Chris: Hey everybody, welcome to
the ordinary discipleship

podcast. My name is Chris. I'm
here with Jacob, and also the

one and only Jesse. Today we are
talking about discipleship and

leadership and how to train
discipleship so many times in

churches that you walk into a
church and right away

discipleship is like you need to
take foundations 101

foundations, 102 foundations,
103 and once you get to

foundations 104 then you will be
a full disciple of Jesus with

all access to heaven, not
necessarily true. I think so

many times we think we we defer
real discipleship to programs

and we train for leadership, but
we we shape for discipleship.

Everybody thinks that maturity
is a skill to be developed, but

it's actually a story to be
written. I wish I could take

credit for that beautiful line,
but that was the one and only.

Jacob Hoyer, Jacob, talk to us,
buddy about this, programs,

leadership, discipleship, what
is going on out there? It's a

crazy world.

Jacob: Yeah. I mean, I think,
like the the 101102103104

situation you were just
describing is like there was a

period in the American church
where we were really focused on,

hey, how many people can we
reach? Let's get some volume

here, efficiency. And so we
created discipleship systems

that were highly efficient. But
in order to do that, what we did

was we, we said, All right, what
a disciple is for our church. It

means everybody looking the
same, and then, and then we can

just train for it, and the
problem is they're like and so

this is actually how we end up
with leadership and discipleship

being confused around hoology,
we would say leadership and

discipleship are two different
things, and there are other

people who would disagree, and a
part of that is because what

they're saying is we we can
train you to be a disciple.

Well, we would disagree. We'd
say, well, we can train you in

the skills of leadership, but
actually, discipleship is less

about that's what we said. It's
less about a skill to be

developed and more about a story
to be written. Because we say

that discipleship is being
changed by Jesus. In order to do

that, we need to look at what
God is doing in our life and

allow God to help us reauthor
Our narrative. That's how

discipleship happens. And so you
can't do that in a one size fits

all. It has to be sort of a
bespoke solution, like a person

by person sort of thing. Doesn't
mean you can't have a curriculum

or a pathway that people can
walk, but it means that along

the way, it needs to have the
adaptability for the individual.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
mean, just think about like, the

kinds of people who don't make
it in those types of programs,

right? Let's say you're not good
in school. You're probably not

gonna go through this class, you
know, or the series of class, or

you'll do one, and then you'll
be like, Oh my gosh, this is

like school and, you know, or
maybe you don't have good

reading comprehension, and
that's a that's a significant

part of the population that
don't really learn deeply

through reading. They need they
need conversation. Or, let's say

you have somebody like in in the
church that I go to, it's very

blue collar, it's very salt of
the earth. If someone came in

here and I was like, Hey, pick
out the people who you think are

leaders, quote, unquote, like
they probably wouldn't pick out

anybody, because the people that
are in like roles with

responsibility are former drug
addicts and former prostitutes

and a guy who is homeless and
has a homeless missionary

ministry like those are the
people who are stakeholders in

our congregation. And you
wouldn't look at them and go,

Oh, that's leadership material.
I need to get them into a class.

I need to get them into, you
know, this program and and so

for me, I think about all the
people who aren't going to feel

successful, valued, qualified in
the narrowness of what those

classes usually look like,
right? So how do we, how do we

think about discipleship in a
way that everyone is qualified,

that everyone has is released to
make another disciple?

Chris: So then I rewind a little
bit, and I wonder why this has

kind of been the the mode that
most churches take. Like, if

you're talking about a big
church, a discipleship is

usually a class, and I feel like
maybe they did that because it's

easy. Like it's easy to throw 50
people in the discipleship one

on one class and to have a
conversation with them, as

opposed to trying to train
people up and do one on one

discipleship, especially in
bigger churches. So I don't

know, like,

Jacob: Well, I think that like,
so what I hear you saying is,

yeah, I'll practice by
listening. He's good at that,

because we talked about that the
last. Last episode, we just

recorded what you're you're
going well, if we are sitting

here around our microphones
talking about why it's such a

bad idea to try to try to create
Jesus widgets, why is that?

