Chris: Hey everybody, welcome to
the ordinary discipleship

podcast. My name is Chris here
with the one and only Jacob and,

of course, the smartest person
in the room, Jesse. Jesse, would

you say you're a good listener?
What are you oh my gosh, that's

how you're gonna start it off.
Would you say if I interviewed

your husband, would he say that
you're a good listener?

Jessie Cruickshank: Jesse, he
would, he loves that joke. He

would, he would ask, What did
you say as well? Huh? Pretty

hilarious. Yeah, I have no idea
what he would say, because I

wouldn't be listening to the
answer.

Chris: And Jacob, are you good
listener? Okay, so that's a no,

that's a no. Anyway. So none of
us are good listeners. That's

fine. So many times today, when
a human being comes to us as a

leader and they have a problem,
we instantaneously go into

mechanic mode. We want to fix
it. Fix it. We want to do it.

And sometimes we don't take the
proper steps when it comes to an

issue like that, sometimes we
don't sit down. We don't hear

what the person is saying today
in discipleship, we're going to

talk about listening. We're
going to talk about it. We're

going to get into it right now.
Jesse, we talked about it before

this episode. Why don't you
explain a little bit deeper

about what we're going into
today and how it's going to help

the everyday person help with
ordinary discipleship.

Jessie Cruickshank: Great, great
question. Okay? Because for me

listening, there's like what
people say, then there's what

their heart is trying to
express, and then there's like,

what God might be saying to you
as well. So you can call that

three or four way listening.
I've heard it called sometimes

like I'm listening to myself.
I'm listening to the words

you're saying. I'm trying to
hear your heart, in case you're

doing a poor job expressing
yourself. And then what is God

saying? You know, in the midst
of all that, what is the Holy

Spirit saying? And I think
what's interesting is that, if

we're just only paying attention
to our own voice in our own

head, our own experience, our
own you know, past inclinations

to take the answer that was the
answer for us and then just

apply that to someone else, then
we haven't actually heard them,

and we probably haven't heard
God either, Because listening is

a very and discipleship is a
very in the moment, in the

context of that person that day,
and that lesson God is trying to

teach them. Like, it's, it's a
very present thing. It's not a

bunch of advice that you could
plug into chat GPT and then put

your question in there, and it's
like, here's the best things to

do, like, like, that's not a
spirit led discernment process

of listening to their heart and
listening to God and being part

of that moment. So yeah, just
just fun fact. Chat. GPT is not

a substitute for the Holy
Spirit, and you need the Holy

Spirit in this moment, because
only the Holy Spirit is going to

be able to tell you what Holy
Spirit's agenda is for this

person in this moment, right?
And if you think you know that

you're you're wrong.

Chris: So I just saw I, um,
recently subscribed to apple

plus news, because I'm kind of a
big, big deal, so I'm paying the

$6 a month for it. And they the
first, the first story that came

across today was that a mega
church pastor created an AI bot

that's by subscription, that you
can pray and talk to him in his

voice. And I was like, that's
insane. Like this, I know Jesse.

I got the same Oh. I was like,
so you pay like, $7 a month, and

you're talking to an AI bot in
his voice. I'm like, This is

gross, like

Jessie Cruickshank: y'all, this
is how little we understand what

discipleship is if we think
that's an answer. So let's talk

about what we should do instead.
Okay, right? No, I mean, no,

it's like the reality of the
moment we're in. We, we are so

confused about what it means to
be in relationship with someone

else in a spirit led way, that
we think we can do something

like that, charge people for it.
And we're we're meeting a need.

What do you what are you even
doing? What are you even doing?

Chris: That's like, the
antithesis of, like, what would

be good discipleship, creating
an AI bot that you can talk to.

Jacob: One of the key points
that is crucial for how we talk

about this stuff around whoology
is like, because I think a lot

of us say, Well, yeah, of
course, I should listen before I

speak. Oh, yeah. And I'm not
really great at it, but, you

know, it's just something that
something I have to do. And I

think that's true, you should
listen before you speak. But

why? And I think it's because
there's a moment in there where

when I pause and acknowledge
that the other person is saying

something to me, that's a moment
of differentiation when I'm

going. Too fast, and I'm not
listening. I'm just putting

myself into their story, and I'm
sort of like the opposite of

being differentiated is being
fused. And so I'm just kind of

fusing myself into their story
and then telling them what I

think I would want to do, rather
than helping them hear what the

Lord is leading them to do. And
so the listening is the moment

to say, you have your story. I
have my story. You are welcoming

me into your story, but that
doesn't make it mine. And so the

listening is is allowing myself
to stand apart from the other

Okay, so I can assist from the
side, rather than just try to

make their story my own.

