Chris: Hey everybody, welcome to
another episode of ordinary

discipleship Podcast. I'm Chris,
that's Jacob, that's Jesse, and

today we are going to be talking
about, when do you speak up?

Maybe it's in a relationship,
maybe it's your husband or your

wife, and they say something
kind of disparaging, and you're

like, Should I check that
person. Now, should I just eat

that comment? Should I go to bed
resentful? Maybe it's something

happened at work, and you're
coming back home and you're on

the couch watching some Netflix,
and you go to your spouse and

you say, Man, should I should I
say something to Jerry? Because

Jerry's getting a little out of
control today, we talk about

knowing when to speak up. And
with that being said, I think

Jake, Jake, you said, We've got
to have God, God's eyes, God's

heart, God's tone, God's timing.
Jesse developed a special card

to walk you through it. Man,
what an episode today.

Jessie Cruickshank: So this is
actually, this actually is in

the book ordinary discipleship.
And it comes and I comes out of

a lesson that I learned in life.
I have the ability to see

things, to be aware of stuff.
You know, I it's just part of

how God made me. And when I was
in charge of the wilderness

ministry, like I would, gosh,
that person has this problem

that person needs like they're
fearful here, they don't trust

God there. Oh, wow, that's an
unhealthy dynamic they have with

other people. And I thought,
because I was like the disciple

maker in those relationships,
that it was my responsibility to

talk to everybody about their
stuff. My I thought it was my

responsibility to bring it up,
to point it out. Well, you know,

hey, I'm just going to show you
your blind spot right now. And

that's kind of the language that
people use. And it didn't go

well, like, ever, right? Ever.
In fact, one of the my co

leaders, the only fight we ever
got in was around a situation

where something perceiving
something, and I talked to

somebody else about it, because
I'm like, Oh my gosh, we got to

talk to this person, because
this is a big deal, and we need

to, we need to figure out how to
deal with it. And he comes in

and he's like, that's not your
place. That's not your right.

You're wrong. Actually, you
don't even understand what's

going on. And this is like a
super sweet human who never

yelled at anybody, and he's
yelling at me, and I just

couldn't understand. I'm like,
Oh my gosh. Like, this is I'm

actually for this other person,
right? I see something that's

bad. I care about them enough to
want to do something about it.

And I was really confused. So I
go and talk to my mentor, and

I'm like, Hey, I see this thing
that's not good. I brought it up

to somebody, right? Thought
that's what I was supposed to

do, and it blew up in my face.
In fact, now I'm in relational

rift with someone who doesn't
even like, like, I must have

really hurt him, because he
never gets in a relational

breath. And my mentor goes,
Okay, well, you think you're

seeing what God you think you've
seen what God has seen like you

think that what you're seeing is
accurate. And I'm like, yeah.

He's like, Okay, so do you love
this person? Do you care about

about who they are? And I'm
like, Yeah, I really care about

who they are. He's like, okay,
is God showing them this

situation? And I said, when no,
like, that's why I needed to go

talk to them about it. And he's
like, Wait a second. Do they

hear from God? Do they pray? Do
they follow God? And I was like,

yeah. He's like, okay, so if
God's not talking to him about

it, why are you Oh? And I was
like, oh, oh, like, like

somebody had just punched me in
the gut. I was like, wait, wait,

wait a minute. What? Like, I
thought that was my job. Like, I

thought that that God was
telling me so I could go talk to

them, because obviously they're
not listening to God and they're

not paying attention. And so he
has to tell me to be like his

wingman, because he's not
getting through so I got to do

it. And my mentor was like,
yeah, no, no, wow. In fact, he

said, If you ever talk to
somebody about something that

God is not talking you are
actually being disobedient. And

I was like, Oh my gosh, like I
had to rethink so much about my

leadership, about my
conversations, about the way I

thought I loved my friends well,
and I created this mantra to

help me know how long to keep my
mouth shut. And so for me, it's

that, you know, do you have
God's eyes? Do you have God's

heart? Do you have God's tone?
And added that one because,

like, oh, wait, sometimes God's
really gentle and sometimes

God's a little severe. So I also
need to be with him so much that

my tone. Tone matches this Holy
Spirit's tone. So even though

I'm angry or upset or am
intense, the Holy Spirit is

gentle. I gotta be gentle, and
so timing. And then when I have

all of those together,

Unknown: then I can speak up. I
just I'm thinking back to what

your mentor said to you in the
questions that she or he, I'm

not sure who it was he was
talking to you about. He's like,

so do you love this person?
You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah. Is this person like
talking to God? Like, is praying

