Jacob: Welcome back to the
Ordinary Discipleship Podcast.

I'm Jacob. I'm here with Jesse
Crookshank and Julia Schmaltz,

and we have been discussing
topics inspired by their book,

Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,

Story, and Science. So we're
we're glad you're with us.

Again, everything we've been
talking about around these

becoming good news topics, or
around identity formation, how

our narrative is the center of
our discipleship journey, and as

we were discussing some of this
off air, so to speak, I was

telling you all about a passage
of scripture that's important to

me. Like, if I have to identify
a life verse, it's the story of

my namesake in the Bible, Jacob,
fleeing from his family in

Genesis 28, or I believe it is,
he's he's in the desert. He's

running from his family. He's
he's deceived his father, and he

he has a vision in the night of
angels ascending and descending

on this stairway to and from
heaven, and when he awakes, the

scriptures say Jacob awoke, and
he said, "Surely God was in this

place, and I was not aware of
it. I've been reading. I've been

reading a book based on this
passage with like a collection

of commentary from Jewish rabbis
that really got me going on this

identity kind of thing, but
again, I I think we all three

think that that image that story
is rich for understanding where

God shows up in our lives, and
it is this thing about like in

what should be Jacob's most
shameful moment of his life, he

realizes that God's still with
him. So, what do you guys think

we can be learning from a story
like that or an image, an image

like that?

Jessie Cruickshank: So if we
think about it in terms of

identity, like like Jacob had
one identity that he was living

into of being a deceiver and a
heel grabber, and this is a

turning point for him, right?
When God he encounters God and

God meets him in the middle of
things he's not supposed to be

doing things he he should as you
said should be ashamed of

shameful moment in his life like
like God is there and God

changes who he is and helps him
know who he's always been

created to be so so I think for
for me, and I think about the

story. There's an identity
change that God is helping

happen there. So, but it but it
makes you ask the follow up

question: Was he named wrong in
the first place? Was there

something wrong with with with
the beginning of his? You know,

everyone has an origin story.
So, was there something off in

his origin story? But that's not
actually how we think about it,

because we don't think God makes
mistakes. And that, when you

when you actually come to this
absolute truth that God doesn't

make mistakes, and you start to
look at things through that, it

starts it starts to mess with
you. It starts to change the way

that you see you see the world.
And I think for Jules and I,

like the the conviction that we
have, that's probably like like

I am willing to die on a hill
for this. Julia can speak for

herself if she's willing to be
that extreme, but it's that that

we're not in we're not in the
backup story. We're not in a

Plan B story. God didn't screw
up, and humanity was so, you

know, creation was so fragile
that one little hiccup derailed

God's plan. That now He had to
come up with Plan B, and and and

I mean, Jules, you can you can
share how you feel about this

too. But like, like I'm I'm
really willing to stand on that

hill for the rest of my life and
fight for it.

