Jessie Cruickshank: Hello and
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship podcast. I am Jesse
Cruikshank, and with me today is

my friend Mike Wiggin. And Mike
is one of those guys that if we

run into each other at a
conference or a place, we end up

in a corner somewhere for three
hours talking about dynamic

systems theories, entanglement
theory, astrophysics, like we

just get, and then the theology
of all of that. So we just end

up nerding out for hours. But
today, we're not going to do

that. So that just made you
worried. Today, what we're going

to talk about is our love for
the ordinary person, the

everyday follower of Jesus. And
how in the midst of all of this

complexity, we actually see some
incredible simplicity of the

gospel, the gospel message, what
God wants from us, what God is

asking us to do. So we're going
to go that direction today.

Maybe we'll save the super nerd
for another for another time,

but Mike, give our listeners who
probably aren't aware of the

work that you do in discipleship
and evangelism, give them a

little bit of your background, a
little bit of your very cool

story and why you're so in love
with Jesus.

Mike Wiggin: Well, thanks so
much for having me on. It's

definitely an honor to be on the
reason why I'm so passionate for

one about people surrendering
their life to Jesus, actually,

is because of my own story. I
was raised in the church. My

parents did the best that they
knew. How not mad at them for

that. They raised me in a very,
very legalistic, independent

fundamental Baptist Church.

Unknown: Yeah, we got

Mike Wiggin: that background the
same. We have that the same,

which, you know, gave me a love
for the Bible, which I'm so

grateful for. When I started to
unlearn a lot of the things that

come along with that type of
church. What I uncovered was

this word that I had read in the
Bible and heard before called

grace, and as I started to
pursue that myself, that is

when, at 25 years old, after
thinking I had lived a life for

Jesus up until I was 18, and
walked away from the church that

is God through a dream, showed
me what it was going to look

like at the end when we stand
before Jesus. And it terrified

me, and probably not in the way
you expect I saw. I'm a

construction worker by trade,
and I was out on I used to frame

custom homes, and I was out on
the job site with this guy for

several months, who was probably
60 years old at the time, and

was crazy on fire for Jesus. And
honestly, it drove me crazy,

because this is at the height of
my running away from God. The

reason I was running from God is
when I was 13, my grandma and

great grandma died about two and
a half weeks apart from each

other, and I went to my church
for help, and I felt like,

honestly, they offered zero help
to me. And again, I'm not mad at

them for that, I just think they
were so ill equipped to deal

with things like that, and so I
made a vow then that if

something didn't change, I was
leaving the church. And I did,

so I'm working with this guy.
And I said, Why are you like

this? And he said, Well, I was
just like you once. And he said,

I my wife drug me to church one
night, a missionary showed up

and showed us all these slides,
and was telling us about this

amazing work that God was doing,
and it totally captured my

heart. I go home that night. I
said, Okay, God, if You're real,

I need some evidence. I need
some proof. So I went to sleep,

and God, he said, Mike, you can
believe me or not, but God took

me to hell and let me see it. He
said it terrified me. I was I

could feel it. I could smell it.
I was in this torturous free

fall. My wife thought I was
having a heart attack, and as I

sat up in bed, she was like
trying to call the police to

have an ambulance kind of get
me. And he said My life changed

forever. So I said, Okay, I
didn't tell anybody that for

about two years. Well, I mean,
who's not my now wife and God

was like, Okay, I have something
different for your life. So I I

prayed for the same dream. I
said, All right, well, show me

that you're real. And I went to
bed and nothing happened for

like, a year, and then two
years, and I was like, Okay, I

don't know, God, apparently
you're not real. But I was

learning about Grace at the
time, so one night, I went to

bed not asking him anything. And
I had just recently read Matthew

721, through 23 that everyone's
going to stand before me one

day, and many of you are going
to say Lord, Lord, and you're

going to hear from me, Depart
from me. And I was that's

obviously a vast paraphrase, but
the point of that whole thing is

all of these people who did all
these literally incredible

things in Jesus name were turned
away from him because they

didn't know him. And. Well, as I
go to sleep that night, I see a

very vivid dream where I'm
standing off in a corner, and I

look to my right, and there's a
line as far as I can see, and I

look to the left, and I can see
the throne, and I can see Jesus

next to it, and I can see these
person after person, walking up

and hearing the words Depart
from me. I don't know who you

are. What Jesus allowed me to do
is not only see their face, but

feel what they felt as they
turned and I could see their

face. I couldn't see the face of
God or Jesus, but I could feel

what they felt, and I could I
could see the look of dread and

terror on their face that okay,
I've wasted my life. This is it.

