Jessie Cruickshank: Hello and
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship podcast. I have two
of my friends with me today. We

have Jeff and Sid holzclaw, and
we are going to talk about their

amazing new book, landscapes of
the soul, which talks about

attachment theory. And you guys
know I'm all brain science and

how we communicate with each
other, how we work together. So

I'm really excited to have Jeff
and sit on would you guys take a

minute and just introduce
yourselves to our audience here?

Cyd Holsclaw: Well, we are your
new friends, so that's probably

the most important thing that
people need to know about us.

We've been married for 25 years,
and we've been pastors together.

We do some ministry stuff
together outside of churches,

we've launching two young men
into the world. One of them is

22 and the other one is turning
21 soon, and we live in

Michigan, and Jeff is excited
that the cubs are in the

playoffs, and I'm trying to tame
my garden for the fall. And

that's kind of what life looks
like for us on a daily basis

right now, because, you know, we
don't work because we work at

home. So everybody thinks that
when you work at home, you don't

actually do anything. So,

Jessie Cruickshank: so Jeff,
what do you do here?

Geoff Holsclaw: What do I do
here? I am, I mostly just add a

lot of competitive spirit around
board games and card games, and

I am celebrating that the cubs
are in the postseason, but

that'll probably, by the time
this airs, this is, they'll

probably have already lost, but
that's fine. I had, I don't know

I'm like the big researching
nerd, and Sid's the much more

practical one, but I'm growing
in my practical social emotional

skills, and I'm

Cyd Holsclaw: growing in my
research. So we're evening each

other

Jessie Cruickshank: out. So
probably the most like, the

question that's probably top of
everybody's mind right now is

Ticket to Ride or Catan?

Cyd Holsclaw: Ticket to Ride

Geoff Holsclaw: neither. I mean,
I like both. I like we haven't

played either one in forever. So
we, our friends got us we have

recently become f1 racing fans
and our friends got us a racing

board game called heat, which is
incredibly well done as a board

game, and it has recently
brought up all the unsanctified

I get grumpy when I'm losing
aspects which I thought I had

mostly dealt with, but I
definitely have not

Jessie Cruickshank: well. So if
you're out there and you are

wondering, what is the best
Christmas present you You heard

it here? You heard it here? Heat
the board game, the board game

that brings out all of your
marital family angst, so that

you now have something to talk
to your therapist about thought

you were good.

Geoff Holsclaw: And for the
actual board game interested

people, it comes with, like,
multiple, like, advanced levels,

like, there's a kind of an easy
Starter Edition, and then it

gets, like, more difficult. You
could add layers to it. It's

actually very fun. So when I'm
not very frustrated,

Cyd Holsclaw: and He's usually
very frustrated because I seem

to have a winning streak on this
game.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh man, we took
it on vacation. She beat me like

nine times in a row. He

Cyd Holsclaw: doesn't want to
acknowledge that there's any

skill involved. I'm just getting
lucky. How

Jessie Cruickshank: can wait?
What's most fascinating to me

right now about this is that I
would not play a game I have

just lost nine times in a row.
I'd be like, No, this game is

over. Like we are done. You can
just know that you're the winner

forever and I'm we're gonna find
something else. Now, if I win

nine times in a row and my
husband Bob stops playing, then

he's just kind of a sore loser,
but for me, like, I will give

you the title and the trophy and
crown, and I'm done losing.

Well, let's talk about your
book. For you know, some time

here, because I've your book is,
well, it's, it's beautiful. I

think it's so clear, it's so
well written. And as someone

like, like, I just really value
those kinds of texts that you

can hand to somebody else, and
they don't need a degree in

anything in order to read it.
I'm glad to see, well that there

are more of those out there than
there used to be. Everything

used to require interpretation.
But for our listeners who

haven't probably read your book,
yet the landscape of the soul.

Will you tell us how you think
about attachment theory and the

beautiful way that you describe
the different strategies that we

have in trying to cope with
life?

