00;00;00;00 - 00;00;27;07
Unknown
Welcome to the Ordinary Discipleship podcast with Jesse Cruickshank. My name is Chris. The man with the beard right here is Jacob. And we are here today to talk about not just ordinary discipleship, but something else, something a little deeper. And we are going to talk today about leadership resources. There are so many out there, Jesse, You can throw a stone out the window and hit some leadership resources, can't you?

00;00;27;08 - 00;00;58;29
Unknown
Yeah, especially for the church, right, Because we love to tell people the best way to be a follower of Jesus is to be a leader. And then we're going to write a lot of books about it. Be honest for a second. No. Yes. Do you notice that sometimes church leaders write leadership stuff after they've got burnt out from leading a church or in the midst of actually not being a very good leader because they have all this stuff going on in the background and maybe it was somebody else on staff who wrote their book, too.

00;00;59;02 - 00;01;15;26
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, it's like all of the things. Yeah, those are all possibilities. Yeah. So but you know what? We're getting ready to write a leadership book. Let's do it. Let's do it right now. Mediocre leadership. What do you think? Should we do it? No. See that one I'm not as keen on. you don't like The New Yorker?

00;01;15;26 - 00;01;38;28
Unknown
Doesn't like that one. I still think. Yeah. All right, so let's get right into it. If you're a church leader listening to this podcast right now, you could go to Amazon right now and you would have thousands of different. Yeah, it's like 4 to 6000 or something. Is it really? Yeah. It's insane. That's incredible. Jake, you're an avid reader.

00;01;39;01 - 00;02;01;20
Unknown
Big reader. Big reader. Have you ever read any leadership stuff? That's primarily what I read for a long, long time, and I. It's what you read. I still read it. I just mix in other things, too. Okay. The only thing I read in. Are you good leader? Mediocre. I'm mediocre. See, you're going to be. And you guys are writing a book together.

00;02;01;21 - 00;02;31;14
Unknown
That's what she was mentioning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's pretty exciting, Because, you know, there's nothing better than to write another book about the most popular book topic out there. Well, you know, I think. Yeah, it's. You get to do your own version of the Bible next. Leave that to the Bible. Okay, That's fair. So why are most leadership materials that are out there right now actually undermining discipleship?

00;02;31;14 - 00;02;55;29
Unknown
I'll send that to you, Jesse. Yeah, that's a it's a great question and one that I thought about for a while was I wrote it down. Yeah. As the opening question, because I've also taught leadership for a long time. I would say that. I mean, I was a director of leadership development for more than one organization and the Wilderness Ministry where I started my, you know, full time ministry career.

00;02;55;29 - 00;03;16;13
Unknown
That just sounds awesome. By the way, I don't know what the Wilderness Ministry is, but I just picture like a bunch of people outside, like there's s'mores, They're going on a hike, there's no s'mores, There's technical rock climbing, technical snow, mountaineering, 150 miles. Backpacking is 40 days, 40 nights through solid water ministries. 40 days, 40 nights. Yes, it's expeditions.

00;03;16;13 - 00;03;43;08
Unknown
That's unbelievable expeditions. And that's where I both taught leadership and learned the nuances of being a leader and teaching that. And the interesting thing is that we mostly only had the Bible. We didn't have a lot of these other resources. I went into that career right out of being trained to be a high school science teacher. So I haven't gone to school for leadership.

00;03;43;10 - 00;04;00;22
Unknown
I just practiced it because, you know, on an expedition, if you don't do that, well, then people die in the States are kind of high stakes. And I'd say so, yeah, on the back end of doing that for over a decade, I started, you know, I came into the denominational world and started Reed as a director of leadership.

00;04;00;22 - 00;04;37;19
Unknown
I started reading more of the leadership of the church. Hire you as a director of leadership? Yeah, I worked for that in a denomination, and now I'm starting to read your leadership gurus and I found their materials to be unhelpful and especially in terms of disciple making. So, you know, if I'm and I've ran five companies, I've built like, like I've done a lot of things from an executive position and there is a way that you do that, like how do you if you're in charge of making decisions for a company or for a group of people then and to manage people.

