Chris Johnson (00:02.429)
Welcome to the Ordinary Discipleship Podcast. My name is Chris. I'm here with the one and only Jesse and of course the very fantastic Jacob Hoyer. You know, relationships are one of the hardest things that we have to navigate in this world. I mean, they are tough. Whether it's a marriage relationship that might you might have put on on pause or whether it's a friendship, they all take a lot of work and sometimes they're intimidating. And so today we're going to look at

what it looks like to start a discipleship relationship. you know, whether you're the mentor or the mentee, a lot of people think it just boom happens magically. But that's not the case. In fact, discipleship actually takes some work. And so I've got two of experts with me here today to help answer these questions.

Jessie Cruickshank (00:56.873)
He must be talking about you, Jacob.

Chris Johnson (00:58.633)
Jacob. Yeah, go Jacob!

Jacob (00:58.691)
That's right. I'm an expert. I'll take it. No, I mean, I'll just say I'm an expert. mean, whatever. Call me an expert.

Chris Johnson (01:06.063)
expert I think we yeah yeah you're an expert I mean people come to you guys all the time and ask your advice on this I'd say that makes you an expert have you been paid to talk about this yes expert all right

Jessie Cruickshank (01:09.656)
Own it bro, own it.

Jacob (01:10.945)
ahem

Jacob (01:19.479)
Yeah.

Jacob (01:23.717)
Yeah, think like, think that is like in church and ministry spaces. I think a lot of times it's like. We might design a discipleship system or come up with a program. and particularly if you're talking about groups or, or, or even like, just helping people live out their calling, we could design how to talk about it. But then when you actually started to do it, that's when people start to get tripped up and they're like, well, but so how do we actually start? You know? And I think like,

Chris Johnson (01:50.089)
Great question.

Jacob (01:53.357)
You know, I don't know who said this first, but there's a saying about it. It's definitely a quotable. It's like life has to be lived forwards, but it can only be understood backwards. So what often happens is like we look back on a season of life and think about all the key relationships we've had and we imbued them with all this beauty and magic. And then we're like, how do I get that again? And you forget that it actually started pretty simply. It started with just hanging out, you know?

Chris Johnson (02:16.254)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Reminds me one time, Jesse, I want to tell you a quick story. Jacob had just come back from college. I've known Jacob for a long time. And we live on the same street here in beautiful Lake Mary, Florida. And Jacob called me and he said, Hey, I'm back from college. I'm going to come hang out with you. Let's play video games or something. I'm like, all right, cool. So I tell my wife about 40 minutes go by and no Jake. And I mean, he literally lives a two minute walk away from me.

And so I text Jake and I'm like, Hey buddy, are you okay? Did you fall asleep? What happened? He just sends back outside of the front door of his house. There's a big black bear in the trash can, like blocking his exit and he's digging for trash. I'm like, okay, Jake, I'll see you tomorrow. I'm probably not going to wrestle the black bear, but, you know, that started even, I don't know why I told that story, but it just cracks me up because,

Jacob (03:15.195)
Sometimes, what you're saying is sometimes a bear gets in the way of your disciple making relationships. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (03:18.537)
100 % and it might it might only be a couple of times out of a million but sometimes a bear a badger a wolf I don't know you know

Jessie Cruickshank (03:29.9)
We actually have a similar story that has to do with a raccoon raiding tents of students on our on the Wilderness Ministry program because they didn't listen to us and they had all their candy. They had all their candy in the tent. We're like, dude, you've got to you cannot have food in the tent, but they were sneaking their candy and like epic amounts of Twizzlers. I probably gave this raccoon diabetes and.

Chris Johnson (03:39.049)
The Imported Traction Off!

Chris Johnson (03:47.889)
you

Chris Johnson (03:52.297)
Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank (03:53.612)
You know, so we wake up in the middle of night to kids screaming and have to fight in the dark, fight off this raccoon with big branches and sticks. It's just, I don't know how to segue that back to our conversation, but it reminds me.

Chris Johnson (04:06.281)
I don't either. I've got a delightful raccoon shit story too that I won't share on this episode, but it's coming this season. But anyway, go ahead.