Cyd Holsclaw: Well, we like to
think of attachment theory. I

mean, there's lots of different
ways you can explain it and

describe it, but I think I like
to talk about it in the steps

required in order to build it,
because that, like makes it very

practical and tangible. So we're
talking about the relationship

between a child and their
attachment figure, so the family

that they're born into, usually,
most often and. The way that

attachment gets built is through
a combination of a joyful

connection upon arrival into
this world. So baby is born,

parents are thrilled. There's
joy, there's gladness to be with

baby. Is happy to be with
family. Family is happy to be

with baby. So there's this
joyful connection, lots of

shared smiles and affection, and
then on top of that joyful

connection, that foundation has
built these two capacities for

intimacy and independence in the
child, and that is done through

a parenting combination of
offering care and sort of

attunement to your child,
helping them to feel felt and

seen and known and understood,
and then also offering them

gentle challenges and
encouragement to go out into the

world and to explore. And so
through those dynamics, a kid

builds intimacy and
independence, these equal

capacities, and then through
those intimacy and independence

capacities, they also end up
things end up going wrong, which

then introduces this process of
rupture and repair. So things go

wrong, and then those ruptures,
in their intimacy or in their

independence are then repaired.
And if there is a good rhythm of

rupture and repair, then that
builds into the child. These

defaults of someone is available
to me at all times, and this

distress that I'm currently
enduring is going to go away at

some point. It's not going to
last forever. And I actually

have some power over my life in
this world, like when I can act

in the world and the world, you
know, and I can influence the

world around me. And so when
those defaults then are like

intact in that way, then that's
what we would say, is a securely

attached child who then spends
their life living in the

pasture, the green pasture, with
the Good Shepherd, based on

Psalm 23 where the Lord is my
shepherd and I lack nothing,

just the confidence that he's
with me even in the darkest

places, and that I dwell in the
house of the Lord forever. And

so that's how I would just I
know it's a little longer than

one sentence, but it feels like
a sort of a very robust

understanding of what we're
talking about with how

attachment forms, how it
happens. And then, because your

listeners are brain science
people, I assume because you

are, the way that that impacts
our nervous system for the rest

of our lives is that, you know,
we have this general sense of

safety in our own bodies, this
general sense of like I have

what it takes in the world, and
so I can take risks, and I can

also seek comfort, and, yeah,
it's just this very secure

feeling of I am worthy of
connection and belonging, and

the world is somewhat Okay, and
I can go explore it, and it's

not gonna it's not gonna destroy
me, right? It's not gonna

destroy me. I'm not a passive
victim of the world. I'm

actually an actor. I'm an agent.
I'm a participant.

Jessie Cruickshank: So what are
the How would you guys describe

then the two insecure attachment
conditions and strategies?

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, what Sid
was talking about the

development of capacities for
intimacy and independence. And

you can kind of put those on a
grid. So if you have, like, high

capacity for both connecting
with people and receiving that

connection of independence, as
well as high capacity for

independence, did I get that
right? Did I say that wrong?

Intimacy and independence, that
would be like in the pasture,

right? So, but you could think
of this grid as people having

high capacity or high longing
for intimacy, but low, maybe

capacity for independence or the
reverse. So someone so we call

someone in the jungle who, for
different reasons, usually

inattentive or inconsistent
care. They're someone who their

body and nervous system, their
whole way of processing the

world, is prioritizing
relationships, and sometimes

that's called Becoming hyper
vigilant. And so they're

pursuing intimacy in
relationships in some fashion,

and they usually kind of
sacrifice then their

independence because of that. So
the jungle? Well, maybe you

said, Maybe you should be
talking about the jungle, right?

What you want to jump in and
fill that one out?

Cyd Holsclaw: Sure, yeah, it's
a, it's, it's sort of a, your

priority, your way of protecting
yourself, because these are

protection strategies, right?
Living in the pasture is more of

like, you know, because your
nervous system can either

protect yourself or connect with
others, but doesn't do a very

good job of doing both of those
things at the same time. So

pasture life is like, I can be
connected with people as like I

can offer connection as my
priority much of the time. Of

course, I'm still going to
protect myself at times, but

these other landscapes, or these
non secure attachments, are.

Sort of protection strategies
that you've come up with. And so

the jungle protection strategy
is to stay in relationship,

connected to your people at all
costs. And so that can look like

compromising your own needs,
compromising your own values,

doing things or not saying
things that are important to

you, because you don't want to
risk the connection that you

have with another person. And
that hyper vigilance comes in in

the sense of, like, I am going
to watch my people at all times

and make sure that my people are
okay and that we're connected,

and the moment we're
disconnected, it's probably

because I wasn't watching, or I
wasn't vigilant enough, or

something I did cause the
problem. So people in the jungle

tend to blame themselves for
when things go wrong in their

relationship, and they tend to
prioritize the relationship over

all else. So there aren't any
rules. There aren't any

standards. It's hard to
recognize patterns, because you

want to see everything is unique
and specific for the sake of

staying connected. So those are
sort of some of the markers of a

jungle attachment, which in the
attachment literature, it would

be the preoccupied or the
anxious. That would be the

Jessie Cruickshank: jungle. I
love. I love that you use the

illustration of the jungle,
because almost everything can

kill you in a jungle, like

Cyd Holsclaw: it's just not Yes,
and you have to be on your guard

at all times. You have to be
aware and alert.