Julia Schmaltz: Absolutely, and
I think as I've as I've come

into that, just really that
acknowledgement, because that's

not the way that I was raised,
or at least what my perception

of how I was raised in the
church. You know, it was that we

we talk about you know that all
have sinned and fallen short of

the glory of God, and so it's
I'm living. I I have a sinful

nature that needs, and I need I
it needs to be overcome, and so

what that meant as I was growing
up is that I had to, in my own

strength, overcome my sinful
nature. There's a lot of guilt

and shame that came with that
because I was not adequate to do

it myself, and that I would
fail. And so I'm dealing with

all these lies. I'm a failure.
I'm stupid. Like all of these

different things, and it as you
know, but as you go into

scripture, and one of the things
I've loved is I love studying

narrative in scripture. You
know, we talk about that about

how a narrative is a purposeful
retelling of a story, that

actually comes from Thea
Stewart's book, How to Read the

Bible for All It's Worth, and
where when they're talking about

biblical narratives, they're
talking about when these

passages of scripture that are
very, you know, are very dense,

and we read them as children,
and we see these big superheroes

of the faith. We're like Abraham
overcome, Jacob wrestled with

God, which is actually what
Jacob means. Wrestled, you know,

he's a wrestler. And if you look
at Jacob's story, his his entire

story is that he's whole.
Holding on to Esau's heel, he

comes out, and then he has this
wrestling throughout his entire

life. He's actually it means
deceiver. He actually is

deceiving, and he deceives. You
know, his his mom favors Rebecca

favors him, and Isaac favors
Esau because Esau is a hairy

guy. He's a he's a big guy. You
know, he's a hunter, and what we

see is that Jacob deceives Isaac
and gets the blessing and gets

the birthright, and so then all
of these years, you the irony of

Jacob's story is he's fighting
for the hand of the girl that he

loves in Rachel, and his uncle
ends up deceiving him, and he

has to all of these different
years, years after years after

years. What is it? 21 years that
he's working ends up working for

the hand of of Rachel. And so at
the point at that story that

he's wrestling with God, God
actually, you know, it's he's if

I remember the story correctly,
he's actually has his entire

family on the other side of of
the river, and he's sitting on

the other side when God meets
him, and he has this exchange.

And so the irony of it is not
just the the name change that

takes place that the he become
goes from deceiver wrestler, but

he is re literally renamed by
God into Israel, which is the

one it is. I struggle with God,
so it's not just I'm a deceiver

and a wrestler, but I am one who
struggles with God, which of

course is what defines the
entire nation of Israel moving

forward. And so when we talk
about identity, we talk about

it. You know, we have names, but
that we that God gives us

identity, and that is being
named by God, and there's a

psychology to naming that is
incredibly important in our

formation. But there's also this
incredible formation that in our

discipleship that takes place
when we're wrestling with God,

and God says, "No, this is who
you are. I am actually

reinterpreting for you. You
thought you were a deceiver, and

you thought there was shame in
that. You thought there was

there was shame in wrestling
with God because of of your own

brokenness. But no, you were
meant to wrestle. You were meant

to wrestle with God, and there
is redemption in that. But let

me show you the way that I want
you to wrestle with me, not the

way that you have been intending
in your own strength. We see the

same thing in Moses's story. We
talked about it in a previous

episode about him being a
deliverer with the Egyptian, and

then God redeems that deliver
him that same identity of being

a deliverer.

And we see that. And if you look
back on your own life and story,

you're going to see themes of
who you are and your own story,

things that you thought you
failed that you'd been

attempting to do in your own
strength. That God's saying,

"No, let me reinterpret it for
you. You weren't getting it

wrong. You were just trying to
do it on your own. And now let

me show you what I've intended
for you all along. And then, as

we come into alignment with
that, God again redeems and

restores our entire story.

Jacob: Yeah, that's good. And
just for clarity's sake, we are

talking about there. We have now
referenced two episodes in

Jacob's life. The Jacob's latter
episode is as he's fleeing from

his family. The wrestling with
God is as he's returning back.

And there's actually a third
time when Jesus, when Jacob has

a vision in the desert when the
whole family is on the way to

Egypt, I believe. But Jesse, you
said something interesting about

it can lead us to say like, you
know, like Jacob might have been

saying, "Was I named wrongly?
And I think that's like as as

Julia started to dip her toes
into the power of naming, which

we'll talk about another time as
well. Really, it's like we can

wrestle with, is there something
wrong with me? Like, why do why

do I keep finding myself in
these situations? And my name is

Jacob, which, as I've done name
meaning work, I've attached to

actually to the the the meaning
of the name Jacob, which is

usurper, which is that same kind
of like he clutches the heel.

