00;00;00;05 - 00;00;20;05
Jessie
Hello and welcome to the Ordinary Discipleship Podcast. I'm Jessie Cruickshank, and today I have with me Willie Robinson from Duck Commander, Duck Dynasty and author of a new book, The Gospel. So we're going to talk about being a gospel singer and sharing the gospel message today. So if you want to know more about Willie, you can always Google him.

00;00;20;05 - 00;00;32;24
Jessie
I'm sure it's out there, but we're we're going to talk about what it's like to share Jesus. And yeah, the difference that Jesus can make in our lives today. So super excited to have you on, Willie. Thank you so much for.

00;00;32;25 - 00;00;50;26
Willie
What is up. It's good to be here. How are you? I mean, I was just telling you, I've been listening to your voice, listening to your book. So, Yeah, you were praying while ago, and I was like, it's like back on the airplane, listening to listening to Jesse's voice. Now I see your face. So it's it's it's all coming together.

00;00;50;28 - 00;00;54;19
Jessie
That's okay. My husband says I have a face for radio, so it works.

00;00;54;21 - 00;00;56;16
Willie
Come on, guys.

00;00;56;18 - 00;01;21;26
Jessie
No, it's not true. It would be more effective if I said that. My goodness. Well, no, it's it's it's good. It's good to be in the space. And, I just got done reading your book and your book, and I didn't get the audiobook, so, you know, I'm reading the words, not the not the audio, but, gospel or not, not actually an English word.

00;01;21;29 - 00;01;34;00
Jessie
So it would you would you share with us what a gospel is and why? Wow. Why? Why write a book and call it that?

00;01;34;03 - 00;01;51;27
Willie
Sure. There. Okay. So I'm going to reference it as gospel or just because I'm not a linguist, I just when I hit the button on the computer, that's how she pronounced it. And so and that's, I probably said the word a few more times than you have. So if you hear me say that, I think it's either way.

00;01;52;03 - 00;02;15;05
Willie
Corey said we should have put two hours and it would look more like a speller. She's an English major. She is the one who actually found the word. It's an old word that simply means someone who shares the gospel, publicly or personally. It used to be, even in America. It used to be, commonplace.

00;02;15;05 - 00;02;44;03
Willie
And, so you're talking about a couple hundred years ago, and it so the idea was like, it's not necessarily pastor, y'all was like just regular people. And they were called known gospel, in Europe as well. And so you can find, books about it. And, we even found it in an old law, I think it was in Massachusetts that said, no one can stop a priest, a pastor, or a known speller from sharing their faith, like in the town square or something.

00;02;44;05 - 00;02;54;21
Jessie
No, I love this. You're already school in me. You're already put me in my place like it's perfect. So is it like the word that pre-dates evangelist or revenge up like like evangelism?

00;02;54;23 - 00;03;16;06
Willie
Well, see, that's the thing. So when I was writing the book about sharing the gospel, the the names I had were originally around evangelist however, you know, there is references to an evangelist in the Bible. And so, it's a little tricky with that. And wasn't quite sure, but that's where I was kind of hidden.

00;03;16;06 - 00;03;39;05
Willie
And then she basically just did a word search on evangelist, and that was the one of the words that popped up. And I was like, oh, this is such a cool word. And it didn't fall short on me that, you know, we no longer have that word in the language that we speak, mostly, in fact, even pastors or wordsmiths and people that I know around the country.

00;03;39;07 - 00;03;56;01
Willie
No one had ever heard of that wasn't like, oh, you know, gospel or, you know, yeah, I've heard that word. And so that's kind of went away and as a dinosaur. And then I think in some ways as well, people being known just for sharing the gospel, maybe not as strong as it, was at some point either.

00;03;56;01 - 00;04;13;24
Willie
So, yeah, I think the idea of bringing something back in the culture, a word and an idea, but more importantly, actually people knowing how to share the gospel with other people. So that was a little bit of the genesis of the book, and kind of how it got named. And so Corey came in and said, hey, I found this word and I think it's really cool.

00;04;13;27 - 00;04;37;29
Willie
And I was like, that is perfect. And so that's where the that's where the book got its name. And then the subtitle, Turning Darkness into light, one conversation at a time. Very interestingly, that so I was trying to figure out what the subtitle should be, and, I was actually struggling with that, and I was, I'm a business guy.

00;04;37;29 - 00;05;08;13
Willie
And so we have some optics for one of my company for Buck commander, and we've got this new feature that you. So. Right when, if you're an outdoorsman, you're outside, you're, there's a certain time the sun goes down and it's still legal to hunt. However, the light is leaving there quickly. And so we had this technology where you hit a button, and I know how it pulls all this light in, but it literally goes from, you know, almost dark to light.

00;05;08;16 - 00;05;31;22
Willie
And so I was looking at the deck for the advertised for it and it said turn light to, turn dark to light. And I was like, that's the subtitle of the book. And that's right. Which is kind of interesting because I'm a, I'm a businessman who also, shares the gospel. And then here you have this, the name of the book, which is, was a collaboration with Cody and I, which we've always worked together in business.

00;05;31;22 - 00;05;56;07
Willie
And then you have this business, that idea that was on that was going to be in marketing pulled as a subtitle of the book. And and so it went from Turning Darkness to light, one conversation at a time, because that's what, can happen. And so, yeah, that's kind of where, some of the beginnings of the, the idea of the book came along, the title, the name of kind of the old to new.

00;05;56;09 - 00;06;22;05
Willie
And I feel like what you've read, the book, but in a lot of ways it's a throwback. It's like, a lot of scriptures, a lot of. So it's not like some super nuanced, when you look at it, it's like, here's what the Bible says, and here's some stuff that I've done and tried and here's, you know, many ways were work and some were it may seem like it doesn't work, but, you know, when you plant a seed, you never know when that's going to come up.

