Chris: Welcome to another
glorious episode of ordinary

discipleship podcast. My name is
Chris. I'm here with Jacob and

the one and only Jesse, and
today I have a question for you

too. Let me wait a

Jessie Cruickshank: second. Wait
a second. I know we're gonna get

into this, but you say that, but
here's Chris. I have to break

your heart. I am not the only
Jesse Cruikshank out there.

There is another Jesse
Cruickshank out there. She's a

Canadian TV personality. I'm
just saying there's one more, is

there really? And she has

Jacob: red hair, so not the one,
and only just one of two. Okay,

I'm I'm not.

Chris: Let's retake this. Um,
I'm okay. That's Jacob and one

of two Jesse crookshank right
here on the ordinary disciple

podcast. They both have red
hair. I bet Jesse has more

degrees anyway. I mean, come on,
there's no way the TV girl's got

more degrees than you Jesse,
let's be honest. Anyway, I'm

wondering today if people can
change you know, they say you

can't teach an old dog new
tricks? Can you change a human

being through discipleship? That
is the question today. That's

where we're going to start. And
Jacob wrote something in my

notes. He said, everybody thinks
that healing comes first, but

really it starts with greater
brokenness. That sounds ominous,

Jacob, that doesn't mean you
need to break people or be a

jerk, but just that more
brokenness comes before healing.

Yikes. That sounds intimidating.
Jacob, what do you mean by that?

Why did you just send me?

Jacob: We say that discipleship
is being changed by Jesus. Okay,

for most people, change is hard.
So like, if you're going to move

from brokenness to wholeness,
that's healing, there's going to

be some change along the way
that really is going to look and

feel like more brokenness. And
that sounds intimidating. We

break in the leg to reset it,
you know? Like,

Chris: yeah, nobody wants that.
I don't want to re break my leg

Jessie Cruickshank: when you
think about change, like, like,

can we actually help people
change? My immediate gut

instinct was to say, Well, no,
that only God can help somebody

change. Okay, and I got a like,
Sunday school answery right up

in my head, because, because,
from what we know about the

brain, the brain doesn't change
easily. It's, they say it's

plastic, it's malleable. But
we're talking about, like, an

identity change. We're talking
about, I once was this, but now

I'm that. I once was lost, but
now I'm found. I once was far

from God, but now I'm close to
God. That kind of change is a

literal mirror of change. Means
you're like, like, who you are.

As a human, on a biological
level, has to get rewired. It

has to get like, decent, broken
apart and recreated. And that

takes a miracle. And so
repentance, change of mind,

which is, which is repentance?
The word we translate in the

repentance is metanoia. And
metanoia, in the Greek, means

change of mind. I once was going
left, and now I'm going right,

or I once was going, Yeah, I
once was lost, and now I'm

found. Like that kind of change
is a literal miracle, and we've

just created a lot of processes
to try to circumvent the

miracle, because we don't trust
that's going to happen. But I

have seen God do it in so many
people's lives. They have these

aha moments. I keep some of
these. I am statements from

these retreats that I do. I keep
some of these around. And hers

was, I once was a mistake
because she was, uh, she and she

was put up for adoption as a as
an infant. So she's like, I once

was a mistake, but now I'm a
miracle. And that kind of

identity change, like I said, I
see it all the time, all the

time, and it helps me have hope
and faith that, oh yeah, God

actually does hold up his end of
the job. The Holy Spirit does

actually recreate us and help
us. But I think I've just been

in so many places, in so many
environments, where people don't

know that change is possible,
they've lost hope that change is

possible, or maybe they didn't
even believe about it in the in

the first place. So they create
a lot of programs and

workarounds because they don't
actually know what could happen

and they don't trust it.

Chris: So that's interesting.
You a couple statements you just

made, and I'm writing them down
this time, I'm really taking

diligent notes. You said that
people have lost hope that

change was possible. But then
earlier in that, you said that

true repentance, real
repentance, can actually lead to

change. Can you unpack that a
little bit? How does real

repentance actually lead to
change?