Geoff Holsclaw: But also in a
jungle, you could have many

majestic encounters with
waterfalls or, you know, the

birds, right? So it's, it's both
high highs and low lows that

could switch on it in an
instant. And for us, we kind of

use that, that metaphor, that
landscape metaphor, because you

can't see that far in a jungle,
right? So you're really in the

moment, always just kind of
reacting. And so that's kind of

like a metaphor for how the
relationship, like you and your

relationships kind of function,
high highs, low lows in the

moment, reacting. So then the
opposite would be the desert. So

the metaphor for the desert is
something that is very regular,

right? The sun is hot. If you're
exposed to the sun in the middle

of the day, you will get burned.
Water is scarce, right? These

things are regular and reliable.
You plan for them, and if you

don't plan for them, then you
know it's your fault. Is kind of

the idea. And you can also think
of like the desert as a

relational wasteland, right? So
your relationships are not deep.

You're on your own in one sense.
And so this is the world where

you prioritize independence at
the expense of intimacy. So this

comes from a caregiving
environment, typically, where

maybe your physical needs were
taken care of, but maybe not,

but your social, emotional kind
of life was not cared for,

acknowledged. It certainly
wasn't fostered. It wasn't like

helped to grow. Maybe you were
ignored when you kind of either

cried or gave out kind of
emotional information. However

you expressed your emotions, you
were maybe ignored or you're

outright punished, like told
that that part of you is not

welcome here. So obviously, when
you receive that kind of message

long enough, then that part of
you just kind of dies or just

kind of goes away, right? So
that's kind of slowly going into

the desert. And so in the
desert, you learn that your your

actions are most important, that
you're kind of on your own. If I

need help, I will do it myself.
That the world is very, kind of

regulated by rules. And so
instead of like the jungle,

where relationships are way more
important than any rules in the

desert, the rules are most
important. I figured out how the

world works. I follow the rules.
It keeps me at the appropriate

distance from people. So rules
are more important than

relationships. The way this
worked out, like as a practical

example in our family was around
bedtime. And I'm sure listeners

with young children, they
understand that that's always

some crisis moment every single
day. And so I was someone in the

desert, you know, and Sid and I
had organized. We've decided

what bedtime would look like,
what the order would be, when it

would start, when it would, for
sure, finish. So that is the

rule. We've decided in the rule.
So then I see Sid putting the

kids down, and she's not
following the rules. I was like,

you know? And she's like, in the
jungle, she's like, ah, you

know, they wanted one more book,
and we were cuddling, and it was

so precious. How could I stop,
right? So the rules aren't as

important as the relationship.
And I'm like, No, the rule was

the rule we this is, like, this
is good for everybody, if we

just follow this rule, you know?
And I'm looking at her like she

just can't, you know, you know,
whatever, she's terrible mother,

and she's looking at me as
you're a terrible father, like,

I can't believe you don't want
to be with your children murder,

right? So we're just and we're
living in different landscapes,

trying to parent our kids. And
we really are looking at the

world all the. Experiences all
this information, we're looking

at it totally differently. And
so that's that's kind of once we

started realizing that for each
other, we're like, oh, this is

if we can have compassion for
each other and ourselves in the

way we view the world and then
help hopefully grow towards

secure attachment, that'd be
great. And really, the book is

all about, how can we do that
spiritually,

Cyd Holsclaw: too. And so on
that note, before we leave that,

I just want to leave the little
statement here we you know,

because Jeff's priority for the
rules, we came came up with the

phrase, you're technically
right, but you're relationally

wrong. So of like, yes, that is
the rule that technically that

is right. But in this moment,
it's you're not doing any you're

not doing your relationships any
favors by clinging to that

particular rule in this moment.
I'm not necessarily referring to

bedtime, but you know some of
the other moments

Jessie Cruickshank: and you guys
describe the disorganized

strategy, which is no strategy,
slash all the strategies in the

puzzle box mixed together as a
wasteland. What is, how does

that manifest?

