Jessie Cruickshank: Hello and
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship podcast. I am Jesse
Cruikshank, and I am here today,

actually, on location in Hilo,
Hawaii, with my dear friends,

Pastor Sheldon, Pastor bunny. My
husband is here. Bob. Say Hi,

Bob. Hello, there you go. He's
never on the podcast, but we've

recruited him today, and I am so
excited to share and introduce

Sheldon and Bunny to you guys.
They have been pastoring in

Hilo. They're best friends their
whole lives, and they have been

doing this thing together. And
what is amazing about them is

they have been practicing the
process of turning a normal,

regular, classical kind of, you
know, church that has programs

and cares about performance and
all that stuff. And they have

been migrating that church, not
from one that just makes

disciples, but to one that makes
disciple makers. And so want to

have a conversation with you
guys today about what that's

like, because I can, you know,
share, hey, here's how we did

it. You know, the environments
that I come from, but some to

some degree, you know, like the
wilderness ministry that was

starting from scratch, to some
degree, right? But you guys have

taken an existing congregation
that has been around for decades

and have been moving it. My
first question, just to kind of

warm us into it, is, how's that
been and how long has it taken

to like, like, how long has it
taken you to get to where you

are? So first of

Sheldon Lacsina: all, thank you
for having us here. Thank you

for letting us be a part of
ordinary discipleship. And we

listen to the podcast all the
time. So I'm thankful I know for

you too, Bunny. The exciting
part is watching what's taking

place today, because bunny
brought this maybe seven years

ago. I don't know when she met
you. I don't know

Unknown: how long that yeah,
long time before you and I met,

yes. So a while

before. So when she brought it
to me again, it was, yeah,

that's great. Sounds good, yeah.
But this is what we're doing

at our church. We have
discipleship programs, yeah,

yeah.

We have discipleship classes
already. So what are you what

are we doing? So it took a
couple years for me to even

catch the heart and vision of
what she was talking about,

because it didn't, it didn't
make sense. But when I saw her

life change, then I started to
think, Wait, what is Why is she

different? Because we'd argue a
lot, right? We're really good

friends, so maybe not argue.
It's more like she's wrong and

I'm right and I'm like, How can
you not see from my perspective?

Well, you thought you were right
sometimes anyway. So that pause

says it all. So there are times
when we remember there wasn't a

pause, yeah, it wasn't a pause.
It was, uh, whatever you want to

believe, right? Wait

Jessie Cruickshank: so children,
when you said that you didn't

understand, maybe like, Help us.
Help us in. Know your frame of

mind at that time, either what
you what you thought, or what

you heard, or, you know, because
I'm sure there are people out

there who hear about, oh yeah,
discipleship, yeah, even

ordinary discipleship. Sure, we
should all make disciples. We're

already doing that whatever, so
they might be able to under

identify with with worry.

Unknown: It was, it wasn't
measurable. There wasn't a 12

week course. There were no
metrics for it. There was no

certificate. There was this is
what I knew, like, how we knew,

yeah, so what do you mean? No,
that's and it was too simple.

It's just too simple. How can
that? How can that make me feel

like I have authority? Because
that's all we knew. You go

through this class, you get a
certificate, and now you have

the authority to go do something
in someone else's life, and now

you can mentor them that
qualified you, because nobody

wants to be discipled using air
quotes with someone who, like,

what are your credentials now?
Who hasn't been certified?

Right? You're not certified to
coach me. So that's what I

couldn't understand. I'm like,
okay, so how does this make

sense in discipleship? And she
used the term, I think it was

life on life, or something like
that. She also used terms like,

you come alongside of people.
You go on like you have your

journey. They have their
journey. I'm like, Yeah, but

Jessie Cruickshank: I wish that.
I wish the audience could see

your confused face. Oh my, yeah.
We should

Unknown: have filmed film this
too. So even in the context of

my neural pathway was this, this
is what I knew my entire life.

She's bringing something that is
so different and simple that I

just couldn't get it, not until
we were talking about something,

and again, getting into a debate
or back and forth kind of thing

that normally would go that way.
As we're getting into it, she's

fine. She's like, Okay, that
sounds great, if that's what you

feel the Lord saying we can do
that at first, I thought she was

being sarcastic,

because bunny. Was

never sarcastic, never, never as
Yeah. So, so when, when she said

it like that, I thought, okay,
she being real? Or is that or

she's being sarcastic? So I
said, so what does that mean?

She goes, No, that's fine. We
can do that, and we'll get the

teams ready, whatever it was.
And then the next time it

happened, I thought, that's
different again. And then there

are certain other things that
she wasn't doing. I was

thinking, Is she changing? Like,
why is she Why is she different?

So I had that in the back of my
mind. And then, and we, we do

life together, outside of
ministry, with our family, our

children. So when I seen her
different with her family and

with other people. I'm like.
She's not acting she's not being

sarcastic. This is an actual
life transformation. What

happened like, what am I
missing? What am I not seeing?

Jessie Cruickshank: So so
beforehand, discipleship to you,

was a program that gave a
certificate that conveyed

authority. It acted like had
nothing to do with heart change.

