Chris Johnson (00:03.145)
Welcome everybody to Ordinary Discipleship podcast. My name is Chris. I'm here with Jacob and of course the one and only Jesse. And today we are discussing a topic. You know, when it comes to youth ministry, so many people think that youth ministry has to be this big event. It's got to be fun and it's got to be like game driven and all this stuff. But what we're finding out is that young folk really need a mentor who has fought the fight to gain maturity.

And so it's kind of like this balance between evangelism and discipleship. And that's what we're going to be discussing today. Jesse, give us your take on this, Jesse, because I know kids, I've done youth group for 20 years. They like the games. They like the pizza. They like the fun. But then all of a sudden it's like, if you have too much of that, what are we really doing? Are we just holding a like a like a boys and girls club with no real discipleship?

There's got to be some kind of balance to it, right?

Jacob (01:09.361)
Jesse, you're muted.

Chris Johnson (01:09.449)
I don't hear you, Jesse.

Jessie Cruickshank (01:12.27)
my gosh. So I like to think about it like spiritual food. Do you need me go back and say that again so we can edit this part out?

Chris Johnson (01:13.601)
No, no, no, it's fine. think that's going to be really cute.

Jessie Cruickshank (01:23.822)
my gosh, I'm on mute, right? Cause you know, no one can figure out how to work technology after 50 years.

Chris Johnson (01:33.377)
good. That's it. That's it. That's it.

Jessie Cruickshank (01:34.408)
So good. So real, real talk, real talk podcast.

So kids like sugar, right? They would rather eat the cookie, the candy cane. They don't want the vegetables. They don't, they maybe will want the meat out of the taco, right? But like, just because that's all a kid wants doesn't mean it's the only thing they should eat. So why do we have that? We can have healthy paradigms for the way that we feed them.

Chris Johnson (01:49.057)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (01:54.976)
Maybe.

Jessie Cruickshank (02:10.678)
Naturally, why can't we have healthy paradigms for how we feed them spiritually? Like, where did we decide that spiritual candy cane and, you know, candy corn was the best that we had to offer them? So I'm not anti games, games illuminate character, but like, can they become teachable moments? Can we?

Can we understand that kids don't necessarily know how to ask for what they need and it's our responsibility to be the spiritual adult in the room and be helpful in that direction. you know, as we're talking, I've been thinking about our conversation with Reina and how she actually like, you could hear it. And if you haven't heard that podcast, like pause this one, go back and listen to the other one with her and

Chris Johnson (02:53.633)
Mmm.

Chris Johnson (03:00.843)
Definitely.

Jessie Cruickshank (03:03.66)
She wanted substance. She wanted authentic relationship, not just with a person, but also with God, right? So she understood and had this deep ache to have deep, real relationship with God and then have real relationship with people who would help her have a deeper relationship with God. She didn't just want to be entertained in her spirituality or given a pass. And I think that's actually the

what kids feel, especially in the teenage years. They want something of substance. They already think they're adults anyway, right?

Chris Johnson (03:36.651)
Hmm.

Chris Johnson (03:41.601)
True, true, Yeah, 100%. I know I got a 20 year old and a 16 year old. Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank (03:47.918)
So why do we, I don't know, why are we still trying to entertain them instead of helping them have some of those deeper, more intensive conversations that their heart is really yearning for?

Chris Johnson (03:58.955)
So I've thought about this a lot, Jesse, and I'm to get to you, Jacob, and get your opinion. But I thought about this a lot as somebody who was trying to grow a youth group and all the kids that would say, no, I'm not going to go to some Bible study, trying to have this mix of engaging games, but then really having this moment where you can learn more about them and have fun and be authentic with them.

It just seems like it's a fine balance and it feels like a lot of times we don't get it right. Jacob, what's your opinion on that? What do you think? Like you've been part of

Jacob (04:33.991)
Well, I think it's like we're talking a lot about like, like I think in the beginning of this conversation is about the substance of the programming. But I think what we're really saying is like, it's actually about the nature of the connection. It's like I was in a church who was looking to replace a youth person and there was a young guy on their board who was like, we just need to find the church in the country that's the biggest youth group and then convince that guy to come here. That's what he said. And he did say guy. And

Chris Johnson (04:47.679)
Hmm.

