Jacob: Welcome to the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast with Jesse

Krukshank. I'm Jacob Hoyer here
with Julius Schmaltz, and we are

excited to be with you today as
we continue to unpack concepts

that are in Jesse and Julia's
new book, "Becoming Good News:

Reimagining Discipleship Through
Identity, Story, and Science.

So, hey guys, today we want to
start to talk about if folks are

reading the book or they're
coming alive to these ideas

about living out of their true
identity, there becomes this

question about like how do we
build communities that can

actually help people do this,
and what does it look like to

build an environment of safety
so that people can can discover

true identity, individuals
discover true identity. So, one

of you tee us up, kind of unpack
that question, or help us take

our next steps into the
conversation about how folks can

build communities where folks
discover true identity.

Julia Schmaltz: We hired a
marketing team for our

organization, and we were
talking about identity. And I

get a, you know, the first thing
that we do at our on our team is

we actually and whenever we have
a new team member come or we

ever we're working with a new
organization we actually

introduce ourselves in our true
identity, and so it's a really

amazing concept when you say
this is who God says that I am

and this is what God's been
speaking to me about who I am

because as I understand who I am
I'm able to then understand who

God is, and I understand how God
is at work, and I start to see

people, how God names people,
and we talk about that in the

book about the importance of
naming. But we see how God names

people, and then I can see the
truth of who they are, and it

begins to resonate, and we begin
to resonate as a community. So I

was working with our marketing
team for the first time, and I

was telling them about this, and
we introduced ourselves in our

true identity. And he actually
had received an identity that

was really it was it was big.
And so sometimes when God speaks

stuff over us, we're like, "Do I
even want to confess this out to

the room? Because this might one
scare people. It might make it

might be overwhelming for them,
or they might think I think too

highly of myself with some of
the things that God speaks over

me, and the and it can be really
like it takes courage sometimes

to say this is what God says and
this is who He says that I am

and I'm learning to receive it.
So we did that and it was it was

great and it was really fun a
fun exercise. So a couple of

weeks later, I get a message on
a Friday night. He's on the East

Coast. I'm on the West Coast. So
it's 730 on a Friday night, and

on my in on the West Coast, and
it so it's 1030 at night for

him. And he texts and he just
messages me. How does one

actually receive true identity?
And he was expecting me to send

him an assessment or something
that's like, okay, go through

this. And I at the end of it,
you're we're gonna spill out.

You know, we'll put in the AI
prompt, and we're gonna tell you

who you are. And I said, you ask
Jesus, you receive it from

Jesus. That was my response. It
was like four words or

something, and he's like, duh,
like you know, like of course

it's that easy, and it unlocks
something for him about hearing

from God and about being able to
then share that in community and

just keep sharing what God began
to speak over him, I think

that's how you do it in
community. You open spaces to

say this is who you are, and
this is who God says that I am.

And I don't walk into many rooms
and say that because it's

intimidating to people and it's
a lot. But I have created a

group at my house, and we meet
together on a regular basis. And

I will go. I don't have
everybody introduced every week.

This is my true identity. But
when we have new people, I'll

say, "Hey, we're going to have a
couple of us open the room, and

this is how we talk about how
God names us. And in doing that,

it unlocks something really
beautiful because there's

permission then to receive from
Jesus in a way that people

haven't received before, and it
creates something really

beautiful about. I don't have to
pretend to do. I'm not. I'm not

being defined by what I do.

I'm not being defined by my
first name or my last name or

my, you know, if I was married
before or married, you know,

like there's not all of these
different like dynamics. It's

not even what I do. It's not my
job description. It's this is

who God says that I am, and I
get to receive it. And now I get

to come to you as a gift to the
world. And we're just seeing

some really beautiful things
happen in community by just

getting to share that and
healing that takes place because

people are really seen for who
they are.

Jacob: That's good. Yeah, and I
think like what I'm hearing you

say is like you just create the
expectation that we're going to

hear from Jesus about who God
says that we are, and and even

when somebody says we'll just
give you an assessment, you

don't allow that to reset the
culture. You keep the culture

like we receive our identity
from Jesus, but that that that

example of somebody going just
send me the assessment. Kind of

connects with Jesse. You were
talking about folks often

confusing being and doing. How
do where do you see that clash

coming into play in a lot of
communities?