Jessie Cruickshank (04:16.59)
But I think sometimes we expect, we have a different expectation than reality, right? So, and if you can be friends, then you can make a disciple. If you can be friends, and a lot of discipleship relationships should start with, hey, can we be friends? Can we hang out? Do we have enough chemistry? Do we like each other enough to...

Chris Johnson (04:38.715)
And we will be friends.

Jessie Cruickshank (04:42.124)
like make this relationship a priority and not just a duty grind, I don't wanna really be with you kind of thing. So if we can be friends, then maybe we can be more intentional and we can add into that talking about God, talking about life. But if you aren't a very good friend, you're probably gonna really struggle with a discipleship relationship from either end.

Chris Johnson (05:00.296)
Get off!

Chris Johnson (05:05.273)
That's what I was going to ask. Can you disciple somebody that is just like nothing like you, that you don't have any common interests? Is that possible? Because we're a pretty small church right now and we're growing. I have some people in the church that are like, this is really cool right now. We've got all of our friends in the same place. We all kind of see the same way. I'm like, yeah, we've got to go out to the community and actually get people that aren't like us to come here.

You know, and sometimes that's the pushback, right? Like, so you mentioned that discipleship really kind of starts with friendship. I'm just wondering, can you disciple somebody who is not like you whatsoever?

Jessie Cruickshank (05:48.748)
Yeah, I I would hope that you could figure out how to be friends with somebody who is different than you, who might think different than you. I mean, there has to be some level of something of chemistry, I think, but if you can only be friends with people who are exactly like you, I don't know. I don't know how I think about that.

Chris Johnson (05:53.351)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Johnson (06:05.673)
Jake and I are friends and we're nothing alike. Jake and I are buddies. We're like the odd couple.

Jacob (06:11.055)
Yeah, think, well, I think that's.

It's like, are you willing to put yourself in a position where relationship conform, even if it's inconvenient or uncomfortable?

Chris Johnson (06:24.019)
Good point. Good point.

Jacob (06:25.273)
I remember like one of my closest friends now, it was like he and his wife moved to town. They came from North Carolina. They had friends up there who knew my wife from when they were kids. And so when they like they randomly ended up moving to our town and their friends in North Carolina said, we know people starting a church down there. You should meet them. And so like my wife and this guy's wife hung out and they hit it off.

And so I remember his first text message to me was like, Hey, apparently our wives are friends now maybe we should get breakfast. I'm like, that was the reason for us to get breakfast, you know? And then it just, I mean, it did happen that we had the similar interests were both like ministry nerds. And so we had that to talk about, but the next few times that I remember hanging out after that was like, we tiled his kitchen and we wrapped the beams on his porch because they were renovating a house. I've renovated a house.

Chris Johnson (07:10.089)
Yeah.

Jacob (07:22.713)
And then it's while we were doing those things, we ended up talking about what was meaningful to us. And I remember we were wrapping the beams on his porch when he asked me to be on his board of directors. Like, and then our relationship grew from there. And so, but in the beginning, I had no reason to think we would be friends other than the fact that we both needed a friend, you know?

Jessie Cruickshank (07:46.37)
It makes me think about how often, you know, people who say no to a discipleship relationship. So let's say someone comes to you and they want to be mentored and for whatever reason they asked you, right? One, that's amazing. But two, like, if you start thinking, like, there's just lots of ways you can start to make that weird, especially if you're thinking, well, now I have to be like their teacher or their seminary professor.

Chris Johnson (08:14.675)
Yeah. Right. Yes.

Jessie Cruickshank (08:16.341)
or their senior pastor, and you start putting this interesting hierarchy in it, or these interesting job dynamics, or that sort of thing. You don't have to do that. You can just give time. You can just have face time. You can just start asking them questions and get to know them and let the Lord highlight teachable moments. You don't have to make it formal. You don't have to make it weird.

Chris Johnson (08:22.729)
That's brilliant.

Jessie Cruickshank (08:46.19)
It may be formal, maybe that's your personality type. And I don't want to discount that, but formal isn't the only way. It's actually quite minor. It's the minority of the ways that this relationship actually rolls out. So can you make time for somebody and have them over in your life, invite them over for your projects, right? Those are all different ways to make time for people and, you know, get to know them.

