Chris: Hey everybody, welcome to
the ordinary discipleship

podcast. My name is Chris. I'm
here with Jacob and the one of

two, Jesse right over there.
She's one of two, and we talked

about that last episode, or
maybe the episode in the future.

It doesn't matter, but here's
what we're talking about today.

Sometimes relationships are
messy. They are messy. They're

one of the toughest things we
have to navigate in this world,

and everyone wants to do it
right when it comes to

relationships, when it comes to
discipleship. But you know what

community forums in hard
conversations, and if you're one

of those folks at home that
avoids those hard conversations.

Maybe this is the talk for you.
Maybe this is it, because Jake

put in the notes, life grows in
the fertilizer. Wow, Jakey,

Jacob: I'll actually say I typed
it into the notes, but Jesse

said it. Jesse said Life grows
in fertilizer. Use that sort of

crass analogy that is

Unknown: so Crats.

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, I
don't know if I use the word

fertilizer,

Unknown: guys, it's right here.
Look at that note that might

have she was even sanitizing,

Chris: sanitizing it for her.
Oh, I see what you're saying. So

what you did was what it got us
kicked off this network. Okay,

thanks, Jake for saving our
podcast careers.

Jessie Cruickshank: But Jake
edits me when I do speech to

text, Google edits me. Yeah,
it's okay. You know what? It's

part of that community aspect
that helps me be a better person

Chris: if Jacob Hoyer wasn't on
planet Earth, there's no way I

get through seminary. That's all
I'm saying. And this man helped

me through most of my four
years. Okay, to do it together,

you know? Yeah, together. I
think I gave you one hint in

four years. Okay? So life grows
in community. Sometimes conflict

is necessary. Jake loves
himself, a good conflict, a

healthy conflict. I know this
about Jake, Jesse, I'm not so

sure about you, but

Jessie Cruickshank: roller derby
and trained. MMA, what do you

think

Chris: Jesse loves? A good
conflict? Yeah, wait is, let's

just pause for a second. Is
roller derby like the WWE? Is it

like scripted out,

Jessie Cruickshank: no, no. And
when I did it like you did,

have, like, face paint names,
maybe a little bit of dressing

up, and they have since eroded
that expression of your soul out

of the game, and now it's like
professional and stuff, which is

really sad, because it's nice to
have an alter ego for a little

while, especially while you're
hitting people. It's just kind

of

Chris: fun. I like that. This
isn't a video podcast, but as

soon as I asked that question,
Jacob's face was so disgusted,

like I was asking if the NFL
was, like, fake, you know, like

he was like, No, it's not fake.
Like he's like, were you a

roller derby coach at some point
or something? I'm sorry to

offend you. The rules are
fascinating. The rules of ruler

roller derby are pretty
fascinating. It's just about how

many times you can lap the other
team, right? It'd be really hard

to script it. That's all. I just
remember watching roller derby

on WGN, and it seemed like the
WWE like, it seemed like there

was really big fake elbows. And
anyway, we're getting off track,

and we're already through three
minutes in Okay, Jesse, you want

to take this do you want to talk
about conflict? Do you want to

talk about discipleship? Do you
want to talk about messiness?

You want to talk about this
stuff?

