Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship podcast. My name is
Jesse Cruikshank, and I am here

with my very dear friend Tracy
Matthews. I am so excited to

introduce you guys to her, and
have you hear from her today, we

met like, out in, like the
missional church world, like at

conferences and stuff. And I
just saw her across the room,

and I was like, I think she went
to Harvard, like she had that,

that little like Harvard
handshake. It's a secret

handshake. We can't share it
with you guys. But Tracy is this

person in my life that I call
and I need calm down when I call

When I need help, she can lead a
room through reflection and and

help a room hear the Lord like
no other person right now. And

so I am so excited to introduce
you to her. She's beautiful,

she's amazing. Her spirit animal
is a dragon. Maybe we'll get

into that and all the positive
ways. So yeah, Tracy, I know

that you were mentoring before
we get we got started that in

your prayer time and in setting,
sitting with the Lord you in

setting an intention and hearing
what God had for us in this

conversation, he gave you some
imagery. So I'm wondering if you

would just share that with our
audience, like, like, what? What

would you want them to expect
from this conversation? What did

the Lord share?

Tracy Matthews: Absolutely let
me just say right back at you,

Jesse, I'm so grateful for our
friendship and for who you are

in the world and how God moves
in and through you. So it is so

good to be here with you in this
space and yes, in praying into

whatever God might want me to
bring into this podcast here,

the imagery that came was one of
the Spirit of God as these life

giving waters just gently
spreading out amongst like dry

and cracked land. And the
imagery is one that I get

somewhat frequently that helps
remind me that both for myself

and so many others, we are like
this dry and cracked land where

we have anxious hearts and
frayed nerves, and there is

nothing like the spirit of the
living God that sense of his

presence and love and like,
power and sufficiency, that if

we'll just let it seep in, will
nourish us. It's like a healing

balm. It will get us emotionally
regulated and into a place where

we're ready to respond well to
the challenges and opportunities

of life. So that imagery was I
felt God saying to me, just help

them, know, remind them, inspire
them with what I've shown you,

Tracy, that if they will make
space for me and learn how to

attune to my presence and
guidance. I will give them that

sense of nourishment and ease
and like rest and goodness.

Chicken noodle soup, chocolate
lava fountain for the soul.

Jessie Cruickshank: Chocolate
Lava fountain with marshmallows

and strawberries, all of it. You
use the word attune as you were

sharing that. And you have an
organization called attune. Tell

us. Tell us one about how you
started that, where that came

from. And then what is, what
does that mean to you? Like,

what is define attunement for us
from your perspective, in your

world here?

Unknown: Yeah, well, let me, let
me go in reverse order. So let

me just define it real quick,
and then talk about how, how I,

how I ended up doing this work
of attune as an organization. So

the way that we would define
attunement, mostly we're looking

at spiritual attunement, and we
would define that as an

intentional process by which we
hear God's guidance and align

our response with it. And it's
not just like hearing God's

guidance as in, like what he
wants us to do, that's part of

it, but even more foundationally
is like the tone and tenor of

his voice, like his heart's
posture towards us and towards

whatever the situation is.
Because when we understand that

his love for us, His care,
whatever his perspective might

be, when we align with that, it
kind of changes everything. So

spiritual attunement, basically
being receptive to God's

presence and guidance and then,
like aiming to follow it like

that's that's what we're going
for now. So that's what we mean

by it, in terms of how we moved
into this. It started with me

and a, you know, going back to
the whole business school thing,

the way I was taught, like, I'm
built to be an entrepreneur.