There are no do overs. And the
way that that impacted me over

the next couple of weeks, I I
got alone with God a lot, and I

was in my apartment one day by
myself, and I literally fell on

my knees, and I said, God, I
don't know what I have, but I

believe you. I surrender
everything I have to you. And

that's the moment where I moved
from death to life. My heart of

stone was replaced with the
heart of flesh, and I have never

been the same since my passion
for Jesus was birthed out of my

own story. Because I see so many
people who claim to have a

relationship with Jesus that
although it's not my place to

judge their heart. It is our
responsibility as followers of

Jesus to observe fruit people
produce. And when you claim to

be a follower of Jesus and
produce no fruit, as I get to

know you in your life, I have a
responsibility to have

conversation with you about
that. And I have seen more

people surrender their life to
Jesus, who thought they were

followers of Jesus, then I have
leading people out of the

harvest who knew nothing about
Jesus, and I think it is the

number one strategy and tactic
of the enemy who doesn't even

want you to hate God. He just
wants to distract you away from

him enough that your eyes are no
longer on him, that you feel

safe and secure in some
emotional experience or a prayer

that you're okay and so that
that's why I'm so passionate

about people truly know and
surrender to Jesus

Jessie Cruickshank: in that
experience. For you, what is you

know I, to me, it's an
interesting question, like, how

does an omnipotent God say I
don't know you, right? Like, to

me, that's, that's one of those
mysterious questions that I

spend time talking to God about.
I mean, I guess I'm not worried

about it, because God and I talk
all the time, and right? So

you're like, Okay, well, I know
he knows me because I'm yelling

at him and we're having
conversations and I'm bugging

him all the time. But what, what
for you? Did you have any

insight? Like, like, what did it
mean that the the I don't know

you, part, like, like, that
obviously revealed something,

because it caused you to make a
different choice. What did but

yeah, what did that mean for
you? How did you interpret

Mike Wiggin: really, yeah,
really, good question, and it

really came to make sense to me
when I had kids. So here's the

analogy I give people. I have
three sons, our house was the

house that all the kids hung out
with for two reasons. One, we

didn't let our kids go stay the
night other people's houses. So

by default, all the friends were
here. Number two, we always had

a pantry full of food and having
all boys, all the boys were

always here eating our food,
which we loved. So we, we have

living rooms full of boys
constantly. So the way that I

describe this to people is I
knew all of their friends by

name. I knew the parents all
this stuff. So for example, if

my oldest son's best friend came
up to me, who's whose name was

Dylan, and Dylan comes up and
goes, Hey, can I stay the night

over at my buddy's house? I go,
I don't care, but go ask your

parents. I'm not your dad. No, I
know, but can I see the night

like Dylan? Listen, I can't give
you that permission. I'm not

your dad. Go ask your dad. But
if my son comes up to me and

says, Hey, Dad, can I go see the
night over here? Well, I'm his

dad, and I have that
relationship with him, and I can

tell him yes or no, because he's
my son and I know him, and

although I knew Dylan as
Elijah's best friend, I don't

have that authority in his life,
because he's not my son. And so

the way that I liken that verse
of scripture is God being

omnipotent and knowing
everything, and even us knowing

about God, we don't have that
intimate relationship with him

until we surrender everything
that we have to him. And I know

that not everybody hearing this
is going to see this visual, but

the way that I give this to
people is is like I we hold our

life in our hands like this. Our
idea of surrender is this. God's

idea of surrender is this. And
when we surrender our lives, and

we turn our hands over where we
can no longer grasp for anything

we are saying, I've lived my
life up to the point where I've

controlled everything I can no
longer do this, I surrender

everything to you. That is

Jessie Cruickshank: not an open
hand, right? So what you did is

you had something in your hand,
and then you said, you know, we

think of surrender as just
opening our hand and like, like,

God could take something out of
it, but you're when what you did

is you said, God's idea of
surrender is flipping your hand

over and just and actually
releasing it, letting it go, not

just having the ability for it
to be taken from you, but to

actually surrendering, dropping
it, you're no longer holding it.