Unknown: Heart change was the
afterthought, like, like

everything was heart but what
was what we were doing? Didn't I

could say it didn't feel like it
was doing a heart change. It

felt like memorized scripture.
It was very performance driven,

very performance. High
performance

driven. Yeah. Are you studying
your Bible, and are you? Are you

in the Word of God?

Yeah. And if you do all of So,
your equation was, if you do all

of those things, then you're
then I'm worthy,

then you're worthy, you're
qualified, then you're called,

and then you can, now you can
serve. So you couldn't serve

until you were discipled, or
went through the discipleship

classes.

Bunny Correa: And if you were
difficult, like, in my case, you

know, if you were difficult,
you'd go to the discipleship

class. And I went, I don't know,
like seven times I like seven

certificates, like, Man, I still
can. I still can't do anything.

No, oh, okay, so it doesn't
work. Then your your system,

yeah, oh, unless I'm, unless I'm
a dude, then it would, then it's

different. But I mean, back
then, oh well, so it was, it was

different because I remember
having to go to the classes, and

then even part of before we got
married, it was like, Well, you

do know you guys need to go
through this discipleship

program so that you can disciple
your children. And so that was

like, oh, okay, because that's
what I thought, that's what was

told. So that's what I thought
we needed to do. And we did that

for years, years. And one of the
conversations that Sheldon and I

had when we were doing youth
ministry together, and we were

in our 20s, and we would talk
about the church and always be

like we were thinking about, Oh,
imagine if, and the way we did

discipleship in youth ministry
wasn't through a class. In fact,

we called it salt serving and
learning together. We did it

together, that's right. And we
just would come alongside of

these kids and and they were
like, Oh, it's so different. But

then by the time they got to
young adults, it's like, oh, I

guess you guys got to go to
discipleship, right? Yes, but

then we had a, but

Jessie Cruickshank: not the
detention version, right? The

like, you're gonna actually get
authority, not merits,

discipleship.

Unknown: But I think early on,
we we knew that we just the only

thing I knew how to do, like any
type of leadership was through

relationship, because that's the
only way that I knew how like

was taught to me, or I could
understand, or I received. I

didn't really receive very well
when someone told me what I

could and couldn't do, like,
that doesn't land. That didn't

land very well with me or my my
personality and so, and I've

been part of this church since I
was seven, so it's like, okay

and but I was, like, trying to
prove to my parents and to the

leaders and to God that I was
worth something because of all

the things that I did in my
past. So I thought, Okay, wait.

I have to prove myself and
decide if I just do this and I

look like this, then maybe
they'll believe in me. You know,

maybe this is what will happen.
But what we decided to do is we

had the conversation was like,
hey, one day we're going to be

the old ones in the church.
We're going to be the ones that

are going to be we can change,
like we might have an

opportunity to actually change
how we do things, not knowing

that God was going to put us in
these, oh, in these shoes. Yeah,

we I didn't know I was going to
be the senior pastor. No idea.

No in fact, when, when I became
the senior pastor, one of the

first things we did was redo our
discipleship classes. We redid

them, renamed it, but still was
missing something. Right? It's

like, it's just not. Landing.
And from it started with like 20

something people in one of the
classes, and then it ended up

with like seven. So there's a
high drop off rate. So we

thought, what if we just do what
we did while we were in youth

ministry, and just do life with
people.

But the church is so massive.
Yes, that was the youth ministry

we could do, because we had 100
kids, right? That was doable.

Because maybe we had 1015,
leaders, and we all could, you

know, rally around these kids.
Have right life together. But

then you take on a church that
has 1500 plus. How do we do that

when now our the staff is
smaller, and God was like, you

can't, yeah, right, no, the math
doesn't work. It does, and we

didn't know. And when we had
our, you know, I'm my aha

moment. I'm like, I'm texting
Sheldon, going, bro, we are

doing something wrong. And, and
I just couldn't get no, no, it's

fine, because the program,
because we have so many people,

it has to be this way. Yeah, we
cannot do it relationally. It

has to be this way. I'm like,
there has to be it. Okay. So,

okay. And you know, when the
Lord spoke to me about, don't

worry about the ship, because
the ship, you know, yeah, he's

like, don't worry about the
ship. It's gonna turn but you're

gonna have to, you're gonna have
to hold the

ropes for a little while. She
had to go through some brutal

moments to stay and to stay the
course, because to try and

convince me that was the most
difficult thing. Yeah, she's

Jessie Cruickshank: not the only
stubborn one in this

relationship. Yes,

Unknown: right and stubborn in
the right direction is a good

thing. I was stubborn in the
wrong direction, right? And so

being we all

are until it gets fixed,

yes. And I think along the way,
I think what has been the most

difficult thing is those who are
stuck in the system,

Jessie Cruickshank: they just
like being in the matrix, and

they don't know it, right?

Unknown: They don't know Yeah,
and they're and so they don't

know Yeah. They don't know that
there's a there's a vision

behind what we're doing. It's
not just dismantling things. And

we can cast a vision over and
over and over, but when that

neural pathway is just firing
it, it there on the not just

unwilling to learn, but almost
unable to, unless, right, you

make that choice.