Like, I hope that we could figure out how to be human enough because of Christ, because Christ is redeeming us and teaching us how to be fully human. That then we can be fully human with another person and help them figure out how to be more fully human because of Jesus. Because that's really all it's about. That's a lot, but that's all it's about.

Chris Johnson (09:35.047)
Yeah, know. Yeah. I know that the next time that I have home projects, I'm going to invite Jacob over for some discipling.

Jacob (09:45.325)
Mm-hmm. Well, actually what's funny is I was talking to that friend recently. I was like, we haven't hung out in a while I had a thought to invite you over to watch the magic game did then I used like Yeah, I had the thought the other night my wife said you need to hang out with somebody I thought I just want to work on this project by myself And so that's what he did that night. So now we're at a point in our lives where we'd like to work on projects by ourselves

Chris Johnson (10:05.371)
I get it.

Jessie Cruickshank (10:08.942)
So you need to go find someone to mentor and invite in and teach them some skills, right? Teach them some life skills. My husband and I remodeled the basements in our current house and then the house we had previously. And the house we had previously, like we would invite different people over to help us with different parts of that project and just talk to them. hear what's going into their life. Build relational, you know, have relationship, talk. Maybe we sow seeds.

Jacob (10:11.439)
Maybe.

Jessie Cruickshank (10:38.976)
Maybe we didn't, but having relationships with other adults, especially if there's a slight age differential, it just doesn't happen as often as it should be. So who's willing to pour into another person's life? And if you don't see your life responsibility as a follower of Jesus, as including pouring into somebody else's life, then you're just the end, right? You are the end, the goal, it's all about you.

It's all about whether, you know, how you feel, your health, what you want to learn, what you're interested in. And there's just nothing like that in the gospel. It's always about who are you sharing with? What are you a witness to? How are you talking about what God's teaching you? We are witnesses to our lives of lives with Jesus. And I guess I just don't have a paradigm, just like my paradigm of following Jesus includes prayer and read my Bible.

Chris Johnson (11:18.27)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie Cruickshank (11:38.048)
It also to the same extent includes sowing seeds in relationship and other people's lives.

Chris Johnson (11:46.153)
So do you do that? You mentioned your husband. Do you guys do that together with other couples or is it more of a one-on-one thing that you've done like in the past? What's it look like for you?

Jessie Cruickshank (11:59.192)
Sometimes we're better together and it's two of us ganging up on one person because we think about things differently and we're really complimentary in our personality types and the way that we articulate stuff. So sometimes, especially some of the harder cases, we may do that together because like one of us will be like, I don't know what to say or do and the other one will have some inspiration. But we also have people that we...

Chris Johnson (12:02.537)
Hahaha.

Jessie Cruickshank (12:24.952)
both disciple, that we disciple individually. So we both do individual discipleship and we do two on one discipleship and some couple discipleship. it's, I mean, just like we have friends in all those different kinds of categories, singles, married, you know, people who are my friends, but not his friends. There's not very many that we don't have, that we don't share in friendship, but it's just however the relationships roll out. So we don't have a formula. It just kind of forms as it does.

Chris Johnson (12:27.709)
Hmm.

Chris Johnson (12:31.561)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (12:53.737)
Gotcha. Jacob, you look like you're deep in thought over there. I'm just curious what's going through that cranium right there.

Jacob (12:59.675)
well, no, what I was thinking about was like, I think for me, most of the time, those relationships that are impactful, like I think, and I don't think about, this is a disciple making relationship. and I, and that's where like, was like listening to the way that, that, that question and answer was going between you and Jesse. And that's where I'm like thinking, I'm thinking about Jesse and Bob and I'm thinking, yeah, I think they have people in their lives who, who they're in relationship with.

And because Jesse thinks about discipleship professionally, she's going, yeah, this is a disciple making relationship. But for most of us, that's not how it plays out. It plays out that like, we just have relationships and we're Jesus people and we're letting Jesus move through us. And that's, think, that's what I was thinking about.