00;06;22;07 - 00;06;42;17
Jessie
Right? And in the book you do, you do kind of walk through some of those different types of conversations, which is really good. And I mean, when I think about evangelists and I've been in this world a long time to, you know, in the ministry and, and being with people who love Jesus, who are trying to help other people know about Jesus.

00;06;42;19 - 00;07;19;15
Jessie
When you focus on Evangel evangelism, sometimes they just think about like it's one conversation, right? It's a conversion conversation. And and what I appreciated about your book is you talked about conversations that happened before that conversation. Some examples of what, you know, that conversation could look like, when somebody does give their life to Jesus or asked Jesus to be Lord of their life, and then follow up once like, like the additional ones, I mean, for me, one thing I super appreciated was you talking about baptism just because that's important to me as well.

00;07;19;15 - 00;07;37;17
Jessie
Like my mom, my mom was a witch before she was a Christian and she so was before I was born. But like she goes into the water and she gets exercise going into the water and she comes up out of the water speaking in tongues and I don't know if that lines up with, you know, your theology or anybody who's listening to that.

00;07;37;17 - 00;08;02;18
Jessie
But my takeaway from that was that baptism is important. Yeah, baptism is a big deal. And you and you include that in here as part of that. And that's not something that I, I come across very often. You can you speak to like, you know, where maybe where that comes from, that conviction for you. Because like I said, it's not it's not as common as it should be.

00;08;02;20 - 00;08;28;07
Willie
Well, it comes from the New Testament. So that's the easiest answer I can give you either. I mean, I didn't mention it as many times as I read it in the New Testament. Again, an old idea. I don't know how that got, redacted, I guess, from the New Testament, but it seems like, you know, John comes along with this baptism of repentance.

00;08;28;09 - 00;08;54;19
Willie
Jesus is baptized, then he leaves. And at that point, now that's why I get really interested in the New Testament. Is what happened when Jesus left. I understand when he was here, he was saying all, all sorts of things, but that's God. That's Jesus. Walk around talking to people. I'm a little hesitant to say all the things that Jesus Christ himself said or what he told people.

00;08;54;19 - 00;09;25;03
Willie
I'm, obviously I'm listening and learning, but, you know, the I guess the end of the gospel hadn't happened. We they didn't know whether or not it was true or not. Until he comes back from the dead, which he predicted he would do. So now, that is happen. One of the big crux is of my entire book is based on Matthew 28 that that great commission, go and make Disciples of all Nations, which, you wrote about, baptism, which is right there.

00;09;25;03 - 00;09;49;22
Willie
It's the second one listed. And then teaching people. So three specific things in baptism. Baptism is one of the ones mentioned. Not repentance, not prayer. And I mean, there's a lot of, you know, godly things that weren't mentioned there. And then what happens? So you go to the book of acts. So Jesus is still around. Jesus leaves.

00;09;49;25 - 00;10;15;05
Willie
He says, wait for the helper to come. Spirit is coming. I won't call it the spirit. I know you like that. And spirit shows up and I'm sure they thought, how will we know? There will be no doubt. Who's here? Spirit comes. Then we have the first sermon since Jesus had left. And so, just as a human being, I'm really interested in, like, what did he say?

00;10;15;05 - 00;10;35;00
Willie
What did Peter said? Well, he tells them the gospel, Jesus was the you by miracle signs. You would that we come put him to death by name him to a cross. But God raised him from the dead. So there's essentially the good news. You did something bad, but there's good news. He came back when the people heard this, too.

00;10;35;02 - 00;10;55;18
Willie
37 when the people heard this, they were cut to the heart. They said, everyone around them, what shall we do now? To me, that's the moment, you know, whatever he's going to say, they're I'm really going to, pay attention. And as everyone knows, he says, bow your hands, no one looking around and raise your hand.

00;10;55;20 - 00;10;57;15
Willie
And,

00;10;57;18 - 00;11;00;18
Jessie
And speak to one of the elders at the end if you want to get a Bible.

00;11;00;23 - 00;11;20;06
Willie
He doesn't say that. He says, repent and be baptized for forgiveness of your sins. And you can also get this Holy Spirit. You know, about 3000 people were baptized. Right then, you know, there was no way there wasn't a come back next quarter. We're going to have things set up and all this.

00;11;20;11 - 00;11;21;24
Jessie
New a new believer's class.

00;11;22;01 - 00;11;59;14
Willie
Yeah, we're gonna have a photo booth. And, so, so that's why, I mean, that's, one of the things, with, with this, especially baptism and, I feel like that's one, you know, when you start taking things out and going, well, it'll be easier. And I don't think it's from a bad heart, but I think if you start taking things out and make it so short and so quick and I guess on set like this, it doesn't surprise me when a lot of people go, you know, I view it in the same line as marriage, you know, I don't, you know, marriage is not just a raise your finger go.

00;11;59;15 - 00;12;23;03
Willie
Yeah. I mean, you know, they won't let me buy a car like that. My, electric company doesn't go, and I'm good, you know? I'm good for it, you know? No, there's, you know, certainly can buy a house like that. Like there's a process. There's a there's a thinking. I think Jesus covered in Luke 14 the cost of being a disciple, you know, to sit down or actually says literally sit down and think about this.

00;12;23;06 - 00;12;47;04
Willie
And so I think it's all of those things play into it. And then, and then Romans six, I feel like what Peter didn't say, Paul comes back and explains it a lot more in depth in Romans six, in the first four verses of that, you know, where this so which I will say, then shall we just keep sinning so that grace may increase, which was I know a lot of people who have lived their lives like that.

00;12;47;04 - 00;13;05;12
Willie
They're like, well, I guess we get forgiveness, so let's just get after it, you know, and we'll get more grace. Even if we mess up. And Paul says how? You know, by no means or no way. You know, we died to that. So there's a death. So it's a don't you know, those are who are baptized.

00;13;05;12 - 00;13;26;28
Willie
Matt doesn't do his death, and we're therefore buried with him in baptism and death and all of that, just as Christ was raised from the dead, the boy, the father, we, too may live a new life. And so one of the questions I often ask people, it's a simple question is when did your new life begin? When did that start?