Yeah, we couldn't say it was an
age thing, because my mom's in

seven. Oh, I don't believe it.
Yeah, it was like it was an

intentional thing. And then we
decided, You know what? Okay,

we're not gonna, it's okay. It's
okay, if that's what, you know,

that's how you do it. But this
is how we're gonna, we're gonna

start here. And and we just
started to like, let's implement

it first in our own lives, see
if we can do this in those that

are around us, you know? And
then we started to see, wow,

okay, wait, if we only did it
like Jesus, maybe that's the

solution to, like, do, wow. And
but having God's grace, like his

grace was so like, I look back,
I'm like, man, you're so good

because we didn't know it all.
We didn't know what to do, but

yet his grace was still present,
and people didn't leave. They

were being discipled. Holy
Spirit does his thing. We just

had to learn the correct system
and go with that. And the

correct system was to do it like
Jesus did. And we even changed

the model, like, of our our
church, like, these are big

decisions that people like our
elders, and people are like,

What are you doing? And this is
where I'm really thankful that

Sheldon is a captain, because
he's like, okay, like, but he's

caring, but yet he still knows
this is what the Lord said. So

therefore we're gonna do it this
way. But the way he did it was

very like, gracious. But on that
side, that side of like, Hey,

we're gonna do it reach those
far from God, one relationship

at a time that became our model.
Yeah, before we even the buy in,

happened like that. Oh yeah, for
the buy in. So he already, the

Lord was already speaking to
him, like, we gotta do it

through relationship. We just
didn't know how. Yeah, so

Jessie Cruickshank: bunny, for
you, learning about some of the

stuff around ordinary
discipleship, and, you know,

trying to entreat Sheldon into
these ideas and him, you know,

not getting it like, what, well.
And then you had to hold space

with that right for for a couple
years. What about the idea of

everybody being a disciple
maker, doing it Jesus's way?

Like, like, what about that gave
you enough hope to endure, to be

patient or long suffering to
not. Fight the fights, but trust

God like, like, what was the joy
set before you that helped you

wait it out? Well,

Unknown: one of the things that
one, I have a deep relationship

with Jesus, and I've always,
like, had conversations with

him, and when he told me, You're
not going to go anywhere. You're

going to you're going to hang
with Sheldon. I also have a deep

relationship with Sheldon, so it
became like, Okay, wait a

minute. I can do this, and it's
going to be a little difficult,

but you're going to help me. But
the joy comes from the fact that

I would have a group of young
adults like I would do, like,

this is what you're gonna do. I
said, Okay, I can do this, and

we would just cook. And I
started to learn from this young

man. He was maybe 18 at the
time, and I remember when, wait

a minute, am I learning
something from this dude? Like

he doesn't even read his Bible
at all. He comes to church, but

he's like, you know, but he's
doing life with me. And I

remember just having like, a
conversation with him, and I was

like, where did you get that
from? He goes, Well, I talked to

God, and he just told me to tell
you. I was like, wait what?

Like, you didn't go to seminary,
you didn't go. You're not you're

you know. But I was like, oh,
okay, wait a minute. Jesus is

talking to me through this 18
year old. And right there, I was

like, okay, then it's possible.
Hmm, like, God's like, I'm gonna

show you that's gonna give you
enough hope so then you can hang

and have this space and anytime,
like, and I remember you saying,

then, just be his friend, right?
Like, just be his friend,

because you're

Jessie Cruickshank: you could be
his mom, but the Lord is talking

to you through him and showing
you what a person who just

listens to the Holy Spirit is
capable of,

Unknown: yeah. And I remember
having the conversation like,

but what if? What if so and so
did could disciple us? No,

that's not possible. They
haven't been. They don't have

enough experience. Okay? They
don't have a certificate, yes,

but that was the the block. And
once we started to and he's

super like once the nerdy side
of Sheldon kicked in, and he's

competitive, so part of it was
like, Well, maybe you just

can't, I would use words like
that. Oh,

so I see the folding of my arms
right now. Yes.

Remember just like, Well, maybe
you can't learn from someone

else then. And he was like, No,
that's not what I'm saying. I'm

like, Oh, what are you saying
then? Holy moly. But, and that

young man was Travis, and he's
28 today, and it's been and we

still do life together. He's a
lifer, and now it's like we

learn from him,

Oh, my goodness, constantly,
constantly,

all of our younger ones, yes, so
we all have to do this together.

Yeah, that's how we're going to
have a greater reach. And when

that aha moment came, we're
like, okay, Jesus. Because how

did Jesus do it with 12? He can,
obviously he can do it with 12.

Obviously it works. How do we do
this?

Jessie Cruickshank: And how long
have you been taking the church

on this journey? On

Unknown: purpose, maybe two to
three years. Okay? On purpose.

Before that, it was
unintentionally, yeah, God knew

what He was doing. I didn't know
Right? Because everything I did

all my life was relational. I
was operating, even when we had

discipleship classes,
relationally. All I knew was

relationship, right? That was
easy.

Relational culture, yeah,

and why? Why work hard at
something that I'm not good at,

classroom setting when I do this
very well. So even with our

youth, I didn't know I was
discipling them. I just hung out

with them. They came to my
house. They all slept over. We

had, you know, sometimes eight
kids over the house just to hang

out and but that was the
culture.