Mike Wiggin: That's right, yeah.
And that moment of surrender in

that day in my apartment, you
know, you know me well enough by

now, nobody knows you on this
podcast, really. But I'm, I'm

not passionate about something I
don't believe in, and I've been

a follower of Jesus now for 25
years, and I'm still so

passionate about him that that's
how I know He's real, because I

can't fake things and so and the
thing I love about it is,

whenever I anybody argues me
about the existence of God, I

don't even engage in that
anymore, because you can't take

my story away from me, and
because my story is mine, and I

know what he did in my life. And
I'm not going to try to convince

you he's real or not, but I will
help you walk down a pathway

that sees who he is. So that's
how I understand the part. For

me, I don't know who you are,

Jessie Cruickshank: there's not
that authority over because they

haven't yielded. They haven't
surrendered. They haven't given

lordship of their life to Jesus
in a comprehensive kind of way.

I mean, I think about that, and
I think about my own life, and

I've been following the Lord
since I was like three. And, I

mean, I mean, I had a break, but
a break in those late teenage

years. And I keep thinking, I'm
surrendered, and I would pray

that. I mean, I can hear what
you're saying. I've definitely

said, God, you can have all of
it until I find the part that I

didn't know I was hanging on to,
or the part I didn't know I

didn't trust. And then life does
stuff, and then you, you know,

you can grasp, you know I wasn't
I may not have grasped certain

things in my 20s, but, yeah, my
40s, like

Unknown: no hard.

Jessie Cruickshank: I don't
know. And so that constant

process of yielding,
surrendering, God, search my

heart. Oh, my gosh, I'm holding
on to this. Here you go, Jesus,

I'm throwing it. I kind of like
throw things at his feet.

Because I'm like, I'm not good
at this. I suck or This is

awful. You

Mike Wiggin: fix this? Yes, no,

Jessie Cruickshank: my surrender
has an acceleration to it. Am I

throwing a rock at Jesus?

Mike Wiggin: It has tone. Oh,
absolutely, yeah. Well, and I

think that's the beauty of, you
know, working through the book

of Acts, talking about moving
from one level of glory to the

next, you know, it's I liken so
many things back to raising

kids. You know, when I I'm
trying to teach my boys about

life and business and
entrepreneurship and owning

responsibility at five years old
versus 25 it's a big difference,

you know. And so I think it's,
you know, God is such a long

suffering God, and the ways that
he just gently moves us towards

himself. I think for me, I was
actually watching a movie the

other day. In this line, this
guy said, is, he was talking

about his sons. He said, My job
is to find out the breaking

point of each one of my sons.
Your job is to peel and so I

think he was talking to this
instructor, and I think, you

know, God's job is to to take us
up to a point where the maturity

and the intimacy that we have
with him breaks. Then He peels

another layer back and shows us
more things about hey, if you

wanted the next level of
intimacy, here's where you need

to go. This is what you need to
give me. And so that is a

lifelong journey, until we look
at him in the face one day, you

know, and that's the beauty of
His grace and long suffering and

patience with us.

Jessie Cruickshank: What's
interesting to me is for someone

like you who has such a heart
for evangelism, you actually

spend more time talking people
out of following Jesus, then

then giving them the marketing
pitch, right? And, and this is

why, this is why you and I and
our paradigms like overlap. I

called discipleship, you called
evangelism. There is a

tremendous overlap, because at
the end of the day, you know, I

don't, transformation should
always be happening and was, and

I'm not going to judge
somebody's first transformation.

I don't. I don't even know
that's way, way, way above my

pay grade. Tell us a little bit
about, yeah, your paradigm there

and why you talk your method is
to talk people out of following

Jesus.

