Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse
Cruikshank, and I am here with

my dear, dear friend, Christine
Kane, Chris, it's so good to

have you here. I just love you
so much, and you've been such a

huge influence, and you helped
me not feel crazy in the way

that I was made by God. So to
know that there's someone else

out there like me. No, we're not
totally the same, but you're

such a blessing. So thank you
for for being with me today in

in our conversation.

Christine Caine: It's my
pleasure. You know. I love you

dearly, man. We are more than
friends. We're like sisters,

like literally. And I know I
talked to you and I go, Oh my

gosh, there's another person in
the world. There's not many of

us, but it's, it's, I don't know
if that's a good thing or a bad

thing, but it's awesome to have
someone to connect with on that

list.

Jessie Cruickshank: You know,
we, the world, can only handle

so many like us, so maybe it's
God's grace to the rest of

humankind. I think,

Christine Caine: I think Bob and
Nick are very special human

beings. That's all I can say.
They

Jessie Cruickshank: they are
soul brothers. They are, they

are, oh man. Well, what I want
to talk to you today about is

something that we both we've
both seen and we both care

about, and that is people who
know how to operate in their

spiritual authority, and in
order to do that, they actually

need to know, like you need to
be trained in that. I don't

think it's just that much of an
instinct, right? So what I've

seen is I've seen people, and
honestly, more women now than

than in the past, who get into a
position, or they have a role in

an organization, and they don't
understand spiritual authority.

They think it's just a job
description, or they think it's

just a title, and they start to
look at the situation and go,

Wait a minute, I should have a
different role. I should have a

different title, I should have a
different job description. And

there seems to be this
disconnect between your

assignment and what God is
asking you to do, and and then

how that rolls out in spiritual
authority. So I've seen a few of

these examples where things
haven't gone so super well

because people didn't understand
spiritual authority. But you

work with a lot of different
people, you have the opportunity

to see a lot of different
people, men and women, walk this

out. What have what have you
seen? Do you see the dearth of

training and education in this
that I do, or, yeah, what do you

see, for sure? I think,

Christine Caine: I mean, we
probably need to go back one

step, and you probably could
speak to this really well. So I

grew up. I mean, I'm 58 so
there's an age thing here. I

grew and I grew up Greek
Orthodox, so and a daughter of

Greek immigrants, so authority
in general. So without even

spiritual authority, let's just
talk about authority. I grew up

in a different era where there
was, by and large, a respect for

authority. There was a respect
for people in authority. Now

it's a very different world.
Some of the negativity that

we're living in is because
people have abused their

authority. There's been a lot of
toxicity. And so I think first

we have to go, okay, and people
have used the guise of spiritual

authority to manipulate people,
to control people. Now you and I

would probably both argue, Well,
they didn't really have

spiritual authority that was
mismanaging worldly authority or

power or position or title. But
it all gets convoluted, and so

I'm thinking some people
listening to your podcast might

already be sort of twitching,
just that you actually you just

jumped right in, like spiritual
authority. It has triggered

everything in we probably need
to name it right up front.

Because for me, this wouldn't
have triggered me in 1990 when I

first started in ministry,
because, you know, back then,

I'm sure there was a whole lot
going on, but at least in our

ignorance, there was no
Internet, there was no social

media. It was a different world,
and by and large, you kind of

trust it. And I grew up in a
when I then got saved and became

a really, fully devoted follower
of Jesus. I came into a

Pentecostal church, so we were
taught, and dare I say, even

back then, a really healthy
spiritual authority. So it was,

like, really healthy about, you
know, anointing and authority,

and how God actually gives you
that authority. And so, you

know, people weren't necessarily
not in my realm at that time,

abusing any kind of even
position or title. We were all

in it for Jesus. There was a
recognition of the anointing on

people's lives, on the authority
on people's lives. And because I

was in a Pentecostal startup,
there were not a lot of

positions or titles. So
basically, God either anointed

you or he didn't. And I think
that there's a lot to be said

about that. You know, the world
has sort of so moved, and we've

seen a lot more women step into
ministry roles, which is

fantastic, but we need to never
confuse a position or a title or

a corner office with spirit.
Authority, that they might be

really good things that a woman,
anyone should have. But what do

you do if you don't have it? I
work in so many countries where,

certainly in my lifetime, no
woman is going to have that. But

does she walk in spiritual
authority? Yes. And can she move

in spiritual so when you I think
my saving grace has been I work

in so much of the two thirds
world, or the developing world,

where I don't know in my
lifetime that there's going to

be certain things, where women
are put into certain positions,

I'm helping to create pipelines
and pathways, but it may take 20

years. But do I understand
spiritual authority when I'm

around it like, do people carry
weight that only God gives you

authority that only God, which
is very different to a position

or a title or an office or a
function. You can't confuse

those things with authority,
because I know people that have

got really high positions and
titles, but there's no weight.