Jessie Cruickshank: What if your
faith community was a roller

derby team? Like, like, like,
let's, let's unpack that

storyline. I like that. We know.
You know what being in action

sports taught me was that that
conflict is is not a bad thing,

and it taught me how to how to
handle that, like, how to be

resilient enough to see, oh,
actually, the drills that we do

where we hit each other in
practice make us better out, you

know, out on the field, out out,
playing out when you have a

bout, and I think about, you
Know, all the ways that we have

aversion to conflict, and then
how, in that environment, in a

roller derby team, conflict,
hitting each other is good and

it's helpful. And then, like I
did, I did that while I was on

on staff at a church at the same
time, right? So I was like the

roller derby pastor, and then I
would go to the church

environment. And conflict is so
bad because I was the senior

pastor that I was under was
like, he wasn't just conflict

averse, like, I'm pretty sure if
conflict happened, he would go

into immediate like, hives,
freeze, he was, he was epically

allergic to it, and it was. Just
the two different environments

were so were such a contrast in
I was like, Well, how, how do we

help the faith community embrace
conflict in a healthy way, not

in a smash your face in or hit
each other while you're on

roller skates kind of way, but
like a healthy way that leads to

life and not this avoiding of
conflict, which actually leads

to death. It leads to people
leaving. It leads to harm, miss,

you know, all these things go
unaddressed. And, you know,

minor things can happen to
really bad things can happen. So

I mean, to think about conflict,

Chris: yeah, it's, it's
interesting. You say that when I

was a freshman at the University
of Iowa, my roommate was an

amateur boxer and became a pro
boxer, moved out to California,

was like the next great Irish
hype, and he was like, four and

O, and then he moves out there
and he gets knocked out in like

15 seconds, and they dropped
him. But the crazy thing was,

like, when he was training one
time in Iowa City, I was his

manager because he didn't have
any money, so I just was, like,

the little guy in the corner,
like, rooting for him. And he

keeps getting punched in the
face, punched in the face,

punched in the face. I'm like,
this crazy. I can't believe he's

taking this and he goes. The key
thing about a boxer is when you

get punched in the face, is not
to go into fight or flight, like

to control your emotions at the
time. Yep, where you are at the

most vulnerable. And I always
remember that, like, I never

really got into any fights, but
I kind of,

Jessie Cruickshank: I tried.
MMA, I was, I was gonna, I was

gonna, I've fought. No, I was
going to do a formal fight, but

I got into grad school instead.
So

Chris: should I get trained?
Should I fight MMA, UCF or go to

Harvard? What should I do?

Jessie Cruickshank: But he's
right, like, how you handle that

moment of impact, of
powerlessness, of something

happened to me that I didn't
like, and like how you handle

that moment is extremely
shaping.

Chris: Yeah, I think Jake's got
a story for us here.

Jacob: Well, actually, what I
was thinking it was like, one of

the books I recommend the most
is, is called Death by meeting,

and it's about how to how to run
good meetings. And Patrick

lenzioni Is the author, and the
point he makes in the book is,

he's like, you know, the average
staff meeting in a business or a

church lasts a couple of hours,
and most people dread a couple

hour meeting. He's like, but
we'll go voluntarily sit through

a movie that's 90 minutes to two
hours and enjoy ourselves. True.

He's like, Well, what's the
difference? The difference is

that the difference is, well,
this is why I'm being stuck. The

difference is that the film is
anchored around an organized is

organized around an anchoring
conflict, whereas the meeting

usually has none, and so we're
bored to tears because there's

no, there's no there's no thread
to follow. But in the film,

you've got a thread that's
anchored in the conflict.

Jessie Cruickshank: Wait a
minute, Jacob, are you saying

that in my next church staff
meeting, I need to create

conflict in order to have a
hero's journey 100% for myself.

So I'm not bored to death.

Jacob: It's exactly the thing
create conflict. But mine out

the conflict that's already
there as it's appropriate to the

meetings context. So in death,
by meeting, he ends up talking

about different kinds of
meetings. Some are more like a

like an episodic television
episode. Others are like a film,

right? But, but that's to the
point of like the productivity

comes through the wrestling, and
that's the story I was telling

earlier. Is, like in our church
right now, we're undergoing some

change. We're exploring a
denominational shift, and so

like among our leadership team,
we're having some conversations

around, like, some doctrinal
questions that are causing some

hesitations for people. And
there's one person I've been

able to talk with a couple of
times offline, and she's had

some like, we've processed
through her struggles. Then I

saw her recently, and she was
saying, Hey, I just wanted you

to know I'm in a peaceful place
now. I'm at peace with where,

where I'm at, and where the
church is at, and everything's

good. I'm so sorry that it took
me so long, and I said to her,

Don't apologize. I feel like us
having those conversations is

community at work, like us being
people who trust each other, who

can have a conversation that
feels risky, so that we each can

grow into what's next. That's
what community is for and like.

So just like a productive
meeting has conflict at its

center, a productive community
is able to engage and move

through conflict.

Chris: I still like I'm sorry
that was really good. I still

want to pay my worship director
20 bucks to be the heel. In the

next meeting, and then maybe
take a steel chair to him, and

then everybody's like, what's
going on? All right? I'm done.

WWE Exactly. I'll see

Jessie Cruickshank: myself.
Unfortunately, Chris, there are

probably some church
environments that are actually

like that. So when it comes to
these conversations about

conflict, what I think that I
like to remember is that we

often think that all conflict
comes from sin, right? All

conflict is a part of the fall,
and that, you know, so it means

that somebody's done something
wrong. And so we even spend a

lot of time in the conflict
looking for who to blame, you

know, Oh, you did this wrong.
You need to change. This is what

you need to be different, like,
like we we think it arises

because somebody screwed up. And
what I like to remember is that

we don't need sin to have
conflict. All we need are two

different humans having two
different experiences. So you

can have a culture difference
and have conflict. You can have

a marriage and have
miscommunication and have

conflict. I know you guys
probably never experienced that,

but I do, because my husband
isn't a very clear communicator

sometimes, and so he but so we
don't actually have to have done

something nefarious. Have ill,
you know, ill intent in our

heart. We can just be living our
life in a different body, and we

will have conflict. So that, to
me, says that conflict isn't a

result of the fall. Because, I
mean, look, do you think Adam

and Eve agreed on everything
they named those animals? Don't

you think that there was some
conversation

Chris: there? Antelope? Yeah,
no, it's problem.