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
think people are used to praying

with each other about things in
our life. You know, God was. An

answer I need for this
situation: Am I supposed to do A

or do B? And I just wonder how
many communities, when they pray

together, actually just sit with
each other and say, "You know,

God, who do you say Jesse is
right now? You know, how do you

see Jesse in this situation?
Asking for God's narrative,

God's interpretation of the
events and the situation, and

when you do that, because I've
been in communities that do

that, and the praying, the
praying feels, it can feel

unproductive to those who want
an answer, who want a next step,

but to sit and linger and and
have ever other people sit and

imagine with you what God might
be singing over you. Imagine how

God might be narrating the
moment in your in your story.

It's very very different to hear
God name you or tell you how He

sees the situation, or tell you
tell you how he sees another

person, and they're actually not
next steps. There's not an

action plan, right? We want
strategy rather than

transformation, and
transformation is not a

strategy. It's a gift, and
strategy can't get you to

transformation. And I say that
as a very strategic person.

Strategy can't get you to
transformation because it's a

doing, and it doesn't actually
get all the way to the core of

the situation, which is a being
thing. So we want assessment so

we can, you know, present to the
world our best self, and we can

be optimistic about what we want
to do, and and we don't really

want to know the things inside
of us that we're afraid of and

that we're scared of. So, so
these assessments give us action

points that actually are kind of
a distraction and a coping

mechanism for some of that
deeper shame or angst or fear.

And it's just easy to go with
something that can be a label

that I can be whatever I am
behind the scenes, right? We

want a role to play. We want an
archetype to fit into, and it's

because we're we're scared to
actually look at who we are

because we're afraid that it's
there might be something gross

in there, something bad in
there. We're afraid of

rejection. We're afraid we're
unlovable. We're afraid we're

unworthy, and so it's having a
community that can be that can

see you, that you can be exposed
in front of, that you can take

that inner narrative and that
inner dialog and share it. That

can change the the formation
that we are able to have, it

changes the entire story to be
able to do that in a group of

people, but

Julia Schmaltz: but not who can
just name it for us, but who

keep sending us back to Jesus,
who can set the table for us to

go back to Jesus and say, you
know, when we ask questions of

ourselves, we can tend to just
jump in and say, well, it's

you're no, of course you're not
that way, of course, like you

know, that's not who you are,
and then then that helps us. It

really does because shame's
healed in community, and things

are are healed in community. But
when I say to you, you know, I

know that's not true, but you
need to know that's not true.

Let's ask Jesus, and then take
you and lead you into that

conversation with Jesus and
setting the table. You get to

hear from God for yourself, and
time and time again, we all know

that when we hear from God,
that's actually what change.

That's the aha moment that
changes the core of our being,

and I think that's the power of
community is that we are able to

create this space where it says,
"I actually don't have to have

the answers, but I know the God
who does, and I've walked with

him long enough. In my, I can
bear witness to the fact that he

does speak, and that he has, and
that he loves me enough that he

is with me, and I know that he
loves you enough that he is with

you, and he will speak to you.
And I'm going to sit with you in

that space as we are as we're
journeying together, and I'm

just going to keep taking you
back to Jesus. I mean, the like

the beauty. Like we're we're for
assessments. By the way, Jesse

and Jacob are creating beautiful
assessments all the time. I'm

not against assessments, but
assessments do something. They

help us name something. And what
we're when we talk about true

identity, we're talking about
being named by God. And the only

person that can name us is
Jesus, and he he's the one that

calls us by name, and so it's
important when we talk about

true identity, we lean into
that.

Jacob: Well, I think we're
talking here about being and

doing, and I think when we talk
about being in community, it's

worth identifying that like
being is to doing as community

is to organization, and so like
like like I have to know what it

means to be myself. It doesn't
mean I don't do things. It just

means my identity doesn't come
from my doing. Correct.