Jessie Cruickshank: I think
about like, like, you guys are

married, and maybe the people
listening are in a married, a

significant other relationship.
And so whether, whether you're

married or you just have friends
like most of us, if we've been

in relationship long enough, and
we're trying to, like, be with

the other person in a deeper
relational way there comes at

the point where you have a
conversation where it goes

something like, Hey, understand
that that thing that you did the

way you tried to answer my
question or fix my problem or

meet my need, that's what you
would want, or that's what you

would need, but that's not what
I need. I need something

different. I need, I need that
situation handled in a different

way. Because, oh, by the way,
I'm a different person than you

and I have, I have different
needs, I have a different love

language, I have different
fears, I have different

strengths. And, you know, we you
get to that point in a in a

relationship at some at some
point where you have that

conversation and you understand
the way that you love yourself

is differently than the way that
you would love that person,

because they're a different
person. But in ministry so

often, and we'll get into this
in another episode, we just

treat people like they're all
the same. We treat them like,

you know, it's, it's, it's, it's
out, I don't know, I It really

feels like cardboard to me,
where everybody's a cardboard

cutout of a Jesus widget figure,
and we just kind of mass apply

these answers or solutions or
platitudes or advice, and it's

really we're the only human in
the conversation, and everyone's

an NPC, Right? Everyone's a non
player character, and we're just

living out our storyline,
telling them our best wisdom and

information, and it has
absolutely nothing to do with

hearing their moment, hearing
their heart and having a very

contextualized present, you
know, conversation. So it's like

Jacob likes to say that, you
know, the best way to help

somebody is just to ask them
what they

Chris: need. Sometimes, the best
way to help somebody is to

simply ask, and we forsake that
step, or we just go into like

remedy mode.

Jacob: Sometimes we don't
actually trust them, the people

we're leading, or the people
that were discipling to hear

from the Lord, or we're scared
of what the Lord is going to

tell them, and so we'd prefer to
tell them ourselves and so, but

so that, that moment of saying,
Hey, how can I help? Yeah, or

what are you wrestling with? Or
what do you think the Lord is

saying to you, that's actually a
risky moment, because in that

moment I don't know what's going
to happen next? I'd prefer to

just go, well, here, listen,
here's the solution. Let me tell

you how it's going to go, but,
but, but the riskier move is to

open up to to the to what God
might be doing, which we don't

know what it is, right?

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. And
isn't that like giving away

control? I mean, Jacob, I just
think about like, from your

leadership position, and for me,
you know, in my different

consulting roles and stuff like,
like, it's a low power posture

to say, well, how are you
answering that question? And so

you're, you're actually, like,
giving away the ability to to

manage the narrative or control
the outcome or determine what's

next, right? And yet, like,
there's no there's no space to

grow unless there's space to
grow. So like, like, how do you

think about that, even in your
responsibility as a senior

pastor,

Jacob: my wife and I led the
planting of a church in 2015 so

we're coming up on 10 years, and
I was the only staff person to

begin with, and I preach every
week, and so I could manage all

the relationships myself. A
couple of years ago, we started

adding staff people, and
something I had to learn was I

couldn't manage their
relationships for them, which

sounds funny when we say it, but
out loud, but it's like I wanted

to make sure they were getting
along with everybody in the

church as well as I do or
something. And what would happen

is I would start to try to give
advice or critique or something.

And that didn't help. Just
drama, travel, Chase, right? Oh,

true. And so I had to learn was
like, Oh no, they're they are

also people who are guided by
the Spirit. Their relationships

with the congregation might look
different than mine do, but that

doesn't make them wrong or
invalid. In fact, maybe I have

something to learn, right, and
so like, and you're right, the

power move is to just tell
everybody how to behave. Just do

this, talk this way, communicate
this way, check in with me for

everything. And there are
leaders who do that, but at

best, they have minions, right,
not coworkers.

Chris: I'm wrestling with that
same thing right now. Like, we

just got to the point where I
could hire a couple of people,

and it's been kind of cool. But,
like, I handle everybody with

very soft gloves, and some of
them handle them a little bit

more stern, and I have to remind
them They're volunteers. You got

to chill out. They're not paid
and and they're not handling

them the way that I would handle
them. And it's like aggravating.

But then I also exactly what you
two said, I have to realize

they're being, you know, they're
God's creation. They're being

driven by the Holy Spirit. They
might handle it a different way.

And maybe that's not necessarily
wrong. So the time for

correction does happen. But man,
I Jake's dad always used to say,

you know, the toughest thing
about the church is all the

people. If it wasn't for all the
people, this would be easy and

and he's the more you add people
like the more relationships. And

it's just, I mean, seminary,
nothing prepares you for this.

It's It's tricky, it's tough.
Relationships, as I said in a

previous episode, are the
hardest things we're going to

navigate in this life. I think
it does come back to square one.

Sometimes saying, Okay, seeing
that person as a child of God,

and like listening to their
story and and understanding

where they're coming from, is
such a big part of it.