00;04;37;19 - 00;04;58;29
Unknown
And there's even Harvard Business School has, you know, leadership and management are different, and I agree with that. But these materials that talk about how to be in charge of and control an organization are not that helpful for disciple making, which has both. You are neither. You are not in charge. Actually, God is you're not in control. The Holy Spirit should be.

00;04;59;06 - 00;05;21;15
Unknown
And it's not about you executing whatever it is that you think that everybody should be doing. You should actually be listening to the Holy Spirit saying, Holy Spirit, what's your agenda for this person's life, for this moment, for the season, for this decision? Like discipleship is a is a submission posture. It's it's a hey, I am going to be obedient and follow the Holy Spirit.

00;05;21;18 - 00;05;50;05
Unknown
Well, organizational leadership is just something so much different than that. And so all these leadership resources, regardless of how Christian oriented they may be or not be, are actually not about disciple making. And so if we're telling everybody that you need to be a leader in order to be a disciple maker, which we unpack in a different episode, and then you're teaching them to be in control and to make decisions and to manage people and to execute a vision.

00;05;50;07 - 00;06;15;07
Unknown
Well, none of that is actually the substance of disciple making. And so people get confused, and I think people end up with the wrong skill set. So just let me ask you a follow up question to that. Okay. So if you come from the business world and you try to apply business leadership techniques to spiritual leadership techniques, they're almost opposite of each other.

00;06;15;11 - 00;06;52;27
Unknown
But does anybody do it well, that's a great lesson. Unpack the first part of what you said. Okay, because you were saying like so let's talk about what happens when you apply worldly leadership techniques to a spiritual leadership environment. Okay. World of leadership technique, say chart a vision, set some goals and get people to execute them. And so if I bring that into a discipleship environment, I've got a bunch of people in whose lives God is working and God is doing something very particular in their lives in different, different age, one of them.

00;06;52;29 - 00;07;09;25
Unknown
And then if I as a leader come in and go, Well, here's the vision for all of us. Here's the goals of you to accomplish. You do that. You do that, You do that. No, we're in that process that I consider what God is doing in their life. And so what it ends up being is like the leadership resources tell me to direct and control.

00;07;09;29 - 00;07;31;10
Unknown
Okay? When really like in the process of discipleship, it's a process of releasing control so that God can direct. And so to get to different objectives. So are you saying, though, as a ministry leader like you still have to have goals though and stuff, right. Yeah, I would say like you asked me earlier, like I was saying, I've read a lot of leadership books, you know, like, So are you a good leader?

00;07;31;10 - 00;07;57;09
Unknown
And I hesitated because this is a continual unlearning process for me, is being able to see the places where I'm over directing and to then lay myself down for the sake of what God is doing in the lives of others while still being faithful to what I think God is asking me to do. And so there is a balancing act as a Christian leader that says, like there are responsibilities I've been given, I have to answer for those.

00;07;57;12 - 00;08;20;01
Unknown
But what I cannot do is make my calling your responsibility. So God has asked me to do some things. It's not my congregation's responsibility to help me be faithful to my call it. Yeah. So this was kind of like my biggest was last few years. I was hoping I could get my congregation to do all my bidding, but we which which we think means that we're a good ministry leader.

00;08;20;02 - 00;08;39;27
Unknown
Right, Right. So we have this weirdness. And it was the process of I go to therapy regularly. I have for a long time. It's like going to the gym for me. Like it's just part of my rhythm of life and self-care. And in 2021 there were some things that were going on in my life that caused me to stop and ask some very specific questions.

00;08;40;00 - 00;09;02;26
Unknown
And they were around like, God, what are you asking me to do? And then as I as I worked through that, then the follow up question was, how is God actually equipped and set me up for success to do those things? And where was I falling into this temptation that my therapist calls living through others where I'm actually trying to get you to do the thing?