Chris Johnson (04:57.91)
Right.

Jessie Cruickshank (05:01.485)
you

Jacob (05:03.045)
And I think it's like, I, as I was, I was in that church as a consultant. And so I was in a position to push a little bit. And I was like, do you care at all, whether that person's discipled any of those people or just as they've gathered a crowd? And I think like, I think, I think that's what we're really getting at. It's like, sure. If you, if you, if you, if fun activities become a hook to get kids in a room, that's fine. But, but what we're saying is like, what, what

young folks are really craving is an authentic relationship where they can be discipled by somebody who's been where they are before. And so it doesn't matter what workbook we use or what illustration we use. It's about how we develop that relationship and that conversation in the one on.

Chris Johnson (05:38.763)
Mm.

Chris Johnson (05:50.282)
Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank (05:50.328)
Yeah, I mean, the brain science backs that up like so significantly because in those teenage years, their character, their identity is formed by modeling after others around them. So they will start to copy those around them. They'll try out different groups to try out different identities. But if you want to help them have a chance of spiritual maturity later, you need spiritually mature people.

around them that are in their life enough for them to copy, for them to model after, for them to emulate. And one of my biggest pet peeves, and this has been a, you know, it's a little bit, I try not to get on my soapbox too much here, but when we take the least spiritually mature person and put them in charge of the kids and the youth, what does that say that we value? I think,

the kids and the youth should be the coolest, oldest person, right? Or maybe not even that cool, but if the kids think that they're cool, like who knows what kids find cool any one day of the year, but that you have a spiritually mature person in there to help them walk through stuff, to help answer some of those questions that they have and wrestle through who aren't afraid of those questions. But when we put the least spiritually immature person,

a least spiritually mature person on the staff in charge, that just says we don't really care about the formation of that youth group.

Chris Johnson (07:19.425)
That is so true. That is so true because I was 20 years ago, the least spiritually mature person and they put me in charge of children's church. And I was like, what am I doing here? And then I looked across the hall and leading the middle school at Jake and I's previous church was this couple that had been married for 50 years. They were like in their eighties and they were just doing like basic stuff, but the middle schoolers loved them.

And, it was such, that's such a good point. think so many times when we're doing like youth or kids church, we think we have to have the young hip person come in and do it. And so many times that's not the most mature person and it's not the wisest choice. We just think that if we throw in an old couple that actually are spiritually mature, it's going to drive people away. And that's just not the fact.

Jacob (08:12.967)
Well, I think like, so this is an issue, like we can apply it to youth and young adult ministry, but I think what it reveals is the struggle with our discipleship systems across the whole church. Because if I'm a church leader who is supposed to identify somebody to lead the youth or young adult ministry, my default definition is, well, discipleship happens in a program, program happens in a room where you get some people together.

Chris Johnson (08:26.657)
Mm.

Jessie Cruickshank (08:26.915)
Yeah.

Jacob (08:42.855)
I don't know how to get high schoolers in a room. Let's just find a person who can get high schoolers in a room. And we think getting high schoolers in a room is just cycling down. Say it again.

Chris Johnson (08:47.093)
Right. And it's not like a lot of people are jumping up and down. It's not like a lot of people are jumping up and down for that job. I'll be honest. I I've got a new church plant.

Jacob (08:54.735)
Right, exactly. so like, but if you said, yeah, but if you said like, Hey, do you want to help shape the spiritual perspective of some young people? That's a different ask than can you keep young people occupied for an hour and a half?

Chris Johnson (09:06.305)
Are you a babysitter or are discipling people?