And my middle name is Mark,
which is to be warlike, and then

and then my last name there's an
there's a way to interpret my

last name which it means heart
spear, and so like I found that

there are times in my life when
I speak so incisively that I can

hurt people, and and that's that
there's a usurper nature to

that, but I found that when I'm
at my best, I'm speaking to

people's hearts to overturn the
lies in their life, and so, you

know, there's there can be a
time when you say, "Oh my

goodness, me being a warlike
heart spear usurper, is there

something wrong with me? And the
answer is like no. There's

nothing wrong with you. You just
need to submit your warlike

heart spear usurping to the will
of your father, and then your

Creator God in His grace will
redeem who you are, that you can

be used for His kingdom. Just
one one small example. Just to

like kind of hammer home this
application is like we named our

son Elijah, and because he came
out with a furrowed brow,

looking kind of grumpy, and we'd
already discussed the name

Elijah, but early on he was like
he was very susceptible to

swings in his emotion, and I and
I would have this, I was like,

"Oh no! Did I just curse my
child? Right? That like that I

named him Elijah after the
biblical prophet who experienced

these wide swings. But what I've
become to realize as he's gotten

older is like, no, his ability
to be in tune to what he's

feeling causes him to be a
unifier in the room because

everyone can attach to his
heart, and he's willing to go

wherever other people go. And
sure, that's risky, but it it

can also be really powerful for
the kingdom. That's what we mean

by we're not living in God's
plan B. It's not like there's

something wrong with us that God
has to fix. It's actually like

who we are, how we are made, is
that the iniquity, the flaws,

are all opportunities for God to
come through and make something

new out of us. Is that how you
guys? Is that how you guys would

say it?

Julia Schmaltz: I love how you
talked about Jake, the three

elements to Jacob's story, and
I'm not as familiar with Jacob's

story as some of the others like
Abraham. But what's so important

about that, and you highlighting
that, is that we tend to look at

the one story and then apply
that one story and saying this

is how we have to live. But what
what you're saying and what

Scripture does over and over
again when there's talk about

these larger biblical narratives
is they're actually showing us

these movements of change that
somebody's walking through. What

it means to be a life of a, you
know, we wouldn't say this

necessarily about a disciple in
the Old Testament, but that's

actually how people grow and
change is over their lifetime.

And so, when we're talking about
discipleship, we're talking

about it for your lifetime, not
in a moment, not as a program at

a church. It we're talking about
how God forms us over the course

of our life, and the way that I
see it in my late 40s is not the

same way that I saw it in my 20s
or even 30s, right? Because I'm,

even though I am at my core the
same person. In fact, I feel

like I'm more who I I've always
been or who I was created to be

now than I was during those
times. I had hints of that, but

as God forms me, as God forms
you, I mean, just what you're

talking about, your son, it
becomes so much more clear that

it's not that there is a a new
thing; it's that there's a

greater knowing, a deeper
understanding of who we are and

who we were created to be, and
that is formed over a lifetime.