00;09;02;26 - 00;09;19;25
Unknown
I think I'm supposed to do because I don't think I can do it. So in my specific situation, in my job, I didn't feel like I had the political acumen. I didn't feel like I had the connections to do the thing that I felt God had put on my heart. And what was that? To make disciples and train up pastors.

00;09;19;25 - 00;09;43;17
Unknown
Okay. In leadership. Yeah, but I was running into these different barriers. So then in my brokenness, my habit became or my pathway became, okay, well, I can't get it done, but maybe you can. So I'm going to recruit you to my cause and get you to do the thing that I don't seem to be able to get done without pausing and thinking, Well, what is God actually asked you to do?

00;09;43;20 - 00;10;06;01
Unknown
Right? What is what is your specific assignment and what is my specific assignment? And so we end up with this dynamic of living through others, especially like as a pastor, you know, if you feel called to reach the community that you're in, well, that's your calling. And I think that you were supposed to do that. But you can't assume that that is then what everyone else is supposed to do for you.

00;10;06;03 - 00;10;25;28
Unknown
So then we end up with this strange dynamic and we even have theology to, like, support this weird living through others thing where the pastor can't actually do their calling. They got to recruit a congregation and convince them to do it while not asking them what God is actually asked them to do. Right. So the pastors trying to live through the congregation.

00;10;25;28 - 00;10;48;29
Unknown
But then we also have people in the congregation who have things on their heart and they're like, man, I really have a heart for, you know, the homeless or human trafficking or this cause. And then they try to get the pastor to do it because they don't feel like they're released to do it. And so people aren't actually living out their assignment for whatever reason, the barriers that they're perceiving real and, you know, internalized.

00;10;49;01 - 00;11;11;28
Unknown
Then we try to get other people to do it. Yeah. And that we create this then dynamic of living through others, write a theology around it, support it with some weird, you know, mask applied verses. And we call that leadership. Yeah. And it it messes with us. So I have you just sparked a memory in me.

00;11;12;00 - 00;11;29;12
Unknown
I had a pastor, and every time that a kid would come and say, I don't feel close to God, he would use the way that he always felt close to God. He would say, You need to go read the Bible for 2 hours like, and you'll feel close to God. People would come back and be like, I still don't feel close to God.

00;11;29;14 - 00;11;50;05
Unknown
You know, it was because he was using his technique of how he felt close to God when in all actuality, if he actually would have known this kid, he felt closer to God when he was like kayaking and in God's creation, like just go. And then another little girl, like it felt closer to God when she listen to worship music, like we're all made differently.

00;11;50;05 - 00;12;17;00
Unknown
Right? Right. And so when you say that, like as a leader, part of that job, from what I'm hearing you say, is recognizing and helping people to recognize what they're calling is what their vocation is, and not just to fill what you're playing is your five year plan. Right. Exactly. And it's for the flourishing of others. It's actually not even about you, which means it's not even about your vision or your idea.

00;12;17;03 - 00;12;39;17
Unknown
Yeah. And you know, that's your idea, right? And you're there to support them, which means when we start to lean into this, then the thing that that ends up touching on and the reason why we can say that we believe it, but we don't practice it is because we've actually changed our leadership idea into gaining status instead of laying down our life.

00;12;39;24 - 00;13;05;17
Unknown
What's interesting to a lot of people that I know that are pastors for their board, they'll bring in very successful business people right? But those things that work in business may not many times are not what's going to work when it comes to helping somebody find what they're calling as right. Well, I think that's what gets difficult is because churches have become pretty sophisticated organizations.

00;13;05;17 - 00;13;22;02
Unknown
Yeah. So there is we're not suggesting. Yeah. And they feel that. Right. You can feel the tension. Right. So maybe definitely they're complex even if they're not sophisticated. Well, in Jake, like the other side of it is you've got ministry going on. But as a pastor, you still have to pay the power bill. You still have to run a business.