Jacob (09:09.831)
Well, and I think, and that's where I think then the question becomes, even in our adult programming, are we discipling people or are we just babysitting them or entertaining them? And I think that's like our default definitions of discipleship have become, get people in a room and occupy them for a couple of hours, use some discussion questions and call it good. And I think like, that's how we end up saying, well, youth group is just fun and games, right? Yeah. I don't know if I'm being too provocative here.

Chris Johnson (09:15.157)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (09:19.145)
Right. Right.

Chris Johnson (09:26.815)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (09:36.779)
Yeah, that's true. You are kind of provocative. That's your thing. I get it. That's why we brought you on. Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank (09:41.08)
love it.

Jacob (09:43.249)
Yeah.

Jacob (09:46.95)
Bye.

Jessie Cruickshank (09:48.898)
I think it reveals this, don't actually value spiritual maturity. maybe we don't value, I mean, I'm interested in what you guys think on why, if I'm gonna take a stab at it, I think we just don't have an image for it. We don't have an imagination for it. don't, I don't know if we know even what it looks like, or if it's possible to help somebody get there. I mean, in my work, I hear a lot of

the question, you know, can people really change? Do people really change? so spiritual maturity, I don't know, maybe people just have given up on it. I don't know. Like, like, what do you guys think?

Chris Johnson (10:27.679)
Yeah. So I think I was listening to this sermon by one of my favorite pastors. and he's, he's a Lutheran guy and he used to teach, PhD students at the seminary. And he said, a PhD in theology does not make you spiritually mature. It makes you smart in theology, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you've, you know, you're spiritually mature. And, and so I think.

You know, the question is, what does spiritually mature look like? You know, like, what is that? And I've been contemplating this question a lot. Like I was thinking to myself when Jesus was on the cross and you know, he's dying and he looks out and he says, father, forgive them. They don't know what they've done. I'm like, holy crap. I cannot imagine being level 20 Jesus. Like I cannot imagine getting beaten down, getting spit on, having the power to pull myself off a cross.

And then saying, I'm going to die for them and God forgive them. You know, like to me, that's the picture of spiritual maturity that I don't think, you know, a lot of us can even contemplate at this point, but yeah, I don't know, Jake, what do you think?

Jacob (11:43.111)
Well yeah, and I think that's like, I don't know who to cite for this, but in some of the curriculum that we use that Jess and I have used before, we talk about how spiritual maturity is not a destination to achieve, but it's actually about recognition and recovery rate. So how quickly do I recognize my need for a savior and return to the cross?

Chris Johnson (11:58.847)
Interesting.

Chris Johnson (12:03.189)
That's interesting because I've been thinking it the opposite way. and so it's nice to hear it's refreshing to hear that because I think of like sanctification as this process, like your, you know, your dad, great pastor Paul Hoyer would always like do this sermon once a year where he'd get a potter up there and he'd have a lump of clay and he'd be doing the sermon. I'd be so distracted by the clay on the wheel, but you know, you start off as this lump of clay and at the end it's this beautiful vase.

And like, that's the journey that we're walking through. it's, it's, that's helpful as well. yeah, I don't know, Jesse help us out.

Jacob (12:39.815)
Well, I think, go ahead.

Jessie Cruickshank (12:39.822)
So it's like, well, I was just thinking, you know, I just love thinking about people like Raina in the Gen Z years and the young people these days and how hard their world really is. Like, I think about how hard and complicated it was for us when we were younger or maybe Jacob just a little after that, like when we were in middle school and Jacob was kind of, you know, walking around in diapers. But,

Chris Johnson (12:47.745)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (12:54.849)
100%.

Chris Johnson (13:06.645)
Diapers.

Jessie Cruickshank (13:10.136)
how hard it is for them today compared to that because we didn't have, there was just so much less complexity. There was so much less things to be afraid of. Climate change didn't exist yet. I mean, it did, but like nobody, like it was just in the research phase. And then this generation right now, all they have is pain and all they have is, you know, they're constantly being traumatized and triggered and there are these,

Chris Johnson (13:20.406)
Yes!

