Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse
Cruikshank, and today we are

going to talk about one of my
personal favorite characters in

Scripture, Peter. Totally
identify with him. I jump first

and ask questions later. Find a
girl. We have Steve Manchester

and Jerry Lathon on today to
talk about their book that they

have just released into the
world, already getting awards

and doing super well. So Jerry,
Steve, welcome to the ordinary

discipleship podcast. And if you
guys would introduce yourselves

just briefly to our audience
that they might be able to get

to know who you

Jerry Lathan: are. I'm Jerry
Lathon, and along with Stephen

Manchester, we've just written
and released. You will be Peter.

The title is prophetic thing
that Jesus said he first met

Simon, and he said, You are
Simon. You will be Peter. Sort

of an odd introduction. It's
been a long time. Affinity of

mine with Simon Peter, like you
mentioned, the tendency to

sometimes shoot off before you
think about things and maybe get

a little ahead of yourself, and
just the general list of

everyday, common, ordinary flaws
that make up Simon Peter is what

makes him so fascinating. So
I've been working on the

research for this for over a
decade, and when I really sat

down to try to write it out, I
wanted to get somebody who was

really accomplished writer to
partner with me. I found

Stephen, and I tell you, it was
a godsend. It was a true

blessing. Stephen and I have
gone from strangers to we call

each other brother, and this
book has been a restorative and

healthy and fed both of our
faith walks, but also bonded us

and made made great friends. So
anyway, great to be with you.

Steven Jesse,

Steven Manchester: thanks so
much for having us. So

obviously, Steve Manchester, and
it's been a blessing. About

three years ago, my publisher
contacted me. I've been writing

for close to 30 years, so I put
out, you know, 25 books, and a

lot of that was practice, if I'm
being honest, but all roads lead

to you will be Peter, right. So
I was contacted by by Mr.

Lathan, and we started to talk
about it, and I knew right away

I could feel his passion. I love
the vision that he had for the

project. And I ended up flying
down Alabama. We spent a week

together, holed up in a cabin,
we did some storyboarding. So

for any of your audience that
that fight is, I mean, that's a

gift, right? To be able to spend
a full week erupted, right? No

disruptions. And really kind of
go through it, and we ended up

almost framing the first half of
the book, and from there back, I

bought back and forth. But I
have to tell you, I mean, you

know, I think even 510, years
ago, I may not have had the

skill set to, you know, to work
with Jerry on this, but I think

everything came together the way
that it should, right? And it

truly has been a blessing. And
on top of that, I mean, the gift

has been my friendship and my
brotherhood with with Jerry, and

I think it bleeds through, oh,

Jessie Cruickshank: that's so
good. Like to actually make

Kingdom friends along the way,
while we're doing the work

that's there's nothing that can
substitute that actually think

that's what transcends, right?
That's what makes it into

eternity and goes with us to the
other side of the veil. So

coming through in the text, like
the richness, the vulnerability

and emotional intimacy, if you
will, of your guys's connection

being tangible there. So, so
kind of my first question, just

to help everyone understand,
like, what inspired you to write

this? People have been talking
about Peter for a couple 1000

years, and so for you, what led
to this project, what inspired

you and said, Yeah, this, if
this is a culmination of a

life's passion, yeah, how do we
get here?

