Chris: Welcome to another
episode of ordinary discipleship

podcast. My name is Chris.
There's Jacob, and, of course,

Jesse. And today we are talking
about something in discipleship.

You know, a lot of times Jacob
brought this up before this

podcast. You go to a new member
class, right? And you're sitting

there and they give you the quiz
where you figure out, this is

where I'm gifted, and then they
figure out where they can plug

you into the church. And I'm
wondering if that's the right

way. Well, you know, a lot of
times we figure out, okay, if

I'm good at this, if I'm good at
some kind of talent, let me be

the best in this church at that
talent. But maybe, just maybe,

it's in community where we
really discover, I our identity.

Jesse has spoken about this.
Jacob spoken about this. I've

listened about this, and I'm
excited because there are 5c

that you're going to want to
walk away with. We're going to

define them. We're going to hear
a story about jellyfish today. I

mean, we've got it all packed in
in 20 minutes. Jesse go, Oh,

Jessie Cruickshank: I love it.
So when I do training with

churches, one of the tools that
I use that that is reflected

back to me to be one of the most
useful ones, is this five Cs.

Now, I didn't, I didn't write
this, and there's like 1,000,005

C's out there. So I'll tell you
what this is. But this comes

from Malcolm Weber, and it's
this idea that the discipleship

journey, or if we're going to
look at like scale, from the

inside out, goes Christ
community, character, calling

competency, and that this is an
order. It's an order in which

you build right? We start on
Christ, we center on Christ. And

that is, that is our core
Christ. Likeness is the goal.

And then around Christ, we form
community. So we have a

community of faith, and it's in
the community that our character

is developed, right? Character
isn't developed outside of

community. Character is
developed in community. We've

we've talked about that on a
different podcast. And then out

of that, as your character is
formed, we begin as a community

to start to discern calling, and
then we can be equipped, or

become more competent towards
that calling. So that's kind of

like the big overview. But we're
gonna, we're gonna unpack a

couple of these.

Chris: Okay, well, let's unpack.
I mean, here's the suitcase. Do

you wanna unpack it? Right? Who
wants to unpack this? Well,

Jacob: I think so those words
that Jesse used could all mean

different things in different
contexts. So we'll like, walk

back through them for one more
second. Christ, we kind of know

is Jesus, right? So what we're
saying is like the formation of

your identity begins in Christ,
and as we find our place in

Christ. We discover that we're a
part of a community. We are one

together with all those who are
in Christ. And as we've talked

about in other episodes, being
in community with one another

can be uncomfortable. And so
it's actually in bouncing off of

other people, reflecting off of
other people, that we begin to

form our character, who we are.
We are shaped and we're refined,

and it's then, through that
refinement, discovering the way

that we serve and are served by
others, that that's how we

discover calling. Once we've
settled into who we're called to

be and what we're called to do,
then we can get better at it.

That's developing competency.
And what why Jesse is saying

this is most helpful is because,
and what Chris was saying at the

opening with like a gifts
assessment is that tends to say,

Hey, what are you good at? Let's
just help you major on what

you're good at. Let's just
double down on your skills, and

that'll be your calling. But it
neglects this identity formation

that starts in Christ, continues
in community and is refined as

you develop your character.

Jessie Cruickshank: And at
worst, we end up with like this

pathway that we can see
sometimes, where we take a gifts

assessment, go to seminary, and
we gain greater competencies,

but then we're like, oh, out of
what I'm good at, I'll discern

my calling. And we never
actually get to character. So we

end up with well trained people
who may be in the right like

calling, gifting, vocation, but
they they have no character.

Their character is not Christ
likeness. And because we didn't

take the formation pathway in
the right order, we came from

the back end thinking, Oh, well,
if being if knowing what I'm

supposed to do and being good at
it is the measure of success, we

just want to jump straight
there, and we miss and neglect

that formational journey that
actually has an order and a

pattern to it.

Chris: So yeah, maybe we talk a
little bit more about the order

and the pattern of that. I mean,
obviously you have to start off

with Christ in the middle, but
then speak a little bit about

community. What's that look
like? What's that mean? This is

different than what I've been
through. For sure, it makes

sense that our identity. Is
formed in community. But are you

talking about this from, like,
the perspective of a church,

like this is how we should do
discipleship, or as from the

perspective of an individual?
I'm kind of confused on that. I

Jacob: think it's true of all
people, that we find out who we

are by by reflecting off of
others. So I actually like, I

don't really know completely
like, if I'm only looking at

myself, I only have one
perspective, but when I know how

you perceive me, that reveals
different things about myself

and about finding my place in
community. I mean, think about

like your family of origin,
right? So it's kind of like most

people know birth order makes a
difference, yeah, and that's

because the role you play in
your family can be determined by

the birth order, and we all kind
of find different places to

occupy in that family system
growing up, and that's how our

identity is formed. So like that
family of origin conversation is

a conversation about a community
that forms in a household that

helps you to shape who you are,
for better or for worse. Now,

what we're saying for a church
is that church being centered on

Christ allows us to form our
identity in Christ as we all are

centered on him together.