I didn't so that was the
difference, right? Like,

discipleship was a thing to be
taught, and relationship was was

just being with people. They
weren't the same thing. I didn't

know, and

a lot of times I we would for
me, I would think, well, I don't

have any I'm your teacher. I'm
your mentor. You'll learn from

me. And I never really was like,
Well, I'm learning from you,

until I did learn something from
them, because I always was. They

were like, Auntie bunny, you
know? What about this, this and

this, and we would hang and all
the kids would come over. We'd

do all these life we would just
do life together. But it wasn't

until I realized I could learn
from them as well. I needed to

get to a place of it's not about
me. I needed to go through a lot

of deep like sifting. And the
Lord would give us words. We was

every year, it would be like a
word. And there was maybe 2021,

the word was sift. And I was
like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no. And, and
then yeah, and he would be his.

Hype to the staff was like, You
think last year was hard? This

year is going to be even harder.
Are you guys excited? You're

excited? Like, get ready, yeah,
yeah, so and so that I was like,

COVID was going to come. But
then the Lord gave a word, I

think was our 2022 and it was
intentional, specific and

purposeful. And we're like,
Well, what does that mean? We

don't know. For Sheldon to say,
I don't know, but all I know is

something's going to be
different. And we started to

just even do it with our staff.
Like, let's just be intentional

with our staff. It was us first.
Yeah, the staff

also so that they knew what we
were doing and why we're doing

what we're doing. Because the
unknown is a problem for me. I

want to know, right? But what
the Lord also showed was,

because we're opposite, for
bunny and I, opposite sides of

the spectrum. And what I mean by
that is, let's just say, for

instance, when we talk about how
we speak with people, she'll

have one perspective. I'll have
a totally different perspective.

She'll say, go to the youth
ministry. We have some young

adults there, and there's a
problem. I'm like, Oh, they can

handle it, yeah, but it might be
dangerous, because a person is

on campus right now. I'm like,
Yeah, but these are men. They're

grown men. They can take care of
themselves, yeah? But they're

they're young kids. I'm like,
they're in their 20s. They're

not young children. They're
like, my babies, they're not

your babies, because she's seen
them grow up. So so I get the

motherly side. My side is too
bad. Yeah, but what if they get

hurt? Then they get hurt. Not
every hospital, not everybody

makes it.

Not everyone makes that's how we
lie, the polar opposites, which

is necessary for the both of us,
that we find that middle ground.

Listen to Holy Spirit. So
there's sometimes where I need

to yield. Sometimes she needs to
yield so that the polar

opposites work. I am discipling
without knowing it relationally.

So by the time it comes to her
saying, I can learn from these

guys, I'm already learning from
them, but I was learning the

things I wanted to learn. When
her aha moment was, I can learn

from them. I'm thinking, I've
always been learning from them,

but my aha moment was, yeah, but
I'm picking and choosing what I

want to learn now it's I need to
learn that if that doesn't feel

good, I would just learn the
things that feel good to me,

right,

Jessie Cruickshank: that you
were interested in, or healthy

everybody, it

Unknown: was hard to get to a
place where we were vulnerable

because we thought that was
weakness, right? And how do you

lead when you're weak? And so
that my that mentality, when we

made that mind shift, like, wait
a minute, it's not about maybe

he, he's making us strong in our
weakness. So it's better if

we're

Jessie Cruickshank: weak. It's
the ninja move that people don't

know. Yes, right? Oh, wait, God
is there's more of God when,

like, I'm okay to be weak, like
God's power shows up and I don't

have to do it. So

Unknown: that transformation,
and watching what God was doing

in her and Bunny, I could pick
up on very easily because of our

relational value and how close
we are as brothers and sisters,

we could, I could pick up on,
wait, that's real. That's not

she's not performing. She's not
it's not a facade. So what is

that? That's what got me to a
place of candy to learn this

then. And I love neuroscience. I
love the brain. I try my best to

study it as much as possible how
the brain functions. I'm

intrigued and curious about it.
So once I heard about you, and

it may have been at one of our
conferences that you taught, and

you taught about someone who was
drowning, and that how to save

them through and you're talking
about discipleship, that your

life, you're like a life
preserver for them, that you're

going to come alongside of them
on their journey, and you're

going to stay afloat together,
and you're going to risk your

life for them. Yeah, you know,
just says, jump off the cliff.

Yeah. Now jump off the cliff,
but you

graduate to jumping off the
cliff, you just have the

parachute.

Yeah. So once, once I heard
neuroscience. Once I heard neuro

over the cliff with them. You've
got the parachute.

So I was locked in once it was
neuroscience. So

Jessie Cruickshank: funny.
You've been on this journey for

about eight years. Sheldon
eventually joins the club, joins

the club, gets on the right
page. And I

Unknown: mean, finally we can
learn new things. Oh my gosh,

I'm teaming up with someone.
Finally we can move on down.

