Chris: Hey everybody, welcome to
the ordinary discipleship

podcast. My name is Chris, here
with Jacob and, of course,

Jesse. And today we're talking
about how people sometimes they

feel insecure about connecting
with God, and sometimes, as

leaders, we try to force the way
that we connect with God into

the way that they should connect
with God, and then when they

don't connect with God the same
way we connect with God,

sometimes that can develop
shame. So how, as a

discipleship, mentor, as a
leader, as a pastor, how do we

not create pathways to shame,
but pathways to God,

Jacob: the like, unspoken part
of what you're getting at that,

I think we're trying to get out
in this episode, is there's so

many people who are like, I
don't know how to connect with

God. You just tell me Pastor
exactly, and then pastor says,

uh, cool, yeah, I'll just tell
you how I connect with God and

make that normative, right,
right? Everybody look like me,

right? That's the easiest thing,
but that's not really equipping

people to connect with God.
That's just making little and,

yeah. And so the way that we
actually, in my congregation, we

use a tool, like a like a batch
of content I got years ago, and

I keep always trying to look for
who to attribute this to. I

heard it from a guy named Ron
walborn, but I know he didn't

come up with it. He got it from
somebody else, but it's, it's

called,

Jessie Cruickshank: you know who
this comes from? Please email us

and let us know. Yes,

Chris: Justin got so close to
the mic on that it was

terrifying.

Jacob: It's six spiritual
pathways. So it's six different

instincts for how people connect
with God, and so they are, the

esthetic instinct, where people
connect through beauty and

order, the experiential
instinct, where people connect

through experience and emotion.
The activist instinct, people

who connect with God through
through doing things and feeling

like they're serving God, the
contemplative instinct, where

people connect with God through
listening and the interior. The

student instinct, where people
connect with God through truth

and study, and the relational
instinct, where people connect

through relationship and love.
They connect with God when

they're with other people. And
so one of the first things we do

is we orient people to this
content, to say, hey, there's

not only one way to connect with
God, and maybe. And the first

thing we point out when we when
we do this teaching, is like you

may have been in communities
before, where they said there

was one way to connect with God,
or they promoted one way to

connect with God. And that can
do a couple of things. One, it

can cause you to question
yourself and say, What's wrong

with me? That God's not
connecting with me? Or it can

cause you to question God and
say, maybe God has gone silent.

This is why, this is one of the
first things we do as we're

starting to walk with people on
a journey of discipleship, is

say, hey, let's help you reflect
on what's what's the easiest way

for you to connect with God, and
how can we equip you to do that?

So what are you I would say that
I tend toward the contemplative

instinct and maybe the student
instinct. I mean, look at all

those. Because I like
understanding, but I'm not like

a big, quiet time guy. That's
not what. So that's what you

would think like, not like a big
discipline guy, but unlocking

he's looking at me funny, like,
I don't wake up every morning at

5am and read my Bible. That's
not what I do. Wait, wait, what?

Yeah, that's right. See, that's
not God, bad things. Bad things.

Yeah.

Chris: Jesse, what are you on
this list? What do you think you

are,

Jessie Cruickshank: I would be
esthetic and experiential. So I

when the world gets noisy and
the voices in my head get loud,

and I cannot tell the difference
between my soul the enemy and

God, because, because it just
happens sometimes and I get

swirly, I need to go out in
nature and let the the truth of

nature, because scripture says
that nature is God's first

message to us. It's his first
it's they call it first

revelation. And so I can go out
there and just breathe and let

God find me and calm me down and
recalibrate me. And I talk to

God while I'm gardening. I talk
to God while I'm hiking. I can

hear him most clearly in those
in those places, because, for

whatever reason, maybe it's my
ADD, but it calms the rest of

the noise down, and his voices,
or his presence is what remains

for me. So, and then the
experiential I love joy. I love

encountering silliness. I think
God is super silly. I think

there's, like, I don't think the
enemy can be silly. I don't

think the enemy's got a sense of
humor and can't tell a joke. So,

like, okay, so. Joy is also one
of those pure things for me, so

probably those two. So

Chris: when Jake's dad started
the church, the amazing Paul

Hoyer started the church in Lake
Mary. He had a group of guys

that are not your typical, like
church people. It reminded me of

like when Jesus came down and he
got to his disciples, and he

went to the fishermen, and then
he went to the tax collectors.

And it's like, if I had my dream
team, it probably wouldn't be

fishermen and tax collectors.
And you could pick anybody on

planet Earth, and you pick these
guys. I mean, they probably had

salty language, they probably
had a few beers, and

Jessie Cruickshank: they had not
been they weren't following

another rabbi, so they hadn't
been accepted into a

discipleship program exactly.