There's no authority. I was in a
meeting. Here's an example, and

I've got no title, no like you
know, you could call me the

Right Reverend Doctor, Apostle,
soon coming, queen, evangelist,

Christine or Chris. I either
have anointing or I don't. I

either carry the weight or I
don't. It really doesn't matter.

But I've been in meetings in
various settings with, you know,

the Right Reverend, doctor, soon
coming King title. And then

someone has manifested in a
meeting like, and there's

demons. And these people, like,
go running, they've got all the

titles, the seminary, degrees,
the position, and they're like,

Oh my God. They throw me, like,
literally, Chris, go out there,

Chris, go and do it. And I just
laugh. And I go, you know, it's

sort of like when Jesus sent His
disciples out, no titles, no

positions, but he gave them all
authority I've given you. And

you know, the people go back.
Well, you know Jesus, we know

Paul. We know who are you? Who
are you? And I think that's the

bottom line in a world that
doesn't really talk a lot about

the supernatural or powers and
principalities, other than maybe

societal ones. But you know, not
real demons or those sorts of

powers and principalities. I
think you know whether someone's

got authorities or not authority
or not in settings like that,

whether you carry a spiritual
weight, so you can be writhing

and struggling, but if you don't
have the weight and you get a

position and a title, the danger
of this is the enemy is going to

come after you, because if you
don't have the weight to carry

that position and the authority
given to you only by God, like

There are a lot more eloquent
teachers than me, preachers than

me, way more seminary trained
people than me. And I know it

probably bugs some people, like,
how does God put Christine in

these arenas? And 10s of 1000s
of people on every continent

listen to it. It bugs a lot of
people because they want to tell

me, you're not trained enough,
you're not qualified. And I go,

I know, but I didn't anoint
myself. God anointed me, so as

long as I walk in that
authority, so can you train for

that? No, it's not like a skill
set. I'm not like a public

speaker with a skill set. I'm
walking under an authority and

an anointing that God's given
me. So I've never kicked down a

door. In fact, if it's ever
gotten any striving or whatever,

I'm going to pull back because
God opens doors that no man can

shut. And promotion does not
come from the north, south, east

or west. It comes from God. And
I'm old school enough, and Jess,

we could spend this entire
podcast of me telling you how

many unjust situations I've been
in, how many times I've been

overlooked, how many times I've
been sidelined, how many times

metaphorically, I've been thrown
in a pit because somebody else

wanted to go there, and some
things have taken years, maybe

over a decade, in one particular
case that I'm thinking of, but

God has always used it and Where
I didn't try to fight for

myself, defend myself, try to
establish myself, but allowed

God to do it. God catapulted me
further than I could ever take

myself. As I look at my younger
sisters and daughters in the

faith, this is something we've
got to get right, because we're

not talking about career
Christianity. We're talking

about, you know, Jesus said, Go
tell John the Baptist, the

blind, see the lame, walk the
you know, the sick are healed.

You've got to carry weight and
authority. It's not like I'm on

the latest speaking circuit, or
I've got the next New York Times

bestseller, or I've got the top
rating podcast that that that is

not a sign of anointing, that
could be a sign of good

marketing. And being good
marketing is really different to

being marked by God. And when
you can't discern the

difference, then we've got
problems, because we're not

really building the church,
we're just building a career.

Jessie Cruickshank: One of the
things that I was taught early

on, one was that all promotion
comes from God, just like you

like, like God gives you the job
or he does. And give you the

job. It's not actually man who
does that. So if you lose the

job, you got to talk to God. If
you didn't get the job, you got

to talk to God. If you did get
the job, you better be like, on

your face, talking to God.
Literally, literally, yeah,

well, I was cautioned against
early on, was taking things that

God did not give you so that if
you, if you took a position, if

you took a role, if you, if you
exercised even like we called it

soul power back then, you know,
you were trying to influence

people, to get them to do
something like that. Fell in the

realm that was named
manipulation and witchcraft,

right? Yes. So if you're
operating in a way, trying to

make people do a thing or take
influence that God wasn't

handing you in the room or in
the situation, then that was

like that was failing the test,
right? That was David and the of

a dolem going, Oh, God's given
me this really great opportunity

to kill Saul. Gonna take it. And
so what we were taught was to

two things to kind of counteract
that. One, we were taught to

hear the Holy Spirit like you.
You need to know what God is

saying versus what people are
saying, whether the people are

trying to celebrate you, And
God's like, yeah, no, not. This

is not for you, and they're
trying to push you forward,

right? So one was to hear God,
and the other one was that

authority is based on your
assignment, which comes from

alignment with who you're, who
you are, your identity, right?