to God, speaking to God, hearing
from God? And I'm just curious,

like, if that answer would have
come back, like, No, I don't

know, you know. Like, I wonder
with because it's interesting,

because, like, Jake's dad, of
great pastor, Paul, would always

say, if somebody is not aware of
like, their sin, you got to

hammer them with the law and
make them feel like the guilt of

what they've gone through. But
he goes, most people know that

they're sinners, and so that's
why we've got to share the

gospel with them, like we've got
to be graceful and show them the

gospel. And it's only in those
like and I think back to a time

Jake and I had to visit this one
kid in prison who had murdered

his mom and buried her in a
church and and it was like the

first big time prison visit I
ever met. And I walked in, and I

sat down, and I could just feel
like the I could feel the pain

of all the souls in that
building. And it was just so

dark. And I sat down, and he sat
down, and it's like 12 hours, 24

hours after he had murdered his
mom, and he goes, Yeah, they're

calling me famous in here. And
I'm like, Oh my God. Like you're

famous because you killed your
mom. I like your card system. I

like the ability to to sit down
and say, Oh my gosh. Am I

mimicking the voice of the Holy
Spirit? Am I seeing that person

as somebody that is God's
creation, Am I doing it in a

loving way and walking beside
them? That's really important.

And I think what a wake up call,
and what a punch to the gut when

you thought as a young Christian
that I'm actually speaking as

I'm the voice, I'm like,
ushering in the voice of God.

And they're like, Yeah, you're
really not. You're just kind of

impeding the whole process. So
chill out, Jacob. What do you

think about this whole thing?
Yeah,

Jacob: I think what came to my
mind as Jesse was talking was

there's a way of talking about
ministry that I picked up in a

community I used to be a part of
where we said it's about coming

into agreement with the Holy
Spirit, okay? And so it's about

discerning what God is saying in
the moment. And then I don't

actually have to have to say
anything new. I just have to say

what God is saying. And so like,
the image in my mind is like, if

there's me and the person with
whom I'm ministering, and

there's God, it's about trying
to bring those, the three of us

into alignment. So like, if it's
somebody who's in need of a word

of hope, I don't have to conjure
one. I just have to help them

hear God's word of hope by
agreeing with the Holy Spirit.

If it's somebody who needs
confrontation, I don't have to

bring the confrontation, like
you said, they're already

experiencing the con, like the
condemnation of their sin. I

just have to come into agreement
with the reality of the moment,

fair and so. So I think what it
does is it takes pressure off,

because I don't have to show up
and and do something. I just

have to, I just have to find a
way to come into alignment with

what the Spirit is doing. So how
do you do that? God's eyes,

God's heart, God's tone, God's
timing. No,

Jessie Cruickshank: so Chris,
you would ask to ask the

question, what if they weren't
hearing from the Holy Spirit,

right? And, and I kind of
wrestled through that a little

bit in the conclusion that I got
to is like, who am I to judge?

How? How do I know what God is
saying to them in their heart,

in their innermost being, God's
dreams, like, I don't like, I

don't get to judge that
actually, in fact, like, it even

bothers me when other people are
like, well, I don't know. Maybe

that was just you and and, look,
I'm for testing a word, but I'm

not for and validating the way
that somebody else. So my answer

was, I can't judge their part.
All I can do is sit with the

Lord and work through my part
right, which is eyes, heart,

tone and timing. And so when I'm
struggling to answer the

question, Do I speak up or not?
Do I say something here? I

actually just use them as
journal prompts and say, Okay,

I'm going to sit with the Lord.
What do I do? I have God's eyes.

What do I see? And Holy Spirit,
what do you see? And are those

in alignment, like Jake said,
God's heart. Do I love them the

way that God loves them? Because
if I'm just trying to fix them,

then I don't love them the way
God loves them. If I'm if I'm

annoyed, if they're. Frustrating
me, if they're inconvenient, if

I feel triggered or harmed, I am
not loving the way them, the way

that God loves them. And so like
that one, that one doesn't check

off, you know? So I just use
them as journal prompts and and

sometimes I've come to the
conclusion that I'm too in this

situation. I'm too affected by
the situation to be the person

who speaks up, because I can't
get to the place where I can

just be in alignment with the
Holy Spirit and not be upset in

this situation, and the tone is
something I can't figure out how

to get to. Now I'll keep doing
my work with the Lord to get

there and forgiveness processes
and things like that. But it may

sometimes, I'm like, God, you
got to send them somebody else,

because it's just not me. Yeah,
it's not me. I can't do this.