Jessie Cruickshank: So some of
the neuroscience there is that

we know each other by the way
that we interact with other

people like because of the way
the brain forms, the way the

because of the way that identity
is is crafted and formed in our

souls and our personhood. We
have to have other people to do

that. At the beginning, we have
to have other people to feed us

and to change our nappy and to
like, clean us up and all of

those things. Then we have other
people, and they name us, then

they model for us, like what to
do and how to get along in this

world. I mean, as a species, we
have an extraordinarily,

ridiculously long development,
and that's because there's

supposed to be this community
around us that has helped

growing, shaping and forming us,
and that's how the brain is is

molded into, like, where we're
going. And that journey actually

doesn't end. There's not like
one thing you're supposed to be

and do in this world. There's
many things that you're supposed

to be and do. And so that that
journey, it's a journey of

identity, and there are these
different markers, right?

Because, you know, I'm a kid,
then I'm a teenager, I'm a

college graduate, and then I'm
a, you know, I mean, I'm a

bride, and then I'm married,
right? All of these things are

just different markers on that
journey, but it they're always

not about us necessarily
individually, but all always

about us in relationship. And
that makes me think about

jellyfish. So I have two
favorite creatures in this

world. One is slime mold. Slime
molds, my favorite creature and

my second favorite creature is
jellyfish. When jellyfish are

bonded, okay? And I'm gonna, I'm
using air quotes, each cell

comes out individually, and
those cells then come together,

like, like this, like one of
those cells sends out a signal,

and all the other cells come
around it. And what organ they

develop, what part of the
jellyfish they come they become,

has to do with where they are in
relationship to the other cells.

So they can be a lot of things,
but what they become actually

has to do with what what the
other cells are around them. And

they they form a jellyfish,
y'all is super cool and like

sometimes I think about the body
of Christ like that, right? We

we are things but and we have
different capacities and

different things we could be.
But it actually what helps us

know what we're becoming and the
trajectory that's supposed to

take is the community around us.
The community around us helps

craft us, helps determine what
part we are in the body of

Christ. So we need that aspect.
So in community, we discern

calling, and I just love that
God created that way. We don't

actually have to go on this
journey all by ourselves to find

it on. You know, some guru on a
mountain top or in a cave

somewhere, right? It's, it's not
a solo journey. He binds us to

each other because we can't
actually, because here's why, we

can't actually live out that
purpose by ourself, either. So

the community is both the place
that that is discerned out of,

and then the community gets to
receive that calling and receive

that gift and receive that
capacity. If it's just by

ourself, then what even is the
purpose of it? Right? We're

alone and figuring it out, and
we're alone and executing it.

And so God knits us together
from the very beginning, because

it's both the source of the
discernment and the recipient of

our gift.

Chris: So talk a little bit
about character. We're talking

about community. We're forming
our identity in community. And

then all of a sudden, the third
C is character. And I can't

remember if Jake, you define
that or not.

Jacob: Yeah. I mean, I think,
like what we're talking about

there is your character is your
collect, a collection of values

and behavior. That you've
developed that kind of are an

anchor or a center. For you,
what Jesse is talking about is

like, when all we do is help
people develop a sense of

calling out of their skills,
none of that is anchored in a in

a in a compass. And so we're
releasing people into leadership

positions who haven't developed
character, they don't have, like

a an anchor point that's formed
out of community that can be

problematic. And so I so for us,
character is that beginning to

to be shaped and honed around a
set of values and behaviors that

that you've developed in in in
that relational discernment

process. So

Jessie Cruickshank: like when I
first went in a minute doing

things in the name of God, which
is a terrifying idea, I had

heard that most people fail out
of that because they they don't

have character, right? They get
promoted to a place. They say,

quote, you get promoted to a
place, your character can't keep

you. And I was like, Well, that
sounds awful. And then I just

hurt everybody, right? I don't,
I don't want to be responsible

for things I'm just gonna screw
up. And so I made like, a

determination for myself that I
would always let my character

through, like I would always let
my character be out loud, and I

would let my character lead the
way. Because if everybody saw me

and saw who I really, really
was. Then we would all eat, we

would all be on the same page on
whether or not I could do the

thing or not, like, whether or
not I was gonna be successful,

whether or not I was ready.
Like, there was no fake it till

you make it. I don't want the
job if I'm just gonna screw it

up, right? I don't want the
responsibility if I can't do it.