It's identity based, not title
based, not position based. And

so you need to know who you are,
because that alignment creates

the authority the pathway for
anointing. Anointing is a

measure of how much in alignment
you are with who God says you

are and what he's asking you to
do. So what were you taught? How

do you see identity, assignment,
authority and anointing? You

know, connect with one another.
Yeah, I

Christine Caine: think you and I
obviously we our world collided,

because we were taught very much
the same thing, I think, in this

cultural moment. So of course,
we didn't have an internet, we

didn't have social media, and we
didn't quite have the outrage

culture that we well, certainly
you didn't have it on your

phone, 24/7, so that there was
that. I'm sure it existed. But

the issue is this utter
dependence on the Holy Spirit.

We've convoluted because we go,
okay, these people are

gatekeepers, and these people, I
think what we have forgotten is,

when you're filled with the
Spirit of God, the same spirit

that raised Jesus from the dead,
you either believe right from

the birth of the church. God
opens door like God opens doors

and makes ways where there are
no ways. He still parts Red

Seas. He still pushes back river
Jordans. He still tears down

Jerry go walls. He when we put
all the power into well, they're

the gatekeepers, and they're
stopping me. Well, we can't, in

one phrase, preach that nothing
can stop God, that God's will

will always be done, and that,
you know, so you can't say, I

believe that, and then go, but
the gatekeepers are stopping me.

Now, are there unjust systems
even? Because in the

institutionalized church, it's a
man made structure. So of

course, there are unjust
systems, but I've always

thought, okay if I was in a
secular job and and always think

about this way. And I went to my
past to say and say, I'm having

this real struggle at work, and
my boss is trying to stop me

from being promoted, and they're
taking all the credit for my

work, and it's not fair. I've
been there longer. And someone

else you know now, any pastor
worth their salt would be like,

Okay, if God has you there on
assignment, let's believe God.

Let's pray. Let's okay. How are
you going to display the fruit

of the Spirit? How are you going
to trust God? All of a sudden,

when it comes into the sort of
vocational ministry realm, we

suddenly think, I don't know
where we think we're going to

get tested. I don't know where
we think we why we think we're

not going to have to go through
all that, just like we would

expect everyone in our church to
go through that in whatever

circumstance they are, some
reason, really early on 1990

when I started, I had this
revelation that, oh, I guess

this is where I'm going to so
when you know maybe one of my

leaders or now, of course, let's
put the caveat out there. So in

Holland writes any letters, we
are not talking about any form

of abuse, anything illegal,
anything criminal, anything

immoral. That's the caveat, of
course. But I'm just talking

about the stuff that just is
life, that people are people,

and people are selfish and
people are narcissistic, and

there is certain things that,
you know, there's greed and

there's ego, and there's
jealousy and all the normal and

there's just even
miscommunication, and yes and

that, and there's just what, and
there's my own selfish ambition

as well as everything else.
Okay, so we all love to think.

Our own motives are pure. Where
else are our motives going to be

tested? Where that I'm really in
it for God or I am? How am I

going to know the difference
between a divine assignment and

selfish ambition unless it's
tested that wow was I was

obviously in this until someone
gets an opportunity I think I

deserve, until someone gets a
door open that I've been waiting

for for 20 years, until I am
unjustly overlooked. And you

know, so you've got to look at,
what is the culture, what is the

world, what is the church? Where
am I going to be tested for all

of this? It doesn't mean like,
oh, I go into this kind of

ministry realm so I can avoid
all the tests that every other

Christian in their normal
Christian life, in their

workplaces that my, you know,
brothers and sisters in Iran or

if Afghanistan right now, like,
try being a woman over there

right now, right? You know, I
mean, people go, you go to the

extreme. Well, of course, I go
to the extreme because it's got

the same Bibles got to work
there as it does for my women

that I minister to in townships
in South Africa or in slums in

Brazil. The same with me. It's
not all of a sudden, well, you

know, because I live in this
country with this thing, I

should be somehow exempt from
the same spiritual tests that

everybody goes through this test
to promotion, there's there's

every increased level of
anointing that I have in my life

has only ever come after a
profound season of crushing. And

where am I crushed? Because I'm
in the church world, that's

where my crushing is going to
happen. My crushing is going to

happen, and my motives are going
to be purified, and I'm going to

be tested and I'm going to be
challenged and I'm going to be

corrected, it's going to be in
this setting, because that's

where that setting is for me.
And so that's where I know, Is

God really on my life? And is
God opening a door, or am I

trying to push something open?
Do I think I'm entitled? And I'm

telling you, some of these
things are huge tests. Like,

Christine in total for what I
saved you from hell and death.