00;13;27;00 - 00;13;48;00
Willie
No judgment. I just want, you know, as same as I would ask, you know. Hey, when do you get married? And, so it's interesting about that if I ask you, hey, are you married? And the answer's yes or no or or it's yes or no? Yeah. There's no, you know, would be interesting if you were, say, if you were to say, I don't know, I'm not sure if I am or not.

00;13;48;01 - 00;14;05;16
Willie
I haven't thought about that in a long time. That would be a bizarre answer. I felt like to if you were married. And so, however, when I ask people about a new life or about Jesus or about, something spiritual, what I often get is a lot of times a real. I'm just not sure I hope I am.

00;14;05;18 - 00;14;20;26
Willie
And so if you ask me, was I married? And I said, I hope I am, I don't I really don't know. You know, I hope I hope I am and haven't thought about her in a long time. I haven't seen her in a while, you know, in a couple of years, you know, and I need to get back there, you know?

00;14;20;29 - 00;14;45;25
Willie
And so, so. Yeah. So if you go back to Matthew 28, the Great Commission. So, there's three things there. And I think it's so important. I know a lot of believers who live their whole lives, and they're nowhere near those three. They're nowhere near those anywhere, those three. And so each one of those three requires you to have a conversation, except, I guess online.

00;14;45;25 - 00;14;49;05
Willie
I guess you could post stuff up really.

00;14;49;08 - 00;14;52;18
Jessie
I actually have baptized somebody over zoom before, but that like.

00;14;52;20 - 00;14;55;17
Willie
Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Now it's kind technology. It's interesting.

00;14;55;19 - 00;14;56;28
Jessie
It is a little later, but I think.

00;14;56;28 - 00;15;16;12
Willie
At the base level, each one of those three has to have a conversation, you know? Yeah. You're not going to make a disciple without having a conversation. You're not going to baptize somebody. For the most part without a conversation. I the I did baptize about 100 Romanian women, I believe, in Jerusalem. And we actually didn't have a conversation.

00;15;16;12 - 00;15;27;23
Willie
I think I had. I looked like Jesus just came to me and asked me what I mean, the one. And by the way, they all want to get dunked three times. Which I didn't even.

00;15;27;26 - 00;16;04;11
Willie
Say, I did do that. And certainly you're not going to teach people about Jesus without a conversation. And so that's kind of the crux. And then I make a point in the book, to where if you think like, well, that was just for them, that wasn't for everyone, you know, and I and I, you know, that was just for them because those are really holy, spiritual people, you know, who are disciples and but if you go to acts chapter four, they're described by their by their peers and by the people in their community as average unschooled people.

00;16;04;18 - 00;16;31;24
Willie
So that's how people looked at them. And so if you can find yourself in that category as, it's not as some reverend or priest or pastor or whatever, you're just a regular person, perhaps unschooled, an ordinary person. Then that calling and I think it fell on everyone. And so there's a lot of people, I think, who disqualify themselves because they think, well, and then there's a whole list of those, you know, I don't know the Bible well enough.

00;16;31;24 - 00;16;57;13
Willie
That's usually one of the top ones. I'm sure, if they've been in church for a while, they say it's not my gift. And so again, back to that one. Like, it would be like if I told Corey, I'm never going to mention you to anyone else, but I know because it's not my gift. And I think, I think she would probably argue with me that you don't have to talk about someone, that you have a relationship.

00;16;57;13 - 00;17;22;22
Willie
I may have mentioned her name a few times just in our conversation, because we have a relationship, because we're around each other, because we talk often. And, and that's going to that's obviously going to come out. And so, so I think if you get the mission wrong, so as you live your life as a believer, if that mission is off, I mean, in light, you may come to the Lord.

00;17;22;22 - 00;17;39;28
Willie
And no one ever told you that was part of the deal. Like, and kind of like the what if it's the whole deal that only has about you giving it away, which is why Jesus came to this earth, was to, for other people. Like he told Zacchaeus, this is why I came, was to seek and save what was lost.

00;17;40;00 - 00;18;03;09
Willie
And so, if you're off on mission. So, for instance, if you're mission, if you live your life for this mission, I try to go to church as much as I can, and I try to be a good person. That's not the right mission. Or at least it's not in the Bible. And what happens is, see, that's see, now you're going to start chasing after something where you're which is not even in the Bible.

00;18;03;12 - 00;18;27;23
Willie
One of the terms doesn't even make sense because you don't really go to church. We are the church. And so the church is happening, not the church is happening right now. Between us, and so this idea of going somewhere, then leaving that place and if you're, if you don't watch it, kind of like you were talking about when you, when you get away from those biblical principles, you'll feel like when I'm in that building, that's where it's holy.

00;18;27;25 - 00;18;37;14
Willie
But when I get my car, that's where we dial that down. And now I turn into where the problem is I have with that that only lasts an hour. And the rest of.

00;18;37;14 - 00;18;40;13
Jessie
Here, and you probably won't even pay attention the whole hour.

00;18;40;15 - 00;18;55;23
Willie
Yeah. And it's not even a participating sport, you know, it's like for most of us, we just sit there and listen. It'd be like if I said I was, a golfer, but I never play it. I just watched it on TV. You know? I don't think that would make me.

00;18;55;29 - 00;18;58;07
Jessie
I don't some people who quarterback that way.

00;18;58;10 - 00;19;21;16
Willie
Yeah. That's true. So anyway, I mean, that's some of the kind of questions I'm trying to answer in trying to, break down for people, really just to get the conversation started with them. So that they can start a conversation with someone else. And what is that? What is it that we need to know? Because I feel like a lot of people would be like, I need, I would love for this.

00;19;21;16 - 00;19;41;27
Willie
My uncle or my boyfriend or my whoever to hear the gospel. And so maybe I can get the the pastor to talk to him. And so if you go through that theory, so if you have a group of a thousand people and all thousand have to, one person has to be the one to talk. There's no way that's going to have any sort of dynamic growth.