I've known that for quite some
time. The way I was taught is

like, you stand at point A and
you create this career. Still

clear vision of point z, and
then the A, B, C, D, E, all the

way to Z. Water tight plan. And
you, like, rally the troops and

resources, and you make it
happen, even though, like, it

never works that way. Never we
pretend. We pretend like it

does. And with a

Jessie Cruickshank: lot of work
into it, right? It's a lot of

work,

Unknown: a ton of and whenever
things go slightly off, it's

like, we just make a new plan,
and we totally knew what we were

doing. Yeah. We were doing. So
the way God has been teaching

me, which started at the very
beginning, was this, like, we're

at point A, and we have a, at
least for me, it was a very

clear sense of call. But like, I
there was no picture of z, it

was just like, head in this
general direction, ish and and

like that Abrahamic call of
like, go to the land. I will

show you. It was like, I want
you to get going, even though

it's super nebulous. So, I mean,
when I started, I created all

the plans, because I'm like,
Well, I guess I'll just fill in

the details myself, and then God
would just show us the next

step. And then, you know, the
the plans I thought I was

supposed to create my own never
worked out. But yet there was,

like, there was a step c, it
just wasn't in that direction

anymore. It was like an, uh, it
was up instead of East, like a

whole new dimension, and that,
that's, we call it now, a

journey of spiritually attuned
leadership, where it was like,

it's been progressively layer
upon layer. But at first it was

like, how do we integrate our
faith with our daily work as

more of a curriculum? And then
it was decision making

frameworks. And then it was
like, well, it's not just

applying biblical wisdom in this
kind of left brain way, but it's

actual spiritual attunement.
It's for teams. It's for kind of

apostolic, entrepreneurial
teams, like every layer he's

adding is added to the previous
ones, and yet, now we're in new

territory. And so what he had
been doing is just reforming my

my mind and body and heart and
soul, to be able to just way

find with them, just listen and
align and listen and align and

listen and align and and that is
the way, like our foundational

strategies. And along the way,
we've been able to look

backwards and be like, Oh,
that's what we're doing. Oh,

that's what we're doing. And so
now what I would say the work of

attune is, is training leaders
and teams, especially in a team

environment, to learn how to
hear God's guidance, tap into

His presence together and
respond in the work of

organizational leadership out of
what we hear. That's how we talk

about our work today. I

Jessie Cruickshank: love it. I
love that you use the word

Wayfinding, because there is
nothing less clear than

following Jesus or the Holy
Spirit, as it were, right?

You're following the wind.
You're following a pillar of

cloud or fire. And I think the
thing that maybe frustrates me

the most about following God is
how little information he

actually gives, yeah, like,
like, he doesn't share where

we're going there. I mean that,
yeah. I mean, like, if I, if he

were the head of my company, I'd
be like, where is our plan? Or

even, like, addiction, you
didn't where are we getting to

by tonight? What are, what are
the travel points? And so to way

find with the Spirit. I love
that imagery and that

description, because it is a
moment by moment, turn by turn.

Kind of attunement? What? Why do
you think? Why do you think God

does it this way? Like, as
opposed to, here's the plan, or

at least here's the plan for the
day. He doesn't even do that.

Like, like, Why do you think God
withholds so much information?

Unknown: That's a great
question. I wish I knew the

answer. I have some ideas that
we can discuss some of it, I

think is because what he's most
after is the together journey

with us. And we just have a bad
tendency where, if we, if we

know the plan, we're just going
to be Aha, and we don't need God

anymore, and we'll just do it,
as opposed to this, like very

perceptive, receptive mode of
moving where we're constantly

watching for God and sensing
where he's at in a way that

causes us to be more awake and
alive. So I feel like that's

part of it. I feel like part of
it is he wants to blow our mind

at every turn, because it's fun,
but also because we don't have

the capacity to take it all at
once, like if I was at point A

and let's say a tune is at point
G, I don't know what you are,

but I would not have had the
ability to understand there are

so many dimensions. He's had to
just slowly grow. And form us to

be able to understand that we
wouldn't have been able to grasp

it, and then if we tried to
actually go after it, would have

done it like wrong in many ways.
So I don't know. I think there's

probably a lot of reasons. But
what do you think? Why doesn't

he give us more of the picture?