Like, really, like, you get to
do this, and you, you start to

look at your own heart and go,
Wow, because, you know, if

there's that sort of competition
or comparison, and then I get

back to, I'm not in faith,
because I'm not really trusting

God, because faith is predicated
on trust not understanding. Now,

if I want to understand
everything and make sure it's

just according to my system or
it happens my way or in my

timing, then I'm really not
trusting God anymore, and I'm

really not in faith anymore. I'm
on a career path and I'm trying

to make things happen. I'm not
saying because I've spent my

life the things that I do with
propel the things that I do is I

try to create pipelines and
pathways to give people great

opportunities and to allow the
Spirit to flow and to do what he

needs to do. But there's always
going to be, not only flaws in

the system, there is a real,
live enemy that wants to steal,

kill and destroy. So that enemy
is going to come in no matter

how perfect a system is, because
our motives have to be tested.

Our anointing to grow is only
going to come through crushing

and our motives are only going
to be sifted in that kind of

environment when we just think,
I've got a gift, therefore I

deserve a position. We've got a
problem, because it's not your

gift makes room for you, but
being marked by God and your

anointing is what keeps you in
the room and what enables you to

truly do ministry. A gift can
entertain a crowd. A gift can

draw a crowd, but only the
anointing breaks yokes and

chains and bondages. And to be
anointed, you got to be crushed.

And to be crushed means you have
to go through a process everyone

has. It's all throughout
Scripture. David was anointed in

First Samuel 16, but he wasn't
appointed until Second Samuel

chapter five, so 20 chapters, 20
years later, between anointing

and appointing. And during that
time, he was, you know, chased

by Saul, tried to kill, and
lived in caves and and we forget

all of that. What we do is,
because we live in a snap and

upload era, we think, Oh, I got
an anointing. So you might have

got a prophetic word, or just in
your own quiet time, you have a

sense that the Lord's called
you. And so then the next day,

you're posting that on
Instagram. And because we can't

discern, we think the culture
which is all about hustle, build

your brand, make it well, I'm
like, well, that's dangerous,

because we then bring those
things into instead of allowing

God to open doors, and when we
get a sense, he wants to use us

in a particular way. What in my
day, what that meant was, you

get into the prayer closet and
you get on your face, and you

start allowing the Holy Spirit
to do a deep work in you,

because you want to make sure
that this, the light of God on

the inside of you is greater
than any spotlight that comes on

you, because the light that is
on you will destroy you, as

we've seen in the last few
years. Is if the light that is

within you isn't stronger. So in
my day, if you got a prophetic

word, and I got many in the 90s,
like a lot of what I'm doing

today, even if there's a
cessation of listening to this,

if they were to listen to, well,
back then, it was cassette

tapes, which I've had now turned
on. Now had hypnotized. But if

you hear my prophetic words from
1990 you would I mean, even the

most ardent Cessationist would
freak, because they'd look at my

life now and go, it's happened
like, yeah, look at because they

see me now. But when I got those
words, my next thought was

never, well, step aside. The
fourth part of the Trinity has

arrived. Give me that corner
office. Did you not hear that I

am the next it was on my face. I
could tell you, I think I'm

being 100% sincere with you, on
my face, with my intercessory

team going, God prepare me. And
then the next prayer is, Lord,

Try me. See if there's any
either way, God prepare I don't

want to be like David. I don't
want to fall. I want to, you

know, like it was those it sent
you to your knees, not to your

social media account to tell
everyone. Hashtag, bless

hashtag, called hashtag, if you
want to book me, it just was

just never. Wasn't even enough.
King, to this day, I've never

given a card to someone in a
green room and gone. You know,

like never in my entire life
does it even occur to me it's

gone. And it's very hard for
some people to believe that, but

it is that that's how it's been
for 35 years.