00;19;41;27 - 00;20;05;03
Willie
So in the, in the business where like if I were marketing, let's say in Denver and I wanted to let's say I had a building full of 2000 people, what I would I rather have the one person on the stage talking about my product, or would I have 2000 going out into their communities where the work schools and talking about my product as a business got to, to to the 2000 every day.

00;20;05;05 - 00;20;29;26
Willie
And so I think it's the same way with the, with the gospel and sharing it. And my approach is very simple. I've got generally about seven passages that I, usually stick to, and sometimes they, you know, it's all different. It's like, in, in the book it's not, you know, it's it's not like, here's what you should do and here's what you should say, and here's the next point.

00;20;29;29 - 00;20;48;13
Willie
I think sharing the gospel is more art and science. So I can tell two people the same thing. One person may go, I mean, and the next person may know, so the idea why did Paul said, pray for me that the mystery of the gospel can come out of my mouth more clearly? Certainly ponder the gospel as much as anyone.

00;20;48;15 - 00;21;12;09
Willie
Because I think he knew some people. He just wasn't resonating to. And so it's not that you ever change the message. The message doesn't change. But the methods, for sure can change. And, and so as we have these conversations, someone may come to me and say, hey, Willie, I want to get baptized. Well, you're starting way past, you know, like, we need to talk about Jesus.

00;21;12;09 - 00;21;28;12
Willie
We need to talk about the gospel. We need to talk about your life. You know, someone might come to me and say, hey, Willie, I got a DWI on Friday night. My wife left me on Saturday. I need some help. Well, that's a, you know, that person's probably ready to repent and change some things in their life, and,

00;21;28;15 - 00;21;54;26
Willie
Yeah. And what about the person who says nothing, who you're trying to break it into? And life is going in their mind? Great. They have everything they need. And, how do you get the gospel to that person? Church. The idea of church could be for one person. They can be awesome. Hey, there's a group of believers, and you can hang out and you can have fellowship and community, and and the person goes, that's exactly what I'm need.

00;21;54;26 - 00;22;12;27
Willie
You know, I'm so lonely. But you can tell that same thing to another person. And they go, I will never be around people. I hate those groups. I was hurt by that group. I was damaged by that group. Someone hurt me. Someone said something. So you know what I'm saying? The same exact thing. One person that can be positive and the next day can be negative.

00;22;12;27 - 00;22;29;29
Willie
So the whole idea is, I'm not trying to tell somebody, here's what you do. It can be like, if I were if I were going to, if I were going to teach you how to make, perhaps a dish, maybe, let's say baking, because I hate baking. So it's like, here's how you do it. And you got to follow the instructions.

00;22;29;29 - 00;22;50;25
Willie
And if you do all this and stick in the oven and you should come out to this, this is more of a book where I'm going to teach you how to cook, just in general. This is how to cook, this how to think. This is the pans and pots you may want to have on hand. You know, and I would think that kind of be like scripture, you know, like these are certain things that are great.

00;22;50;25 - 00;23;09;11
Willie
And then the whole idea of it and then taking your time and being patient and, you know, if you're like my wife, she she may decide to cook, but it's really when she's starving and that's when she decides, what should I cook? And I tell her, you're way too late, like you're at that point, just order a pizza.

00;23;09;11 - 00;23;30;25
Willie
You know? Yeah, you gotta go to the store. You got to, you know? And so I start, like, a meal I'll cook tomorrow. I've already thought about today. So there's a preparation where I'm like okay I've got this, I need to go pick up this, I need to marinate this, I need to get this ready and then to have all this together.

00;23;30;25 - 00;23;47;15
Willie
And so and I find that sharing the gospel is like that as well. And so we're, we're always ready. And we know you know we know I mean you mentioned the quarterback like like a good quarterback. Like if you look at your the guys who come out who they they're new to it. They're looking at their wrist where they have other plays.

00;23;47;15 - 00;24;02;24
Willie
Right where they're just staring at that and they're going, okay, here's what they're not looking at. Usually the defense and how that they're trying to figure that out into our fella. I feel like that sometimes with people who are just starting to share their faith, their little maybe wonky on the scriptures or what to share with people.

00;24;02;24 - 00;24;13;05
Willie
And so, and at that point, it's probably just best to share from your heart and say, here's what God did for me. Kind of like the blind man, you know, I know right now I can see, I don't know Jesus, that guy or.

00;24;13;06 - 00;24;14;06
Jessie
The woman at the well.

00;24;14;08 - 00;24;15;22
Willie
Yeah, that's all I know.

00;24;15;24 - 00;24;17;11
Jessie
There's a guy I know. He's really cool.

00;24;17;11 - 00;24;37;18
Willie
Yeah, the one with the well is interesting. And I write about her for sure. But the good quarterbacks, the one with experience, they don't have to look at the wrist. They know that they've already studied that. They know that they've seen through experience. So when they come out they're looking across their skin and going, that guy's in the wrong place.

00;24;37;18 - 00;24;55;19
Willie
And that's where I'm going to. And they change the play and they go this and this, and then boom! And then they, not that it always works. But at least you can see where you get the veteran people and you're like, that's why they're paid a ton of money to make all those decisions and be there.

00;24;55;19 - 00;25;10;02
Willie
And it's the same way when you're talking to someone. And I think it starts ultimately by caring about someone. You mentioned the woman at the well, like, I think Jesus told her a lot before he ever said a word. He I mean, when he speaks to her, you know, he shouldn't be talking to her. He was nice to her.

00;25;10;04 - 00;25;26;20
Willie
They weren't from the same area. He's a guy. She's a woman. And, and incidentally, that's a great that's part of that, storyteller in my book, which is, if you think about it, when he. So you think about I don't know how to get it. This is another reason people don't share their faith. I don't know how to start.