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, I
would agree with you. I mean, I

some of the same conclusions. We
do. Do things on our own. We're

we are children who are like I
do myself. I trust myself. I go

potty myself. You know, it
doesn't matter that it's messy

and we put the shirt on
backwards, and we think we're

amazing because we did it by
ourself. And I just don't know

if we ever grow out of that with
God, and he definitely has

better plans than we could ever
hope and imagine. I think, I

think what opened me up to the
possibility was of such a of

such a paradigm, was when I was
sitting with the Lord, and I was

asking and asking for wisdom. I
was trying to make a I was

trying to make a business
decision for my for my

organization, and he was silent.
And at this point in my

relationship with God, I'm just
like, I'm absolutely confident I

can hear from him, and I know
I'm obedient because of, like,

my history and the things that
the hard choices I have made to

follow him into hard places or
scary places, or jump off cliffs

and all that stuff. So, yeah, I
know I can hear, and I know I'm

obedient, and he's still being
quiet, and I'm like, Well, why

don't you trust me? Why don't
you trust me with this? Why are

you being such a jerk? And you
know, the the scripture that

kept coming to mind was, you
know, they don't have wisdom

because they don't ask, you
know, or ask, ask for wisdom

when you need it. And I'm like,
I am doing that scripture. Okay?

Why isn't this working? And as I
reflected on Solomon, I realized

that wisdom isn't enough.
Solomon had wisdom and he's he

was, it was as I leaned into
thinking about Solomon like he

was a huge hero in my
upbringing, my fundamentalist

Baptist upbringing, like, like
he was the man. But I, I

realized they don't even talk
about him in the New Testament,

other than, you know, the lilies
of the field, like he's not a

hero in the faith hall of fame
in Hebrews. He's not anyone that

Jesus or the New Testament, they
point back to as a model or an

icon. And I was like, oh, so
wisdom isn't the best thing to

ask for. Well, God, what do you?
Because God says no or doesn't

answer and he's silent. And I
was like, Well, God, what do

you? What do you? What do you
always give? Even every time I

ask and I realize, like it's His
heart and His Spirit? Yeah, he

always gives his heart. There's
never a no answer to his

presence, to relationship, to
his heart, while there is a no

answer sometimes too.

Unknown: That's such a good
point, right? On the one hand,

he he keeps, he keeps you in the
dark in many ways, like, you

don't know where it's headed.
You don't even know how to get

there, because you don't even
know where you're going. But,

but he is giving you a very full
picture of his presence and how

he feels towards you, which I'd
say, like, probably the point,

the whole point, right?

Jessie Cruickshank: It's not the
destination. It's him, like,

learning him, which I think they
say, isn't like Isaiah, 5010, or

something you know, like, like,
it's not about you figuring it

out. It doesn't mean that. It
doesn't frustrate me, pretty

much, almost.

Unknown: But I will say I know
you, and I would say myself as I

know you, to be a woman of
adventure. And I will say that

living leadership today versus
my old ways, which was much

more. I'll make my plans and
then make it happen, this is way

more of an adventure, way more
fun. And ultimately, like I

experience it as freedom, which,
yeah. Like, I mean, I've said

before in the last year or so,
I'm like, I love my daily

experience of leadership now.
And I would say this feels like

the promised land and the ways I
I thought I was supposed to lead

where we're supposed to know
where we're going, and it's all

up to us. Like that is bondage.
I am not going back to Egypt. It

is a different experience. And
while, yes, we acknowledge that

we're in the dark, because I
think even the old way we're in

the dark, we just don't know it,
but the experience is actually

one of adventure and

Jessie Cruickshank: freedom.
Well, let's, let's compare and

contrast a little bit, because I
want to hear about, like, what

you actually do in some of these
practices, and why you work with

teams, your education, literally
education in how to run

business, and then even, like,
the business that's incorporated

into the church world, the same
paradigms, and I trained people

in these and I've led these
meetings and facilitated this

stuff, like, like I have. Been
part of the problem. But the way

that it goes is you create a
compelling vision that you

invite people into. You have
very clear next steps. So

because the whole mantra is
like, people can't follow you if

they don't know like what you're
inviting them into, they come

because of a compelling vision,
not because and everything else

is like a reduced version of
whatever. So, yeah, so

compelling vision clear next
steps, you rally a group to then

follow you and execute said
vision. So, you know there are

church planter assessments that
assess for this personality

type, who who can go into a city
they've never been and launch a

thing with compelling vision,
recruit everybody to execute

said vision, written in a room
somewhere else by themselves. So

that's one end of the spectrum
of what entrepreneurial

leadership was pitched as, and
is still taught as, what is what

is it that you guys that, what
is it that you do instead how?