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, we actually
talk about it as a war zone,

because it's this conflict,
right, this experience of

conflict, both outside of you
and inside of you. And so you're

conflicted between. I really
want to be close with people. I

want that intimacy, but I'm also
really scared of it, and so I'm

moving toward and that often
comes from an environment where

there's been active abuse or
extreme neglect, where you're

trying you you need to move
toward the people that can help

you, but they're also often the
people that are hurting you, or

you're experiencing some kind of
pain in their presence, And so

that conflict outside of you
becomes internalized, and you

end up with a conflict inside of
you where you're going back and

forth. You know, this is where
you know an understanding of

parts is really helpful, where
you have a part of you that

really wants to attach with
other people, but then you have

this other part of you that just
feels like it has to live in

defensive mode all the time. And
so attachment is terrifying, and

so that conflict within is what
we call the worst

Jessie Cruickshank: thing. It
just totally makes me think of

like a World War One landscape.
I mean, given that that's my

default, like relationships,
sure, maybe I can walk over here

and maybe I'm just gonna get
blown up. You don't really know,

yeah, but you know the food cash
is over there. So what are you

gonna

Cyd Holsclaw: do? Yeah, you're
gonna risk your own life and

limb to get to the thing that
you know is going to keep you

alive.

Jessie Cruickshank: So I love, I
love the descriptions of the

different landscapes, because it
creates an embodied

understanding of what it's like
to live in these different

states. For you all, why did you
feel like it was important to

describe and create landscapes
as a description for these

different states of attachment
or strategies? Because there is,

there is attachment literature
out there, right? So you can

read the clinical description,
you can read a relational

description, but you guys took
the time to paint pictures, and

I just want to, like, hear from
your heart, or what do you why

did you think it was important
to do that and add it to the

conversation?

Geoff Holsclaw: For me, I'm a
visual learner, and Sid and I

are both, like, teachers at
heart, right? So we're always

like, how can we communicate
this? How can we put it, like,

on the bottom shelf, so that
people and like, you know,

Jesse, like, if you read enough
attachment literature, oh my

gosh, it is, like, pretty dense.
People use the same words

differently, or use different
words to explain it. Like it's

all over the place. And there's
reasons for that which we don't

have to get into, right? So part
of it was instead of kind of

deciding on, well, are we going
to use this language instead of

this language instead of this
language or this like, we're

just like, what if we just
create a different language? And

for me, it was really important
to kind of have, like, a really

sticky way of explaining it. And
so I think the jungle and the

desert kind of came pretty
early. We're like, oh yeah,

those are, like, people will get
that. And I've been really

encouraged because we have a
couple we have a friend who does

a lot of, like, international
missions work, and he says he's

already using it, like, all over
the world. He's like, you can

just talk about a jungle, like
anyone in the world has some

sort of image of a jungle in a
desert in a war zone. And so

it's just really easy to, like,
get into conversation. So that's

been really encouraging. So
that's that's kind of, I'm just

like, trying to teach myself
these things. So that's for me,

where it came from. I don't know
what you want to add SID to

that.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, for me, I
think it was really important to

find language that felt more
neutral, to describe where

people find themselves. Because
I know my experience of reading

about attachment, when I first
read about it was pretty

devastating. It was like, you
are insecure and broken and

anxious, and here's how all of
your relationships are going to

be twisted, and here's how it
was just really discouraging to

me, like it was like an aha,
like, Oh, this is what I'm this

is what I'm experiencing. But it
was also just felt really like

you're anxious, you're anxious.
All the time. You're

preoccupied, you're anxious,
you're and it just felt like I

already had enough sort of shame
and frustration with my life not

working the way that I wanted it
to, that then to have sort of

these feelings compounded on top
of it just felt like, oh, you

know, and then like, if you're
in the if you're in the desert,

you're you're avoidant, you're
dismissive, they're just really

negative ways of understanding.
And it's sort of like, you know,

the language that we try to use
throughout the book is that

these are strategies, and
there's so much wisdom in the

strategy that you developed
because you're here, and so to

be able to think about like,
Well, yeah, if you grew up in a

jungle, of course, you developed
skills and tools to survive in a

jungle. That just makes sense.
It's logical. And so we don't

need to automatically put it
into this shameful place of

like. And here are all the
labels that we can use to

describe you because of the way
that you survived, it's more

like, well, can we just honor
those strategies that you

developed and see that there's
actually incredible gifts that

you have to offer the world
because of these survival

strategies that you developed?
And then can we also round out

your strategies? Because you
might feel like you're living in

a jungle, but you're actually
living in a pasture. And so how

can we help you start to start
to lay down or to pick up, you

know, sort of, if the only thing
that you have available to you

is a machete, life is going to
look a particular way. But if

you also have, you know, like
protection from the hot sun, and

if you also have ways to find
green pasture like then you have

more options. You're not just
going through your whole life

using a machete. And so that's
what that's what felt important

to me, and it also resonated
with my experience of living

with Jeff of like the way that
he sees and experiences the

world isn't necessarily
inherently better or worse than

the way that I see and
experience the world. They're

just radically different. And so
it just felt like we are

approaching the world as if it
is a different place. And so

that just made sense to me of
like, well, yeah, if I'm living

like I'm in a jungle, and you're
living like you're in a desert.