Mike Wiggin: If I would have
died before the age of 25 I

would have been 100% convinced
that I would stood in front of

Jesus one day and been able to
submit a resume to him of the

markers of church attendance the
multiple years I read through

the whole entire Bible, the
amount of people I brought to

church. The amount of people
who, because I brought them to

church, got baptized, and so on
and so on. And yet, none of

those things say have anything
to do with our true and actual

salvation. And so when you look
at the four soils in Scripture,

there's indicators throughout
there about how easily it is

when emotionalism is involved in
what I'll say, quote, unquote,

salvation. You know, the cares
of the world, the riches, all

these things that come and choke
that up. Or there was this

really high emotionalism towards
Jesus that is then immediately

snuffed out. And you really only
see this one way Jesus talks

about this so often throughout
Scripture. You know, the the

wide is the road is wide that
many people be on, but the path

is narrow that and few are going
to find that if I can talk you

out of salvation when you're
inquiring about it, then you're

not ready to surrender
everything you have. And I'll

give you a perfect example of
something that just came to

fruition for eight years. Okay,
I met this guy in the gym. In

gym culture, there's levels of
gym culture, so, and I don't

care what kind of gym you belong
to, if it's a CrossFit gym, if

it's a planet fitness, if it's a
bodybuilding gym, whatever,

there's levels of fitness. And I
was powerlifting at the time,

and I was probably the strongest
guy in my gym, at least one of

them, and this guy approached me
who the only reason he talked to

me was because I was stronger
than him. Now he was a very

angry, roid rage filled man.
Okay, he and I got very close,

and I talked him out of beating
people up in the gym constantly.

And so he appreciated me for
that.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, those
other people did too. They just

didn't know it. Oh yeah, for
sure,

Mike Wiggin: for sure. So, you
know, from the first time I met

him, I, you know, I started
talking about Jesus, and he

wanted absolutely nothing for
it, nothing to do with it. And

so his brother overdosed. He
came to me and said, hey, you

know, I don't believe in this
Jesus stuff, but can you pray

for my brother? His brother made
it, but that opened the door

even wider. And so each time
another tragedy happened in his

life, he came back and said, I'm
ready to be baptized. And I

showed that. That exact thing I
showed you. His name is Seth. I

said, Seth, this is what
surrender to Jesus looks like,

and he would cut the
conversation off. This literally

happened for eight years. This
summer, I'm riding my bike

through our bikeway here in our
city, and I'm turning a corner

this guy, Seth, has since moved
to Illinois. He's a police

officer, got his light cleaned
up, done an amazing job. And I

go to turn and got to go this
way instead. And I did. And I

come around the corner, and Seth
is walking towards me on this

bike path. And I stopped. I was
like, Seth, what the heck, what

are you doing here? He's like,
Oh, man, visiting family

members. And he's like, man,
I've been thinking about you a

lot. I wanted to reach out to
you and and I said, Well, it's

funny. I wasn't supposed to come
this way today, and God told me

to so what are we supposed to
talk about? We sit there and

talk to you guys. Dude, I am
ready to get baptized. And I did

the hand motion one more time,
and he just turned around and

walked away. I was like, Okay.
And so he texted me the next

day, and he goes, he said, Dude,
that freaked me out. He's like,

I am not ready for that. And I
said, That's okay, man. I said,

this is still the process. We
call this discipling people

towards salvation. I said,
you're still in that process,

and that's okay. The next day,
he texts me, and he goes, All

right, I couldn't sleep last
night. I have to surrender

everything. Man, I can't I can't
do this anymore. And so we met

next the next day at a coffee
shop. We're there four hours,

and I walk him through the
pathway that I walk people

through, and I said, Seth, this
is the last time that I'm going

to explain this to you about
what this is going to cost you.

He said, I know I'm ready. So we
walk outside of this coffee

shop, and he's bawling his eyes
out, surrendering his life to

Jesus right here on this
sidewalk in front of this coffee

shop. And it's an amazing,
beautiful picture. But if I

would have believed him the
first time he said, I'm ready

and I want to be baptized, I
would have baptized him into a

false salvation, because his
life was in a tragedy, and he

thought God might be the way out
of that. And so the reason why

we try to talk people out of
salvation, so to speak, is

because if, again, I'm going to
come back to this is the enemy's

plan, I am confident of it that
convinces people they need

Jesus, but not he doesn't show
them all of it, because He's

incapable of that, but will show
him is, is I'm going to Sit in

the service, I'm gonna get
emotionally charged, I'm gonna

raise my hand and I'm gonna pray
this prayer, and I'm gonna leave

and go, okay, I'm good now. And
that is not what salvation is.

And so I trained all of our
people, all the churches I led,

how to do this and to talk
people out of salvation. And we

never, ever. Once from our
stage, had you raise your hand

or pray a prayer, and we sat on
a couch with you and said, This

is what it means to follow
Jesus. This is what it's going

to cost you. Here's what people
came to Jesus and said, Here's

what he said back to them.
Here's how they turned around

and left, because he told them
to count the cost. Are you ready

to count the cost? And I stole a
line from Mark Driscoll, and I

know I probably shouldn't say
that name, but this is actually

a good line.