00;25;26;20 - 00;25;46;04
Willie
Like, how do you start that conversation? So awkward. And, Jesus starts that one with, can I get a drink of water? Like that sort of thing? Yeah. And so if you're going to ask someone for a drink of water, you can you can share the gospel. And then they get into her story. Right. And, and she has no idea what he's talking about, which makes sense.

00;25;46;04 - 00;26;01;27
Willie
Right. And then when he so he presses in on her story about the husband. And, I think people have to, wonder why you would do that, you know, and she isn't part of the truth. Not the whole truth. But to me, it makes sense. She just met him like. That's right. I'm gonna tell you everything you know.

00;26;01;29 - 00;26;26;27
Willie
Right. And so then why does he go in and just gonna know your whole story? Because I think she knew. He knew, Jesse. That if she didn't deal, if she wasn't able to deal with that story, she was never going to understand the living water and what all could happen. And and so he presses her on it. Then she finds that freedom from that story when she goes back to the town.

00;26;26;27 - 00;26;50;23
Willie
What's so interesting is, is she goes, y'all have to go meet this guy. He told me everything I've ever done. Now that should have been a negative. Like if you started telling me everything I've ever. If you were like, Willie, I know when you're in ninth grade, you. I mean, stuff that's not on the internet. I would say, don't go talk to Jesse because she knows what you've done.

00;26;50;29 - 00;27;05;15
Willie
But that's the thing with Jesus. What should be a negative then becomes a positive, because I think she was freed from that and she was like, it's out there. Plus, yeah, I don't know if you've been over there, but those towns are small, you know, like in Israel. I mean, like.

00;27;05;17 - 00;27;09;12
Jessie
The middle of nowhere. Wyoming. I had town of 1500.

00;27;09;14 - 00;27;31;23
Willie
I know if if in your town of no town and you've been through about six husbands, I promise in that town everybody's going to know about that. So you know what I'm saying? So it's like it's almost like, we mean, everybody probably knew it probably wouldn't take that big of a, questionnaire to figure out her story. And then the whole town comes, now it says they believe based on her testimony, which is.

00;27;31;26 - 00;27;32;29
Jessie
Yeah. And that's crazy.

00;27;33;02 - 00;27;34;21
Willie
That's crazy that they were she.

00;27;34;21 - 00;27;38;21
Jessie
Was by herself in the middle of the day because she didn't want to be around nobody. And they were rejecting her.

00;27;38;25 - 00;27;54;15
Willie
Well, you know why? Because it's probably like your mom who went from which to saved and speaking in tongues. It's the same way they they're probably seeing her. It's like if you see something like, you know, you're like like, like any of my kids or my wife can come in, there's a look, I can tell, like, oh, something's wrong.

00;27;54;16 - 00;28;13;16
Willie
Like, this is not normal. And I think they saw something from her like, whoa, something has happened to her. And then they go for themselves and they all become followers of Jesus. So she was one of the first, so right there in the beginning of John, she was one of the first gospels to actually go take what should this encounter with Jesus take?

00;28;13;16 - 00;28;34;04
Willie
It would share with others in the whole town. The whole thing started with one question can I get a drink of water? And so that's where it starts. And there's so many, there's so many people that I've talked to. And it starts like in really bizarre ways, you know, like, this small, like it wasn't like some religious thing or, said, you know, if you were to die right now, would you go to heaven right now?

00;28;34;04 - 00;28;36;02
Willie
No, it didn't start like that, you know?

00;28;36;05 - 00;28;39;10
Jessie
Right. Because it's weird. That's funny. It shut you down.

00;28;39;11 - 00;28;42;03
Willie
Yeah, it can be.

00;28;42;05 - 00;28;44;05
Jessie
I mean, I mean, it don't feel opening.

00;28;44;07 - 00;29;02;13
Willie
I, I'm sure some people have come to the Lord that way. It's just that I think things change sometimes. They change over time. I don't know if y'all ever part of this. But I remember when I was young, we would go knock on people's doors and try to get a Bible study. Where we going to campaign, go into a city or town.

00;29;02;15 - 00;29;24;04
Willie
Usually town were both knock on their door and Bible studies would happen. People would come. The Lord. Good luck knocking on someone's door today. You know, I would never go knock on someone's door and start a conversation like that. And so that's where you see over time that will change and into different ways, of just getting conversation started.

00;29;24;04 - 00;29;29;03
Willie
But at the end of the day, it's still going to be a conversation that's got to start somewhere.

00;29;29;05 - 00;29;46;20
Jessie
Which leads me kind of to my next question in, you know, because because stories do change over time. And my mentor at once quizzed me like, can you, you know, if you're going to go to somebody and give them a gospel message, what are you going to say? And my answer was, well, I need to find out their story.

00;29;46;20 - 00;30;10;18
Jessie
I need to know what's good news to them. Like like he was quizzing me that I knew the Bible, but like, I was like, no, I don't know how to bring good news apart from knowing what kind of like like what part of the scripture is good news for them. And then and as I was reading your book, especially at the beginning, what one of the questions that I have is, how has your story changed into this book?

00;30;10;18 - 00;30;25;11
Jessie
Like you, you talk about some things that you've been through and some things. So, yeah, that that God has had you, go through in your journey. So maybe. So how is this book different than you would have written it ten years ago?

00;30;25;14 - 00;30;48;01
Willie
Most right question. Most people would have, I mean, most of it. I'm sorry. Most, most, most of it would be the same, as far as the gospel, because a lot of the stories are preached ten years ago. So there's a lot of stories that happen, some happened in the midst of even whenever you're not on, on doing your best.

00;30;48;01 - 00;31;15;01
Willie
And so part of the reason I was sharing that was, was one to, I think people in the they view religious people and they go, well, I guess you're saying that you figured it out, perhaps even at a young age. You live this great life, you know? Yeah, maybe you, you know, spat or something, you know, like on the highway.

00;31;15;01 - 00;31;17;00
Willie
Maybe those are some of the things I'm trying to think.

00;31;17;01 - 00;31;18;08
Jessie
I ran a stop sign.