It's no wonder we want to do
different things, and we have

different perspectives on what's
happening around us. That just

makes sense. So that's why it
was important to me to sort of

remove some of the clinical,
diagnosed, diagnostic kind of

language

Jessie Cruickshank: that's
really beautiful. What I what I

love about that is just the the
honor that you give to each of

those different strategies as a
war zone. I've grown up in a war

zone. I mean, literally, there
was violence in my home and

things like that, like and then
I married somebody who was

securely attached, like I had no
grid for for the reality that he

operated in. So unfortunately,
one of us was right and the

other one was wrong about live
in the world. But, you know, he

can, he can be right about
things. But it was such a it was

such an education to to sit next
to somebody and experience

experience, that they understood
the world in a completely

different way that I just had no
imagination for and occasionally

struggle. I mean, I've earned
secure attachment at this point,

but after being married 2022,
years, but still there, there

are moments I'm like, wait,
wait, you don't worry about

that. You don't, you don't
question that. You're not. You

don't struggle with that. I
don't, I don't even, yeah, it's

sometimes there are places he
lives. I can't even, I can't

even imagine so. But I love the
way that you guys honor each

other in that dynamic and and
find the there are. There is

value to the different coping
strategies, you know, dealing

with life strategies so you
could, what was something that

you learned from each other that
you're like, oh, that's actually

a good thing. I'm gonna, I'm
gonna, maybe if I don't know how

to do it, I'm at least gonna
make space for it. Yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw: Well, I think one
of the things I learned from

Jeff was the ability to sort of
step outside of my experience

and look at it like Jeff is
better, you know, like we talked

about when you're in a jungle,
you jungle, you're immersed in

your experience, right? It's
only the present moment. You

can't see very far. And I think,
you know, and there's some

trauma in my background as well.
And so it was like, you know,

when you're sort of when your
past has invaded your present,

and you're living in the present
moment, as if something in the

past is still going on. I think
the thing that Jeff has helped

me to be able to do is say,
Okay, wait a minute. This is not

an appropriate response for the
situation that I'm in, or like

something is going on here
that's making me react wildly to

this. How can I step outside of
it? Sort of give myself some

perspective. More of that desert
long view, and be able to say,

Okay, what is going on here
that's beyond this moment? And

how can I observe myself rather
than only experience myself? And

so I think that was something
that was a real strength of his

that I was lacking, and so that,
you know, and then that there's

been a lot of growth that comes
from that ability to step

outside of my experience and
observe myself. I mean, it's

huge.

Geoff Holsclaw: My journey is
kind of like the opposite, you

know, where I would either
internally or I'd say it out

loud, which was never helpful,
which is, well, you shouldn't

feel that way about this
situation. Which is, it good?

It's like, well, telling people
that doesn't help. So I think

that was kind of my journey. Was
be like, hey, I need for myself

included, but then also just
with, you know, whether it's my

with my children, or sit or with
other people, like being in the

moment, in the emotion, with
people, and allowing that to be

okay without rushing to the
whatever else needs to be going

on. So that's that, that
movement to be more present. All

sorts of things we could say
about that, but, yeah, that's,

that's the main kind of thing,
and that's what we are, our kind

of hope. And this is where,
like, what Sid said, it's like,

it's not really in the
attachment literature, which is,

there's good things about these
attachment strategies, the

insecure attachment strategies,
and so we, you know, it's like

they're they're not bad, they're
lopsided, and they were, they

helped you survive when you were
a child, but they're not

necessarily helping you thrive
as an adult in the relationships

you have. And how do you thrive
where you're at now is to have a

more balanced kind of toolkit
for how you live life, and

that's what secure attachment
gives you. Is the ability to

pursue intimacy with the right
tools in a life giving way, or

to practice intimacy in the
right way. And to do both those

two things together, and to be
able to toggle between them

effectively, is what we need to
thrive. And you know, the

insecure attachments, especially
the jungle in the desert, they

kind of get lopsided. And then
the war zone, like you said,

just has a conflict, like, it's
grabbing for tools, and it

doesn't even know why, and then
it's throwing them away, even

though it worked five minutes
ago. And then you're like, so

it's just all over the place.
And so how do we kind of become

people who can use all the tools
at the right time in the right

way, is kind of the goal.