So we see it as just we see it
as a story, and it's like these

movements. It's almost like the
acts of a play. There's always

these three acts in a play, you
know, significant acts, and and

at the end of each one, there's
just these these defining

moments, and and that's that's
the way that was intended, and I

think that's what we're saying
is that that's the way that God

intended it. He intended us for
there to be these movements and

growth throughout our lifetime,

Jessie Cruickshank: I love what
you're saying, Julia. Because

you know, I we think of identity
as like a well, it's just not

static, right? It's not a blank
slate, and it's not static. It

is a developmental process. So
who we are and how we act as a

three year old should be
different than who we are and

how we act as a 40-something or
a 20-something, and they're not

inherently different, and yet
there is development there. And

what I love is about the brain
science is that as our biology

grows, it gives us a greater way
to understand God. We understand

God. God has characteristics
that we didn't know He had

before because our brain wasn't
developed enough to see them,

and so we're like, oh wait,
they're like like I can have a

personal relationship with
people that changes me, which

means I can have a personal
relationship with God that

changes me, and that was true
about God before we were aware

of it, but now we become aware
of it. Now we can engage with

it, and so we are a we are a
creature that is always growing

and developing. Like my dog
doesn't have an identity

formation story. Okay, he's just
Howie, and he loves his toys,

and like that's it. Like he is
he is all about playing and

herding and and that sort of
thing. So he doesn't have an

identity formation story, but we
do, and so our understanding of

God changes, our understanding
of ourself changes. So there's

not like, well, there was your
true self back then, and then

you've lost it. Instead, we're
like wine that is getting

richer, and and each season of
you know the wine fermentation

process and and what it's
contained in and how many years

it was changes and and brings
out different flavors that were

already inherent in the soil,
which means they were already

inherent in the grape. Like,
like it's this mysterious,

amazing, unfolding developmental
process that is that is our

identity. And you can't look at
any one phase of that and go,

"Oh, well, that was wrong. The
the. The error is our

interpretation of things as
being wrong, like like the error

is that we think there's a
problem. The error is that we

think God did it wrong. The
error is that we think we're

named wrong or created wrong,
and instead, the invitation from

from God is to trust the
Scripture that He has created

and named every day of our life
before a single one was written,

and He knows what He's doing,
and He's good. And to if we

trust that, then we can say,
"Hey, God, tell me why that. I

ask this question all the time:
Why was that a good idea? Why?

Why is that for my good? Where,
like, like I want to know what

His story is because I trust
it's a better story, but I have

to ask because otherwise, like
I'm sitting from my limited

perspective, and I'm like, I
don't, I don't know if that was

a good idea. I don't know if
that, I don't know if you're for

me, and and so God wants to
reinterpret this to us, because

again, as we as we said in
another episode, it it's not

we're not in Plan B. The
redemption is not a Plan B

story. The redemption was always
the intent from the very

beginning, and even Jewish
mysticism talks about that: how

creation existed, and then
something has to be broken in

order to be remade to come into
its fullness. Like that is

God's. That is the story God is
telling. The breaking, the

deconstruction. You know that
the the problems aren't

problems. They actually, as as
Julia's explained in a different

episode about the definition of
sin, they're an inherent flaw

that moves the story forward,
that helps the hero come into

the fullness of who they are
actually supposed to be.

And if we didn't have that, if
we didn't have these hiccups,

these errors, these these
limitations, we would never

actually be who we were created
to be, and so it's I I love that

that Julia's sharing about the
different waves of that because

when we start to see it as a
storyline and not a goal to hit,

then it becomes much more
beautiful, and we get to be

present in the art and the
mystery and the wonder of it,

and that sounds that sounds way
better than you know success

failure binary plus minus kind
of kind of I don't I don't think

God I don't think God has to
grade on a curve, I think we all

just pass. It's okay,

Julia Schmaltz: and and you just
said this, Jesse. You know,

Jewish mysticism and just
different things. But it's it's

in the gospel. It's life, death,
and resurrection. I mean, that's

what Jesus came to do. He came
to bring. You know, we have

life. We all are going to. We
all experience death. But he

came for the sake of
resurrection, and so we get to

experience resurrection and just
those glimpses of it every time

he reinterprets our story, every
time our he renames us and gives

us identity and gives us a
greater insight into who we are,

we get to experience those
pieces really of heaven that we

were made for.

Jacob: It can mess with our
brain to say the thing that

you've always been told equals
bad isn't necessarily bad. It's

just a part of the story. But I
think what you hit on there,

Julia, to say it's always about
life, death, and resurrection,

and we can get so hung up on
trying to avoid death that we

forget that resurrection's on
the other side.

Julia Schmaltz: Yeah,

Jacob: and and and I think
that's what it means to live in

light of the resurrection, to
understand that brokenness is

merely a stumbling block along
the way, and that and that

resurrection is never never
called into question. So, if

you're listening with us, we're
hoping that that's encouraging

to you, even if it's
disorienting. And a reminder is,

if if you want to go deeper on
any of these topics, make sure

you're looking out for Jesse and
Julia's book, "Becoming Good

News: Reimagining Discipleship
Through Identity, Story, and

Science. Here on the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast, we're

continuing to dive into topics
inspired by the book, so we hope

that you'll join us on the
podcast, continuing, and and and

and grab the book. So we'll
we'll we'll be with you next

time.