Jessie Cruickshank: Okay, wait,
wait, is this like his early

years before the very, very
beginning,

Mike Wiggin: super early. Yeah.
Okay, you knew anyone knew who

he was,

Jessie Cruickshank: all right,
I've got to do some tapping. You

just triggered me. But, like, I

Mike Wiggin: know Same here. I
almost didn't say his name, but

I can't plagiarize, even though
he did. But anyways, he said, he

used to say, salvation is the
easy part. The next 50 years is

the hard part. And I, and I
adopted that line because I

think it's true. I think it's
easy to see yourself as a savior

of your life, and realize, no
matter, even if it's a good

life, that something is still
missing. So for you to have

almost an easy believe ism or a
cheap grace or something like

that, that is easy. Yeah, Jesus,
I do want to follow you, you

know. But true salvation is the
next 50 years is the hard part,

because you're now a sojourner
and a missionary here. You don't

live here anymore. Your
citizenship has been transferred

to heaven, and so the rest of
your life on earth is going to

be difficult because you're now
facing an enemy that hates you.

And so that's why we try to talk
people out of salvation.

Jessie Cruickshank: You know, I
can think about people that I've

led to the Lord, and they, they
were having a very difficult

time in life. It was, they were,
they were trying to hook. They

were trying to hook on to God,
you know, did it not take? I

don't know they like, for me,
there's mystery there, right?

Because I don't think that
anything that we commit to God,

even if it's a little bit, is a
waste. But their story didn't

stay. It doesn't seem to have
stayed hooked to God, if you

will. And then other people same
level of desperation, at least

from my perception and like they
just jumped in with both hands

and have hung on. And yeah, even
the hardest part post, whatever

that was, was not as hard as the
way it was beforehand, you know.

And including, including my
husband, and he gave his life to

the Lord at 25 and he just had a
really good relationship with

God. And God introduced him to
Jesus, and he was like, Oh yeah,

that reminds me of the God I
knew, and he hasn't. He has an

easy faith compared to me. I was
raised in the church. I've had

to unlearn so much because I was
raised with an angry god who

didn't like us and saved us in
spite of ourselves, and he my

husband, was wooed into faith
through a loving God who

answered his prayers, who talked
to him, who was always present,

and then introduced him to
Jesus. And he's like, Yeah, that

makes sense. And I'm like, why
is faith so easy for you. No, it

makes me crazy. I think my
here's my takeaway. I've seen

lots of different story lines,
and I can't tell you why some

people have commitment issues
and some people don't, but the

commitment thing is super
fascinating to me as soon

especially when we think about
like Gen Z. The ones that that I

talked to, the ones that I hang
around, they believe in

commitment. Like they don't
commit, and if they do, then,

like, they take that super
seriously, which is why they

nobody dates, because that's a
level of commitment they I don't

know, like it plays itself out
in super interesting ways, but

they take commitment seriously,
and so go to church even though

they hate it and it's boring, or
they don't hate it, but it's

boring, and they're like, why do
I do this? I do this. That's

because that was what it means
to commit to being a follower of

Jesus. And we don't have an
alternative right now. So talk

to me about like, like, what you
see around commitment and what

you've experienced in that.
Like, yeah, what have you seen

as some of the difference
between the reasons why people

commit and reasons why people
don't?

Mike Wiggin: You set me up for a
lot of really good stuff, by the

way. Okay, so, so one of the, I
think the biggest key thing you

just said, there was a parallel
of you and your husband's

upbringing. I don't have to tell
you this, because you're an

expert in this, but everybody
deals with childhood trauma, and

I think our childhood informs
our adulthood, obviously. And I

think the church is so ill
equipped to help people process

that, that we our commitment
levels, I think initially, are

based solely out of what we've
seen growing up and how we've

grown up. You know, if you I was
just reading a study Harvard has

done a 75 year long study on
chores in adulthood, crazy, but

even something like that, you
know, just having your kids have

chores like people who grew up
and didn't have to do anything

in life, so they're going to
have a much different commitment

level than the kids whose
parents made them do chores.

Jessie Cruickshank: Hang on. For
those of you who haven't read

this study, the study is that
the the number one like they did

this, yeah, 75 year long study
on who was kind of successful in

life, like who had a good work
ethic, who who was able to keep

a job. I mean, they weren't.
They weren't looking at people

who became millionaires, but
just like people who could work

later. And the number one thing
they found across all socio

economic classes was whether or
not they had chores that they

were responsible for as
children, and that having chores

as kids meant that they were
more successful as adults in a

war in the world. So there you
go. Just Just as an aside for

anybody who hasn't, who isn't
familiar with that study?