Jessie Cruickshank: We were
taught that when you got a

prophetic word, like it was
going to be tested. It was going

to there was trial coming. Like,
you were vetted and tested and

like that was, that was the
thing you're supposed to hold on

to through the suck and the
suffering that here's God's

outcome for you. And yeah, we've
replaced that with entitlement

for the thing. And somehow we've
edited out, yeah, the testing

part, yeah. And

Christine Caine: the why of the
thing, the why of the thing, was

you had fear and trepidation,
like I was, to the point where I

was like, I remember even in our
early years of marriage, because

I couldn't go anywhere without
someone prophesy and I'd be

going to even want to go in that
room. I don't even want like,

because it would be like, this
healthy, but this fear of the

Lord, like, oh my gosh, because
with it comes great

responsibility. I still feel
this at 50. I remember my

spiritual mother said to me
early days, Chris, be really

careful what you pray for. Be
really careful about how many

people you know you want to
pray. People pray, Lord help me

reach millions. And she goes,
because the amount of people

that you can help is the amount
of people you can hurt. So be

really and I'm telling you to
this day, I'm still so cognizant

of the weight, which is why I'm
not flippant with what I write

people. Why don't you weigh in
on everything? Why don't I'm

like unless the Lord tells me to
I am willing for you to

misunderstand me than for me to
do something that the Lord has

not asked me to do.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love that
because the fear of the Lord

then being what guards you there
for me, it's interesting, like

why we don't talk about this
anymore, or why we haven't

talked about it in a long time,
because I was trained in the

early 90s in this as well. So do
you

Christine Caine: think it's
because of what's happened and

this sort of anti
institutionalized, anti

institutionalism, or do you
think it's part of the cultural

I'm actually interested I
actually think

Jessie Cruickshank: that we've
spent 30 years in the Church

Growth Movement, which had a
different goal, and the goal was

to put people in classes and
train them to be really good

volunteers. And a volunteer
isn't based on your identity in

Christ it's maybe based on a
gift set or availability. And so

because we haven't helped people
figure out their assignment, all

of our leadership training has
been for management that's good,

not based on their like, and so
we haven't taught them spiritual

authority. So we, I think we
have a generation of people who

have been trying to find
validation for how God created

them, or find validation for
what they think God is asking

them to do, and they spent all
their time fighting for that,

fighting the injustice that
exists in the system for that

that they don't even know
spiritual authority is like a

thing like, I think it may not
even exist for them. I don't

know. Actually

Christine Caine: agree. No, I
actually agree. And I'm talking

in the Pentecostal church as
well as the, you know, the the

broader sort of evangelical
church. And it's dangerous

because it's scripture from
beginning to end, Genesis to

Revelation is, is it this is how
ministry happens, I think, and I

don't know you could speak into
this. I think what we've done in

a generation is we've confused
activity with ministry, and so,

you know, and influence with
anointing. Yeah, we've confused,

yes. And I think those things
are very so when I think of

myself as a minister, so I'm not
looking for more activity,

whereas a lot of people, if
there's a lot of activity

happening, there's ministry that
I do that doesn't, that wouldn't

be on my strength finder number
one, on my strengths, or

anything like that. It's come
out of sacrifice and obedience.

And I'm like, wow, look what the
Lord did, because that's

ministry. But I think if all we
want to do is what's in my Okay,

let me find where I fit on the
DISC profile. What's my

Enneagram number? Where's my
strength finder? We have reduced

ministry to a personality
profile. And I'm like, those

things are okay. There's,
there's nothing wrong with, you

know, understanding some of that
stuff. But that is not where my

anointing and authority in the
kingdom has come from, like my

Enneagram number or my it's so
weird to me. That's not what

faith is not predicated on an
Enneagram number. It's not, it's

not a personality type. It's,
and I don't know that people

really understand that. Is all
the good tools, psychology, you

know, science, also, all of that
is fantastic. I'm a great lover

of all of that. But I don't
confuse that with the spiritual

realm or spiritual authority,
you know. And I think what we've

done is replaced, and we're in
that. When I look at through

different social media feeds,
and I'm like, there's so much

therapeutic language, so and I'm
like, but there's not a lot of

spiritual language anymore. And
I know there was a missed

certain things, like, you know,
in church life we missed,

there's a lot of books written
now by historians and stuff,

which is great because it was a
missing piece. But I don't need

to get all my theological input
from, you know, a historian or a

psychologist or I'm like,
there's still this spiritual

realm, and there is God, and
there is a kingdom, and there is

Kingdom authority, and there's a
kingdom mandate, and the kingdom

runs different to the world
system or a Christian empire.