What's our alternative
leadership style here that you

help teams lean into?

Unknown: So there's, there's,
like, a number of different

dimensions. But at the end of
the day, it's all about being

spirit led. And we'll actually
teach it through a kind of

framework of Listen, discern,
brainstorm, go this whole way

finding approach. We'll talk
about this as Listen, discern

brainstorm, go, try stuff.
Listen, discern brainstorm. Go

in in kind of as soon as it's
good and right, in a shared

leadership setting. So what it
means is that we move from the

key leaders posture that is
like, I am to figure it out and

make it happen to one that is,
like, highly receptive, right?

Like, where is the leading of
God, which is something you have

to listen for. And then as you
learn to listen to God for

together, you're learning to
listen to one another and hear

yourself in a deeper way. Like
we like to say that God speaks

in 1000 different ways, at many
different frequencies, and most

of the frequencies are in these
kind of groans too deep for

words. So it's like letting go
of our kind of cognitive we

figure it out. We make it
happen, proactive mind and

learning to quiet that long
enough so that we can get this

kind of deeper heart and gut
subconscious sense of like, oh,

this is the prompting of the
Spirit. And as we learn how to

do that together, we hear each
other and ourselves in these

deeper ways. And that's where
kind of the bigger picture,

heart and and really,
perspective of the direction

you're going can be set. And
then you can follow it up with

that beautiful left brain, you
know, proactive mind of like,

how might we execute on that?
But then we keep it very

iterative in nature, right?
Like, we listen, discern, oh,

this is what God is up to. Okay,
let's, let's, let's align

ourselves. Let's try some stuff
that's moving in that direction.

And once we've tried some stuff,
let's listen again, because God

again wants to blow our mind.
Show us new things, help us

understand the context, the
terrain and what is going on,

not only in like that, let's say
that church planting like what

is going on in that city. How is
God already at work, but also,

like with my teammates, what is
going on there and what has got

up to and with myself, my own
leadership, what has got up to

there? So it's, it's a lot more
of a exploration, discovery,

kind of receptive oriented
Wayfinding, which takes us back

into that, like it's an
adventure.

Jessie Cruickshank: And why and
why teams like, like, what is?