Chris: And he came down, and
he's like, this is your dream

team. This is who's gonna spread
Christianity to the entire

world, okay? And that's kind of
what his dad did. Like his dad

was 100% activist, and he would
just like, go find widows that

needed a new roof. And then he
would get all these blue collar

guys together and say, Hey, you
want to go build a roof for this

lady is about to be evicted. And
they would all do it. And it was

like the pied piper leading all
these people and, and, and like,

20 years later, they're still at
the church, even after, uh,

Jake's dad passed away because
of the legacy and the activist

mentality that Paul built in
that place, and so let's say

you're the you're the activist,
or you're the contemplative, or

you're the student. You can get
those people that are like

minded, and you can evangelize
them pretty quickly. But Is it

tough for somebody who, let's
say, is an activist to disciple

somebody who's in another
category?

Jessie Cruickshank: That is a
great question. Thank you. I

think if you're going to
disciple somebody, it's likely

that they're different than you,
and you need to understand that

the goal isn't that they connect
to God the way that you do, but

that you're encouraging them to
connect to God, gotcha like and

find that. Find that right, just
like you know, as a parent you

are, you don't necessarily want
your kid to do the same job that

you do, but you want them to do
the job that they find

fulfilling, that they the
vocation that they are

interested in. Maybe that's the
same as you but maybe it's

something totally different. And
I think the worst thing we can

do as a disciple maker is that
if we don't understand, and we

can't actually resonate with how
they connect with God, like the

thing you don't do is shut that
down, right? Shut them down.

Tell them, Oh no, that's not
legitimate, because you may not

understand, and you can say
that, like, wow, I don't

actually connect with God that
way. Tell me more about that.

Oh, and learn from them what
that's like. And then you can,

like, share, oh, this is how it
feels for me. This is the

thoughts that go through my
head. These are the feels that I

have. Here's what my experience
is like. Tell me about your

experience, and you can learn
from them, theirs and like,

like, that's a beautiful thing.
You're both shaping each other

and learning from each other in
that. Because maybe as I look at

this list, I kind of have
different seasons. Yeah, there

are times where God has moved
and I need to go find him in a

new way. And so contemplative is
way more part of my life than it

used to be and, and I'm like,
Oh, wait, I can actually sit

still and abide, Oh, that's
good. That's nice. I couldn't do

that for decades. Oh, that's
good. And if I hadn't hung out

with people who connected with
God that way, and they, and I,

like, learned from them, I
would, I would think either I'd

done something wrong or I
wouldn't know how to do that,

like we go through seasons. So I
would hope that at some point I

would, I would have an
experience of God in each one of

those, even if it's not my
primary, even it's not my

default, even if it just
happened by miracle one time,

but I don't know, appreciation
for the the way God meets us is

is an important aspect of being
a disciple maker.

Chris: So Jacob, not everybody
is like aware of what they are.

How do you you said in your
church, you actually use this

program to help them to figure
out how they connect with God.

Like, can you talk a little bit
about that process? What do you

do? Ask questions. How do you
how do you help somebody figure

out, like, where they're

Jacob: at? So we just use this
in a workbook in our like,

opening course. And we, we
actually, you can kind of think

of it like, if you're if you're
familiar with the popular

paradigm of love languages, you
just reflect on your past

experience and say, I'll also
ask people like, when has there

been a mountaintop moment in
your life, like, when's the time

you felt most connected to God?
What was happening, and was

there any Was there ever a time
in your life when you felt like

a spiritual misfit, where. You
felt like you were the turtle in

the punch bowl of the faith
community, you know? And so that

allows people to reflect on it.
And what I even get from people

more than oh my gosh, I have a I
know clearly who I am in this

schematic, what I hear them say
is like they're just encouraged

to know that there are different
ways and that there's not just

one way in this class, this
opening class, we do. I've

gotten run it twice in the last
12 months because we've had a

lot of new people showing up.
And there was a guy recently in

one of the classes who said, you
know, I've been through a lot of

these, like new member classes
in churches. And he said,

usually they're about trying to
figure out how I plug into the

church. He's like, what I like
about this is it's actually

about helping me figure out how
I'm gonna live my life shaped by

Jesus. And that's like, I think,
to your question of like, can

you disciple somebody who's
different than you? I think you

can, if you understand that
discipleship is helping them

become themselves, if you think
discipleship is making them look

like what discipleship means to
you? Well then, yeah, it's going

to be tough.

Chris: No, that's a great point,
and it's about helping them to

discover who they are and how
they connect with Jesus and and

not fitting them into some
cookie cutter program.

Jessie Cruickshank: So Chris,
can I? Can I jump on one of my

little soap boxes right now? I
would love it like

Chris: because let's pour out
the soapbox for a second. Jesse,

all season has not jumped on it
yet, and so it's a nice soapbox.

And let's go. Here we go. Here
it is. It's set up.