Jessie Cruickshank: And so you
guys kind of work that, and the

Lord is teaching you stuff it, I
would say probably. A fairly

private way, because of the the
vulnerability was, was in its

Baby, baby step phase, right? So
then, and I remember when we

talked in 22 and you were
talking about, we're going to be

intentional. And for you, what I
what I took away from that

season was that you were
starting to narrate a little

more about how you thought you
were. You were starting to bring

the staff into the your mindset,
right? So you're explaining,

you're being intentional. You're
explaining what you know and

what you don't know. Here's my
intent, but I don't know what

the plan is, things like that,
right? So, so now you're

inviting them into the space
that you're at, and that's

completely different from for
them, right? Then that's a

radical experience for them,
because they are used to program

performance, execution,
delegated to right like here,

tell me what to do. My job is to
show up and do the thing, which

is an amazing thing in a
volunteer, until you start to

change the culture, and it's
very disorienting. Then when

that's the way it's been for
decades,

Unknown: we started with
community agreement. That's what

we ended up. I said, before we
make any drastic changes, let's

bring definition. And we are not
we just were like, Okay, let's

just try to do this with our
small teams, which was like a

train wreck, because it was
like, Okay, everybody, bring

what you want part of this
agreement. What do you want our

team to you know, how are we
going to thrive? What words are

you going to bring? Like, we
were like, we thought it was

going to be so easy. Because for
us, we're like, yeah,

Jessie Cruickshank: yeah,
because you're, you're four

years in the journey, shelves,
two years it was a journey.

They're beginning the journey,
and they're like, what, like,

Unknown: where are we going?
What wilderness? Well, it's a

journey. It's, it's about the
great adventure, no, but where

are we gonna go? We do Sunday
service, yeah, yeah. So it was a

lot of back and forth, you know,
people not getting it, and we're

like, he was a little bit more
like, no, it's fine. Just that,

that word's fine. I'm like, No,
but they need to have

definition. So it was like, it
was crazy. Let's just say, but

what is crazy? But what we
realized a good way, was we

thought everyone understood what
we were saying until we did that

exercise, and then what God
highlighted was we have a whole

younger generation that their
definition of anything, maybe

family, you know, or
transparency, like everybody

wants to be, oh, we want trust
and transparency. And we're

like, Okay, well, what does that
mean to you? Oh, that you would

just be honest with also that
on, like, literally, no one

could define, no one could land.
And when we finally did, it was

like, Can I even do that? So
bringing it back, we had to

scale back and go, Okay, wait
Lord, help us be able to do

this? And how are we gonna? And
we just it has to just be in us

at this point, instead of making
it again a mission statement or

this or that, like

anything else is still ongoing,
right? But the common phrase

that I get, and I understand it,
it happened this morning, is

guys don't worry about that,
that we don't need to worry

about that, and they're like,
You taught us this. Yeah, maybe

don't worry about that. You
taught us about excellence. You

taught us about things need to
be done a certain way. You

taught us about timing. So what
are we supposed to do? You

trained us for this like we
well, then ungrained yourself.

Then did I say that? Wait? Did I
wait? Did I say that? Oh, I'm

telling

you something different.

Yes. And that's hard, because
it's been ingrained in them for

some of them, 10 solid years,
and

they're watching. And the thing
is, it was watching Sheldon,

like, match his words, right?
Once his actions started to

match his words, there were some
people were like, it's just

easier to operate in law. Just
do, tell me what to do, and I'll

do it. But now it's like, Wait,
we're gonna, we're gonna operate

in love. What does that look
like? Well, there's still law

and love. Okay, wait, what does
that mean? Okay, we're gonna

have to just show you. So
whenever he would be you still

are in our staff means
transparent or vulnerable. And

he's like, Hey, sorry. You know
that's an old neural pathway.

I'm really trying to relearn
this, because I do want it to be

excellent, but I also want you,
what is your excellent? And

let's What is it about the
people, not the program, right?

And so once we started to to
live that way, they were able to

trust, right? And there's still
a little residue of like, the

fear, because that of the PTSD,
what we would say, like,

because, because of my reaction,
but then how you respond to it.

Now we quit. We are quick to
like, hey, hey, let's, let's

talk this out. Let's have this
space. And a lot of times I'm

just, I'm like, I'm in that
space, and I'll ask certain

questions. How did that make you
feel? Okay? So I. Can we

acknowledge that that feeling is
accurate, but is it true? And

they be like, it's not true.
Okay, so it's not true, but the

feeling was accurate. And then
there's confession, and then

there's what we call like pono,
and we bring it back, and okay,

then we can move from there. The
more times we do that, there's

more trust now, right? And now
they they can start to relearn

and unlearn and experience new
things and experience new

revelations and and, yeah, we're
still in it, but I don't think

we'll ever be out of it. I think
this is just an ongoing thing,

and it's our life, because we're
humans and where people and

things are, but you're

Jessie Cruickshank: starting to
turn a corner, right?