What is? Because most people,
when they talk about attunement,

it's usually like, person to
person you know, singular, or

person to God. Not a lot of
people lean into the group

dynamic of it, although we are
increasing out here, who do that

like, what, what do you see in
the team dynamic? Why do you Why

are you leaning that way instead
of just doing individual

coaching or something? Yeah,

Unknown: I mean, there's a
there's a there's a number of

ways to kind of get into that we
do feel very strongly like the

main lane for attune is really
that team and group dynamic, and

we'll sometimes talk about it
as, like, attunement is a skill

set that you learn kind of like
playing basketball, and at the

end of the day, basketball is a
team sport. You can spend a lot

of time, and it's good to, like,
learn how to shoot hoops in your

driveway by yourself, which is
good, but like, the game is much

richer, and the game is actually
played. Aid with your team on

the court and in the mode of our
leadership, the mode, you know,

the game is actually played in
the context of our actual

decision making during
leadership, and most of that

will happen, you know, with your
team and in the office or in the

church or in the home, wherever
it is that the actual decisions

get made. That's where we want
to be able to attune to the

Spirit of God, because, you
know, that's where the decision

get made. Now, that's a that's
its own fruit, right? We like

that. We can actually hear God's
guidance, not just for the

depths of our heart and our
quiet time or on retreat mode,

but for that budget allocation,
or that hard HR decision, or,

again, strategically, where are
we trying to go this year or

this season ahead? Like, that's
when we hopefully most want to

hear God, like, in the actual
what are we going to do with

this organization? But it has
this added benefit of like, when

you do with your team, it allows
God to form the team dynamics

like, just like on our own. God
wants to spiritually form

ourselves and all of the deeper
patterns of thoughts, feelings

that result in actions at play.
God wants to do the same in the

group dynamics in terms of like,
becoming more like Jesus is

mostly about becoming more like
Jesus in the context of the

Trinity and his disciples, like
it's interpersonal in nature. So

if we learn to attune to God in
that context of interpersonal

relationship and dynamics, it
allows God to to spiritually

form, really the culture, the
way decisions get made, the way

the power dynamics flow, all
these kind of key things to get

to the best kinds of group
culture and the most fruitful

organizations.

Jessie Cruickshank: As you're
talking I'm thinking about, I

just, I mean, there's just a lot
of like, quote, unquote,

leadership wisdom out there,
since there are so many books

and so many people who talk and
teach and present and etc. And

one of them that's pretty
common, especially in the faith

based world, but I would assume
it's common outside of it, is

the idea that leadership is
disappointing others that you

know, just embrace it. You know,
hand you got to handle it.

You're gonna you're going to
disappoint the people who follow

you. You're going to disappoint
the people that are on your

team. And so you just need to,
you just need to embrace that

pain that you're going to do a
thing they don't like or you're

not going to be what they want
you to be, but, but just

snapshot it in that phrase,
leadership is disappointing

others. What do you what is
that? What is your reaction to

that? What do you think about
that?

Unknown: I go a lot of different
ways, but there's a couple of

ways that stand out. There's the
deeper psychological like when

I'll just put it in my own
shoes, when I am literally

disappointing other people.
Let's say you, I'm an Enneagram

three we have an Enneagram
listeners out there, which will

mean, like, ooh, if I am doing
something that's disappointing,

I'll read it on your face. And
for me, I will interpret that as

like the I'm doing it wrong, and
I'm I go quickly into a shame

spiral that gets me out of a
place of rootedness in Christ

and identity, and I lose my
creativity, curiosity, all of

that stuff. So on the one hand,
when we learn to attune on a

team basis, as we learn to
attune to God, we're learning to

attune to each other and
attunement. Another way to think

about is flows of awareness and
care. And so it would allow for

what we've seen is growing in
attunement to God and one

another. Allows, let's go back
to the example me to disappoint

you, and for us to have a
relational culture that has been

formed where I know you still
love and accept me as you know,

made in God's image. And we can,
I know we can handle this

disappointment, and it allows us
to stay walls down, hearts open

towards each other, even in the
face of disappointment, right?

So it allows me to stay in a
better place, and then from that

adaptive leadership perspective,
it what we're doing, especially

if we can do this as a group, is
widening that window of

tolerance where, like, hey, we
can handle being disappointed.

It doesn't change that we are
deeply beloved by God and one

another. It doesn't put us into
an emotionally dysregulated

place where we are no longer
curious and compassionate and

creative.

Jessie Cruickshank: Do you think
that then, with the team

dynamic, because you're having
people attuned to one another? I

mean it, it obviously shares the
power. It doesn't. It doesn't

have power on one side of that
equation, but the you end up

with pretty, not entirely, 100%
shared power, but but a lot more

shared power and agency, because
now you can't do something to

somebody without feeling it
right, all of that mirroring

empathy pathways stay engaged.
So I mean, what do you think?

Then, from the like, how does
that shape the leader, then the

process of being connected to
others, even when you're

disappointing, like you
disappoint them, and repairing

or being accountable at a
neurobiological level to the

emotional states you create in
somebody else. Like, like, how

does that shape that? How does
that shape the leaders?