Sometimes the pattern that we
see, I would say that, like the

models of church that we've
inherited from the past, might

have been the right models for
their time. So it doesn't mean

that those models have always
been bad or a bad fit. It just

means that maybe we're in a
different time now, and this is

where, like, if we go to like,
1940 to 1960 everybody in

America just kind of assumed
everybody, or their neighbors,

were Christian, and the way that
we did church was just, well,

you're all going to church,
right? Yeah, so this is the best

church for you. And I think like
as some of these models were

developed, there was more of an
assumption of a certain set of

values, and there were certain
conversations happening in

homes. And so what the church
was doing was educating on

things. Now I think we're in a
different season where people's

lives aren't imbued with Chris,
with quote, unquote, Christian

culture for better and for
worse. So like we can bemoan it,

but also, there are some
benefits to the fact that

people's formation isn't just
happening through the culture.

And so there were times when
what the church needed to offer

was a set of classes that time
is not now, any longer, unless

Jesse, or Yeah, one of you can
disagree with

Jessie Cruickshank: me. I do. I
do. I disagree a little bit

because I think about like my my
grad work is in experiential

education, how in brain science
education, educational brain

science and so we disciple the
same way that we the way that we

think people learn and the way
that we think people learn for

the last 150 years, comes out of
this idea that people are blank

slates. So Freud. This comes
from Freud. Freud got he was

nobody in Europe liked Freud.
They were all Jungian, right? So

they all like Carl Jung and they
said, Oh, Freud, that guy's a

joker and a coke addict who has
got like, issues with his mom.

So nobody listened to him. But
we do what we do in North

America, and we're like, oh,
we'll take Europe's crazy, which

we do all the time. And so we
said, okay, yeah, Freud, this

guy, we're a blank slate. So
let's create a school system

where we write on the blank
slate. It's called Tabua rasa.

We write on these blank slates
of kids, and we put them through

this, this process of grade one,
grade two, grade three, grade

four, and each grade writes
their information on their blank

slate. And we get at the end,
and this was the goal. The goal

was a normal person. And we do
this in discipleship. We just

call it making people look like
Jesus. We don't think about what

God is doing in their life,
their personality. Just like

schools are not designed for
people with personalities,

neither is most discipleship
classness. So we took the way

that we thought about school,
which is not biologically

correct, and we apply that. And
then in the 50s, in the 60s, so

we have a school like process.
But now, instead of the goal

being normal people, we have
this value of the exceptional,

the amazing, the Superman and
and we think that I don't want

to be normal. I want to be or
average. I want to be above

average. So now we're going to
design a process that will

highlight and illuminate the
people who are better at this

than others. We're going to tell
them they're called we're going

to put them in a leadership
pipeline. We're going to

cultivate them, and we're going
to we're going to invest extra

resources in the ones who are
really responsive, is how we

talk about it. So we added this
process of school. We added to

it of in the 50s and the 60s, a
value of the exclusive, the

extraordinary, the better than
and now we're going to just, you

know, we and then we just
maximized this in churches. We

didn't question it. We didn't
question the paradigm or the

narrative of that whole thing.
So in so we think, Well, we're

just going to develop the skills
to help everybody be an

exceptional Christian. Instead
of what story is God trying to

write through their life? It's,
it's a it's an opposite

direction from what I think God
is trying to do, and what I see

in the scriptures, what I see
Jesus do with people. Jesus

didn't put people through a
program process and sit down the

12 Disciples and say, Okay,
well, we're here's here. We're

going to talk about this part of
theology, and then we're going

to talk about this part of
theology like it's not, it's not

what he

Chris: did. So okay, I can, I
can understand what you're

saying. But what does a big
church do? Like, how do they do

discipleship? Because we're
talking about the problem, we've

identified the problem, but how
do we move forward?

Jacob: Systems aren't bad,
right? Right, but the the goals

of the systems might be, or the
assumptions about who people are

that are embedded in the systems
and so and so, that's what we're

saying. Is like, it doesn't mean
that you cannot have a

systematic approach to
discipleship. It's just that

your your systematic approach
needs to design for relationship

and agency and individuality and
so and that's where like on if I

wonder if Jesse and I could lead
a church together, because we

probably actually have pretty
different philosophies on

discipleship systems, and they
both can work, right? So to the

question of, What does a big
church do? I would say, well, we

have a friend, Dave Rhodes, who
says, Every big church needs to

learn how to get small, and
every small church needs to

learn how to get big. And so
it's about, if I'm a big church,

the question is, how do I create
environments where church can

feel small, and if I'm a small
church, how do I communicate to

the community that my impact can
be big?