Similarly, to form a community,
we will need to have

organization, but we just can't
confuse. So there has to be a

community of of of people that
who then who then navigate

organization together, and then
this really comes to a head for

leaders because there are folks
leaders who love people and want

to build community, but the only
tools they're given are for

organization, and that's really
I think where we end up where

somebody goes well just give me
the assessment to give to my

people, and I was I was telling
you all earlier I've been

working with a woman in my
congregation I lead a church

regularly and I've been working
with her to help take on our

children's ministry and
children's ministry we're a 10

year old church it's not
something that we've ever put a

lot of intentionality into but
now, like in the next phase of

our church's development, we
want to be a church for the next

generation. It doesn't just mean
for kids, but it means like

instead of thinking year by
year, we want to think in

decades, right? And so she's now
trying to think through like

this is a woman who's been a
part of our church for two

years. She knows that there's
something about the community

that we have, but she hasn't, as
a leader, absorbed it like and

and like intellectualized it
yet. So she's asking me. She's

like, but there are things we
do. Like our church feels

organic, but there's structures
you have. When she said that, I

was like, I don't know what
she's talking about. What

structures have I put in place?
And then she started talking

about practices of ours and
content that we that we use, and

the and the way that I lead the
congregation, the way that I

make connections between people,
and she was identifying all of

that as structures. She's like,
when you run our me member

class, it's like you you get
people to connect relationally,

and then somebody brings a meal,
we have a meal with it, and she

was naming all of that as
structures, and I was like, "Oh

well, I don't think of that as
structures. I just think of that

as shepherding. And that's where
I think we were talking about

like a person could could look
at our congregation and extract

out practices and go build
another organization. But if you

extract those practices absent
identity and real community, the

organization doesn't build the
community. The community has to

build the organization. I don't
know if any of that resonates

with you guys.

Jessie Cruickshank: No, totally.
And I love the way that you're

expressing that, Jacob. That is
fantastic, because I think when

it comes to community, people
they they think, oh well, we

need to be welcoming, and
welcoming is an action, but like

interested in you, I am
interested in you. Like that's a

being thing. And if you're
interested, then you can be

welcoming. But if you're just
going, oh well, we need to greet

people well, and we need to have
a smile on our face, and and

yes, you should do those things,
but those things don't actually

make you interested in somebody
else, right? But if you're

interested in somebody else,
you'll do those. So, so there's

a difference between like the
external invisible fruit that

comes from that internal deep
sense of being and existence.

And you know, I know people say
that we can behave into a way, a

new way of being, but that's the
long hard route, and it doesn't

exactly work very well, and it's
also very tiring. So let's do it

God's way, that He made it to
work, and the and like let Him

change us on the inside, and
then that can that can grow out

of us. So as a community, you
know, I'm thinking about how you

know Jewel said that you know we
set the table, and I love that

because you can argue with me if
I tell you that you're worthy,

but I want to watch you argue
with God about that, right? So

if God names you that way, I
want to I give me some popcorn

and let me let me observe you
wrestle that out with the Lord

because it's one thing when
somebody else says it, and you

can like ah ah you know and you
kind of hedge and and

everything, but but when God
says it, that's a that's a very

different word to stand against.
So it changes

Julia Schmaltz: us. What's
beautiful, Jacob, when you talk

about you know you being a
shepherd, and it's it's

interesting. Someone's coming in
and watching you be a shepherd

immediately takes me to Psalm
23. Obviously, the Lord is my

shepherd, and if we looked at
that for spiritual formation, it

says I have everything that I
need. I lack nothing. I have

everything that I need. If that
was actually the core of I have

everything I need because I
actually don't have to as a

shepherd, you're following a
shepherd. As you know, our

roles, our beings, we're
following a shepherd. And when I

start asking God very specific
questions about what do I do, He

says, "I'm with you. You know
how frustrating that is at

times. Like that's been the that
that's been the discipleship

process of formation. Of oh, it
you actually don't care what I

do here. You care the fact that
I know that you're with me and

that you're leading me beside
still waters and restoring my

soul. That's actually the path
of discipleship. That's the path

of being. And then what does he
do? He sets a table before me in

the presence of my enemies. And
when we talk about. We actually

talk about the restoration that
happens, and that it is we are

learning to love our enemy at
every stage of our identity

formation. Loving, loving the i
the enemy self, loving the enemy

other, loving the it's and then
eventually getting to the point

where I can actually sit down in
the presence of people that I

feel like would be completely my
enemies, and that's the table

that God is setting for all of
us. So the way that we are

formed is actually by learning
to love our enemies. But we're

not. It's not just the person I
disagree with. It's the very

wrestling with God that He is
with me, and that He is leading

me to the table that is going to
set before me. And that's

actually how I'm formed with
with the with people that are

irritating me, okay, God, don't
you know that they're

irritating? Well, God, what do
you want me to know about that?

Well, you know, I love them and
I love you, and I'm forming you.