Jerry Lathan: Peter is my
disciple. He's the guy that I

relate to. He's the one that I
think we're all supposed to see

something of ourselves in there.
There's so much of him that it's

just relatable as a as a person,
you you want to believe, you

want to have faith, you want to
walk the walk, but it doesn't

always make sense. You sometimes
get ahead of yourselves. You

make mistakes. And I've always
really been drawn to him because

of that. And then, frankly, a
few years ago, I was trying to,

I was involved in the movie
industry for a bit, and I was

trying to put together a
project, and I wanted, I

thought, What a great story that
I've never seen told, really,

the the life of the guy who I
see as the founding father of

Christianity. He's the guy that
that Jesus left in charge,

really, literally, Jesus left
it. Left him in charge. He said,

You're it, I'm, you know, told
you guys what to do, and I'm

going to do, and I'm going to
give you some help. I'm going to

send you the spirit, but, but he
left them with a job to do, and

he put Peter in charge of being
the leader of the group. That's

pretty interesting life. And you
know, the great, all the great

biographies that anybody would
want to read are always about a

fascinating life, an impactful
life, someone who's done

something that made a difference
and that you can relate to or

you're least interested in. And
what greater legacy than to be

the founding father, the premier
leader of a movement that's

still here 2000 years later.
There's nothing more important,

nothing more impactful, nothing
more powerful or enduring in the

history. Be a mankind than the
Christian church, and this is

the story of the guys, all of
them, and the women and the

founding fathers, but it's
primarily about Simon Peter and

how this happened to him. And I
wanted to find this story. I

wanted to make a movie of it. I
thought about it, and I kept

looking. Finally, one of my
scriptwriter friends said,

apparently, there's a story you
want to tell that hasn't been

written because you can't find
it, so you probably have to just

write this book. And I said,
Okay, I will. And that's, that's

how we started. Oh

Jessie Cruickshank: my gosh. And
so, Steve, why did you say yes

to this project? Well, I mean,
it resonated with birthing

somebody's heart is, like, a big
deal, yeah.

Steven Manchester: Well, it's
funny because I was working on a

project, and I, you know, when
you get that gut feeling and I'm

like this, whatever I'm working
on is going to the back burner,

right? So his vision, his
passion. I'm a man of faith. At

the time, my mother was ill, and
she was really on her way home,

right, to be with Jesus, so that
played into it as well, right?

Everything with my mom was, keep
the faith, keep the faith. And

as a man of faith, it made
perfect sense for me to jump in.

And it's not an easy decision,
right? And we were talking

about, you know, I remember
telling a friend, this was

laughs, but I said, you know,
last thing I want to do is get

up to the gate and get added in
the back of the head, right?

Because we didn't get it right.
He started laughing. But I knew

right away that, you know, Jerry
and I promised each other we

were going to change a word in
the Gospel. Jesus said it or did

it. You know, that's what we're
gonna do. But the cool part for

me was being able to take a
reader, and Jerry and I placing

that reader to the scene. So
you're gonna walk with the

disciples 2000 years ago. You're
gonna eat what they that breeds

on the back of your neck. And
that's really what it was about.

So, you know, in authentic I'm
known for writing, um,

emotionally charged, reality
based fiction. So 85 90% of my

readership is female, right?
Male perspective, female

audience. I write to you, right?
This just really lined up in a

way where we didn't have to make
a whole lot up, but we had to

put it in a setting where,
again, people could feel it like

they were there. One of the

Jessie Cruickshank: things that
is fascinating to me, thinking

about the life of Peter,
thinking about what we've got

about Peter, is that we don't
hear a lot of the mistakes of

the other disciples, right? We
we hear a little bit about James

and John, but John loves to
tattle on Peter, right? So John

is going to list every mistake
that Peter made, right? They

might as well, like, have been
like the little like John being

the little brother, tattling and
and yet, like Peter, could have

impacted the scriptures that
come to us. Right? We don't have

a canonized, you know, Pope in
the spirit of Peter at the time

that these, that these
scriptures are written, right?

They're super soon he could have
done something there. And it

seems to me, the thing that I
always think about with Peter is

that we know his flaws because
he wanted us to we know his

flaws because he allowed that to
be in there. He tattles on

himself like he passes them
along and says, Hey, here's the

stupid thing that I did, and
here's the way Jesus responded.

And he is one of the first full
testimonies, I think, that we

get in the New Testament. And so
when it comes to the book that

you guys wrote, how did that
impact the way that you related

to or, or made Peter three
dimensional on a on a two

dimensional page there, Jesse,

Jerry Lathan: you nailed it the
that's the central point. That's

what Jesus is talking about. You
are Simon. You will be Peter.

Life is a journey becoming the
Christian you're supposed to be.