Jessie Cruickshank: So one of
the things that can make me

crazy and upset is when I hear
someone either a discipleship

per a disciple maker or a
mentor, someone tell another

person you can't trust your
heart in it. And that comes up,

right? So, so somebody hears,
oh, they feel this way. Or, you

know, hey, my, my, my heart told
me to do this. My heart told me

to be here. My heart told me to
say something to that person, or

give them money to the the
person on the street, like,

like, they they their heart told
them something, and they

responded to it, and someone
else says to them, oh, you can't

trust your heart. Like, like,
boom, force field, your heart is

I was raised in a church. They
said your heart is deceptive.

They would quote, your heart is
wicked above all things, you

know, and that's a that's a
verse in Old Testament, and and

that stuff makes me crazy,
because here's here's the other

part of that, like whole
paradigm. Truth is that God

loves your heart. God made your
heart. God thinks your heart is

great, and he wants to restore
it where it's broken. He wants

to heal it where it's wounded.
He wants to refine it where it

believes a lie. But that doesn't
mean your heart is bad. And I

remember like the season of my
life, because I grew up in this

fundamentalist church that shut
down all emotion and heart and

everything like they it was a
Cessationist church. We got

kicked out. It didn't go well.
We didn't we didn't abide with

that very well my whole family,
and because I had had this

practice of, oh, my heart says
that I can't listen to it, and I

would shove it in the corner.
And we do this with our

emotions, right? We're like, oh,
you can't trust your emotions.

They lie to you. And that's not
that's equally untrue. What your

heart says and what your
emotions say are information for

you. They're They're your
they're yourself talking to you,

or God, talking to you. It just
may be incomplete. It may not be

the whole picture, right? But it
the answer to that is, is to

listen to it and bring it before
the Lord. The answer to that

isn't to shove it in the corner
and tell it to shut up, right?

That's how we end up in therapy,
because that is not honoring

ourselves or honoring, you know,
the way that that God made us,

and God's a lover of our soul.
So when we tell people to shut

down their heart, we are we are
severing a major line that God

can talk to them and they can
receive from God. And if that's

their primary line, the way that
God made them, then you just cut

them off from being able to hear
God, and you put them in like

solitary confinement. So instead
of doing that to one another, we

need to encourage them, have
them voice. What is their heart

saying? Let's talk about that.
Let's bring that into the light.

Let's see if there's anything
else to like add to that to make

it more complete, more whole,
more healed. But we need to

encourage people to listen to
how God is talking to them, even

if it's in mixture, even if it's
like, not totally accurate, you

know, even if it's not totally
pure, we got to encourage that,

to make it healthier, not shut
it down, because, you know,

there might be taintedness in
it, like it's, oh, it's past the

expiration date. And so, you
know, we got to throw out the

milk, because it might have
some. Sourness in it, like,

like, that's not how we're
supposed to treat our heart or

soul, because then we won't hear
from God and it'll shut us down.

I just

Chris: had to do that this
morning. My wife pulled the milk

out of the fridge, and it was
two days past the expiration,

but I opened it up and it kind
of still smelled good. And she

said, Do you really want to
gamble for $4 I'm like, so I

poured it down the sink. Just
poured it right down. No.

Jessie Cruickshank: See, here's
the interesting thing. Is that

when milk is bad, it smells bad.
That's what I thought. The date

doesn't make it bad

Chris: the culture, that's what
I felt like. And if it's bad,

doesn't, it just

Unknown: so, doesn't. If it
don't stink, it's okay.

Chris: And if it stinks, doesn't
it just become cottage cheese

and you eat it. Is that not
right? I don't know. All right,

okay, well, I think that's as
good a place as any. To maybe

wrap this one up, we went a
little long last time. Went a

little short this time. But
here's the thing, this is a free

podcast, so you got your money's
worth. I'll tell you that right

now. Thank you guys for joining
us for the ordinary discipleship

podcast. It's been a joy and a
pleasure. Make sure that if you

enjoyed this episode, that you
like it, and you could review it

for us, and then other people
will find it. And there's like,

I think they said there's like
22 million podcasts out there.

So help us rise to the top,
please. And Jesse Jacob, if they

want to learn more about what
you guys are doing for the

kingdom of God. How can somebody
find that out? You can

Jessie Cruickshank: always find
out what we're up to@hoology.co

that's W, H, O, o, l, o, G,
y.co. We got trainings for teams

on how to deal with this stuff,
how to encourage people to be a

disciple maker. We got disciple
maker training as a Bible study

that you can watch a video
series with a downloadable

workbook. You can get that from
the website. So just different

things, we're here to help equip
you.

Chris: Thanks guys, and thank
you guys for joining us on the

ordinary discipleship podcast.
God bless. We'll see you next

time bye, bye. You.