00;31;18;10 - 00;31;39;19
Willie
Obscure. Yeah, like, you know, but you receive. So I think a lot of people think like that. So one was, I was like, now, let's for hecklers, you know, in struggle with all kind of things. I think that's part of was to being real. And then part of that actually was to mimic, kind of like what Jesus said when you taught someone about their story was to mimic.

00;31;39;19 - 00;32;01;15
Willie
That's what I do when I talk to people. The story a lot of times will sound like the stories that I'm telling, which is again, John chapter four, when Jesus is pushing the woman on her story. I'm willing to share that because when I'm having a conversation, people, oftentimes that's what I'm looking for as well. I'm looking for their story.

00;32;01;18 - 00;32;38;08
Willie
And so and let's see if your story, matches up with, what it would look like to be a disciple, of Christ. And let's sit and, and let's see if we can find that biblically. But also let's just see if we can find that practically, you know, so, that's why I go to Galatians chapter five and that's, that's usually the if you ask me where I start with people, I usually don't start with the gospel, because oftentimes they don't they either don't know it or it's been so misrepresented.

00;32;38;10 - 00;32;57;17
Willie
They have a they have a very misconception of what it even is or even Jesus. Like, you know, I mean, good grief. You know, I mean, I see it too. And I'm like, oh, you know, I see people this or that say they follow Jesus. And I'm like, really? Or they're associated with asking for money or they associate it with being a hypocrite or whatever that is.

00;32;57;17 - 00;33;20;10
Willie
So I may not start there. Start there. I'm going to oh, he's going to get there but a minute start there. So I feel like Galatians five is this crazy great. It's the clearest line justice that I can find in the in the New Testament, where he says he list out what they call, the acts of the sinful nature or, kind of a lifestyle.

00;33;20;10 - 00;33;46;28
Willie
And he gives a list. It's actually a list of things, you know, selfishness and fits of rage and, sexual immorality and then a few that you have to may look up that, you know, dissensions and factions, you know, so it's all this list, and then he says, those who live like this. So I kind of kill that word, live those who live like this, not those who have ever done any of these things.

00;33;47;00 - 00;34;05;29
Willie
That's a difference. But those who live. If you live like this, if this looks like your life, and here's the heart statement, you will not be in the kingdom of heaven. You're out, you know. But you can't be that and be this. And then he says, then he gives the other side, which what he calls the fruits of the spirit.

00;34;06;01 - 00;34;23;13
Willie
Now I understand the person I'm talking to may not have a clue what the spirit is at this point, and I would expect that they wouldn't. But he says the fruit of it. So oftentimes I draw a fruit tree and I say, if it's a lemon tree, what's it going to produce? You know, again, very simple way.

00;34;23;13 - 00;34;52;21
Willie
It's going to throw off lemons. Right. And so, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control. He says those who belong to Christ Jesus. Now think about this is an initial thought, initial verse of the Bible. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified or put to death the old sinful nature. So the clearest way I know is does your life look like this, this list, or does it look like this list?

00;34;52;24 - 00;35;13;00
Willie
Yeah. And so now that's where we now that's where I can usually see the person thinking which one. And I and I always give people this out. If you're not real sure let's just ask the people you hang out with. You know. Right. Let's ask your spouse. Let's ask your boyfriend, your girlfriend, your coworkers. So if I were to see this list or this list, do you have love?

00;35;13;01 - 00;35;37;06
Willie
Do you have joy? Are you at peace? And? And that's usually where people will have to think about it and then think about like this. Maybe the first time ever that person has ever taken a scripture of the Bible and actually applied it to their life, right? They've heard stuff, but they've never actually applied it to themselves. And now I have this great, like black or white in or out.

00;35;37;08 - 00;35;55;14
Willie
And remember, I'm not saying that I don't sit down and go like, you know what I think? I think you're going to hell. Because as I heard you say this, I don't most time, I don't even know them. Like, I don't know you that well, you know. And so for me to ever even there's no judgment because I don't really even know you.

00;35;55;14 - 00;36;07;26
Willie
And, you know where? Because I know there's just, you know, there's probably not a lot of people who really know and even know in your heart what you feel about that. So that's where we started to get them thinking what the story would look like.

00;36;07;26 - 00;36;25;17
Jessie
And then you start there because because it also sets then the goal. Right. And then the nerdy part of what I do, I'm trying to recast the goal of discipleship not to be knowledge, but fruits of the spirit. And and it's amazing how many Christians don't even, like, understand the fruits of the spirit is what we're supposed to look like.

00;36;25;17 - 00;36;49;01
Jessie
So it was one of the things that was refreshing to me about your book is that not only is it the starting point, but it also it is actually the litmus test. It is what we're accountable to, not knowledge. But just does our life look like that? So to me, it was just very holistic that you that you start there because like I said, I'm trying I'm trying to disciple people to get their.

00;36;49;03 - 00;37;18;23
Willie
Well, that's where it starts. And then we talk about their story, of and I'll jot that story, I'll jot little pieces down because what I thought were the people I run into a lot is. But it would not be the case for a while, for sure. Have some sort of religious story. There's some story I was at summer camp when I was a, you know, hey, at least around here and around here in these parts, that's everybody is kind of somewhat religious, and they've got some kind of story.

00;37;19;00 - 00;37;25;04
Willie
The problem is their lives and actions don't match up to what happened at eight.

00;37;25;06 - 00;37;25;26
Jessie

00;37;25;29 - 00;37;48;25
Willie
So remember, remember I read, Romans six. Therefore, where's the new life? So in the new life, supposedly supposedly started 8 or 12 or whatever that age or 30. I'm not. I'm just I'm not picking on children. I'm saying a lot of times oftentimes is that so? So we're hanging so someone is hanging on to that going like okay, good.

00;37;48;25 - 00;38;11;16
Willie
I'm I got that done. Oftentimes not even remembering it, you know like but that but that's a done I've checked that box. And so I'll just say so that's where the new life started. Well how was the teenage years? How was the college years? How was the marriage then? How, you know, and then we start getting a download of what that is.