00;13;22;02 - 00;13;44;11
Unknown
So it's it's an odd dynamic. Yeah. And so I think like and that's where I think when we think about the relational aspects of our leadership components. So what it actually means to lead a community of faith, Jesse likes to say that spiritual leadership is really about being the first follower of the Holy Spirit. So like as you were discussing this scenario where a pastor would tell somebody, Well, here's how you get close to God, do what I would do, Right?

00;13;44;11 - 00;14;03;20
Unknown
Right. That pastors inserting themselves into the story, making that person's story their story, what it would mean to be the first follower of the Holy Spirit. There is that person that that kid comes to that pastor and says, I don't feel close to God. Rather than jumping in to make their story my story, instead I say, Well, why don't we ask the Lord what he's saying?

00;14;03;23 - 00;14;23;18
Unknown
Why don't we look for why our Holy Spirit is leading? And let me help let me let me show you what it would mean to respond to that voice. And so so now spiritual leadership is not about directing them, but about about like mirroring them to be able to listen to Holy Spirit and go, go here, follow me as I follow Christ.

00;14;23;19 - 00;14;46;02
Unknown
Yeah. Not follow me as I direct you or do it my way, right? Yes, I figured it out. Yeah, well, that's the wow, that's really good stuff. And I wonder how many pastors are even socially aware that they're doing this or not doing this, too. You know what I mean? And the ones that I worked with had been trained.

00;14;46;04 - 00;15;04;06
Unknown
Well, just tell them what you do. Yeah. And. And you end up with instead of this follow me as I follow Christ, I'm going to teach you how to follow Christ. They say follow me and behave the same way that I do, because that will lead. And then, you know, that'll work for probably two or three people in your life.

00;15;04;06 - 00;15;28;28
Unknown
That'll that'll be because they're made a people pleaser. So who you want. Okay. You're at least similar enough, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so that that's fine for a few, but for the majority of the people that God will give you the privilege to encounter, that's not going to work. And that's because we miss that. The, the purpose of spiritual leadership is actually for their flourishing, not your success and status.

00;15;29;01 - 00;15;50;21
Unknown
And we don't. That's where we missed the goal. So ego and pride, a lot of times come into. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So one of the main things we've got a couple of minutes left here so it says Your kingdom leadership holds a peace of all people finding unity under the banner of heaven. Right. Unpack that. So okay so if you Google leadership.

00;15;50;25 - 00;16;11;00
Unknown
Yeah, right. And you Google, go to Google Images, you're going to see a picture. Most of them are going to be like a man or a woman climbing a mountain, pulling people up, and they've got this flag, bald eagle, American flag, flag, Right. I'm not going to climb the mountain biking in the mountain. I'm going to you know, if it's if it's benevolent leadership, then they're going to help a team.

00;16;11;01 - 00;16;36;26
Unknown
I'm going to say the other one, their foot, their foot is on their head as they climb the ladder to that corporate. That's how it actually works. But like, you know, it's still this conquering dynamic and this conquering metaphor and so the flag there is my success, my renown, my reputation, my finances, like whatever we want to whatever our status currency is that says, hey, I'm better than you or I've I've achieved, I've become successful.

00;16;36;28 - 00;17;05;06
Unknown
And that we think about that as the the mark of a success, a successful leader when in biblical leadership, in healthy biblical leadership and in spiritual leadership as Jesus modeled for us, it's actually about saying, Hey, come gather with me and I'm going to help lead you to be the best version of yourself. Like who God's created you to be?

00;17;05;06 - 00;17;26;21
Unknown
What is God's assignment? I'm going to use my resources and whatever it is that God has put in me to help you do that. So it's not unity as a body of Christ for their flourishing, because they're flourishing as actually being their part of the body of Christ. Yeah, right. We are here for each other to help each other be the fullness of who God has called us to be.