And and there's this this
practice of that's actually the

whole point. Like we are
supposed to ruffle each other's

feathers. We're just not
supposed to remain there,

because whenever we go back to
God as our good Father, you

know, as a good Father, He loves
all of His children equally, and

He's going, yeah, I've got you,
and I've got you, and guess

what? You all get to sit at my
table, and you all get to come

and sit on my lap, and I love
that, I love that, and I mean,

that's really what community and
our true identity is all about.

Is it's like, oh, God does love
the other person that much that

He's willing to invite them to
this table, and so can I love

them by the truth of who I am,
and then be able to love them

for the truth of who they are.

Jessie Cruickshank: Because when
we encounter people, I think in

our in our doings, then that
irritation and that annoyance

like can become everything,
right? What am I doing and what

are you doing? But to like sit
and say, okay, I'm going to

relate to my being to their
being, it changes that

conversation and it changes the
accountability, right? So now

the solution is that we're
actually connected in

relationship, and we have to,
and then, and then the things

that we're doing that are
bugging each other become less,

and we have the right
perspective in order to address

them. So you know, when we're
helping each other in our moving

into true identity, we have to
hold the other person in our

imagination in their true
identity and say, you know what,

they might be having a bad day
and operating in a false

narrative or false self, but I
am going to relate to them in

their true identity. I'm going
to believe the best about who

they are, and as you say, Jacob,
I'm going to talk about them the

way that God talks about them.
And then we have a community

that fights for each other in
the best way of relating to each

other in their true identities.
Like then, then the doings that

get in the way and and and
create our conflict get into the

right posture, get into the
right place, and we can handle

them in appropriate measure.

Jacob: Even before it's about me
being able to relate to others

in their being, it's being able
to relate to myself in my being.

Like Julia was talking about the
enemy's self, and that's like

that conversation I had with
this woman yesterday, talking

about how we build children's
ministry. We got to the end of

the conversation, really like it
was a pretty open-ended,

meandering conversation. We
shared more of our stories than

anything else. So I was sharing
with her the philosophy of the

church and how we got to where
we are. She was sharing with me

the story of the church she used
to go to in her career and

education, and we get to the
end. I was like, "Well, what was

most helpful about this
conversation? Because that's how

I end every conversation. And
and she said she looked at me,

and I could tell in her face
that we hadn't achieved what

she's what she wanted to achieve
in the conversation. And she

goes, "Well, I think maybe I
could have become more organized

for this. And and I said, "Yeah,
I could have too. I was like,

but I said, but let me be clear.
Like I, I'm not. I don't want to

tell you what to do. I actually
think you hold a part of this

project that I don't have, and
so I want to follow your lead in

where we're going together. And
to me, it was like the value of

the conversation was that we
related in our identities, and I

don't, I don't have a question.
She's competent, but see, for

her, she was going like, "How am
I qualified? How would I be

qualified to help shape
children's ministry? That's what

she's thinking to herself, and
thinking like, "If I don't know

what to do, I'm not qualified.
And I think what's what's

helpful about becoming good news
and about the content that we

worked on together is like no,
no, no. Your qualification

doesn't come from your doing; it
comes from your identity in

Christ, and and that's at the
core of this being doing thing

in in community and what it
means for us to be people

together.

Julia Schmaltz: Well, just that
I am not qualified as a false

identity. Just saying that out
loud is a false identity that we

can take to Jesus, and let us
tell us what's true.

Jacob: Cool. Any final thoughts
on being and doing in community

as we as we shape relationships
where true identity can

flourish?

Jessie Cruickshank: Just that
it's the whole point. It's hard.

It's messy. God made it that
way. He said it was good, and

it's the whole point. We're
formed in community. We're

formed. For community, it's not
a step in the action plan. It

is, it is plan A. It is plan A.
There is no other plan. You

don't get to get out of it and
be formed. You you got to

persist. So it's hard because
it's the right thing.

Julia Schmaltz: And our biggest
one of our biggest fears is

being alone. So to Jesse's
point, like that's the point.

Like, our fear is that we'll be
alone, and so that means that we

are made for community, and the
world needs you. Your community

needs you, and it's important
that we don't abandon each

other.

Jacob: All right. Well, on that
note, I'll say thank you for

joining us on the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast with Jesse

Cruikshank. We've been
discussing becoming good news,

reimagining discipleship through
identity, story, and science.

Find it on Amazon or wherever
books are sold, and we'll see

you next time.