Jessie Cruickshank: So for me,
real repentance is it's a

letting go. It's a it's a
baptism. It's a death. It's a

death to what you thought you
knew, what you thought you about

yourself, or the way that you
were living in life. It's a

you're you're letting go, and
you're like, oh my gosh, God, I

can't I don't know. I'm not. You
be in charge. Hmm, right? So

we're so so remember that when,
when Paul is writing most of the

New Testament, people didn't
pray, or pray a prayer of

salvation, and like, poof,
everything's different and

better, right? That's only
something we've had for 150

years. So for 900 years, that's
not or 1900 years, 1900 years.

That's not been part of the
Christian like paradigm. What it

was when Paul was writing, there
is Lord. I give my life to you

like like I commit to that
you're my Lord. And then out of

that, God teaches us and
recreates us. So for me,

repentance is a yielding of
authority, authorship of my own

life, and sometimes I can only
do that in like one little

storyline. And I'm saying, God,
you're your Lord, your author of

this part of me and my life and
my story. And so it's it's

actually not a thing we do. It's
a thing that we let go, and God

does.

Chris: So basically, you're
saying you agree with Carrie

Underwood, Jesus take the wheel.
That's what you're saying at

this point.

Jacob: Well, that's, that's
actually right? Yes, that that

Jesus take the wheel, right? Is
the moment of repentance. What I

was thinking is Jesse was
talking was like, This is why we

say that change requires further
brokenness. Because the point at

which I took over the wheel and
said, Jesus, get out of the way,

something happened that caused
me to think that was necessary.

I experienced pain or difficulty
in some way that caused me to

think I need to take the wheel.
And so the process of saying,

Jesus, take the will. I have to
go back to that moment, re

experience the pain and allow
Jesus to be the answer for it.

So another example would be
like, let's say I'm an angry

person, and I learned at some
point in my life that the way to

keep myself safe, was to just,
was to get angry all the time.

So now, though I'm a slave to
anger, if I want to be a slave

to Jesus, or if, if I want to
relent to Jesus's desire to be

Lord of my life, I'm going to
have to give up my master of

anger in order to do that. I'm
going to have to, I'm going to

have to go back to that moment
when I allowed anger to take

over and repent of that and say,
Jesus, take the wheel and and

that's what healing looks like.
And so that's why we say that

healing requires more
brokenness, because you'll

actually re experience the
brokenness you experienced

before on the way to healing.

Chris: And that actually is what
sucks when you go to a new

therapist for the first time,
because it feels like such

drudgery that you have to pull
up all like people are like,

how's the therapy going? I'm
like, it sucks the first three

sessions, because I'm digging up
all this stuff that I had buried

away for a long time. And
thought, like, okay, I can

navigate past this, but it's
hard. Like, it's really hard and

it's good, but I can definitely
relate as going back into

therapy that, like you do have
to experience more brokenness to

hopefully eventually grasp some
kind of healing. I

Jessie Cruickshank: just gotta
say, every time Jacob's like,

yes, Jesus, take the wheel.
Like, it's such an awkward

metaphor, I keep giggling. But I
don't have a better one. So

like, okay, I guess we can go
with that one, although it makes

me feel weird.

Chris: I know it's because
you're quoting Saint Carrie

Underwood at this point.

Jessie Cruickshank: And I just
like, I'm like, wait, he's he's

a he's the voice inside my
heart, in my head. I don't think

he's gonna steer the car. What I
really wanted to say is that,

because change is a miracle,
we've given up on the miracles,

I think, in a lot of our faith
communities, or we don't know

what to do there. We don't know
how to access that. And so we

actually just perpetuate coping
and we teach each other coping

mechanisms. And in the therapy
that I go to is it's a type of

psychotherapy, and what we do
like, what I yield to is God

unraveling my coping mechanisms.
He as at the pace that I can

handle. And sometimes I can
handle a bit, and sometimes I

cannot handle it very much. So
we got to go super, super slow.

But he is peeling back and
taking away my coping

mechanisms, because he's like,
Oh, you see this thing that you

do, like, that's actually not
the best thing that I have for

you, and you do it because of
this. So, so let's go back to

that moment. Let's go back to
that way that you learned how to

operate, and why don't you just
give that to me? And I'm like,

what I can't give it to you
like, this is how I make my life

work, and I don't know how to
make my life work without that.