Mike Wiggin: Yeah, it's
astonishing, honestly. And the

reason why I appreciate your
work so much on ordinary

disciple is I think the church
just does such a poor job of

discipling people after they
follow Jesus. We don't teach

them honestly what to do.
Because I think the church has

narrowed discipleship down to a
knowledge transfer of Come, sit,

come, watch, come, listen and
learn and bring your friends

back, and this is we're
discipling you. If the great

commission were laid out like
that, you and I wouldn't be

talking today, because it would
have stopped back then. So being

a disciple Maker Who makes
disciple makers, is what the

Great Commission is all about.
And so I think the alternative.

So the other thing that you set
me up for really well is Gen Z

not having another alternative,
which is why my wife and I left

the church we planted back in
August of 2023 and started what

we're doing now is for that
other alternative. I think the

biggest issue with western
church, well, I can't say the

biggest issue, because there's a
whole lot of them, but one of

the biggest issues is we've so
over complicated the system of

church, and we have made it I
feel like the way that it has

been led up to this point has
just done a complete disservice

to the way Jesus intended his
church to be going at this point

in history. Let's just say that
if you want to ask any other

questions, I'll be glad to
unpack what I mean by that.

Jessie Cruickshank: But we were
just we just don't seem to do

the things that that we were
asked to do, and we seem to do a

lot of things that God hasn't
asked us to do.

Mike Wiggin: That's right.
That's right. So we started an

organization called simple,
because Jesus made it quite

simple. The thing that I see
that frustrates me, one of the

most in churches today is they
put so many things as

stipulations on people who can
be involved, even as a door

reader, even as a just a
volunteer on a really minimal

role. And Jesus had none of
those. He drew a line in the

sand, so to speak, and said,
Look, if you follow me, it's

going to cost you everything.
Are you ready to follow me? Yes

or no. And the ones who said yes
changed the world forever. The

ones who said no probably
eventually came around, I would

assume, once they saw this was
real, but Jesus put no

stipulations on when he sent the
72 out, they had such little

training, and they came back
rejoicing, saying all the things

that they were doing, he's like,
yeah, no, don't celebrate that,

though. Just celebrate that your
name is written in heaven. And

so I would be celebrating
everything they were

celebrating. That was crazy. I

Jessie Cruickshank: know Me too.
I'm all like, Jesus, you're such

a downer on that one. Like,
don't

Mike Wiggin: you ever celebrate
the wins? Jesus?

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, come
on. I thought we were feasting

Jesus, because the bridegroom is
here.

Mike Wiggin: So you know, the
reason we started simple is

because I sat down as I felt
like the Lord was telling us to

leave our church plant. And by
the way, for context, our church

plant was coming up on 12 years
old, we planted six churches out

of it, couple house church
movements. We were disciple

making every day. There was
nothing wrong with what we were

doing, but I saw that it was
just still incomplete, because

there was such a drawback to
that Sunday. Expression of this

is this, is it for me that
disciple making was really

having a hard time outside of
that. So we left, and as I was

leaving, I sat down with the
Lord, and I said, I don't know

what you want me to do. And I
just started praying and fasting

and writing. And what he gave us
was something that we call

simple communities. And what
they are is it's a seven week

rhythm that repeats throughout
the year. There are communities

of 20 people or less. Four of
the weeks, these aren't

consecutive, by the way, but for
the weeks are a gathering, one

of the weeks we serve our city
together, one of the weeks we

throw a party, and one of the
weeks we have an extended family

reunion. And what we've tried to
do is keep the macro and the

micro together, if you will. And
so in our extended family

reunion, we take all of our
simple communities back into a

macro gathering. Learning,
typically in a local church in

our city, and a lot of times
I'll preach at those but all of

our simple communities come
together there. Our gathering

weeks are two hours long.
There's a look back, a look up

and a look ahead. So this is a
global practice, and we've taken

Global Practice and we've
matched it with American

culture, and that's how this was
developed, but there's care and

accountability on the front end.
There's discovery, Bible study

in the middle, and there is
practice in looking forward on

the end, we have seen biblical
engagement and biblical literacy

skyrocket through this because
it's so simple yet so deeply

profound. And the beauty is
everybody owns this. So everyone

is trained to do everything that
we do in our simple communities.