Definitely. Now, now the staff
have been on the journey for a

couple years, okay, maybe one
and a half. Yeah, maybe Okay,

one and a half, 18 months
intentionally, right? So, so

you've been being a disciple and
and then you've been sort of on

the DL, discipling them, but,
but helping them experience in

it. Because it was so
disorienting to when you were

naming everything, so So
experiencing more, kind of

starting to name. And now you've
got a couple cohorts into, you

know, people going through the
the the book, going through the

material and learn just, you
know, just learning the new

thing. While you're you're also
kind of ninja, recreating the

culture. And you know, you're
asking them to start making

disciples. So it, it's, it's
going through its next, its next

season. What, what are you
seeing? We're six and eight

years into this adventure. What
are you starting to see? I

already

Unknown: see fruit because they
see what we're seeing. Yeah,

they see what they read in your
book. They see it and they

notice it in one of them said, I
didn't know I was I had the

opportunity to decide to
disciple my sister. Yeah, I'm

talking to her the other day,
and I'm talking to her, she's

talking back to me, and as I'm
talking to her, I'm thinking,

and that was her aha moment. Oh
my goodness, this is the person

I'm supposed to disciple, yep.
So that's what she does now. And

her sister doesn't come to
church, but she's discipling

her. She gets to love her where
she's at, and now, as a sister,

she's not frustrated at her
sister, because that's her

journey. That's her sister's
journey, and that came out of

going through our cohort with
huology, just the understanding

of no as a disciple, you follow
Jesus. You choose to follow

Jesus, you choose to live
changed, but now you want to

make a disciple maker. Now you
come alongside of them, and you

help them do what you do. You
help them live changed lives and

following Jesus and be changed
by Jesus. That's that's all

you're doing. So you, what
you've been able to bring to us

is simplicity, and we always say
it, it's simple, but not easy,

right?

Yeah, it's not easy. That's why
God keeps it simple,

simple. And so I do see fruit. I
see the excitement in the

people, even those in our
cohort. And we keep it to 10

people because it we're able to
relate. We don't need the

masses. So we're trying to do it
in small pockets, so that they

get it. We want to go deep. We
don't need broad. We want to we

like from the very beginning.
Want to make sure we do this

thing. Well, we don't need 1000
people. We just need 10. If we

can love on these 10, we can
help equip these 10, then we're

good with that next cohort.
Then,

because it becomes exponential,
right? If they, if it's deeply

caught, then even if those
people don't stay in leadership,

or don't stay at the church,
yep, wherever they go, that's

the point. They're they're going
to do the same thing. They will

be changed forever. To me,
hearing your guys's story, it's

the Jesus story, right? You
know, you live, you live the

fruit and and people want that
fruit, right? Like you Sheldon,

you're like, Bunny is different.
Why is she different? Yes, I

want to know why she's
different, because I like who

she is. Now, you know. And so
you keep asking questions, and

you keep trying to find out, and
then that just keeps spreading.

Yeah, spreading, yeah.

One of the fruit that I have
been able to witness is our

younger cohort attendees, and
knowing that they chose this one

girl, she's like, I think I'm
going to disciple I'm going to

tell my grandma that I'm going
to disciple her and wow, to

think that we break that that
mindset of only older can teach

younger, and younger only can
receive rather than teach. That,

to me, is a huge hurdle,
especially in our culture,

because she she. Came in, she's
like, I'm not really that great.

I was, I didn't have good grades
in school, and I have a hard

time reading. And you sure I'm
I'm supposed to be in here. And

I'm like, yes, yes, the Lord
specifically said you. And she's

okay. I don't know who I can
disciple. I mean, maybe my

younger brother, my sister
anyway, for her to come back and

say, I, because one of the
exercises was to ask the Lord,

and she's like, okay, let's
just, let's just do it. Let's

try. Just try it. And for her to
say, my I'm going to ask my

grandma, and her grandma is
someone who comes to church and

will probably say, okay, yeah,
let's I want to be a disciple

maker, and to me, it's like that
makes all the hard work worth

it, and it gives me the hope
that even when I'm not here

anymore, that it continues
exactly what Jesus did. I'm

going to go and you guys are
going to do great things,

because my spirit is going to
empower you. And I rely on that.

And I just am like, Okay, Lord,
what do you want us to do? And

he's like, do what I ask. Just
go love my people, my sheep, and

tell them about me and empower
them, and I'm going to send the

Spirit and and, and that makes
me hopeful. And it's it made

holding the rope for all those
years worth it. I knew it was

worth it because, well, that's
why

Jessie Cruickshank: I had to go
through the discipleship class

seven times. You had the strong
enough seven certificates,

exactly. It's like seven years
worth of certificates. Look at

this. Guys are so drained. You

Unknown: know what I love about
that? Because I because I was

asking the Lord. I said, that
can't be in vain the Lord. And

he said, No, people still
learned. They still were able to

memorize scripture, they still
got the word, they were still

able to do but they didn't make
disciples. What we're trying to

do is make disciple makers. So
they went through the class and

they be, some of them became
teachers, but they're just

teaching them to do the same
thing. It's not perpetual,

because where are they now,
right? If we had 200 people

through those classes, we should
have 200 discipleship Oh, 200

disciple makers. But we didn't.
It ended, and that, that was it,

and then they served. But this
is perpetual. We're talking

about. This is you're, you're
making disciple makers. It is a

lifestyle. This is an ongoing,
continuous life. There is no

ending, right? So I'm still
being discipled. There's I'm

still just today. Today, I
caught myself and I said, I

said, Hey, that's a good idea.
That's probably what I didn't

think about. I didn't see from
your perspective. Tell me about

that, then they would tell me,
this is what I see. I said,

Awesome. Why don't you guys talk
about what you just learned

today, let me know how I can
help, and then we can move on

from there to me. That was that
had nothing to do with the thing

we were fixing. What it had to
do is, what it had to do with is

I felt anger, I felt
frustration, but then I'm being

discipled by this person right
now that my old neural pathway,

I feel it, but my new neural
pathway is now firing, so now I

have to switch to this new
neural pathway, and now I have

to unlearn what I've always
known to learn this new thing.