Chris Johnson (13:24.854)
We didn't know it. Right.

Chris Johnson (13:38.877)
Thank

Jessie Cruickshank (13:40.138)
epic human-like level catastrophic impending crisis all around them. And it's upsetting and overwhelming for us, but they grew up in that and they have no voice and no agency. And so when I talk to them, you know, what they're looking for isn't necessarily answers, but how do I keep going? They're looking for hope. They're looking for how do I trust Jesus in the midst of this? Because they have no hope that it actually gets better.

Chris Johnson (13:47.658)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (14:03.265)
Right.

Jessie Cruickshank (14:08.824)
They're just trying to survive emotionally and having people who can be mentors and models who have been married for 50 years like that couple, who have been through this stuff, who can say, wow, here's how I have made it this far and I still love Jesus and I still trust God and I still have hope. Like they need those messages. They don't need the popcorn and the candy canes. They need substance.

Chris Johnson (14:32.193)
you

Jessie Cruickshank (14:38.028)
because their life isn't gonna get easier.

Chris Johnson (14:41.557)
Right. Well, and I was thinking about it. OK.

Jacob (14:42.651)
Yeah, and so I think that's where it's like, what I think like, some of what we're saying here about youth and young adult ministry has always been true, right? yeah, ministry has always been, let me show you how to recover to Jesus. And what you just said, Jesse, though, is highlights the fact that like, in the past, maybe it was easier to like, or recovering to Jesus, you could count on there being some sort of respite from your difficulty. But now,

Chris Johnson (15:11.627)
Mm-hmm.

Jacob (15:12.507)
the difficulty seems more incessant kind of with the reality that our younger generations are living in now. And so it's all the more imperative that they have a good mentor who can help them get back to the cross.

Chris Johnson (15:25.045)
Yeah. And I mean, to, touch on that, like I'm literally sitting in the school that I teach in 11th and 12th grade theology just taught this morning. And I had a student come in the other day and they said, you know, what sucks about being an 11th 12th grade right now is that you go to on social media and you see all your friends just got invited to a party you didn't get invited to. see like, and it's this comparison trap and like, you know, you,

You get into an argument or you get bullied at school and then you go home. And like for us, the respite was going home. Like, you know, like you're safe. You don't have to worry about it. Now it travels on social media and the friends start sharing it. And it's like this loop that they can't escape from. I just, I feel so bad for them. Like, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's tough, man. It's tough.

Jacob (16:21.699)
Yeah, so I think as we think about what it means to disciple these folks, I think there's an invitation and a challenge to say, how do we find the person who's most spiritually equipped, not just programmatically equipped to connect with them? And then how do we even hold ourselves as leaders accountable to the maturity necessary to walk alongside of folks who are having that difficulty?

Chris Johnson (16:36.833)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (16:47.467)
Yeah. So what's that person like dig into that a little bit. What's that person look like? Like, what is that? You know, like if you're out there and you're listening to this podcast and you've just gone through a bunch of people. And I mean, right now the pool is very small too. Like we've been looking, I mean, people are looking for youth pastors and good youth pastors are becoming senior pastors. Now they're like there and, and the pool is very, very small.

So I'm just wondering like Jesse and Jake, what does that, what does it look like if you're trying to hire somebody for that position to lead and disciple your students?

Jacob (17:34.535)
Well, I'll say, go ahead, Jesse.

Jessie Cruickshank (17:38.796)
No, no, it's okay. I was gonna let you go.

Jacob (17:45.145)
like I always like to begin with who has God already given us. And so like, if we believe that like the Lord gives us all that we need, then as a church, we might begin with the assumption that the person we need at God has already given us. And that's like sort of like your story there about the folks across the hall who were already teaching middle school and you needed some insight on how to teach kids. And I think when we stopped saying,

Chris Johnson (18:09.441)
Mm-hmm.