And Gen Z loves this model,
because they get to fully own

this together. And so there's no
expert in the room, and there's

nobody who any one person looks
to. Even though my wife and I

lead ours, I just had a guy do
our schedule out until May for

everybody who's going to do
everything that exists in our

gatherings. He didn't even
schedule me for one discovery

Bible study, and it's okay,
because my wife and I started

it. We're leading, but that's
not what it's about. So I'm

doing other parts of it.

Jessie Cruickshank: Us. There's
enough us to do all the things.

That's

Mike Wiggin: right. And even
though I've taught the Bible for

25 years in our city, he doesn't
schedule me to teach the Bible,

right? Okay, that's not what
it's about. So the Lord told us

this isn't to replace the
church. This is an alternative

for people who don't want to go
and sit in a church just like

the Gen Zers you just described.

Jessie Cruickshank: Think we're
coming into an age and a time

when there'll be a
diversification, because we got

introverts, we got extroverts,
we got people who are tired and

just need to go and sit in an
absorb. They're not consumers.

They're tired. Which is, which
is different, right? There's,

there's not a sense of
entitlement, it's a sense of of

watering. And introverts and
extroverts need different size

groups for that, right? So I
would, I would love us to have

so many different expressions of
Christian gathering that I can

be a part of something in any
season of my life, right? So

that there's, I don't come to a
season of life where I have to,

you know, neglect gathering or
not, have a people group who are

helping me with whatever it is
I'm dealing with, whatever I'm

going through, right? So I have
a place I can give when I'm in a

giving season. I have a place I
can receive when I am in a

receiving season, I can have a
place where I've got more time,

less time, you know, I just
think about all the rhythms in

different phases of life, and
how people have to leave their

faith community because their
rhythm of life changes and they

Can't and then, and then,
suddenly it doesn't work

anymore. And we've only got when
you've only got one model, then

they have to be alone, then they
have to pick, like, online

church or to watch somebody
else's sermon, which is good for

encouragement, but it's not
discipleship, right? Yes, that

person isn't discipling them.
They can't talk to them. Yeah,

you have to have a face to face
relationship. I would love that

we could find, we could have
different types of communities

and relationships for the
seasons of life. I think that

would be amazing. Yeah, go, do
it? Get on it, Mike,

Mike Wiggin: we're on it.
They're going and they're,

they're starting pretty rapidly.
It's pretty amazing.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, that's
because you get to, you get to

be involved, and you don't have
to wait through this long

process for someone to know you
enough to trust you, enough, to

include you enough, yeah. And I,
I always think like, if I have,

we have friends, we do river
family, we do river trips. We do

mountain trips, right? Yeah. If
I can, we can figure out how to

gather as knowns and unknowns.
Like, you know, let's say I know

60% of the people on a trip, and
we can figure it out, and it's a

flat structure. If we figure
that out, I think we can like,

like, church can be the same. A
faith gathering can be the same,

yeah? So if you can have
friends, you can have a church.

You can

Mike Wiggin: have a place.
That's right, that's right,

that's right.

Jessie Cruickshank: Mike, if
people want to know more about

your evangelism method, your
hope dealer training, you just

give us a little couple minutes
on that, like, what people where

people can get resources to
learn more about the things that

you're pioneering and and sure
developing. Yeah.

Mike Wiggin: So kind of our
parent organization, if you

will, this is going to make us
sound way more professional than

we are, but it's x2 networks. So
x2 networks.org, the reason for

that name is x is the symbol for
multiplication. Anything that's

squared multiplies from within
itself and goes exponential,

which is what we're trying to
do. So x2 networks.org. Is our

website, our hope dealer
training. It's six sessions. The

first one is, what is my
identity? Because one of the

things that I have realized over
the years is when somebody is a

brand new follower of Jesus.
They they are very passionate,

and they tell everyone about
that, and then the enemy goes to

work. He starts convincing you
of lies. And I honestly think

the number one reason why people
don't share the hope of Jesus

with other people is because
it's no longer good news to

them. And so I think every
follower of Jesus wants their

lost friends and family to come
to know Jesus. I don't think

they're evil, and I don't think
it's introversion and

intimidation. I honestly think
they've believed enough lies.