Leadership,

Unknown: I think a lot of it, I
mean, it's like a yes to what

you just I mean, if so with me
and my attune colleagues, where

we do a lot of attunement to God
and one another together and for

our own stuff, and just create
space for each other to do that,

it means that we are more
attuned to each other. So and we

know each like I kind of we know
the contours of each other's

psyches, so I know, or I'll put
it this way, you know. So there,

there's, there's some people in
the attune ecosystem that know

when I get confused, I will
often get defensive. And one of

my colleagues at one point
lovingly gave me basically a

safe word, a safe word for her
to use, which she's she'll be

like, are you getting glitchy,
Tracy? Because I, when I get

confused, I can sometimes go
into this place of, I'm no good.

I can't do it. It's too hard.
Like, I don't know what you're

saying. You know it's, it's, I'm
going to a bad place. And, and I

used to, like, blow up meetings
when I, when I went to that

place, but the idea that my
colleagues will be able to

notice what's happening, they're
attuned to what's happening, and

they will be able to say in a
loving way, like, how's it

going, Tracy? And kind of get us
back into a place of CO

regulation together and health,
where it's like, Oh yeah, I'm

okay. Jesus loves me. Okay,
let's try this again. So there

is that ability to just be
attuned to one another, so that

it changes the way that we I
mean, so it's not just the

leader, it's, it's it's all
parties are able to care for one

another, which you could think
of as like, real time

discipleship, but also like, get
us into a better place to do

work well. And then what I also
say is, as a leader, doing this

joint attunement with others has
really helped me understand how

limited my own perspective is
like they're just such brilliant

ideas that come out when we're
willing to not only hear but

also like, attend, to, like,
follow, even ideas that don't

seem great to me, and be like
they were totally Right, or be

like, I jump to conclusions
really quickly. So somebody says

something, and I think I know
what they're talking about, but

because of the deeper heart
level work and the bigger

picture behind it, I'm like, Oh,
I was seeing 2% of the picture

and filling in the rest in stuff
that wasn't accurate. So I would

say it just helps, helps with
humility, I don't know, helps

with that heart level
connection, of like, when you

know somebody more deeply you
care for them, or naturally. So

I don't know all the things you
just said,

Jessie Cruickshank: what are you
seeing as like the fruit of some

of this? So, good work, deep
work, unusual work. What is

like? Can you give us an example
of a group you've coached

through a type of decision that
they had to make? You know, how

has this gone in the field

Unknown: out there? Yeah, I'm
such a big believer in just team

culture and team dynamics and
just the beauty that comes from

that when you learn to tune but
I think probably what, based on

your question, probably what
would make the most sense is the

courage that can come. So I'm
thinking of a particular

leadership team that was that
basically out of a kind of a

strategic direction type
setting. They they basically,

kind of significantly shifted
their funding model or basis in

ways that that were pretty
radical and could lead to their

like demise if it didn't go
well, um. Hmm. And what they

were able to say afterwards was
the first person to voice it was

like, I wouldn't have had the
bravery to voice it if he had

not gone to God. And I thought
it was from him, and it was

basically echoed by others who
heard the same thing. Wow. So

the kind of courage that can
come is very fruitful, and we

see that, you know, when we're
doing things that are pretty

counter cultural, and God is a
God of making all things new. He

asks us to do that often, the
courage is key, because it's

just so easy to second guess and
to doubt and to go, for me, to

go into a shame spiral over some
it's an anxiety spiral, whatever

it is. So to have that sense of
like, this is our best sense of

what God is calling us to do.
And we heard it again to that CO

regulation of like, when I get
shaky, I can go to you, and

since we have that shared
experience, I can see it in your

eyes that, like, yes, that was
real. I'm not making it

Jessie Cruickshank: up. What
courage would you lend our

listeners today? Like, if
they're facing a thing or they

have a decision, or they're I
don't know, like I feel like a

lot of people I know are just
little a little lost. They see

things that they're concerned
about, they see things that

they're worried about, and yet
they're not sure what to do,

they're not sure what to say,
they're not sure how to act.