So it's, it's extraordinarily
exposing and and difficult

because he's taking away all. My
things that work, or maybe I

think they work, and some of
them maybe actually work, but

he's taking them away, and now,
and I have to actually relearn

how to be with him in that, in
those situations, and let him

teach me what health looks like,
not what coping looks like. And

so at the bottom of that
recreation, like, it's a pit,

it's a suck, it's you're undone.
And I went through one this

summer, very significant one,
and it went back to some stuff

that happened when I was an
infant. And like, I would spend

one day a week, like a weekend,
just like crying on the couch,

like a two year old. I don't
even have words, and I'm just

like, ah, and I like, I told my
husband, I'm like, I'm sorry,

I'm such a baby. He's like, it's
okay. You gotta be here. I had

to go there in order to then be
recreated and learn. And now

they're not coping mechanisms.
I'm actually hearing from God

what he wants to do and what he
how he would create, how he

would create me in that place.
And it got so gross. You guys

taking my husband out for like,
dinner, I started buying in

presents. I'm like, like, I'm
just trying to make up for the

disaster that I was emotionally
like once a week. I'm not there

anymore. I'm probably about a
seven, eight year old in that

space now. But yeah, yeah, I
felt so guilty about what a mess

I was.

Jacob: You know, we were saying
earlier that most people don't

really want to change. They just
want to figure out how to cope

with their difficulty. And so
what that means is, like we've

talked already here, about being
able to go back to difficult

experiences so that they can be
redeemed. But I think what most

people this is how you get a
phrase like Time heals all

wounds. Because really, they're
not talking about healing,

they're just talking about
coping, coping, yeah, and so

over time, I can figure out how
to cope with all wounds, but

that doesn't actually heal all
wounds, right? And so, and then

where this intersects with
discipleship is when we think

that the good news of the gospel
is Jesus will help us cope with

our difficulty. No, no. The good
news of the Gospel is that Jesus

actually changes us from the
inside out. And so I think most

of us are saying, well, I don't
really want to change from the

inside out. Can you just fix my
circumstance? But that's not

actually how God works. I think
most people are saying that,

yes, absolutely, yes. That's
what they're saying. They're

going like, Hey, God, I don't
actually want to have to rework

my understand, re rework my
understanding of provision. I

just want you to give me a
raise.

Chris: I don't want to rework my
plastic brain. Just give me

more.

Jacob: That's right, that's
right. No, God, don't work on

me. Don't work on me, on
contentment. Just give me a

raise, change my circumstance,
not my heart. And what we're

saying is healing comes when
your heart gets changed, and

that's just harder.

Jessie Cruickshank: Hmm, yeah,
Jacob, I like one of the things

that you say. I have it written
down, because it's so good, is

that most people aren't actually
interested in change. They're

interested in just figuring out
how to get through life without

changing.

Chris: Yes, that's Amen, right?
Change is scary.

Jessie Cruickshank: It's so
good. It's so well said. And I

think

Jacob: what that means for us
is, like, when we're if we're in

a position of leadership in a
faith community, is that, like,

I think we can say, we can get
when we get frustrated, we say,

Why won't people just get
better? Or, like, I am tired of

having to deal with whatever,
whatever, whatever. But the fact

of the matter is that if, if
we're in the Jesus business,

we're in the healing business.
And if we're in the healing

business, we're in the
brokenness business. And so for

us to be able to cultivate
patience in the process means

allowing people to be broken
along the way.

Jessie Cruickshank: So as a
disciple maker, I think it's

about reorienting our
expectations here, right? So

that it's not about memorizing a
Bible passage, it's not about

how consistent you are with your
quiet times. It's actually about

letting go and letting Jesus
recreate us. So that's why my

definition for discipleship is
being changed by Jesus. Because,

look, you can read the Bible
forever and it not change you.