How can I learn from what he
just said? So I had to stop

myself switch that neural
pathway and intentionally listen

to what he was saying. So it is
ongoing. It is continuous. I

have an unbelievable team around
me, right? Teams with others

that they're going to call me on
it, they're going to get in my

face. Great team, yeah, and we
give them permission speak to us

too, because we're all

friends, we have to be friends.
Who we're we're this is our

community. Yeah, right, so
that's who we're going on this

journey with. This is who we're
with. Everyone has something to

bring, and we do it together,
because it's not just one person

telling everyone what to do.
It's how do we partner with what

God is doing in you? And how do
we do this? Because It's he who

sits on the throne, not us.

Jessie Cruickshank: So you can
experience, you're starting

experiencing how it's actually a
light burden and an easy yoke is

a game changer, right? Because
it seems super theoretical.

Slash, don't really believe it.
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I

don't have enough faith, and
that's why it feels heavy and

hard. But when you when the
culture starts to shift, and you

feel the burden lift, because
everybody is doing it, and

really the Holy Spirit is in
charge, like, oh, you can't go

back. I when I felt that change,
like, I can't go back. I can't

go back to anything that's not
shared leadership. I can't go

back to something that feels
like a burden, because I know

that's not the Lord, right? I
mean, we are talking six, eight

years, right? And I tell people,
it takes a long time and they

want to program because that can
produce results. Yeah. Within 12

weeks. And it's not like that,
unfortunately, but let's say

that there is, there's a person
out there, and maybe they're a

ministry leader, maybe they're
just a person in their church,

and they're contending for a
community that makes disciples,

an actual thing where we do it
all together. How would you

encourage them? Let's, let's,
maybe, yeah, close with that.

And like, what advice would you
give them or encourage them?

Because even though you have
positional authority, doesn't

mean actually anybody listens to
you or they do what you say,

right? So just because you know,
you could be the top dog or the

senior pastor and say, This is
what we're doing now, and no one

goes with you, right? So it so
where you are in the

organization kind of actually
doesn't matter all that much.

Yeah, so to anybody, what? What
would you say? What advice would

you have, or encouragement?

Unknown: Stay very close to
Jesus. Just hold space with Holy

Spirit. Just sit and let him be
your encourager, because there's

going to be moments where you're
going to think, this is nuts,

like, Am I able to do this? The
answer is no, you're not, not

without him, and so holding that
space with him, I'm going to

tell you right now, when you
whether it happens in a year,

whether it happens in eight
years, it will be worth it. It

will be so, so worth it. And the
community that you'll see

thrive, the reach like me,
someone may never see you in

that private space with Holy
Spirit contending they don't

have to, because that's not why
we do it. We do it because the

Lord said so, and that is where
the honor comes. And you're

honoring the Lord, and you may
not know why or how long, but

when you're obedient, that's
what the the blessings come, and

I'm now witnessing things I
never thought I all I wanted was

for Sheldon to be nicer to me.
That's all I want, unless you

are right. I was like, bro,
what? I was like, Lord, what are

you doing? Why? Why? And he's
like, you don't need to know

why, how you're gonna hold this
rope until I tell you let it go.

And when you let it go, the
cells are gonna open up, and my

wind's gonna blow and you're
gonna see that. Don't worry

about who's in leadership I was.
Don't worry who's in charge.

Don't worry about like I was in
this room, this space in 2010

where the Lord told me that, and
I was so frustrated. I'm like, I

couldn't breathe, and I didn't
know why I couldn't breathe in

this I was like, What is wrong
with this church? Like I can't

breathe, like it's so heavy, and
the Lord's like, this is what I

need you to do, and I need you
to pull down the cells are going

to come down, and there's the
ship's not going to move, and

you're going to hold the rope
until I tell you. And I just

contended for Sheldon, and I
prayed, and I just sat and I

said, Hey, Lord, what do you
want me to do? Need you to pray,

and you need to and you're going
to honor me in that, not anyone

else, and no one's going to see
you. Are you okay with that?

Like no one's going to see you
doing this? Are you okay with

that? Yes,

and I struggle long as he's
nicer to me. No, no, I wasn't.

That was a joke, but it was
like, because we still did

ministry, and I just remember
Kay Lord, and it would

constantly come back up and and
I would have to do retreat to go

spend time with Holy Spirit.
Like, are you sure? Is this

really what I'm supposed to do?
Because, and then I would get

job offers. You know, when I
would leave home, it would be

like, I could be like, breathe.
Oh, I can do who be, who I was

supposed to be. And then the
Lord's like, no, I need you to

stay right there. I was like,
Okay. And then whatever, the

Lord's like, I'm going to work
on you. Don't just look at

everybody else. It's going to be
you that I'm going to try to

unpack all of these things. And
I remember just holding on. And

that was the vision. Gave me.
Just hold on to the rope, and

you're gonna sit there now.
You're gonna see other people do

things, and you can't do
anything because you're holding

the rope, and you're gonna see
Sheldon at the helm, and you're

just gonna hold the rope until I
tell you to let it go. And it

was right before, like, think
it's 2019 it's about 2019 it's

coming to the end of 2019 when
the Lord said, Okay, let go. And

I just let go. And it was like,
it the winds came, and just our

whole church just, and what was
interesting about it, because

right before pandemic too, and
it was like, and now we're

starting to see a different
like, he's giving us different

direction. And I can look back
and go, oh, oh, that's what you

are doing. And now I can
encourage others. Hey, maybe the

Lord's telling you to hold rope.
Just hold that rope. Sit and

when you let go, you watch what
he does, and you get to be a

part of what God's doing. So be
encouraged with. That because it

is life changing, and people
come to know Jesus, and you got

to be a part of that.