They feel uncomfortable in in
probably many situations, many

environments, but they're not
like an action step. Just

doesn't seem to present itself.
And they want to be spirit led.

I know 1000s of people who want
to be spirit led, and the spirit

isn't necessarily giving them an
action point, right? What would

you what would you say, or how
would you lend them courage in

this moment? Is there a practice
they can do? Is there something

that they could, yeah, that they
could do with themselves? Is

there something that they can do
with their team?

Unknown: Yeah, that's yes, yes,
yes, yes. The answer is yes. I

mean, I feel like I just started
a very high level. I feel like

the biggest courage is actually
needed just to create space to

learn how to attune, or to
discern, or, you know, hear the

voice of God, and whatever
language works you want to use,

and it's, it's even better if
you could do that with your

team, like, hey, because we
just, we're just much better

when we decide We're going to do
something together, I'll show

up. Because I told Jesse, like,
we'll go to the gym together,

that kind of thing, and that's
going to work a lot better than

me saying I need to go to the
gym myself. Like, that's just

for most humans. That's the
case. So like, decide with your

team that you're going to be
counter cultural and create

space to learn how to hear God's
guidance more, and a lot of it

is like I have so much to do. I
can't slow down, and hearing

God's voice usually is helped if
you kind of create space and are

willing to quiet yourself. So
slowing down is kind of the key.

I know it's like, incredibly
painful for so many, especially

when things feel so crazy, they
feel like they feel like they

need to be getting faster, not
slowing down. So first thing is

just permission to slow down an
agreement. Like, yes, let's do

that together. Then there are a
bunch of different ways, you

know. So, like, I'm a big fan
of, like, actually, you've got

great resources, so look on the
website. But there's also, like,

electio Divina exercise, or
contemplative spirituality has a

lot of different ways to help
you slow down and just hear that

still small voice attune. Has
lots of practices you can use.

We've got a couple of free
exercises, guided reflective

exercises that can help you take
a particular situation and hear

God's voice, senses presence,
decide how to follow it. You can

see those at a tune to grow.org
off the practice page. So

there's lots of different ways,
but the biggest thing is, like,

it would be good for me to
actually create some space, or I

can just practice hearing God's
guidance for the specific things

that I want to hear him for. And
if you can commit with your your

team to say, hey, let's just try
this. Let's take a lunch hour

once a week, or once every two
whatever, whatever works for

you, whatever rhythms. There's,
there's a lot of ways to go

about it. And my guess is it
won't take very long before

you're able to be like the whole
taste and see approach this is,

this is actually really helpful.
I feel closer to you. I feel

closer to God. I'm actually
getting better at getting a

sense of like, Ooh, I think
that's the nudge of the spirit

for this particular situation.
And hopefully that's that's

enough to kind of keep you
coming back for more.

Jessie Cruickshank: Oh, honey,
that's so good. Good, oh, man.

Well, I I adore you. I just love
who you are. I love how you show

up in a room. I love how you
bring a calm steadiness. I

haven't met the swirly defensive
Tracy yet, so maybe some point

Unknown: we need to work closely
together, and then you have to

make a glitch.

Jessie Cruickshank: I want to
make a glitchy Tracy. I That

sounds like an event, that does
sound like an adventure, that

sounds like fun, um, I bet she,
you know, your eyes get big or

something. I don't know what is,
what is glitchy Tracy's face

look like, um, but I just, yeah,
I think the work that you're

doing is is amazing, and you
have such a gift. You have an

anointing for it, and it blesses
me and everyone that I know that

has worked with you. It has
blessed it has blessed them as

well. So thank you for sharing
today. Thank you for showing up

and bringing your cool, calm
water and pouring it over our

parched, dry ground today. I
just love you.

Unknown: I love you back. And
thank you for letting me be

here. Thanks for the work that
you do.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
everyone you've been listening

to the ordinary discipleship
podcast, you can always check

out our resources@hoology.co
that's W, H, O, o, l, o, G,

y.co, and yeah, thanks for being
with us today. You.