Chris Johnson (13:35.101)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Chris Johnson (13:46.257)
So I think, yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank (13:46.914)
No, I think that's totally right, Jacob. I mean, because I started in this world by thinking I was coached in the discipleship community that I was in, that we draw out and submit to the Christ in each other. So that means I'm both learning from you and I'm letting Jesus move and speak through me. And so there's this dynamic where we are people.

And we are letting God move through us to speak to each other, to speak to us through another person. And it was just a lifestyle of having relationships that included Jesus in them, not as an idea, not as a theology, but as an actual like Holy Spirit part of that relationship. So I love that.

Chris Johnson (14:39.517)
Yeah. that I was, I like Jake brings up a good point. Like I don't think of my friendships as like discipleship, opportunities, but the other day, three of my friends and I, cause we live in Florida and it's 75 degrees and we're not in Colorado where it's five degrees and we don't get basements because we're three feet above sea level. So you get the glorious basements, which we don't get. there's trade-offs to everything. but

The point is, I'm out there golfing the other day with three of my friends and we were just like talking about life and it kind of hit me because I was thinking, my gosh, I'm going to be on the discipleship podcast the other day, but we're talking about legit things. Like we're busting each other's chops because we're guys, but then eventually it comes to real topics. And I think like the key to it more often than not is just, I have the time and can, can I create a safe space for somebody to be honest?

and share their life and know that like, I'll be a sounding board and I'll speak truth and love and grace to them. and so many times, like I was reading this book, the other listening to this book, cause I don't read, but listening to this audible book where like, do you know what the number one invention that killed a community was?

I listened to the notes. This was like number one invention. This guy said this is the number one invention that really started to make human beings lose the communal aspect of society. No. Jesse. So close, so close air conditioning. was air conditioning because people would have the big decks outside and they would walk at night from house to house and have conversations. And so they would have these massive porches like in the South.

Jacob (16:12.325)
The Newspaper.

Jessie Cruickshank (16:15.607)
Indoor plumbing.

Jacob (16:16.859)
That was my other one.

Jacob (16:21.444)
Chris Johnson (16:31.815)
And then air conditioning was invented. Everybody went inside. Number two was the, was the garage, like the, the, the pull your car in and you go right into your house because like, I don't know about you, but when I would go home, we had the carport. I'd go home. I'd say hi to Mrs. Whitmer. Hi to Mrs. Smith. We all had a conversation. And now like the point that I'm trying to get to is that, so many of us, we just don't create the time or the space.

And we're so involved with our own palaces, many palaces in our houses that it just doesn't happen like it used to happen. And so it's kind of hard to push back against that.

Jessie Cruickshank (17:13.592)
So it's just one of those skills we have to like lean into, right? It may be less of an instinct these days and more of a skill we have to learn so that we can be a disciple maker or, and maybe that first skill is here's how to have a relationship with a different person, with another person. And if that's where we're at, that's where we're at.

Chris Johnson (17:16.53)
Yeah, yeah.

Chris Johnson (17:24.369)
in the system.

Chris Johnson (17:30.025)
I still think that your answer of indoor plumbing is super funny. Anyway, go ahead.

Jacob (17:32.89)
Well, and that's where I think like, and that's where I think like.

to the point that like, like to the point that we were originally making, like most people think a disciple making relationship begins with some sort of spark or magic. But I think, and that might be the moment we remember is the first time somebody spoke into our life or the first time we asked for help. But the fact of the matter is the relationship started a long time before that. And so if you want that magic moment, the way to get it is just to begin opening yourself up to the serendipity of relationship.

Chris Johnson (17:51.645)
Yeah. Great point.

Chris Johnson (17:59.241)
Mmm.

Chris Johnson (18:08.921)
And Jacob's really good at this actually. Like he'll have people over to his farmhouse. It's beautiful. It's got the acreage and he's got the horses, but he has these meals and, and his wife is like incredible at hospitality. so like, I think it is creating those spaces, creating those opportunities and pushing back as you said, Jesse, like, and, and kind of, you know, if you don't exercise those muscles, then we just become these introverts that live in this house and watch Netflix.

And I don't think that's what God made us for, you know? Right, right, right. Although it's easy, you know? And sometimes we need to bench.