Jessie Cruickshank: Pronghorn.
Honey, pronghorn. So you get so

you just have it, which means,
to me, it's part of the design,

like there is messiness in the
design, and God said it was

good. So then my question is,
wait, what? Why? Why is that

God's good and perfect will that
we would have this messiness? So

Chris: okay, I have a question.
So conflict is necessary and

it's gonna happen, right? But
then, how do you do it? Well, so

you don't end up like, hating
each other and walking away and

being like, forget that guy. I'm
not gonna talk to him ever

again.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, how do
you do it in your marriage?

Well, I don't Okay. So I've been
married 21 years like I got. I'm

the oldest one.

Chris: No, I've been married 21
years too. I've been married

Jessie Cruickshank: 21 years.
Then you go, you go, how do you

guys figure it out?

Chris: No, it's a work in
progress, like trying not to for

me, the turning point for me was
not trying to win arguments

like, I think for the first 10
years, I was trying to win every

argument. I think I was trying
to, like, prove my case like I

was in a court of law, and
laying out the case and and

doing that. And now it's not so
much about winning, it's about

being respectful and trying to
come to a resolution. I That's

the best I can say it. I think,

Jessie Cruickshank: no, that's
super good, right? Because I

like you, I was a debater, yes,
and I wanted to win because I

was right and wasn't the
resolution that we agreed with

me because I was right. Like,
yeah, oh, well, God bless my

husband. He's so patient. And
what we do now in when we

realize we're miscommunicating,
we don't have kids, so all we

have is communication. So we've
been working on communication

intentionally for a long, long,
long time. And what we do now

and when we realize we're
miscommunicating is we stop. We

go, wait, wait. You. You reacted
in a way that is not what I

thought you would to what I just
said. So I'm gonna guess we just

miscommunicated. What did you
think I just expressed? And then

we, you know, say that and like,
okay, not what I either

literally not what I said. Those
were not the words that came out

of my mouth, or that was not my
intent. Goes, Oh, by the way,

we're getting older, and now
hearing issues start to come

into, like, the whole play.
Like, I just don't see how we

figured this out. So we, like,
get over it. The better we get

at it, the more deaf and like
absent minded we get. It's going

to be amazing, you guys. So we
stop check the words, check the

intent, so that we can get into
the same page about what really

happened, and then we can talk
about that. So if the intent was

not so amazing, because I was in
he was in a mood. I was in a

mood. You said a thing and a
tone, and then we can check them

like, okay, yeah, I said it
grumpily. Yes, I'm in a bad

mood, or I was thinking about
this other thing, right? We

Claire, we get on the same page,
and we clarify. So then the

messiness actually helps. Bring
clarity, because we're

partnering together to get on
the same page. And to me, that's

like the Unity thing that Jesus
prays in in John,

Jacob: yeah, and I think, like
the thing that you both were

talking about was about how in a
conflict situation to remember

that the other person is not the
enemy, but is the teammate,

right? And so it's like, how do
we end up standing shoulder to

shoulder instead of head to
head? And like, in the way that

Jesse described that even you
can hear that that requires a

change of posture, on, on, let's
say my part, and, and what's

happening there is, and it
requires a change of heart. And

so that's actually that starts
to get at what we're saying,

kind of as the thesis here,
which is, it's that process that

change, like it's that process
of saying, Where is my

perspective off, where is where
is my posture off, that allows

me to be changed. And that's
discipleship, being changed by

Jesus is discipleship. And so
when I approach a relational

issue and I have to change to
stay on the same team as the

other person, that's
discipleship. And so that's

where we're saying like
messiness is in the design.

We're designed to rub up against
each other in a in a difficult

way. We're designed to to knock
on each other in a difficult

way, and that creates the kind
of change that God can work in

our lives,

Jessie Cruickshank: like, let
me, let me give you a biblical

example. This is one of my
favorites. So in Ephesians four,

in Ephesians 412, it lists a
five fold ministry, right? So

it's apostle, prophet,
evangelist, Shepherd, teacher,

and when, and I've done a lot of
work in here, and co authored

books on this, and build a
company around this, and like, I

love this stuff, and what's
crazy about it is that there is

conflict in the design. So let
me give you example. So if

people you know, maybe you're
more apostolically leaning, and

that the heart of an apostle,
the motivation of that is to

send people out and to multiply
and to create these networks in

like, you know, it's, it's this
amazing architectural pioneering

kind of impulse. And on the
other end of the spectrum of

that, not in in one way, is the
shepherding impulse. And the

shepherding impulse is to gather
all everyone together, because

the shepherd wants all the
Sheepies in the pen. And so the

apostolic is, like, we got to
send everybody out, and the

shepherd's like, we got to keep
all the sheep in the pen. How do

I know they're okay if I'm not
watching over them? And it's

like, it's terribly distressing
to send them on a subway ride

all by themselves through New
York, right? So these and yet,

in Ephesians four, it says that
they're supposed to work

together. And so God puts these
inherent conflicting values into

the design of the gifts that
Jesus gives the church for the

sake of maturity. And it's the
conflict. So there's conflict so

there's conflict between the
evangelist and the Prophet, or

the shepherd and the Prophet,
the evangelist and the Prophet,

the evangelist and the teacher,
the teacher and the apostle.