So I I was like, I'm gonna talk
out loud, I'm going to show

people my heart, the gross, the
good, the bad, the ugly, and

will when I'm ready. We'll all
know it, or when you know and if

there's a thing in me that needs
to be shaped, we'll all know it.

So I really leaned into that
process of my character being

formed and assessed by the
community as a safety mechanism,

both for my soul and for the
lives of others. So that was,

like, one of, that's, like, one
of my convictions about how to

live in this

Chris: world. No, that's good,
as opposed to, I think a lot of

churches like a needs assessment
or a skill assessment, and then,

okay, wow, you're really good
with kids. We're gonna throw you

in the nursery for five years,
as opposed to something like

that, and never have a break,
right, right? There's no end

time. You're here in purgatory
of kids church for the rest of

your life. Then finally, we get
to the fourth step, the fourth

C, which is calling. So we've
already got Christ as our

center. We've got our identity,
kind of developed by the

community that we have around
us. We have our character.

We've, you know, kind of the the
flagpoles that we base our life

and our decisions on. And then
finally, step four is like, Oh,

let's see what God has called
you to do.

Jessie Cruickshank: So people
define that differently, right?

I mean, just, just, just to
acknowledge that, like there's

purpose, there's anointing,
there's calling, there's

assignment. These are all
different. These are all words

in this area that that people
will have their own definition

of and understand how they use
them. I think about calling as

as assignment, and that it is
seasonal. So just just for me, I

don't think about the one thing
put on earth to do like I think

that's that's too high stakes.
It's too narrow. So what,

however you want to define this,
if we can just acknowledge that,

that there's a journey to it,
that there's change to it, that

there's what's right for this
year in this moment of my life,

and then there's what's right
for you know me 10 years from

now. So however you want to
define that, that's kind of how

I think about this. Because we
need to understand, what is God

wanting us to do right now? What
is what is God? How does our

identity make a difference in
this world right now? And the

community support that the
community help us think about

that our character be refined so
we can do that less harmfully

and more life giving for others,
and that that's not just, that's

just not everything, right? I
like to think that, like, right

now, none of us are going to be
astronauts. Like, that's not an

option for our future. Okay? So
none of us are going to have

that as a calling, so we don't
actually have to train for that.

And yet, in church world or
faith communities or

discipleship stuff, we're like,
oh, I don't know. I don't know

what to do. So we're gonna,
we're gonna try to help you do

everything, or we're gonna train
you to do nothing. Like, like,

instead of saying, hey, what do
you feel like God is asking of

you, how can we partner then in
helping you gain some competency

that get equipped? Let's, let's
pull money and send you to

seminary. Let's pull money and
help you start that nonprofit.

Let's, let's use our resources
as a community to support the.

Whatever being it looks like for
you to be competent in the thing

God is asking you to do. So I
just, I just think, we can make

it. We can either make it so
mystical that it becomes lame

and like, I don't know,
uninspiring. Oh, man, I heard

the other thing. What's my
purpose in this world? Well, I

don't know. Like, we make it we
make it too much. And so then

our reaction is to make it
nothing. Instead of going, what

is God asking me to do right now
in this season of my life? And

how do I, how has my community
come alongside me to help me do

that? Well?

Chris: Well, I guess we have
some breaking news. I had

initially spent a significant
amount of money on Space Camp

2025, on the to be an astronaut,
but Jesse, Dream Crusher, I

guess I'll cancel that ticket.
Just cancel right now. No, I was

thinking about get a refund.
Buddy, get a refund. I have

until January to make a final
decision. I thought about what

you were just saying, like, for
a long time. I worked at a

church with Jake and Jacob.
Sorry, he's older now. They put

me in kids church, and I didn't
really or they put me in, yeah,

kids church, like, middle
school, high school, I didn't

really know what I was doing.
Probably wasn't very well

educated in it, kind of just
skating through and one of the

district presidents said, You
know what, you should go to

seminary? And I was like, Yeah,
I don't want to do that. And I

don't really want to be a
pastor. And then a year later,

Jake and I went through the same
seminary program. But it was

interesting, like, after I
decided, You know what, I'm I'm

actually enjoying working with
these youth. I'm actually

enjoying what I'm doing. I
should be better equipped than I

saw. The need for more
competency in the field so I

could, like, not that I have all
the answers, but I needed a

couple. And so talk about that,
Jacob. Like the competency is

the final part of this. What do
you what? What are we saying

there? Like, is it competency?
Is that education? What? What is

that? I

Jacob: think it's just getting
better at stuff. That's really

what we mean there. So, like you
said, it's honing the craft,

it's developing skills, it's and
so it it's different depending

on who you are and what you're
doing, but it is about continual

improvement and developing your
gifts and talents to fit the

calling that God has given.