Then I can turn that into
praying for them and just

saying, God, you gotta, you
gotta send somebody else.

Unknown: I was a part of a
discipleship community. I

mentioned it before, like a
mission team I was a part of for

a year, and so we were in teams
of seven, and we traveled

together, and we served
together, and we often lived in

the same place together. So we
spent a lot of time together,

but we had, like, a regular
practice of feedback a couple

times a week, and we had a
couple of rules. One was like,

if somebody gave you feedback,
the first thing you had to say

was Thank you, and if you had a
reaction, you couldn't give it

right. Then that was an initial
rule. It got a little we flexed

on that one a little bit
eventually. But then the other

rule was the 24 hour rule, which
was like, if you have something

to say, you have to say it
within 24 hours. Now, the

expectation was that you were
using the time to prepare, and

that would be like we didn't
have this language in that

community, but that would be
when you're journaling God's

eyes, God's heart, God's tone,
God's timing, and you're

preparing to offer the feedback
to the other person in a way

that you're hopefully coming
into alignment with what God is

already saying to them in my
community now, like as a part of

a church, I don't see people
nearly as often as I did when I

was on that ministry team. So I
don't use a 24 hour rule,

because I just don't see them
often enough, but I will give

myself a deadline, like, I need
to have this conversation before

x point, or I know we have this
meeting coming up, I need to

have a one on one conversation
before that meeting. And that'll

that gives me some
accountability to do the work I

need to do to make sure that
what I'm communicating is being

communicated with God's eyes,
God's heart, God's telling,

God's timing.

Jessie Cruickshank: So I think
about doing this like in a work

right? Because, because most of
us have jobs, and most of us are

out there and like, this is a
big deal in our work

environments. Like, what do you
what do you say? What do you you

know, do you stand up for
yourself? Do you not? Do you

just absorb it? And like, Oh,
they're having a bad day, right?

And so using these journal
prompts with with family and

coworkers, for me, has been
super helpful, because, like,

like, Jacob said, I'm like,
okay, maybe I'm supposed to hold

space with this, but I want to
do that because God has asked me

to not because I don't think
that my opinion or perspective

is valid or valuable, right? I
don't want to absorb it because

I'm somebody's punching bag. I
want to absorb it because I

stand with Christ, who died on
the cross, and I can say, You

know what? I can, I can, I can
take this and give it back to

Jesus. So I don't resist saying
something because I agree with a

narrative that's not true. I
resist saying something because

I'm agreeing with God's story.
And God's story says, Wait, hang

on, I've got grace for you in
this. Or God's story is like,

you know what? It's time to say
something, and there's grace to

do it with his tone, and he's
showing you that timing. And the

timing is, usually they bring it
up first. It's, it's hardly ever

like 1% a confrontive, you know,
blind spot kind of conversation.

Usually I wait for the teachable
moment or for them to say

something, and I'm just
confirming because that's a life

giving conversation while
punching somebody in the face

with their blind spot or
something they did in an

accusational way. That's not a
life giving conversation. God's

got to redeem that

Unknown: right? So when to speak
up, when to hold back. God's

heart, God's eyes, God's mind,
God's what I almost got it,

God's eyes, okay? God's tone and
God's timing. That's how you do

it. Right there in the middle of
that delightful sticker is the

huology logo. I think that's
gonna do it for this episode. I

think we've kind of hammered it
out. I think we've got it

figured out now. So thank you
guys so much for joining us to

for the ordinary discipleship
podcast. And if you liked this

episode, make sure to share it
on your socials. Make sure to

review it. Make sure to give us
five. Of stars and Jesse. If

they want to know more about the
amazing work you do with the

kingdom through hoology, what
can they do? We're

Jessie Cruickshank: going to
share out Jacob's cell phone and

email address so they can just
reach out to him anytime he's

available. 24/7, especially for
counseling problems and church

hurt conversations. So if you
want him to come talk to your

pastor, please give him a call.
He's really good at that. But if

for whatever reason, that number
or that email address just don't

seem to be working, you can
always find us@houology.co

that's W, H, O, o, l, o, G,
y.co.

Unknown: Awesome guys, thank
you. Jacob Jesse, we will see

you next time on the ordinary
discipleship podcast. God bless

and we'll talk to you soon. Bye.
You.