There are people that I know,
that you probably know, that are

like that you can behave in the
right way, and then you have an

empty heart. You can, yes, you
can behave in the right way. You

can believe all the right
things. Well, guess what demons

do too. So what? Right? But so
none of those things are the

measure of being a disciple.
Instead, it's being able to be

recreated lane, you know, doing
that whole baptism and, you

know, baptism and Resurrection
process, death and resurrection

process, and being willing to go
through that. So as disciple

makers, when we can say, Okay,
this is, this is the journey

we're going to go on, and we're
going to encounter prayer and

Scripture and all those things
along the way, God is going to

actually tear down the lies and
that you believe and give you

truth, give you right belief.
He's going to help you behave in

a better way. But. It's because
we've been recreated, not

because we have this top down
process. So that's, that's the

miracle we get to engage in as a
disciple. So just want to

reorient our expectations to
what this journey looks like.

Chris: So I told both of you
guys, I didn't grow up in a

Christian home, and I had no I
had a bunch of, like, Baptist

friends in college that always
tried to get me to go to church,

and I never went, because I just
felt like they wanted the free

pizza for bringing a friend, and
I was a number and not that big

of a deal. And then I got down
to Florida, and I met somebody

who, like, we had a business
together, and after 911 it

completely flopped, and he was
so, like, calm, and we didn't

know how we were going to keep
going. And I said to him, how do

you have this peace? And
finally, for the first time, he

opened up. He goes, I know God's
going to provide. And he's like,

why don't you come to my church?
Just happened to be Jake's jet

dad's church 25 years ago. And I
said, No, I'm not going to do

that. I want to church. Well,
they had this walk through

Bethlehem event. It was, like,
super cheesy. It was great

where, like, people are dressed
up, you know, and they're

serving the signature item was
camel stew, not made of real

camel.

Jessie Cruickshank: Sounds like
the 90s. It gives us a 90s out,

you know, edgy outrage in

Jacob: the 90s, and then blood
into the tooth.

Chris: And one of the crafts for
kids was a peanut baby Jesus,

where you took a peanut and you
turned it into Jesus, you put it

in the thing. Well, the very
first person I met at Jake's

dad's church was this ornery old
guy, and he was dressed as like

an Israelite. And I just
remember like he was he came

toward us and he's like,
swearing, and he's like, sounds

not working, nothing's working.
And I'm like, Oh, hey, how are

you? And he's like, it was so
grumpy. And then, like, 20 years

later, as I was part of the
church, he became, like, one of

the sweetest human beings that,
like, I'd ever met. And the

change was real, and it was
because the people that he was

with that surrounded him. It was
because of his deep faith in

Jesus. And like, we go back to
the initial question, is change

possible? Heck yes, it's
possible. It's possible through

the Holy Spirit. It's possible
through a relationship in Jesus.

It's possible because I used to
be a gigantic jerk, and now I'm

just kind of a jerk. It's
possible that God can work

through our lives and start to
change us and change the people

around us. And so I don't know,
Jesse like this has been helpful

to me, because I think some
people out there are honestly

like, I don't know if change is
possible. They have a spouse

that has a reoccurring habit
that, like, doesn't change, or

they, you know, their their
their life has become stale,

their relationships are hard,
with their kids, whatever it may

be like I my suggestion and my
my thing for everybody listening

to this podcast is, yes, Change
is possible. God is real.

Miracles still happen. Like,
let's be faithful. Pray for

those who need change, and then
also, like, surround them in

love and grace and mercy, just
like Jesus did,

Jessie Cruickshank: there you
go, boom. You did it. Mic drop,

crit.

Chris: Mic drop. All right, hey
everybody. It's nice to have

one. It's nice to have one.
Okay, you've been listening to

the ordinary discipleship
podcast. If you found this

helpful, give us five stars.
Give us a review. Share this on

your socials, and you'll help
other people be blessed. And

Jesse, if people want to know
more about the work that you do

in the kingdom. How can they
find that out?

Jessie Cruickshank: You can
always go to our website,

hooology.co. That's W, H, O, o,
l, o, G, y.co, check out what

webinars we've got going on
tools we've got to help. And

yeah, we're, we're here to help
support the journey. Awesome.

Chris: Awesome. Jacob, thank
you, my friends, perfect. As

always, you're hitting nine for
nine on this season. All right,

guys, thank you so much for
listening to the podcast. God

bless you. We'll see you next
time bye, bye. You.