And I think sometimes we try to
just substitute with worldly

things. Even those people that
are going, I'm going to tear

down the Empire, but they're
still using the Empire's tools

to tear down an empire rather
than going. And that's what I'm

seeing, I think, you know, and I
want to talk about this more

moving forward. I just don't
have all the language for it

yet, but in my spirit, man, I'm
like, listen, I run a global

anti human trafficking
organization. I put traffickers

in jail for a living. I am all
about justice. Everybody knows

that that's not an issue, but I
still can discern the difference

between kingdom, Empire,
worldliness, and using the tools

of empire to try to tear down a
Christian empire, rather than

discerning what is not a flesh
and blood, what are powers and

principalities? And I've got to
carry a weight for that in a

spirit realm, while I'm doing
the work of justice, but not

going so down that world where I
no longer can discern kingdom

and Empire. So I think you need
to write something about this

Jess because you're smart. But
there's this, there's this

intertwining, and the language
is so similar that people, I

think the most missing gift in
the body of Christ at this

moment in history is the
discernment of spirits. Is that

people have no discernment. So
we, in our reaction to hyper

fundamentalism and Empire. We're
not even realizing in some

areas, we are not fighting this
spiritually. We're fighting it

with the same tools,

Jessie Cruickshank: right? And
that means we're beholden to the

same powers and principalities,
right? Exactly, because, just

because you operate ignorant of
the spiritual doesn't mean that

you're free from it, in fact. So
my mom was a witch before she

was a Christian, and so she
taught me about how the occult

works and functions, and it
functions through authority

structures. And so if you don't
understand the authority

structure in the spiritual that
you're dealing with, you are not

fighting the Principality.
You're partnering with it, and

it's gonna make your dreams come
true for three to five years, or

something like that. It's going
to give you what you asked for

in ignorance, and so it will
feel like it's a benefit and a

help and and I even know people
who think that that's the Holy

Spirit, but because they don't
examine the way in which things

are done. They don't understand
the method of the kingdom versus

the method of Empire. They end
up colluding with the powers and

principalities. And you know
what they they win that you

don't. You don't win that
though. The thing that beats

them is the blood of Jesus. The
thing that beats them is the

cross, right? So you have to
stand in your identity as a

child of God, co heir with
Christ, who doesn't need to

partner with powers and
principalities, because they are

under your feet with Jesus,
right? So you're seated with

Jesus, so they're under your
feet too. And if you don't know

that, you will make partnerships
Alliance be an ignorance. Is the

thing I see the most. I see a
lot of ignorance that. Means

that you're under their
authority, because you're not

taking authority over them. So

Christine Caine: what are you
going to say to the people

listening to this? Going, let's
see, I can't believe that you

believe people still believe in
the occult and stuff. You still

think that's rampant. 2024

Jessie Cruickshank: I actually
think a lot of spiritualism.

Spiritualism is increasing.
Secularism is decreasing.

Spiritualism. Is increasing, but
not everything that is spiritual

is good or Right, right? It's
not, it's not an everything is

is safe, there is darkness,
there is evil out there, and if

you don't understand what it is,
it'll either put you in fear,

because it's a puffer fish,
right? It puffs itself up to be

more than it is, and it
intimidates you, or you'll

operate in the ignorance to it,
and it'll manipulate you,

because it's had, you know, a
long time, even though it's not

very creative, it has the same
like, it really has the same

five moves, but if you're
ignorant, it'll get you like,

it'll it'll manipulate You, and
it'll cost you more than you

could imagine you'd have to pay.
I just think that we can be wise

without being afraid, and we
can't actually be overcomers and

stand in the spiritual authority
that God has given us and really

experience the power of the
cross if we're naive and

ignorant. And so it's just,

Christine Caine: I think I'm
going to

Unknown: train you, just a
little bit of training.

Christine Caine: Well, you know,
you just think, when was the

last time? I mean, I'm talking
broadly, you know, I travel

always that you this is going to
be all my 2025, sermons, which

is going to freak people out.
But I'm going back to the blood.

When was the last time you heard
a sermon on the blood, the power

of the blood. And I am, like,
already bracing myself. I'm

like, okay, it is time. And, you
know, I'm old enough now, so

this is it, but, but this is the
stuff in 1990 9192 93 that is

the whole foundation of my life
in ministry, when people are

like, What? What has sustained
you to because I understood the

power of the blood, the power of
the cross, the power of

understood the name of I mean,
even now with people, you know,

so many sicknesses, so many
people asking me to pray, and

they always will comment to me
like, because my instant

response is always in the name
of Jesus. And they like, wow,

you're that. Like, you instantly
come back. I go absolutely

people hear me preaching. I
don't just say God. I'm like, in

the name of Jesus. I am so
intentional because of that.

