puts the impetus on me to strengthen your friendship. So it's not it's not even that whole like, oh date your partner. It's it removes all that stuff and it just kind of get down to like, a raw ness of it, of like, are you doing it?

00;35;23;10 - 00;36;01;21
Unknown
And I, you know, and I think the friendship piece this is interesting with my wife, it's interesting the friendship. He's creating a mood, you know, intimacy. It creates a very, very strong emotional bond and a very strong emotional intimacy that I think really grounds a couple for the sake of being brother and sister in Christ was introduced to me by my husband, who wasn't a Christian when we met or even started dating, but but was by the time we got married.

00;36;01;21 - 00;36;24;11
Unknown
That's a whole other story and journey. He didn't missionary date. He had his own thing. But what he taught me is he's like, You know, if there's no marriage in heaven, then who are we going to be to one another in heaven? And how can we live life now thinking about that? So he's like it because he's a super secure individual.

00;36;24;11 - 00;36;44;18
Unknown
What what he taught me and it was it was really interesting for me to think about the first time that he said it is that you will always be my sister in the Lord and I have to support you as a sister in Christ before I even support you as a wife, because the sister in Christ will be what it exists for all of eternity.

00;36;44;20 - 00;37;22;25
Unknown
So it helped. So he didn't he didn't ever leverage power or do that kind of thing because he saw the long term and thought about it in the long term and was like, You, I need to support you because you belong to God. Before I think about even our marriage dynamic and and belonging to one another. And so, you know, and then that helped me like be okay with who he was and the very cool relationship he has with God being like, okay, well, your job isn't to be my husband first in my job isn't first to be your wife.

00;37;22;25 - 00;37;47;07
Unknown
My job is first to be your sister in the Lord and to support you as a child of God. And think about that. Encourage and champion that before I even think about you as as my husband. So it changed the power of like in the control, like any kind of controlling or weirdness. It really brought that in the light because, yes, they belong to God first before they belong to you.

00;37;47;10 - 00;38;13;13
Unknown
Did you think about it differently? So he was the one who introduced me to that idea, because that will be what for eternity, even when the other types of dynamics, you know, go go away or have an end to them. So it it was just such an interesting power check in the in the marriage relationship that no one had mentioned to me before.

00;38;13;13 - 00;38;32;29
Unknown
Right. That no one had had talked about or introduced to me. So it's a it's a it's a question that I find very fascinating in healthy marriages. You know, how do you how do you see each other as the child of God? And what kind of responsibility do you think that you take for that? And how does that affect the power dynamic?

00;38;33;01 - 00;39;02;26
Unknown
So it's a question I like to ask healthy marriages. So, yeah, we share your vulnerability and sharing it with that. Absolutely. It's a very, very important question. I wish I wish we had this is something this is a completely side note, but, you know, I've realized that we need to there's a lot of work that needs to be done around this conversation.

00;39;02;29 - 00;39;25;17
Unknown
So I'm glad that you're you're you're you're bringing I'm glad you're bringing it up. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. So one last question then is how do you think and maybe this is too big of a question, so but how do you think changing our paradigm, our foundational paradigm to one another as brother and sister, what do you think that would have that?

00;39;25;18 - 00;39;48;25
Unknown
How do you think that would impact social issues and in the problems that we have both in society, but but also the church and being healthy with one another? Okay, repeat the question one more time so I make sure I'm hearing you. Please you. So how do you think that changing our foundational paradigm of seeing one another as brothers and sisters like changing to that?

00;39;48;28 - 00;40;26;04
Unknown
What kind of impact do you think that that would have on the church and society more so? I that's a very good question. Okay. So as I'm processing that question, I think first that I think in several stages, okay, The first stage, I believe that we would have to examine Scripture and see the governor principles about relating to each other as brothers or sisters, you know, scripture.

00;40;26;04 - 00;40;58;09
Unknown
So I think that's number one. But I have to go to Scripture. Is it okay when I see somebody who's, you know, wherever, wherever the social dynamic is, you give guidance to relating to one another as brothers and sisters. So I think, number one, I would have to go, you know, examine that. Right. And then with that, that creates a baseline for all that governing different structures and authority that exist.

00;40;58;11 - 00;41;32;22
Unknown
So case in point, if I'm in politics and I'm a politician so that are that authoritative, so that structure is there, I have authority. So now I have biblical principles of how I should act in that authoritative structure as a politician. But now with this new revelation of the undercurrent of brothers and sisters that also is influencing making it to making my actions actually more fuller, and it brings in the eternity that you're that your husband is talking about.

00;41;32;28 - 00;41;55;16
Unknown
It brings this because without this, if I'm just a politician operating in the authority of a politician, I don't have the eternal view that these are my brothers and sisters. But then if I take that of a politician, if I take it into the schoolhouse as an educator, then I have the Bible, I have the Scriptures. As an educator, it says, Rejoice in righteousness.