It's no longer good news to
them. And so we do a lot of work

on identity there, but then the
second one is how to tell your

story. So we teach a 32nd
version, we teach a three minute

version, we teach a mosaic
approach and then a long term

approach. In that particular
training, the hardest part for

people is what I call a bridge
conversation. And a bridge

conversation is something that
you can say, that the person can

react to or completely ignore.
So that is a bit of an art to

figure that out, but it's so
helpful in everyday

conversation, because somebody,
as you continue to introduce

bridge conversations, will go,
Wait a minute. What do you mean

by that? You've said that a
couple times. What does that

mean? Or it can completely
ignore it. The reason why that's

hard is because I trained
followers of Jesus. They wanted

Jesus people to death, and not
in the good way, and so having

them unlearn that is really
hard. The third one is

overcoming barriers. So I talk
about the four root idols of

power, approval, comfort and
control, because if we're not

going to share our story, it's
going to go back to one of those

four reasons. And too often we
treat surface idols and never

actually get to the root. The
fourth one is the art of

listening, because that is a
lost art form. So we teach you

how to listen and respond to
people. The fifth one is the art

of the ask. So you have to get
to the point where you are

asking the question, what would
keep you from sending your life

to Jesus this day? And we give
you really practical tools how

to do that. And then the sixth
one is how to multiply a hope

dealer. And we teach you in that
one a red, yellow and green

light response. Teach you how to
lead a discovery session through

discovery Bible studies. That is
is designed to lead people,

disciple people, towards
salvation. And then we, we teach

you how to actually take and do
this on your own. And so that's

our hope, dealer training. And
then our simple communities we

have. We have every guide laid
out exactly how to do every

single thing that we do. It's
it's not a control organization,

it's a coaching org. So any of
them that we launch, we coach

you until you've got it, and
then we'll ask you to use your

simple community as an incubator
to launch other simple

communities. We don't like to
cut them in half for the sake of

multiplication, because that
interrupts your spiritual

family. And so we have that
training as well.

Jessie Cruickshank: As we lean
into complexity, you can lean

into the doing more, doing more
and, and, and then you got to

try to figure out how to make
all those pieces connect. And it

gets exhausting. You've done
that far enough, and you realize

this is a lot of work, and I
don't even think it's working.

And you go back to the
beginning, and by the beginning,

I mean x and say, Okay, what did
they do? What did they not do?

What do they not do? Right? And
can I not do all the things they

not do? It gets it gets really
simple and doable in in a life

that's hard and full of
responsibilities, and it

actually becomes life giving
again, instead of this machine

or this industry, we have to
keep going. So

Mike Wiggin: okay, we just
baptized three people this fall.

As soon as we baptize them, they
said, Hey, our neighborhood

needs one of these simple
communities. I said, Yes, it

does, and we're going to show
you how to do it. And I said,

Okay, we had two parties where
we invited their neighbors. We

just launched their simple
community last week. All their

neighbors came. Their neighbors
have committed. And these people

have been followed to do this
for like, three months, and

because we do the mall method,
model, assist, watch and leave.

I'm there modeling for them
tonight. They're going to assist

me, and then we're going to
we're going to start moving down

the process. But if you were to
ask them, like, where the book

of John is at, they don't know,
but they do know that they're

being coached, and they're being
supported, and they're being

trained, and the people are
thriving in the simple

community. So that is the beauty
and the simplicity I feel like

of the early church days, where
nobody really knew anything

about anything, but they're
thriving in this life giving. So

yes, it works, amazing.

Jessie Cruickshank: So beautiful
God. It's like God knows what

he's doing.

Mike Wiggin: Babe, I know,
right, it's

Jessie Cruickshank: crazy, man.
Well, Mike, is always good to

have you. It's always good to
hang out with you. Just really

appreciate who you are, how you
think, how you see the world,

and how, yeah, the love that
just kind of, I don't know if

people can feel it over the the
audio. But you know, anytime I'm

with you, you, you exude joy.
And yeah, appreciate you.

Mike Wiggin: So thank you so
much for having me on

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. And so
if you're listening to this and

you want to know more about
ordinary discipleship, which is

training on how to be the
people, Mike actually uses it in

his stuff he didn't, I'll say
that part form. So we trade we

trade materials. But you can
learn more at about ordinary

discipleship@hooology.co. That's
W, H, O, o, l, o, G, y.co,

there's an online class, a Bible
study that you can do with

people and help them think about
how they've been changed by

Jesus, so they can share that
and share their story with one

another. And yeah, some other
some other resources, we'll tell

you more about here in just a
sec. Thanks for being with us.

You.