00;38;11;16 - 00;38;39;23
Willie
Well, it's not been good. So for a lot of people life has went far worse. Post conversion or post Jesus, change in their life than better. In fact, for for a lot of people, especially kids, everything pre eight years old was pretty good, you know. So there wasn't you know, affairs and lying and all that, you know, drunkenness and you know a lot of that didn't happen there.

00;38;39;23 - 00;39;06;06
Willie
And so it's like so now we've got to look at our lives and say, what really are we, are we this are we that, no matter what happened? And so, but I think you did a good job, too. And I, like you did make me think about that, about the knowledge, because I think as a as a guy who grew up in a real knowledge based place, that I thought you made a great point of that in your book about.

00;39;06;08 - 00;39;32;00
Willie
It's not just what you know, you know, which I always say this about, my book and even the gospel. Actually, I just taught this somewhere, I think, this past week in where I said it, I think Christianity is so much like it's for a it's like people get so selfish with when I go to church so that I can try to get me through my week, and I like to study my Bible, and I like to sit and drink my coffee and read the word, and then I like to have my prayers.

00;39;32;03 - 00;39;46;17
Willie
But I'm like, if you're not using that for, you know, now I'm thinking of sharing the gospel. Like, to me, it's being used to go share with others. It's not just a consumption, you know, every day of what, because that only helps me, you know, it's not healthy.

00;39;46;18 - 00;39;58;03
Jessie
And only so much because you can be, like, close to God while you're having your cup of coffee, reading your Bible, and then you get in that car or your spouse comes in and you're Christ like this, you know, can vaporize.

00;39;58;06 - 00;40;11;19
Willie
Yeah, oh for sure. And and will and can. And so yeah, I like that I like the idea that you that you're talking about that you know. And I thought that was good. I thought that was a great way to look at it so.

00;40;11;21 - 00;40;26;16
Jessie
Well and I and like I said, I love that your book is holistic. And so, if you're a listener out there, I just want to encourage you, so say, how do you pronounce that one more time? Because in my head, you know, I pronounce it differently, but it's like a speller.

00;40;26;19 - 00;40;28;08
Willie
Got speller.

00;40;28;10 - 00;40;30;14
Jessie
Like you're spelling your spelling.

00;40;30;14 - 00;40;42;29
Willie
So I did this for people like you who may struggle with that. All the chapter titles rhyme with that. So gospel, the first chapter is called Swamp Dweller Storyteller. So I'll have a rhyme so that you could try.

00;40;43;00 - 00;40;45;01
Jessie
Grace repeller, one of my favorite.

00;40;45;01 - 00;40;56;08
Willie
Packs. There you go. Oh, wow. There you go. Yeah, for for sure. Oh, yeah. You understand that one? I was kind of like, yeah, I'm kind of stretching this one on that, but. So there you go. You it you understand that.

00;40;56;11 - 00;41;06;18
Jessie
No. It was it was a beautiful it was a beautiful illustration of Jesus rappelling in our life and pulling us out of it and having done that and trained people to do that, I thought it was I thought it was really well.

00;41;06;18 - 00;41;25;04
Willie
You know, it's like coming down. Yeah, it's that idea of coming down, that's actually was on the movie The Blond. That was a that's about my parents. But at the end, the preacher, when he was talking of failed, he says, you know, most religions is where you're trying to go, place. And in this one, he comes down.

00;41;25;07 - 00;41;27;17
Willie
Yeah. So I thought that was a great way to think about it.

00;41;27;20 - 00;41;32;21
Jessie
Yeah. So good. Where can people buy your book? Where, where, where should they go to get it?

00;41;32;23 - 00;41;41;22
Willie
Anywhere. I would suggest Amazon. But you can buy you can order it wherever they sell books. So on your book, I do have one question, so.

00;41;41;22 - 00;41;42;16
Jessie
Oh yeah.

00;41;42;17 - 00;41;58;23
Willie
Yeah, I had one do it. So I was and I wasn't sure I agree with you on this. So you say it's impossible, to have disciple ship, without being with someone? Do you remember saying that or.

00;41;58;27 - 00;42;05;07
Jessie
Yeah. No, it's it's one of my my my, contentions or my sticking points so far.

00;42;05;09 - 00;42;32;13
Willie
Because I kind of thought. I don't mean I think there can be. I think from the just the nature of the New Testament itself. Right. Like, I felt like I'm in disciple, but, Paul and Peter and Jesus, you know, by the writings that I have. And so and I do think there, I think you can listen to things and be discipled now, maybe, maybe not what you would call totalitarian discipleship, you know, where it's complete that way.

00;42;32;13 - 00;42;41;04
Willie
But I don't know, I just got when I heard that I listened to the Gary while I was on there and it's not again, I was like, I don't know, I, I thought that I was like, I don't know if I agree with that or not.

00;42;41;07 - 00;42;51;08
Jessie
That's great, I love it. I love to disagree with people in, in, you know, and guidance and grace. Like, I love that, because it means we're all, like, thinking and wrestling through it.

00;42;51;10 - 00;43;03;07
Willie
I mean, did you think through that that like or how would you see learning? Yeah. Learning from people's lives that aren't necessarily maybe even you may not even know them, you know.

00;43;03;09 - 00;43;29;11
Jessie
Right. Yeah. So for me, discipleship is different than teaching. So I can be taught by somebody, in a passive way. I can be taught by the scriptures. I can be inspired by the scriptures. But to me, discipleship is, because I think about the brain processes of transformation. They happen the most when we're face to face, when we're mirroring, when we can ask the follow up question.

00;43;29;13 - 00;43;50;08
Jessie
And I think Paul's like, say, this is my personal opinion. Totally disagree with me. Paul's excited like I he's I think he's in heaven being excited that everybody's reading this stuff. Like wouldn't you be like, he's excited. Everybody's reading this stuff, but he can't ask you the follow up question. He can't ask you how, how how are you understanding this right now?