00;17;26;24 - 00;17;48;18
Unknown
And so when each person that I lead is being the fullness of who God called them to be, not just in their identity, but also in their assignment, then I'm doing a good job. Okay? And so that's a very different picture than, Hey, I'm going to conquer the mountain. Come help me. Serve me to do that. Yeah, help me build a statue of myself.

00;17;48;20 - 00;18;12;24
Unknown
So final question. Let's say you're a pastor listening to this podcast right now and you realize, holy cow, I've been doing it kind of the business way. I've been trying to get people because I, I felt like that was a vision from God and I wanted people to, you know, not nefarious or anything. Right. Right. They just did it.

00;18;12;26 - 00;18;41;03
Unknown
And they come to this was a moment of self-awareness where they're like, wow, I really haven't been helping people find their own callings or what's one of the first one or two steps that a pastor can do to help somebody on that journey? Yeah, I think the first thing is to attend to your own soul. So what's happening when we start to try to direct others is we're actually putting ourself in the place of God.

00;18;41;06 - 00;19;06;29
Unknown
Okay, So we have to return to first principles and say God is God and I am not. And and that's my sole issue. And so when we find ourselves in this leadership trap, the answer is not in the work of leadership. It's actually in allowing God to put us back in our place. Okay. And then in doing that, once I differentiate myself from God, I can differentiate myself from the people I'm leading and realize that my calling is not there calling.

00;19;07;02 - 00;19;24;19
Unknown
But again, it begins in attending to your own soul and allowing God to reveal in you the places where there is pride and where you can continue to die to self so that you can share. But so are you saying like allowing God to show you where they are? You're saying like through prayer or like, what do you think?

00;19;24;21 - 00;19;42;09
Unknown
Well, just like with your example, I don't know. Right. But hopefully if you're in a position of spiritual leadership, I just want to you to tell me what to do. Right. Would you just tell me to talk to God about it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing is that in that process, we're going to, it'll reveal where we don't actually trust God.

00;19;42;15 - 00;19;57;26
Unknown
It's not that we want to be bad leaders, but we've actually been talked into thinking more accountable for something that we're not like. We're never accountable. For God's part, He's not going to say, why didn't you do my job? Or Why didn't you do Holy Spirit's job? Like he's he's only going to ask us to be accountable for our own part.

00;19;57;28 - 00;20;20;05
Unknown
And so we get talked into greater burden in stepping into other people's places because we think we're accountable for that. And when we step back, it actually reveals where we don't trust God to do God's part right? And we don't trust Holy Spirit to do Holy Spirit's part. And that's the that's that's the hard part of our own.

00;20;20;12 - 00;20;43;15
Unknown
You know, where your heart hurts. You're like, I don't actually believe or trust certain things. Yikes. Yeah, I hear you. But the good news is that God knows us. He knows that. And he's still going to do his part, right? Even even where we're, you know, that's where we're stepping in. Yeah, well, that's awesome, guys. That's going to do it for today.

00;20;43;18 - 00;21;07;02
Unknown
I want to thank you, too. This was amazing. And we will see you next time, actually. Well, how can they get in touch with you if they want to know more, Jesse, so you can reach us at who ology? Dot CEO So W.H.O. ology y dot CEO also the ordinary discipleship dot com where you can pick up more podcast episodes.

00;21;07;02 - 00;21;34;15
Unknown
You can learn about our online class around ordinary discipleship, but we're producing more resources just around this bigger conversation to help equip pastors, equip everyday believers, equip those who feel like they need to lean into this space and the assignment that God has on their life. And if you have if you're like me and you have a couple of extra audible credits, you can go to Audible and download your book, give them the title of that ordinary discipleship boom right there.

00;21;34;22 - 00;21;45;05
Unknown
Okay, guys, we will see you next time. Thanks for downloading and go rate and review us on iTunes. That helps other people to find us. God bless Seattle.