Jessie Cruickshank: So for you
guys, then how long into your

relationship did it take for you
to realize that you were seeing

the world a different way? And
then how long like, like, when?

When did you learn to appreciate
the way that the other person

saw, just to give a little bit
of the timeline grid for for our

listeners,

Geoff Holsclaw: oh, probably
right away. So we didn't have

any of this attachment language
for 15 plus years into our

marriage. But I think pretty
quick, right? Said we're like,

oh yeah. Like, we're seeing,
like, literally our first year

of marriage. I would, I would
blurt out to sit, I'm not your

dad. Stop projecting that stuff
on me, which is one of those

things where it's like, that's
probably, technically true. She

probably was projecting on me,
but in the moment, like, I

couldn't say a dumber thing,
right? So I think pretty soon we

were, I don't know that's my
sense, yeah.

Cyd Holsclaw: And I think my,
you know, mine right away was

like, you know, we moved to a
new place, or meeting all these

new people, and I'm watching
Jeff interact with people he

doesn't know. And I'm just like,
you're so like, the way that you

approach people and treat people
and think about people is just

so foreign to me. It makes no
sense whatsoever. And like, you

know, like some of the social
niceties and things. Was just

like, I, I had only known him in
a context where he knew people,

and so watching him, you know,
try to get to know people of

just like, This is how you do
relationships. This is weird.

And, you know, just those simple
things like that, where it's

just like, I don't understand
you at all. And like, it was

just, yeah, I mean, very quickly
it was like, you make no sense

to me. Yeah, yeah,

Jessie Cruickshank: oh, man.
Well, that's gonna encourage

someone out there. I think I
feel like, Oh, you you don't

understand them because they're
in a different place in the

attachment landscape. And you
guys, you can find each other,

you can you can create a space
together. Yeah, well, to shift

gears just a little bit, I have
experienced critiques from

people who are kind of against
psychology. So as an ordained

minister and you guys teach at a
seminary, you know people who

are interested and care about
spiritual formation, there are.

There's a paradigm out there
where anything besides the Bible

is just off limits. It's it's
the human invention, and that we

only need the Bible, and that
everything we need is in

Scripture, and so anything else
is. In addition to Scripture. So

I don't know if you, if you
guys, have encountered that, but

what do you what do you think
about that and and why do you

think it's important for those
of us who are interested in

spiritual formation, we want to
be disciple makers. We want to

help other people be changed by
Jesus. Why do you think it's

important for us to know about
attachment and about how we form

relationships.

Geoff Holsclaw: So I was raised
fundamentalists, so I was much

more in that, like anti
psychology. So on the one hand,

I do want to give an
understanding of that

perspective, because when you
look at the historical roots of

psychology and even some parts
of sociology, others, like they

were coming out of the
Enlightenment, and they were

kind of militantly anti
Christian, anti religion, like

their goal was to overthrow
religion, right? So there is,

there's, there's a, there's a
reason for this antagonism. Now

I don't think we have to live in
that antagonism. I think all

those fields have actually
matured out of those kind of

very anti religious roots, and
most of them have basically,

like, figured out, oh, a core
piece of humanity is

spirituality and religion in
some fashion, like, we can't,

like, against their hopes and
dreams to get rid of religion.

They prove it out, right? Yeah,
it's just so. But some kind of

churches, denominations and kind
of theological traditions kind

of have it move past those ugly
days of antagonism, so they

still live there. So that that'd
be one of just like, hey, you

know, psychology has kind of
earned the antagonism a little

bit so, but I think we've
outgrown that. Partly, the

reason why I'm so drawn to
attachment theory is because it

kind of lives in a parallel
universe to a lot of the

psychological theories, and not
to go into history of all this

stuff for but, but it is kind of
the name is attachment theory,

but it's actually very data
driven, like it's instead of

theorizing about, you know,
stuff, the way Freud did, by

just talking to patients and
then making up theories. You

know, Bowlby, John Bowlby and
Mary Ainsworth and others.