Jacob (18:12.881)
Well, we need somebody really charismatic and exciting. And we started saying, we just need somebody with some wisdom to share who can build a relationship. You know, we might already have that person. And then it's about, it's not about saying, Hey, how can you build the biggest and best program? It's about saying, Hey, how can you build a relationship with these young people so that they're not alone in their faith development, but they've got somebody to walk with. And so I think the person you're looking for then.

Chris Johnson (18:38.817)
Hmm.

Jacob (18:41.753)
is somebody who can build a relationship and who's willing to roll with kids being young folks being in process and not fully formed.

Chris Johnson (18:53.341)
Right. Like I, I, I gonna make a lot of mistakes and you have patience and grace and mercy. Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank (19:04.746)
Jacob, I love that you keep calling them folks. if I always. That they need to be elders like kids love grandparents and that kind of like there's an affinity in that kind of relationship. I and I've always leaned towards, you know, like like Jacob is saying, who's already here because you need people who are part of your community.

Chris Johnson (19:16.182)
No.

Jessie Cruickshank (19:34.42)
You need people that the kids can trust will still be there to some degree, right? When you have high turnover in your youth leader, that's extraordinarily destabilizing for the faith formation of those kids. Extraordinary. Extraordinarily destabilizing. so, elders and older people, so older people who also have the wisdom, know how to form relationship, and could they be spiritual grandparents?

to these kids. If they're retired, you know, they're going to have the most time. They may not have a lot of energy, but okay, maybe you've got, you know, you can do a strategy on who leads games and what kind of games they are and that sort of thing, because that's not the substance. The substance of it is that relationship full of wisdom and grace. And that would be who I would look for. Who's grandpa, who's grandma, and would thrive.

Chris Johnson (20:27.465)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank (20:32.278)
out of that kind of dynamic.

Chris Johnson (20:34.475)
Fantastic. All right. This has been, I love this topic because this is something I've been working with for the last 20 years of my life. And I think a lot of good stuff, especially with Raina on the previous episode, as Jesse said, if you haven't heard that episode, please go back and check that out. it was really compelling, but any final comments on this topic, Jacob and Jesse.

Chris Johnson (20:59.273)
Okay, so that's no. Alright, so we want to thank you guys for joining us for ordinary discipleship podcast. Thank you so much like and subscribe. It really helps if you go and wherever you're hearing this podcast like it and leave a review. It helps us to be found by other people and Jesse. What about if they want to learn more about discipleship and what you and Jacob are doing?

Where do people go?

Jessie Cruickshank (21:31.598)
If you want to learn more about discipleship, go find the old people in your church. But if you want to learn more about what hoology is doing, you can go to hoology.co. That's W-H-O-O-L-O-G-Y dot C-O. Jacob and I have church equipping trainings. We can train your team. We can help you think about what does spiritual maturity even mean. We'll be releasing the different webinars. We'll talk about that as well.

you can interact with those or interact with the podcast.

Chris Johnson (22:01.313)
Awesome.

So how did you come up with the name Huology? I think people are probably wondering that. How did that happen?

Jessie Cruickshank (22:09.934)
Well, they say that a good name helps you, leads you to ask a question. And I know, right? And so then the question that whoology is, is, is who? And our different parts of our training, we have four different types of training. So the training is who are you discipling? That's our ordinary discipleship. Who are you influencing? That's our ordinary authority.

Chris Johnson (22:16.629)
I just did.

Chris Johnson (22:25.121)
Hmm.

Chris Johnson (22:33.611)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Johnson (22:38.177)
Mm.

Jessie Cruickshank (22:38.36)
Who are you churning with or who's your community? And that's our ordinary community. And who are you becoming? And that's our ordinary maturity tool set. So we have these different tool kits all around the question of who, which would be who are you becoming? Who are you discipling? You know, it's relationship. It's all about relationship.

Chris Johnson (22:47.755)
Awesome.

Chris Johnson (22:56.895)
Love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Guys, thank you so much for joining us and don't forget to subscribe. We'll see you next time on the Ordinary Discipleship Podcast. God bless.