Isn't snap my finger. Jesus
didn't go poof. You're now

Peter. He said you will be. And
the point of all of those

shortcomings and flaws, and the
times he quibbles with Jesus,

and he argues with Jesus, even
reprimands Jesus, that's all in

there, because that's kind of
how we all are. If you really

think about it, we don't want we
don't want Jesus the way Jesus

wants us. We want Jesus the way
we want it. We all want now

that's that's the self in all of
us. And Peter is the central

figure. He's the prime example
of what we are to understand

about Christianity, because
that's how we are. You're

supposed to relate to him. And
Jesus knew that when he met him

and told him that. And so that's
exactly the point. It's not a a

side or whatever. I always find
it fascinating, too. Everything

you know about it is written by
somebody else. Two of the guys

that were there, Matthew, for
example, knew full well. Peter

didn't like you. He says so he
doesn't like you. But Matthew

tells the story with fidelity
and faith, and he gets it right,

and he tells the same story that
Mark tells, he tells the same

story that John and John,
interestingly, because John's

has written so many years after
the first three, John's kind of

coming in with some cleanup
facts. He's helping you

understand some things that
you've read the first three.

You've read Matthew and Mark and
Luke. And now John, in his later

years, his fullness of life,
thinks back on the. Impact of

all of those things, and that
beautiful moment on the beach

when Jesus asks him three times,
do you love me? I think it was

years later when John realized
the impact of that, the power of

that, the meaning of that, and
that telling is only in his

book, because he's the one who
who thought, wow, I understand.

You know, there's things you
hear in your life, and it's

decades before they sink into
your head, why your grandmother

or your father or something, the
importance of it at some point

becomes clear. And I think
that's what happened with John.

I think it's really cool how
John, in the fullness of time,

John, gets to outlive everybody
else by 20 or 30 years. So

John's seen the church grow, and
he's seen all of this. And I

think like, like all of us live,
the longer you live, the more

the wisdom you heard as a child
and as a young person comes full

in your head. You understand it
now. Why did my father, why did

my mother, why did my
grandparents? Why did people who

led me in my life tell me those
things? It comes clearer and

clearer as you get older John, I
think, realizes later, the

reason his is the only version
of the story of sweet redemption

the three times on the beach is
because John's the one who

realized the power and the
impact of that. I mean, John,

James was there and Andrew was
there. Maybe Matthew wasn't that

fullness. He realizes that was
Jesus. And remember, this

happens a few weeks after the
resurrection. The resurrections

happen, and they've seen Jesus,
they know he's alive, so what

are they doing? Fishing again.
They don't know what to do.

They're back at home. They're
back at work. They've gone back

to work. They've gone back to
their lives. They don't know

what else to do. So that's what
they're doing. And Jesus

appears, which is why Simon so
excited. He jumps off the boat

and it swims like Forrest Gump.
He can't wait to get to the

dock. He just dives in the water
like a maniac and swim because

he needs to see Jesus so bad,
and he needs to hear his words

so bad. And Jesus asked him
those three times, do you love

me? What a piercing thing to
say. And that's that was the

point. You know, Jesus knew he
needed to heal Simon and give

him his assignment, and say, Now
get back to Jerusalem, and I've

got things for you

Jessie Cruickshank: to do and
that it wasn't over, that

whatever he had, oh, whatever.
No, it's not over because wasn't

over,

Jerry Lathan: yeah, and you
really messed up, but it's not

over. You know, it's never over
till you give up.

Steven Manchester: I think
readers are going to feel that

in the story Jesse, right? I
mean, if you know, if there's a

time to cry, then we were crying
while we were writing it, right?