They're just like, hey, let's
watch children, see how they

interact with their parents and
and then when they're in

distress, what do they do? And
then when the distress gets

alleviated, what do they do? And
let's just, right, so it was

very data, very observation
driven, which I find, you know,

super helpful. And so I so in
that sense, I think it has,

like, more of an actual
scientific background. And then

I know, I Jesse, you're very
much into the neuroscience,

like, and I think attachment
theory has dovetailed with our

neuroscience findings so easily,
so clearly. So there's a lot of,

like, really good science behind
it. So and then said, I'll let

you kind of fill this in, but
for me, like when in John 114 it

says, you know, and the word
took on flesh and dwelt among

us. And there's so many other
things in Scripture too, but

there's a powerful affirmation
of us created in God's image,

with our human bodies that are
essential for this path of

discipleship, of salvation, of
sanctification, whatever words

you use for that. And Jesus did
not score in having a physical

body. And so what can we learn
about how God has made us to

help supercharge or align or
partner with what God's trying

to do with us as whole beings?
And so that's always kind of, my

conviction is we've kind of
lived in a certain

enlightenment, antibody
trajectory for so long that's

kind of done harm and and it's
actually made us read the Bible

poorly. So a lot of times when
people are like, Oh, I just want

to read the Bible, you're like,
well, you're reading the Bible

in a certain way. That's kind of
bad. And some of this attachment

and neuroscience, like when we
teach people attachment and

neuroscience, they're like, Oh,
the Bible's like, it's coming

alive for me again, as because
it helps you see all the very

embodied, very relational
aspects that have always been

there, but part of our western

Jessie Cruickshank: tradition,
right? Because if you, if you

read scripture from an avoidant
attachment paradigm, you will

read an avoidant attachment god,
yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yes, which then
downplays emotions and downplays

embodiment. We there was a guy
who, I think was avoiding

attachment at one of our
previous churches, we would do

the public reading of Scripture.
He would always read angry, like

his tone of voice was always
stern and angry. And we're like,

I'm not sure God sounds like
that, like you're reading a

joyful Psalm. It shouldn't sound
so down, right? But I think like

he's just kind of like you said,
you know, you have this kind of

avoidant attachment, which you
bring into your reading and

practice of Scripture, and it
just becomes self reinforcing.

So for sure, yeah,

Cyd Holsclaw: I would answer the
same way, just basically like,

when we can, I think it's so
important, because when we can,

like, create and offer
discipleship pathways for people

that are in line with the way
that our brains and bodies are

designed to function. Like,
yeah, like Jeff used the word

supercharged, right? We can.
Supercharge our faith rather

than trying to work against our
design, you know. And because we

find ourselves in different
attachment landscapes, we need

different things in order to
grow in our discipleship, too.

And so that's the other thing
that I think is really

important, is that so much of
the time, you know, in a

particular church community,
it's like, this is the path of

discipleship. These are the
things that we all need to be

doing. And, you know, here's the
formula, and here's the plug and

play, and then you find yourself
going, I don't have the same

experience that everybody around
me seems to have. What is wrong

with me? Why am I not able to
connect with this like other

people are, which doesn't do
anybody any favors, because it's

not actually that you're not
able to connect with God or that

you're not able to grow. It's
just that you're being given a

pathway that isn't necessarily
meeting you where you are and

helping you move into the
pasture. Yeah, and going back to

like what you said when you read
Scripture through your

attachment lenses and through
the filters that you have, like,

I used to hear Jesus's tone of
voice as pretty stern and

irritated most of the time,
right? So even coming to

Bartimaeus and saying, like,
what do you want me to do for

you is very different than,
like, what do you want me to do

for you, right? Totally
different tones of voice, but

when we read Scripture, we hear
what we're reading, we visualize

what we're reading like our our
act, our minds and our

imaginations are actively at
play when we're reading

scripture, and so if we're not
aware of how our views of the

world and ourselves and of other
people and of God have been

shaped by the stories we've
lived. Then, it's no wonder we

have so many voracious arguments
about what Scripture means.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, sorry to
jump in again, but like one

example of often, like the Bible
only crowd, and you know, I

loved this verse growing up. It
was Romans, 12, two do not be

conformed to the pattern this
world, but be transformed. How,

by the renewing of your mind.
See, it's our thoughts that

matter. It's our thoughts. We
must have true doctrine and

right belief. And then from that
will flow right behavior, right

So, so you grab onto that, and
then we just totally forget that

Paul in the previous verse that
just said, Therefore, in view of

God's great mercy, offer your
what your bodies as a living

sacrifice, right? So it's like
Paul brought bodies and minds

and like all this together. And
the most compelling neuroscience

is always saying, like, the best
way to change your mind is

always through embodied kind of
things, which is partly why we

wanted to go with these
landscapes, like imagine your

body yourself in a landscape,
interacting with all this,

right? So we change our minds
through our bodies. And so Paul

knew that, and the New Testament
knew that. The Old Testament

knew this, it's just us in our
certain of our kind of streams.