Jessie Cruickshank: That's so
good. That's so good. She'll

anything you'd add to that.
Yeah, I mean, it was perfect.

But to

Unknown: add anything it was, it
was my aha moment. Was watching

Doctor Strange. So Doctor
Strange came out his there's a

line in the movie where Doctor
Strange says something, it's

supposed to be funny. The
sorcerer, librarian, I forget

his name anyway. He doesn't
Wong, yeah, he doesn't laugh.

And Dr, strange says, usually
people laugh at that. And he

says, did they work for you so?
And he said that, I'm like, Oh,

my goodness, are all these
people that are around me like

that because I'm the senior
pastor and they must behave this

way? Are they? Are they my
friends? Or aren't they my

friends? Because long ago, when
I was in when I was a junior

high Pastor, I was maybe 21

around there. While I was
serving, one of the teenagers

was acting up. Left the youth
room. I went after. I said, Hey,

why aren't you listening? So we
got into this squabble. And then

she left with, you're not my
dad. And then she walked away. I

said, Hey, I may not be your
dad, but I'm your friend, okay?

And now we're still good friends
today. She's like, 40 something

years old. Anyway, the youth
pastor told me, said, and he

heard what I said. He said, I'm
going to teach you something

right now that will help you.
You cannot be friends with

people in ministry. Then the
moment he said that, instantly I

felt the Lord hold that like
guarded my heart. Oh, thank God.

And said, don't listen to that.
Don't listen because all I knew

was to be friends with people in
ministry. Another person told me

you cannot hire your friends
because there's a conflict of

interest. So you cannot be
friends with people on staff.

Lonely at the top. And then that
was the other one, just letting

you know, when you get into this
it's going to be lonely at the

top those three moments. The
first one was, don't listen to

that. Guard your heart. The
second one was, why can't I

Jesus had friends with him? The
third one, when they said it's

lonely at the top was then I
don't want to be at the top. Why

would I want to get to the top
and be lonely? Who wants that?

Right? So I'd rather be at the
bottom with my friends than on

the

top right 100% yes. So if

God calls me his friend. Why
can't I call my coworkers my

friends? Why can't I call people
to ministry? My friends? Yeah,

ministry is hard. Do it with
your friends. Do it with your

friends. That's why we can
continue to me the highest form

and the highest honor of any
relationship is friendship.

Yeah, yep. God calls us friends.
How much higher can we get in a

totem pole of or a hierarchy of
relational value, it has to be

friendship. And

the other thing is, like, it's
lonely at the top. I mean, God

doesn't even do it alone, right,
right? You know, it's not

biblical to be alone, like he
can't even do it. Like, yeah,

there's the Trinity, yeah,
right. And so, yeah, bad advice,

and I'm glad you didn't take it
for those who

are listening and you're
wondering, like you, you stay

strong in relational value if it
takes eight years, fight for it,

fight for your relationships,
fight for the value that you

have. And when it goes bad,
don't just forget about it and

say, Okay, well, too bad. Like,
learn something from it. And

yes, as far as it depends on you
be at peace with all people, but

that's the farthest you can
actually go. You can't force

people to be your friends. You
can't force people to when

there's betrayal, to now come
together. And you must do this.

You do the very best that you
can when it comes to relational

value. Other people are going to
make their decisions too. You

can't own everything that
doesn't belong to you, or you

can't own things that doesn't
belong to you. You can own what

belongs to you, but if other
people make their decisions, you

can disciple and love from afar
too, and just continue on with

what bunny said. So you got to
stay close to Jesus. That's the

only way possible. The more we
run to Jesus, if you look at a

triangle, right, if you're on
opposite ends, the more you run

to Jesus, the closer you get to
each other. So run to Jesus.

Jessie Cruickshank: You guys are
amazing. You guys are amazing.

We love you so much. I love you
guys so well. Thank you for

being on the ordinary
discipleship podcast today. I

hope, if you're out there and
you're listening, I hope you

were encouraged. I hope you were
challenged. I hope you were

inspired, if anything, be
inspired to come to Hilo,

Hawaii, and come visit New Hope
Hilo and see what it looks like

to turn a culture of of a large.
Your church, right? Not not a

not a starting church, not a
smaller church. They have

different cultures, different
challenges, but you can always

come out here and visit, yes, my
dear friends and so we love you.

If you are interested in more
about hoology, you can always

check out whoology.co. That's W,
H, O, O, o, l, o, G, y.co, we've

got some resources. We've got an
online class that you can have

for small groups. So it's a it's
a Bible study and and Bunny you

you know, you can get a
reference if you want, and ask

them you know how it works and
how it you know what they like

about it. So, but we just want
to thank you for joining us

today and yeah, be blessed. Go
be out there with the Lord

Aloha.

Unknown: Aloha, a.