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, if
our goal in discipleship is to

help them become, as Dallas
Willard says, The what would it

look like if Jesus lived their
life, and that that's, that's

kind of the expectation, you
know, if Jesus was in their job

and in their shoes and in their
family, like, What would Jesus

do in that situation? And our
goal as discipling people, as

the people of God, is to help
another person discern. You

know, it's super cheesy, but
it's kind of still actually true

is, what would Jesus do in your
situation? And that if we just

give them an answer of what our
of our situation or our opinion,

we're not going to help them
grow in that. And if we don't

help them learn how to do that,
then they're never going to

become the thing like, who God
wants them to be, who God

created them to be. That
requires agency. And if we and

if we shut them down, we just
tell them what to do, then they

have no agency to grow into what
God wants them to be.

Chris: Time out. You said that
you're way smarter than I am,

and you said agency a few times.
I'm curious. What do you mean by

that?

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, so
agency is your ability to impact

their world around you. It's one
of the first things that babies

learn. And you can tell when a
baby is learning this that they

have impact on their world when
they start to play parent fetch.

So that's when they take the toy
or the whatever, and they're

just sitting in the high chair.
They can probably barely sit up

at this age, but they're like,
Oh, let me throw this on the

floor, and mom or dad or
whomever, caregiver picks it up.

Okay, they're learning in that
moment, I can do an action and

get a predictable reaction. I
see call it parent. I call it

parent fetch. And so they are
conditioning their parent to be

responsive to a specific stimuli
of throwing the toy on the

ground. Now that is a baby
learning that they can actually

impact the world around them.
Okay, as we grow as humans, we

learn that in greater greater
complexity, how we impact more

people, how we impact our
family, how we impact our

neighborhood, how we impact our
world, and so knowing that you

can have an impact in your own
life and in your own situation

is is critical to our journey of
formation, and if we are shut

down from that, if if someone
else gets in the way, if someone

else blocks us from experiencing
the consequences of our actions,

or mitigates our impact, because
they're either telling us to be

quiet, don't use your voice,
your you know, specific

situation doesn't matter, or,
Hey, you did something wrong.

And so I'm gonna get involved
and make that triangle and

manage your relationships for
you, then they're not learning

how they actually impact their
world and situation. And it's

not healthy. I see it's not a
healthy dynamic.

Chris: Okay, okay, well, thank
you for breaking that down.

Because I had no idea you were
saying agency. And I'm like,

What is she talking about? I
don't understand, but that

that's helpful.

Jacob: Uh, Jacob, well, and so
that for, like, coming back to

the church setting, then, right?
And like, what Chris and I were

talking about, where, like,
there's a temptation when

you're. In a position of
leadership in a church to try to

manage all the relationships, to
maintain harmony across the

congregation. The issue is that
if I do that in such a way that

other people are being I think
the best, like, the best way to

give an example, is what Jesse
was talking about was mitigating

the consequences of people's
actions. It's like if I try to

get in between people's
relationships and go, Oh, don't

be defended by Joe. That's just
Joe. Let me explain Joe to you.

Then then Joe never experiences
the consequences of the offense

that he caused, and Joe doesn't
get a chance to grow. Oh, and by

the way, the person that Joe
offended never learns to how to

go to Joe and say, You offended
me. And so I'm actually keeping

the congregation immature,
saying I'm maintaining harmony.

And so we have to let those
people work it out, even though

it might mean that there's some
rupture in our congregation. We

have to let those people work it
out if they're going to grow

into who they're called to

Jessie Cruickshank: be. So
that's what that differentiation

that we're talking about in the
Listening comes in, because now

we're not getting in the middle
of what they're supposed to be

walking out. So we so we bring
this back to listening. We're

listening the situation,
listening to the context, and

we're helping people grow into
who they're supposed to be,

which means we don't get to
manage that outcome, and we need

to do way more listening about
it, to them, to their heart, to

the Holy Spirit, then what our
preference is, or even what has

worked for us in the past. So
that's kind of, that's kind of

how this all ties together.
Because if we don't do the

listening well, we keep people
spiritually and emotionally

immature, and they never learn
how to be adults. You know, in

this world, that's why it's
important.

Chris: Okay, wow, okay, that's
gonna do it for this episode.

Jesse, I noticed behind you,
I've been last few episodes

trying to guess this picture I
think we have Clint Eastwood is

that the outlaw Josie Wales
behind you?

Jessie Cruickshank: No but good.
Guess. Good. Guess it is The Man

with No Name from a few dollars
more. So if you're a spaghetti

western or a Clint Eastwood fan,
it's the middle trilogy that

culminates in The Good, the Bad
and the

Chris: Ugly, awesome, fantastic.
You're so cool. Okay, thank you

guys for listening to the
ordinary discipleship podcast.

If you like this episode, give
us five stars. Review us. Share

it with a friend so more people
can find it. And Jesse, if

people want to know more about
your about you, and Jacob with

whoology, can you give them a
little snippet?

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, you
can always go to hoologie.co

check out what we're offering in
terms of webinars and training

online Bible study class. You
can catch more episodes of the

podcast. This is season five or
six, or I'm not quite sure at

this point, so you can, you can
go and listen to other other

seasons and, yeah, reach out to
us see, let us know how we can

help you. Absolutely.

Chris: Thank you guys so much
for listening. God bless. We'll

see you next time on the
ordinary discipleship podcast,

you.