There's a time to laugh. We were
laughing. But again, I mean, you

know, we talk about him being
the most relatable disciple,

because, I mean, I think to a
lot of people, these biblical

stories are inaccessible.
They're real difficult to apply

to our own lives, right? So
again, when we take something

that's very familiar, the trick
for Jerry and I, in order to be

successful is to take the reader
and put them in the moment,

right? So you know what's coming
up, but we don't want you to

think about what's coming up. We
want you to worry about what's

happening right, or at least
enjoy what's happening right

now. So I think that that that
leads through in this, this,

this version, which I think is
very unique.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love, like
lectodovina of sitting in

Scripture. I love even like
sometimes, when I take people

through passages of Scripture,
especially in the gospels, I do

an embodiment exercise so they
can feel their body right, and

then read the passage, and then,
like that does something in the

brain. So, as a brain scientist,
I think God made us in

fascinating ways. So that allows
us to be in the moment. And

people can actually feel right
what the scene is. They can they

can feel the chair. They can
feel the crowd like it's just an

amazing way that God created our
brains to work. So writing a

book about a person that we may
or may not relate to, but at

least are familiar with in a way
that's new and tangible. What

are you hoping that the reader
walks away from the experience

because you're making it
experiential? So what do you

hope the reader walks away from
the experience of of of the

book, of this passion project
for you like what do you how do

you want them to be different
because they've encountered the

story you guys have written. I

Jerry Lathan: want them to see
themselves in the character of

Simon, Peter. I want them to see
themselves feeling Jesus's

piercing look, Jesus's
thoughtful understanding words.

I want them to hear Jesus speak
to Peter. I want them to

understand the rebuke when he
calls him Simon. Simon. Why did

you doubt Peter can walk on
water? And then Jesus looks at

him and he sinks. He says,
Simon, why did you doubt I want

them to hear that voice. I want
them to see that and know that

the reason Peter is the central
figure is because you're

supposed to recognize yourself
in him. For

Steven Manchester: me, it's the
greatest love story ever told,

ever right? And what I
absolutely love about this is,

you know, there's nothing that's
unintentional, like, there's

nothing that unintentional from
Jesus, right, from whatever

he's. Said whatever he did, but
it was really all about love,

right? And looking at the
ultimate sacrifices at the

cross, right? And to be able to
understand that like I used to

be a man of faith, so I
believed, and now I know, I know

that it's right, and it's,
again, the most beautiful story.

So for us, if I'm being honest,
I mean, we're both storytellers,

right? If we could have, we
would have taken these 90,000

words and delivered them on our
front porch, right, sitting in a

couple rocking chairs. So that
was the whole deal. Like, you

know, listen, we're not here to
challenge anybody's belief

system or even recruit to a
certain degree, right? But we

told the story, which, again, is
very familiar from a very, very

different angle. So the point of
view is different. So, you know,

if somebody cracks open the
cover, the hope is that, you

know, we believe that great
writers or good writers will

make somebody think, right, but
a great writer will make

somebody feel. And Jerry and I
thought, with this entire book,

Jessie Cruickshank: one of the
things that I was wondering is

that, in order to create an
embodiment experience through

storytelling, and, you know, I,
I've always seen the hero's

journey as the map of
discipleship, but it's what my

wrote my book about, like, like
God created it in every culture

and every human heart for a
reason. And and Peter's is easy.

Peters is an easy Hero's Journey
to extrapolate, to see, you

know, how he, how he walks
through each of those stages

again, to bring it three
dimensional. What liberties did

you guys take in that process?
Like, like, you know, if a Bible

scholar or a church historian is
going to read this, they might

go, Oh, what about that? You
know, but, but sometimes, like

we have to, in order to write
hit fiction, we have to do that

right. We have to fill in some
spaces. So I know that you guys

brought some, some other
research into the project to

help, to help fill that in. So
what? Yeah, what could we what

could we expect that might be
new or interesting or

intriguing? Yeah,

Jerry Lathan: and your question
about the accuracy, we put it in

front of as many theologians,
New Testament scholars as I

could find. I mean, we sent it
to seminarians and teachers and

just pastors and people who
study and read the Bible, and we

encourage them to let us know in
our beta testing what they saw

or found, and I don't know how
many times, but there were

dozens of times when they they
would say, in the in the

sessions, they say, you know, I
didn't think, but I went and

checked, and you're right. So
really, we're really proud of

the timeline, and I think that
if someone really wants to

notice something about this
that's novel and different. It

is the timeline. The timeline of
the Gospels is never synced up.