00;41;55;16 - 00;42;28;05
Unknown
Don't rejoice in in falsehoods, don't cheat falsehoods, don't rejoice in that. So as a teacher, I'm governed by scripture, but as I'm governed by the Scripture, I'm governed with this eternal peace of brother and sister there. So I think, why does this relate to society? It does something for us which brings in any eternal peace that maybe we've overlooked for quite a long time to coincide with whatever structure of authority that that is there.

00;42;28;08 - 00;42;56;00
Unknown
And when we take those biblical principles as structures of authority with the brothers and sisters, it creates a righteous, warm relationship that actually can grow. I love that that that that's I hope so. I mean, great, because we all need a healthier, healthier communities to be a part of. And and you have to you have to practice it.

00;42;56;03 - 00;43;27;13
Unknown
So I could even tell you with like, my daughter. Oh, my gosh. So like with my own daughter, I actually, you know, I parent her still much like I would say I'm her father. So that authority structure is there. But there comes that underlining. She's my sister in Christ, even though she's 12. So even though I'm her father when she comes and as dad at 12, she's like, hey, can we have a can we talk?

00;43;27;16 - 00;43;49;01
Unknown
When you did this, I felt this. I literally that authoritative piece comes completely off. And now that undercurrent that, oh my gosh, you know, it's not is that that like I'm no longer her father. It's because like because she sees me at somebody that she can trust, she knows is her friends, you know, is going to be there.

00;43;49;04 - 00;44;27;11
Unknown
That fear of going to my dad, you know, that that thunder. I think for me, the revelation in this conversation, this eternal friendship of brothers and sisters, create righteous actions for all of the authoritative levels that are there. Mm hmm. I love that. I love that statement. It creates righteous action as well. All the exploitative without that, the authority level that can there can get really, really withstand the power instead of unity.

00;44;27;13 - 00;44;52;13
Unknown
Right. Yes. That. Yeah. You stop. Yep. Yep. Exactly. That's it. That, that that brother and sister kind of it's a hedge against the power coming in. But when you lose that eternal perspective of brothers and sisters, even with godly authority, you know, just start treating people terribly like you can't be your brother and sister. Well, you shouldn't be brothers.

00;44;52;16 - 00;45;27;10
Unknown
You know, a different expectation, right? Yeah. You should treat your brother and sister terribly. So I really think that underlying the eternal peace of brother and sister always being there with the authoritative structures that God gives in his principles for his authority, structure, it allows righteous, all righteous actions in relationships between between the two. And if you if you don't have one without the other, it can get icy rand.

00;45;27;11 - 00;45;51;09
Unknown
Oh, I know we can talk about this so much, and we probably should again in different ways. But I love I love love, love what you and Tony are working on and the Love and Unity project. Will you let our audience know where to go? I'll put it in the show notes. But how can they find out more about you and and the service that you offer here?

00;45;51;12 - 00;46;22;08
Unknown
So we so anything we love in Unity Project Member Combating Bias for Race, Class and Gender Sexism to seek Love and Unity is good. A loving unity project that come love you and your project come and then anything that you want to see about what we're doing within the church side of things. Really leaning into Ephesians four and the whole idea of reimagining the whole church in the 21st century CARICOM.

00;46;22;11 - 00;47;02;11
Unknown
And you can just kind of see how we're reimagining the 21st century church based on the founders intent. And I think that's really cool as well. And we're just beginning of our of our journey of our mission together. And so yeah, 21st century church dot com for that 411 unity project and you can see all this stuff. Oh, the cool thing about the Love and Unity project that I highly recommend I highly recommend is we wrote this tourist called Real Talk about Race Man you know like get that resource if you if you can afford it, just email us.

00;47;02;14 - 00;47;33;11
Unknown
We'll send you a code if you really, really care about race, injustice, sexism, and if you care about all these things, you must take. I don't say this about much, but you have to take you have to take real talk about race. Here's a reason why it gives you language. Stay in what what is actually happening. I'm beginning to realize with a lot of, you know, the hard conversations we have, the define just like you have ask me, how do you see power?

00;47;33;15 - 00;47;58;18
Unknown
How do you see authority? Because once you define things now we can have a conversation. And I think we've never we have we have inappropriately defined a lot of things. And when it comes to the conversation about race, class and gender. And so roots of our race takes a very teaching approach to define so that we can have a conversation.

00;47;58;21 - 00;48;18;01
Unknown
And it's helped so many so many people. And so I would recommend that. I love that because most people actually do want to have a conversation. They just don't know how and they stumbled their way into it and they end up hurting each other before they even get there. All do that? Yep. Oh, man. Well, thank you, my friend.

00;48;18;03 - 00;48;26;04
Unknown
Please be with you. Yes, Yes, you too as well.