00;43;50;09 - 00;44;03;03
Willie
Right. But you made a jump there. You went from just the scriptures. But I still think you learn from the people themselves would not be able with them, not just the scriptures, not just someone to not just someone.

00;44;03;06 - 00;44;17;06
Jessie
That requires that interaction. It requires somebody seeing your life, asking you how you're, you know, accountable to living it out. Someone you can ask questions too. So for me, discipleship and teaching are different.

00;44;17;06 - 00;44;22;18
Willie
What about the letters he was writing to the churches? Wasn't that a form of disciple that he was?

00;44;22;20 - 00;44;32;27
Jessie
But if it was, work it out so well, why was he like having to yell at the Corinthians so much like, oh, I'm sending Timothy to you. He's going to have to fix all of the stuff that you're misunderstanding.

00;44;32;29 - 00;44;35;17
Willie
But you wouldn't call that a form of discipleship.

00;44;35;19 - 00;44;37;21
Jessie
No, I would think that the people who were present.

00;44;37;21 - 00;44;39;29
Willie
Oh, what is that? If it's not just instruction.

00;44;40;02 - 00;44;41;29
Jessie
But action, maybe instruction.

00;44;41;29 - 00;44;49;17
Willie
Oh, that's got to be more than instruction. Like he knew them personally. Yeah, I'm saying like he knew like, yeah, I don't know.

00;44;49;17 - 00;44;53;04
Jessie
But okay. But here's the thing. Like maybe you like to compare season three.

00;44;53;04 - 00;44;55;28
Willie
Your life will come out. They want to write your book.

00;44;56;01 - 00;45;25;21
Jessie
So so think about your marriage. Right. You can you can write query letters. You can text her, but like that's a different level of change and in connection than when you're in the same room and what you have with her, you only have because you've been in the same room. So, you know, if Paul spent like three years with somebody, you know, maybe he can he can write them a letter like you can, you know, give right choreo letter texter.

00;45;25;23 - 00;45;35;21
Jessie
But if you've never been in the same room with her, how much depth of relationship do you guys actually have?

00;45;35;23 - 00;46;00;12
Willie
Well, I think we could have a lot of depth because I think you're saying, well, that of the truest form is when we're in the same room, when actually, I could argue at times in our life and marriage, when we were there was something even closer when we weren't in the same room. And so I could argue that what if what if I were in the military and I was gone or, you know, I was gone for years or something, and we still had this connection.

00;46;00;14 - 00;46;16;16
Willie
It wouldn't would it replace that? No. But I still think all of those pieces and parts, for instance, out what if whatever they are, I'm not going to text you or write you. I'm not that which I know men like this and perhaps women, but I know a lot of men like this. Like, you know, I'll let you know if I love you.

00;46;16;16 - 00;46;34;20
Willie
I'll let you know if it changes. And so it's only when they're together. But all that really plays into the relationship. Meaning, if I didn't text, if I didn't answer the phone, if I didn't, you know, and say, no, I just save it for when we're together, when we have these really, moments like that. So,

00;46;34;22 - 00;46;43;29
Jessie
Okay, so you're making my point for me. Let me tell you how you're making my point for me is that you have a relationship with Corey. Do you have a relationship with Paul.

00;46;43;29 - 00;46;50;05
Willie
Yeah I mean well I mean yeah. And we as brothers in Christ I would say we do.

00;46;50;05 - 00;46;54;22
Jessie
Yeah I mean he knows you, he knows you. He.

00;46;54;24 - 00;46;59;22
Willie
Well I don't, I can't speak to the after I like I'm not sure if they know or not but.

00;46;59;24 - 00;47;04;03
Jessie
That's true. Well are you getting all cosmic now? You're getting well like existential change.

00;47;04;03 - 00;47;07;13
Willie
The name change from Paul. Change that to Jesus.

00;47;07;16 - 00;47;09;17
Jessie
Well, of course Jesus. Well, well, wait, don't.

00;47;09;22 - 00;47;11;14
Willie
I thought we couldn't. We have to. We have to.

00;47;11;14 - 00;47;20;02
Jessie
And the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. We're talking about humans, the safely humans. The Holy Spirit's always leading this into truth. So for me, relationship is required.

00;47;20;06 - 00;47;28;15
Willie
I know you can change because you just referred to the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit. So now you can change because.

00;47;28;18 - 00;47;42;29
Willie
Okay, back on then I will study more because I was but I thought your your book is grab me and finished. Yeah, but, I think that's great. And, which is why we even. Or at least what I said, I went to the your podcast. I just wanted to talk to you more about that. And so,

00;47;43;01 - 00;47;58;22
Willie
Yeah, your stories are great and how you tied in, and, I wasn't witness track person, but, Corey was. And so she grew up doing that every year. And so I've heard all her stories about that. So, so fascinating how you brought that together. But amazing. Keep up the good work.

00;47;58;24 - 00;48;18;19
Jessie
Well, and I'm excited. You know, we have a lot in common. We like, but ordinary people who are just living every day and helping the ordinary person see how they can be a gas guzzler. They can be a disciple maker. They're not disqualified. It's not for an elite crew. It's because of you and I can do it right.

00;48;18;21 - 00;48;20;26
Jessie
The anybody actually can.

00;48;20;29 - 00;48;24;10
Willie
So I know they can. So yeah. For sure.

00;48;24;12 - 00;48;32;13
Jessie
Well, so I think it's so good to have you on the podcast today. I really thank you so much. And yeah, let's come on your podcast and wrestle it out.

00;48;32;16 - 00;48;37;22
Willie
That would be fantastic. So awesome. Great talking to you in person.

00;48;37;24 - 00;48;58;08
Jessie
Thanks, man. All right. If you are interested in more podcasts, you can get those, on the Audio Discipleship podcast. We also have, books on Amazon and you can find out more resources at who all Agco that's follow Geico. Thanks for listening. Go and Grace.