And so that's why I find like
the neuroscience and attachment

so compelling is it really does
help us

Jessie Cruickshank: right? Read
the Bible. I mean, it is your

autobiographical memory system.
It's just that. It's that yeah,

and mostly that. But I love the
way that you guys are talking

about if for those of you who
have heard me for a while, you

know that I always also am like,
just like Sid, you know, we need

to work with the way God
designed us, and that's because

I've spent two decades coaching
disciple makers and pastors, and

they are very sincere with a lot
of effort and a lot of

intentionality, but their
practices because of the way

they've been taught, and That
disembodiment, disenchanted

reformation, kind of, you know,
enlightenment paradigm. They

just spend a lot of effort
working against our biology and

working against our design and
and then are just really

disappointed, and then the enemy
shames them, you know, that

they're not good at their job,
or they're doing it wrong, and

there's something wrong with
them. So, yeah, for me, it's,

let's do it God's way, because
he actually set us up for

success and and healing and
wholeness and transformation is

really possible. So if you guys
would have one exhortation that

you would give to a ministry
leader or just an ordinary

disciple who's like, Huh? I
should I? Should I dip my toe in

the waters of these different
landscapes of the soul? I'm

afraid of what, where it's going
to take me, and I'm just not

sure if everybody's gonna think
I'm crazy or I'm gonna discover

something that's gonna just
gonna really be disruptive for

me. Like, what would your
encouragement be to people who

would be considering exploring
the different landscapes of the

soul?

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, my my
encouragement would be, I think,

something in you already knows
that you want something more and

that you know there is something
deeper and something more

beautiful that maybe you
haven't. Quite yet reached or

accessed. You might get
something. Something might get

disrupted. But, I mean, we
worked really hard at making the

whole tone of the book one of
one of compassion and hope in

that, you know, Jesus does not
meet you with any condemnation.

He's not going to like sit and
scold you and criticize you for

where you are, but instead, meet
you with such tenderness and

compassion and kindness and
attune to you right then and

there and then gently move you,
you know, deeper and further

into the pasture and so, I mean,
yeah, my life was disrupted when

I first learned about
attachment. But I, you know, I

hate to I'll just brag on it. I
think if I had read landscapes

of the soul as my introduction
to attachment, I would have had

a very different experience. And
I think the disruption in my

life would have felt like a
really hopeful and generous

surprise, rather than the
massive undoing that it ended up

being so I know that was my
heart in writing the book was,

how can you be exposed to this
and learn this in a way that

gives you greater hope, rather
than discourages you?

Geoff Holsclaw: Along with what
Sid just said there about hope,

I think moving from like
condemnation to compassion is we

can either, oftentimes we
condemn ourselves because we're

like, Oh, I did that thing
again, or responded in a way

that I'm not proud of, or I'm
just like, just languishing in

life, whatever, right? So we or,
and then sometimes it's an and,

or we look at other people and
we condemn them for just seeing

the world differently and then
responding differently, you

know, so Sid and I, when it
comes to parenting, I would just

condemn Sid for just being that
like soft hearted, willy nilly

mom who, you know, wouldn't
follow the rules or wherever I

am, condemning her, and she's
condemning me because, like,

Jeff's so hard on everybody all
the time, and he just brought

her right so can we move out of
that condemnation, of either

self condemnation or other
condemnation to like a place of

compassion for how it is that we
respond and understanding, you

know, like, oh yeah, I can see
why I do that. But then also,

then having a goal, or some
place that we want to head

toward for the healing and the
hope that God has for us. So

good. Well,

Jessie Cruickshank: if somebody
wants to get your book, where,

where can they go? How can they
find more of you?

Geoff Holsclaw: So landscapes of
the soul, you can get anywhere

where your books are sold. You
can also go to our website,

embodied faith dot life. You can
find the big new book tab, but

that's also where you can find
our podcast, my writings on sub

stack and the different cohorts
and things we do so that's

embodied faith dot life,
otherwise, just landscapes of

the soul.

Jessie Cruickshank: Wonderful.
Well, it has been so great

having you guys on I really
appreciate you being here with

me today and just sharing your
heart and your wisdom and your

very beautiful book. Just really
appreciate that, and I know it's

going to bless everyone who
reads it. So thanks for being

here. Yeah, thank you, Jesse.
And if you want, you can check

out more of the ordinary
discipleship podcast and the

resources that we have on
huology.co that's W, H, O, o, l,

o, G, y.co, there's actually an
assessment on there for your

community and where you land in
the attachment landscape. And,

yeah, we can't wait to have you
back again. See you soon. You.