Chris: So I guess that could
look different in a lot of

different people like you know,
right?

Jacob: Yeah, and so sometimes
it's education, sometimes it's

interpersonal skills, sometimes
it's organizational skills, but

it's about being able to to to
develop its personal

development, for the sake of
calling, right and and I think,

like this conversation, it
doesn't only apply to church

settings. I think it's actually
even easier to imagine in a in,

like a professional setting,
there's an intuition that it's

like, if you've got a supervisor
at work who says, How can I help

you do what you want to do,
rather than just, how do I make

you do the things I need you to
do? The first one's better,

right? So, like, if, if it's
just, oh, look, you're, you're

really good at sales, let me
make you a sales manager. Well,

I don't really like managing
people. I just like sales.

Chris: That's classic. That's a
classic. I worked at T Mobile,

and every time when I was in
business to business, sales,

they would always take the
number one salesperson and make

them a manager, and they would
always fail. Like, that's not

the same skill set. Just because
you're a good salesperson

doesn't mean you can manage
people. And I was like, right?

Yeah, totally different.

Jacob: And then again, is like,
if you talk to the leading

salesperson and say, Do you want
to be a manager, they'd probably

say, No, I want to be a person
or like your to your point, if

they do say no, I do want to be
a manager. Well, okay, how are

you relating to your coworkers?
Have you developed the requisite

character to be a good Exactly.
So in that case, manager is the

calling we're talking about,
right? And so, so it's about

discovering whether you're
actually shaped to be a manager

before we put you in the

Chris: position. No. And it's,
it's so funny, like the things

that make a good salesperson.
You're a lone wolf. You're out

there chasing your own leads.
You're doing all that like you

don't care if your fellow
salespeople are doing well or

not, and then all of a sudden
they're like, You should be the

coach of this team when your
number one motivator is your own

commission. Like, Okay, never
mind. I'm done with that. I'm

just saying, I spent a lot of
years in that field, and I saw

Jacob: it, yeah, but so then
notice how we do that in church,

though, right? It's like, oh,
you feel called to ministry.

Let's send you to seminary,
which is a competency writer,

rather than saying, Oh, well,
who have you discipled? How have

you? How have you been, how have
you been engaged in ministry in

your existing community? So like
we jump to competency rather

than anchoring in community. In
character, and so I think, and

that's kind of, I mean, I think
that's bringing all of these

topics together, is that's the
disparity we're trying to

identify here. Because

Jessie Cruickshank: at the end
of the day, the goal isn't that

we don't the goal of the kingdom
work here isn't that we have a

bunch of pastors right the end
of the day, the goal is actually

that every person who calls
himself as a follower of Jesus

and has made that commitment, is
living as a missionary. And we

don't actually need pastors,
because, look, I'm just hurt

somebody's heart, right there I
have. I'm an ordained minister,

right? I'm part of, I'm part of
the problem, but that we all are

actually doing it, and I can
pastor you, and you can pastor

me, and we can support each
other. We can have our faith

community that is so healthy,
it's like a bunch of adult

children when when mom and dad
aren't there, and we can figure

it out, and we could get it
done. So the goal is not

everyone's a pastor. The goal is
that everyone's a missionary in

the world, in their everyday
life, and we can do that well

enough as peers, as brothers and
sisters, that we don't have to

have someone come in and be the
boss of all of us. Wow, that's

actually, you know what?

Chris: I think we cut it right
there. You cannot. You can't end

it any better than that. That's
great. Jesse, you've, you've won

today's podcast. Okay, uh,
everybody. Thank you so much.

Wait, what's

Unknown: my price? 20.

Chris: You just won 10% off your
next Chick fil A purchase, Jake

will send you that coupon off of
his app anyway. Thank you so

much for joining us in the
ordinary discipleship podcast.

It has been a blast. Make sure
that you review this. Give us

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Help other people find this

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you want to learn more about

what is going on over at
whoology Jesse, tell

Jessie Cruickshank: them you can
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Chris: with that, you get
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okay, guys, thank you so much
for joining us. God bless. We'll

talk to you soon. Bye, bye. You.