Chris: It's so funny that you
just said that we have a big,

mega church in Orlando, and they
recently spent a ton of money

making their sanctuary look
smaller. And I could not

understand, for the life of me,
like why they did that, because

they they they fill up every
week, but they made intentional

efforts to make it look like a
smaller space. So I don't know

that it's off topic, but kind of
what you're just

Jessie Cruickshank: No, no,
it's, it is? It is an

interesting phenomenon. So like,
if we think about the way the

brain was designed and the
optimal size for a learning

environment, not for an
information dump, passive, but

like, let's have a conversation.
I'm going to learn this in my

story, in my autobiographical
memory, I'm experienced this

that group size is 12. So it
doesn't matter how many your

mass gathering is, whether
that's 50 or 5000 if you can

create systems where you can
have chunks of 1212, people

gathering and they're discussing
and they're wrestling, then they

are going to have the
opportunity to actually learn

things in a deep way, because at
the end of the day, our goal is

mature Christians, not
volunteers in a program, and so

that's what Jacob's talking
about. The goals of the system

may be what's wrong, and our
goals have been, they haven't

been maturity. They haven't been
spiritual maturity. They've

been, well, the best way for me
to disciple somebody is to put

them into a volunteer position,
and now they're leading

something, and the church
becomes the end and the the

recipient of everybody's growth,
when really it's supposed to be

the neighborhood and the
community and their workplaces.

That's what should be receiving
the fruit of their

transformation, not the inside
of the church. So we can get

chunks of 12. I don't care if
you have five of those or 5

million of those, that's the
optimal size. And we can just

figure out the systems to equip
and support chunks of 12.

Chris: Okay, so you have, let's
say you're a smaller church. You

have 120 people. You break them
into chunks of 12. You have 10

chunks of 12. You equip leaders.
But now, what are you doing?

Jesse, like, what are you doing
with those 12?

Jacob: Yeah, and I would say,
like, I wouldn't even

necessarily say it's you've got
120 people, break them into 10

chunks of 12. But I think what
you want to do is, I think with

those 120 people, you start to
train them for relationship, and

they will naturally congregate
into groups of 12 that may be

static or maybe shifting, and
it's in those spaces where

they're going to grow. And so
it's about, how are we coming

alongside of people to give them
the resources they need when the

opportunity arises?

Chris: So let me, let me, let
me. Stop you there. Train them

to be better at relationship.
Break that down. What's that

mean?

Jacob: So it's things about,
like, how do we rupture and

repair? Like, how do we how do
we offend one another and come

back to the table? How do we
learn to listen to one another

so that when we speak
encouragement, it's actually

received as encouragement. How
do we like so things like that?

Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank: How do we
see one another? How do we ask

God, what God is doing in their
life? How do we listen, as Jacob

said, listen to them. How do we
hold space with them? How do we

try not to fix them and deal
with with the pain that comes

from sin, not just in their own
life, but the life of everyone

who's journeying with them? We
don't teach people how to do

that, and so we they like, Oh,
you got messy. I can't handle

you. And we let that be okay,
instead of specifically training

and talking to people about how
to be with each other in those

hard growth spaces, which we'll
have another podcast on. But

like if we talk to people about
that and we give them

opportunities to cluster,
formally or informally, i. They

will naturally have the growth
conversations.