When Nick and I, we've been
doing so much restructuring, so

many things this year, getting
up, taking communion, professing

the name of Jesus. I mean, also
when you and I were talking

before we got onto this, and I
said, I've got no real magic

thing. I'm back up at 530 in the
morning. I'm back up in the name

of Jesus. I'm back up taking
communion because there's power

in the blood. I'm back up
understanding the authority what

is mine, and remembering where
I'm positioned, that I am seated

at the right hand of the Father,
you know, in Christ, Jesus, and

that I have access to every I
mean, we're back to this, every

spiritual blessing. So I have
the mind of this. I'm giving you

all an example in real time. I
have the mind of Christ. So

while everyone has lost their
ever loving mind, you and I are

recording this on a election
result. And I'm like, it's like,

my gosh, my phone today. And I'm
just like, I have the mind of

Christ. I have the mind of
Christ. You know, it's, I'm

trying to be so simple for
people watching this, because

this is what it comes down to. I
want you to know this is not I

don't have, like, 10 Steps to
the successful life, but I can

teach you how to be more than a
conqueror through Christ, Jesus,

who strengthens you. I can teach
you how, 40 years later, to

still be in it. And my authority
is not in my name or my brand or

my books or my preaching. It's
in the name of Jesus, but my

joy. So what is Kingdom
righteousness, joy and peace in

the Holy Ghost. So how do I
know? You know? You said to me,

Chris, what's your litmus test
that that you know this is God.

It's like that. It's kingdom.
How I know that I haven't sold

out to Empire, and I haven't
become part of no matter what

anyone says, part of the
Christian thing is that I'm in

the kingdom because I by God's
grace. I pray that it's

righteousness. Is Christine,
where's that in your life? Joy?

Do you still have the joy and
peace of the holy in, in the

Holy Ghost, in the Holy Spirit,
not in anything, not in social

media profiles, not in
invitations, not in any titles.

I have righteousness, joy and
peace in the Holy Ghost. And

they're like, Oh yeah, I'm still
in it. This is this is it. And I

can be in the back of Guatemala,
like I just was in the back of

Cambodia, or right here in North
America, and there's, like, this

full kingdom, but that's a but
you gotta understand the ways of

the kingdom to be, you know,
walking in authority in the

kingdom. And the kingdom is not
Empire when you can't tell the

difference. Just because then
you think, Well, say for women,

they've never been in positions
in many cases of authority, or,

you know, Heaven be as they're
being elevated. It's so

important that we don't just
come like a secular world and

go, Okay, well, all the toxic
males with their arrogance and

narcissism were in the corner
office. So we're just going to

kick them out of the corner
office and we're going to get in

the corner office. This is what
I always say. Sin is genderless.

And so I am prone to the same
narcissism, I am prone to the

same toxicity, I am prone to the
same sin as my brothers are. It

doesn't have a gender so my
issue is that unless I

understand kingdom and kingdom
authority, I am simply going to

reproduce the toxic power
struggles and abuses that we've

seen, because women have never
been in those roles, and women

have never been in those roles
because they never had the

opportunity. Now that we have
the opportunity, we better learn

kingdom, and we better learn
spiritual authority, and we

better learn the power of the
cross and the blood and the name

of Jesus, and what is ours in
Christ, and who we are in

Christ. Otherwise, we're going
to do exactly what the guys did.

We're going to compete, we're
going to compare, we're going to

try to tear each other down and
and we're going to be back to

square 140 years from now,
except we were in the corner

office, not them. So I'm like,
Could we just get this right

with an understanding we are
marching to a different drum

beat, and it works differently.
But once you're settled in who

you are, in him, and you know
ultimately, where authority

Jesus says, I have given you so
it doesn't come from me. So some

people are going to like me,
some people are not going to

like me. Some people are going
to open doors for me. Other

people are not going to open
doors for me. But that's okay,

because God has given me. So
whatever authority and power God

has given me, you either believe
this or you don't, no man can

shut what God has opened. This
is I don't need to be on X

yelling at everyone. I don't
need to be I just like God will

open the doors. God will keep
them open. God will keep me

because I really believe this,
no demon in Hell, no person on

earth, can thwart the purpose of
God. Now, can they make my life

more difficult? Yes. Can they
cause me pain? Yes. But still,

Greater is He that is in me than
he that is in the world. And so

that's what I've got to keep
coming down to. I'm not exempt

from this fight. I'm not any
more exempt than my sisters in

Afghanistan. I'm not any more
exempt than my sisters in Iran.

So who am I to think just
because I'm here, I'm going to

get the red carpet rolled out
the enemy wants to steal, kill

and destroy my purpose as much
as everybody else's. So as long

as I understand I'm not fighting
against flesh and blood,

therefore, I don't have to play
the power games of the world.

Don't get

Jessie Cruickshank: on the
chessboard. You're gonna lose.

Your game is designed for us to
lose. Don't play the game. The

end. I win, actually, because
I'm God's kid, I win. I don't

need to play you, period.

Christine Caine: And but then
the test is, do you really

believe it? And you don't know
that until that happens. And you

and I talk about this a lot, and
we're going, man, there's not a

lot of people out here, because
you've got to pass that test.