Jessie Cruickshank (18:40.972)
Yeah, we're not very healthy when we do that, are we?

Jacob (18:48.987)
I'll say Chris mentions my wife who is great and I like to Chris's question earlier about like how Jesse and Bob disciple together I'll say like that My wife starts conversations and I end them so I'm actually like pretty uncomfortable at parties So I'll just like draft off of her and like if I ever like once I ended conversation I don't do next I just go find her and I kind of just stand on her shoulder, which is might sound weird, but it's easiest for me

And then she's usually started a conversation with somebody because she's better at that. And then something comes up that they want to talk about that might be a little deeper. And then that's where I can come in and then we can talk about that. And then that's when Aaron gets bored and moves on to the next conversation, which that she starts the next one. So when I finished this one, I can just go find her over there. So maybe sometimes you just need a good wingman.

Chris Johnson (19:24.712)
Yeah.

Chris Johnson (19:35.869)
I don't know when this episode's going to come out, but we just had my wife's works Christmas party and there was like 500 people at this thing. And I mean, I'm an extrovert and it was like a lot for me, you know? And my wife is exactly like Jacob, like I'll be the funny guy, start the conversation. She'll come in and finish it. Well, I had to preach the next day early, early 11 AM. But anyway, I had to go to bed at like midnight and the party went on until two.

I was surprised because I was sure that when I went upstairs, Jen was going to come upstairs. She stayed there until two in the morning. She came up and she goes, this was so invigorated. I didn't have you there. I had to make conversations and it was so fun. I'm like, that's great. There you go. Perfect. Let's go. Yes. Yeah, it was good. Okay. So what we've learned this episode, let's recap. We've learned that

Jessie Cruickshank (20:21.196)
All the different types of personalities. It's perfect. It's wonderful.

Chris Johnson (20:31.495)
We have to be intentional when it comes to discipleship. It doesn't happen in neutral. We have to create spaces and time for people and, we have to at some level, relate to them. And, it's not a project. Like I liked what Jake said, like, you know, one of my biggest pushbacks in college, when people tried to get me to go to church was that I felt like I was a number. I felt like it was a project to them. I hated that.

I absolutely hated that. And it wasn't until somebody didn't care about what church I went to, but actually cared about like what God was doing in my life, that a fundamental change took place in my life. And so I think as Jacob said, we all have those magic moments where we can remember a conversation where somebody spoke truth into our life and we're like, wow, this resonates, this hits. And as a Christian, we can't just be concerned about our own salvation, but we need to be looking for those opportunities. Right, Jesse?

Jessie Cruickshank (21:30.37)
Yep, you have to be others focused. It's healthier and it's what Jesus tells us to do.

Chris Johnson (21:32.797)
Yeah.

Yes, yeah. Even if they're a tax collector or a prostitute or a fisherman, we gotta go, all right? What?

Jacob (21:42.107)
or Republican or Democrat.

Jessie Cruickshank (21:45.923)
Or they have a bear outside their house and they can't get out to play video games.

Chris Johnson (21:51.219)
sweet, Jacob. All right. That's going to do it for this episode of Ordinary Discipleship Podcast. Please, whatever you're listening to this on, you know what? This thing's free, but you can do us a huge favor by what was that? By going and liking and also leaving a review. That helps other people to see this, and that's huge for us. And Jesse, if people want to know more about whoology, how do they find that information out?

Jacob (21:52.624)
Mm-hmm.

Jessie Cruickshank (22:21.154)
You go to your local forest and find an owl and you ask them who and they're going to tell you, they're going to tell you to go to w-h-o-o-l-o-g-y.co. That's whoology.co where you can find whatever latest thing we're doing as well as our Bible study that you can have in your church or in your small groups and walk through how to be an ordinary disciple maker.

Chris Johnson (22:23.849)
How many looks?

Chris Johnson (22:46.609)
And Jacob, you have the Whoology shirt on, you're on brand today. How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Titsy Roll Titsy Pump?

Okay, he's a biter. That guy's a biter. All right. Thank you so much for listening or watching or whatever you're doing right now, but we appreciate it and we'll see you next time. God bless. Bye bye.