Like there is conflict between
all of these together. That is

how we get full and complete and
lacking nothing. And the way we

get to that is by figuring out
how to work together with the

inherent conflict that's there.
So we're not mature just because

I'm self actualized. We get to
maturity because I figure out

how to work with you when I
don't agree with you.

Jacob: Yeah, I have like, a,
like, a specific example about

that five fold conflict, because
in my early 20s, I was on a

mission team, and I feel like
I've told this story in a past

episode in a previous season. So
if you're like somebody who's

like a big, ordinary
discipleship podcast fan person,

and you and I'm redundant, I
apologize, but we were in

Slovakia as a mission team. This
was during a trip where we were

in 11 countries and 11 countries
in 11 months. So we'd spend

about three weeks in a country.
So we would partner with a local

missionary and serve their
ministry well. One time we were

in Slovakia, our team of seven
was out just like for a like a

day off, and we were in a train
station and we saw a poster for

a Marilyn Manson concert that
was happening in Bratislava,

Slovakia. And at the time in my
life, I was, I was high

shepherding So, like I was
really about peace and harmony.

On the team that was like my
motivator as a high shepherding

gift. And there was another
person on our team who was high,

like prophetic, apostolic and so
she sees this Marilyn Manson

poster, and goes, we should go
to that concert and pray for

people outside the stadium. And
I was like, in my mind, I'm

like, what does that like? Where
did that idea come from? Why

would we do that? This doesn't
seem a good idea. We're just

gonna make people angry, and it
could. Created a conflict in our

team, because she was adamant,
this is what we had to do. And I

was like, I was so confused,
because I thought this is only

going to just create, like,
unease and difficulty and and so

we worked through it as a team.
And what happened was, like,

four, five of the people went to
the thing to pray for people

outside the concert. Two or
three of us stayed back to

intercede in prayer, which is
not even my thing, but at least

I could say I was being
supportive in that year where I

was high shepherding, and I was
with this teammate who was high,

apostolic, prophetic. There were
lots of things like that, where

she was just moving really fast,
operating on intuition, and I

wanted it to make sense and to
bring harmony and in, in, in

figuring out how to work
together. We both, we both had

to grow and change.

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, this
is the real life stuff, right?

So we're, we're a real talk
podcast. We're real talk people

and and that's because I just
love, I just love that when you

talk about the messiness these
kinds of stories come up,

because that is the substance of
life. That is the substance of

following God with one another.
And I don't know, maybe it's

that part of me that really
enjoyed roller derby and hitting

people like I like to see a
little bit of the stirring of

the pot, because I want to see
people grow. I don't want to see

people get hurt. So, you know, I
wanted to have, like, like I was

a rock climber, be roped up,
right, take risk, but also tie

into the rope so nobody gets
hurt. And I like to see

communities being brave enough
to engage in that. And if we can

change the narrative that
conflict isn't a bad sign, it's

a good sign, if we know how to
handle it and we can Shepherd it

well, and we can help each other
work all the way to the end,

which is getting back on the
same page. Then we can, we can

actually have an environment
where people can follow Jesus,

grow and learn and thrive.

Chris: Oh, look at us. Look at
us. The end of it is this

episode. What we've discovered
today is that conflict not is

not necessarily a bad thing. We
can have a little conflict if we

do it the right way. So Jesse
Jacob, thank you. If you've

enjoyed this podcast, we would
love it. If you would subscribe,

if you would like, if you would
share and rate us and review us

so other people can hear about
how to fight cleanly and how to

win in roller derby and how to
almost start your MMA career.

Jesse, life lessons here. Jesse,
if they want to learn more about

what you and Jacob are doing for
the kingdom of God, how can they

learn that?

Jessie Cruickshank: Can always
go to hoology.co. That's W, H,

O, o, l, o, G, y.co, we do
webinars. We got an discipleship

class you can use in your small
group, and it'll just help

provide some of the skills so we
can do this all together.

Chris: Awesome. That is
fantastic, guys. Thanks so much

for joining us. We will see you
on the next episode of ordinary

discipleship podcast. God bless.
See ya.