And then when hopefully you can
stop blaming everybody else,

then it's time to look in. I
remember this one. I know we're

going to wrap up soon. We've got
a few more minutes, but I

remember there was this one
thing, and it was a really bad

case. It was in the 90s, when I
was still ministering in

Australia. I was working for my
denomination, and I was the

youth director of my state, and
there was a guy that had been

over. It only ever had guys. To
this day, I'm still the only

woman in Australia that has ever
woman period in the history of

the movement that's over 100
years old that has had a woman

in that role. But so it was a
real unique thing. You got to go

back 40 years. It was even worse
than it is today, kind of thing.

But this guy was he was over me
initially, and then was really

not happy that the denomination
had placed me in this role. And

so I had really set out to make
my life difficult. It could be

every story that you're reading,
every story about, you know,

undermining me, trying to close
doors of opportunity, not

forwarding information to me,
making sure I was excluded from

rooms all the tick every box
about, you know, what happens?

And I remember there was this
period, and I said to the Lord,

you know, I was about three
years in, and, but I knew God

had sent me and, and that there
was, you know, I'm going, God, I

feel like I'm in a pit. I feel
like I'm Joseph, and I've been

thrown into a pit. And this is
so unfair and literally, again,

how do you explain this? You
can't. And you know, for all

your listeners that are going to
think I'm crazy, this will just

confirm it. I felt in my heart
right then the Holy Spirit say

to me, Well, you better get you
better start rearranging the

food. Furniture in that pit,
because you're going to be in it

for a while longer before I do.
And it was like, this not not

like a punishment. It was God
had to do a whole lot of things

up here. So it's like, and I
just remember for three years

after that, because it was a
seven year total, my best

friend, and she was like, my
prayer partner. And I mean, this

is a daily thing. This is what I
mean. People do not want to

travail anymore or persevere
daily. I'm not saying what this

was. Every we had no cell phones
in that time, whatever. What

kept me. We had to hang on and
we had to pray. And I'd be like,

Okay, I and she'd be like, how I
go? Well, just rearranging the

painting, I'm putting it on
another wall. I'm just re

because it was like, I had to be
there. And then, when the Lord

did he suddenly. So, you know,
when everyone sees my life and

hears my stories, well, you
know, I could bypass all that

and just go, wow. And then
everyone's like, Wait, it was

straight after that that the
Lord not only lifted me out of

that pit, that he launched me
onto the global kind of world,

into the global church world.
And everyone is like, oh my

gosh, Christine, where did she
come from? Look what God's

thinking. I've been sitting in a
pit rearranging furniture for

the last seven years. In the
spirit. People think I'm crazy.

Well, nowadays, most people
would go, I shouldn't be in the

pit. It's not my it's right now
I'm again, I need to put the

caveat so that I'm not at all
misquoted. I am not talking

about any sort of abuse,
anything criminal, anything

illegal or unethical, but I am
saying there are times when I

knew my assignment. God had not
released me for the sake of the

young people in the state. There
was hundreds of 1000s of them

that we were ministering to. But
he was testing me, and he was

building me, and he was also
killing flesh in me, all of

those things that give you
authority, all of those things

and and so it was. And so today,
people like, how has she got so

much authority on a global
platform? Because my seminary

was the pit, you know, it was
like, it was like there was, and

so I guess I don't know, in 2024
2025 we have to have these

conversations again, I think for
fear of sort of any sort of, you

know, abuse or misuse we but I
think we're much more cognizant

now so we're aware of things
that are not right, but I don't

want a generation to miss this
vital aspect of Spiritual

Formation and where your power
really comes from, because we're

too scared to have the
conversation.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, I
appreciate you having the

conversation with me today. And,
man, we could talk about this

forever, because there's,
there's so many components to

this that I think just are
important for people to know how

to endure, well, how to travail,
how to hear, God, I find a lot

of people don't even really feel
like they don't feel that

confident that they can even
hear God. So we'll figure out

what that means for us as
friends, collaborators and

conspirators. But I just want to
thank you for coming and being

with me today. So for those of
you who are listening, this has

been the ordinary discipleship
podcast, my guest today has been

Christine Cain, and you can find
out more about ordinary

discipleship@houology.co that's
W, H, O, o, l, o, G, y.co, and I

actually do have a training on
some spiritual authority for you

and your team. If you're
interested in that, just reach

out and let me know. But my goal
is that every person would know

their assignment so that they
can walk in their authority in

the things that God has asked us
to do. So Chris, thank you so

much for being with us today.
Appreciate you so much. Thanks

for having me. Love you. Bye.