Chris: So in those groups that
you spoke of, like, obviously,

there's got to be some kind of
leader or disciple maker in

those groups, I would imagine,
right? And what's that? Or,

okay,

Jessie Cruickshank: or everyone
in that group as a disciple

maker, and maybe you have a
convener. Maybe it's just a

host, maybe you have a
facilitator. But if it's just a

smaller version of a church
service, if you still just have

one person teaching everyone
else, that's not what we're

talking about. That's not a
discipleship group. That's,

there are other words for it.
There's, you know, it's

something else. So you can have
a host that doesn't have to know

anything, a convener doesn't
have to know anything. You can

use discovery Bible questions is
your four questions, what does

this pass that you read a
passage of scripture and you ask

the group, what does this teach
me about God? What does this

teach me about myself? What does
this teach me about others? And

who do I need to share this
with? That's it, and that what

that requires is trust in the
Holy Spirit. That requires not

trust in the knowledge of the
information of someone who's

been trained in a skill, but
trust in the Holy Spirit to lead

people into all truth, because
the Holy Spirit knows the story

he's writing in everyone's life.
And they're, they're tangibly,

palpably different environments,

Jacob: like I'll run to a
different example if I can. I

spoke to a couple that was a
part of a large church, and they

led a small group at that large
church. And they were, they were

speaking to me, because we have
friends in common who are part

of our church, which is a small
church, and they knew that we

talk a lot about community. And
I went over to their house late

one night, and they said to me,
we have this problem. All of our

friends, the people we feel
called to be in life, on life

with at our church, are also
leaders of small groups and our

the people, the staff at our
church, tell us we can't be in a

group together because we all
have to lead groups. And they

felt like they are telling all
of us that we have to lead

groups, and so we don't like
we're spending all of our time

just leading curriculum in
groups. Yeah, we don't actually

have time to be in relationship
with each other in a way that

can actually help us grow. That
stinks, and that's where, like,

that's where I'm saying, like,
the goal there is, how many

groups can we make? Because we
know everybody has to be in a

group, so let's make as many
groups as possible, and every

group has to have a leader. And
it's like the original

motivation was good. Let's
disciple people, but when the

system dominates the objective,
then everything falls apart.

Jessie Cruickshank: So this is
where the conviction that the

goal is spiritual maturity,
because and not a volunteer to

perpetuate a church program,
because, if the goal in that

situation that Jacob just
described with spiritual

maturity, be like, Oh, well,
these people aren't growing

either. Like, like, they need an
opportunity to, you know, have

that encouragement and that that
that Iron sharpens. Iron pure,

you know, sharpening dynamic and
but obviously, you know, but if

that's not the goal, you're
gonna make decisions in a, you

know, towards a different end.
Even though your small groups

exist in either in either
example,

Chris: it's a lot because, like,
we just finished our first

season of small groups at my
small church, and we had six of

them and and the most powerful
ones were, I just had this young

adult group where they just
played pickleball, and then they

read a psalm afterwards. And I,
like, was so good. It was so

good. They had so many new
Christians like come and and I'm

going to lead one next season,
where it's just, let's go out to

eat every Tuesday, and let's
just talk and get to know each

other. And I think sometimes in
the church world, we're so hyper

focused on we've got to do a
Bible study. We've got to do

this. And you kind of, and
that's good. There's nothing

against that, but you kind of
overstep or forsake like the

relational aspects sometimes in
it, because you're trying to

push curriculum as opposed to
the relationship. I think that's

super important. Yeah, wow.
Okay, this was good. This helped

me. Thank you guys. A lot to
take away here. You two are

great. Okay, well, that's going
to do it for this episode of the

ordinary discipleship podcast.
Please, if this was helpful to

you, rate us on wherever you
download your podcast, leave a

review so other people can find
us and Jesse Jacob, why don't

you talk a little bit about what
you two do together? Go ahead,

Jacob, you've been

Jacob: you're such a we are.
We're developing content around

neuro and. Form discipleship
resources. That's what we call

it. So you can find more of
books, podcasts,

courses@hoology.co that's W, H,
O, o, l, o, G, y.co, and you can

find it there.

Chris: That's awesome. That
sounds really smart stuff.

That's good. And guarantee you
guys disciple people 98% better

than any other program. That's
what I heard. Is that true?

That's again, that's or your or
your money back, that's what I

heard. I didn't know if that

Jessie Cruickshank: charges for
discipleship. How did you get

that gig? Yeah.

Chris: Anyway, I think that's
gonna do it for today. Ladies

and gentlemen. Thank you so
much. God bless you. Thanks for

joining us for another ride on
the discipleship podcast. God

bless See ya. Bye. You.