They're not chronologically
synced at all. And so, you know,

the woman at the well, for
example, appears only in the

book of John, the scene on the
beach, the second miracle catch

a fish. And you know, do you
love me three times? That only

happens in the book of John.
There's a number of things. So

each one is a little bit unique,
but they're never synced up. You

don't know when they have so the
woman on the well, happens, by

the way, in the first year on
the way back from Jerusalem,

after Jesus has the first
encounter with the money

changers, and he decides to go
back through Syria, I mean,

through Samaria over Simon's
strong objections. And those are

the kinds of things that that
really weave the pick the story

together and make it, I think,
come alive, because the

timelines right? The only other
thing is we took what I call

inferred dialog. It had to have
been something that was

discussed when the very first
time they meet, there's Andrew

and who's Simon's brother and
his best friend, John, And Jesus

says this startling thing to
him, You are Simon, you will be

Peter. You will be the rock. You
will be secede in the Aramaic no

one's ever met you and said You
are Jesse. You will be somebody

else if they did, you remember,
especially if it was Jesus. So,

so on the way to the wedding in
Cana, which is where they strike

out next they, you know, Jesus
says, I'm going to go this to

Nazareth. I'm going to swing by
my home and go to the wedding.

And you want to go? And they all
say, Yeah, sure. Well, along the

way, of course, his best friend,
kind of punched him in arm.

Said, Hey, Mr. Rock, what's
this? And Andrew chimed in. So

we have some kind of, you know,
best friend Brother, give and

take. Like, well, what does that
mean? And then, and Peter's

going, Simon said, I don't, what
is, what is he calling me that

for? And, you know, finally,
James John, who's kind of always

the level, he just says, I don't
know. I guess we'll have to

watch along with Jesus and find
out what he means, because he

doesn't tell him for two more
years. He calls him that all the

time, but he doesn't tell him
until he takes him on a very

special trip to Caesarea
Philippi, the only time they

ever went there, which is a five
day walk there and five days

back. Just for this one thing
Jesus says, Who do men say that?

I. Yeah, and, you know, Simon
answers it correctly. And, you

know, the rest. But so dialog
accuracy, I think we got it. I

mean, we really did. We tried
very, very hard not to create

anything it that conversation.
We don't have the exact words,

but, you know, it had to have
happened, right?

Jessie Cruickshank: Because
they're still humans. There's

still people living the life
well. And then if anybody is

knows a fisherman or anybody
like that, right? You can get a

bit of an idea. These are salty
people.

Unknown: We're the rugged guy,
yeah, oh

Jessie Cruickshank: man. Well,
really appreciate you guys

taking this, this project, on.
And you know, my heart is always

that the ordinary person sees
themselves as worthy of the call

to follow Jesus and make
disciples of other people,

right? That we don't have to be
exclusive OR elite or anything.

We just have to be who God says
we are. And so I love that

you've taken you know someone
that we know, and help them, and

allow the reader to see who God
made Peter to be from the very

beginning. He just needed to, he
just needed to come in alignment

with that and and go on the
journey towards it. So, yeah,

just really, really grateful for
for this book out in the world.

And, and I hope that, yeah, I
hope that people discover it. I

hope that people like you said,
Get inspired and see themselves

in it, because maybe then they
would see themselves in the

future of having an impact in
the kingdom and being part of

this great thing we call the
kingdom of God. So appreciate

it.

Jerry Lathan: Well, thank you,
Jesse. You will be peter.com is

where people can go and visit
the homepage. You can order it.

You will be Peter. Is available
in bookstores. It's available on

Amazon. You know, Books a
Million, and Barnes and Noble

and Goodreads everywhere you can
everywhere people buy books. So

just take a look. You will be
Peter. Is the title. You will be

peter.com. Is the landing page.
And thank you for your time.

Thank you for having us. Thanks

Jessie Cruickshank: for being
here with us. And if you tune in

the podcast, just remember you
can also always go and learn

more about how to be a disciple
maker, just as you are with all

your strengths and weaknesses,
trusting the Holy Spirit, you

can learn more@huology.co that's
W, H, O, o, l, o, G, y.co.

Thanks for joining us. You.