Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse
Cruikshank, and today we are

talking with Jessica and Andrew
Arnold, some of my dearest,

longest friends, and I am so
excited to have them on the

podcast today. So Jessica,
Andrew, welcome. We are going to

talk today about your family and
your beautiful daughter,

specifically your beautiful
daughter, Sarah,

Andrew Arnold: yeah, well, it's
great to be here. Yeah. I'm

Andrew. This is my wife,
Jessica. We've been married now

23 years, and we have three
wonderful, beautiful children,

Isabelle, Sarah, and then our
son, Flynn, and yeah. So today

we'll be talking and just
sharing about our journey with

Sarah, I guess, raising her as a
parent, as parents, but really

primarily, just like you said,
focusing on just our journey

with Jesus the Lord, in
discipling her and inviting her

and calling her and welcoming
her into Christ likeness and

becoming a disciple. So, yeah,
it's really great to be here.

Jess, would you like to say,
Love?

Jessica Arnold: Yeah, well, um,
you know, we're here to talk

about, you know, how to raise a
neurodivergent child to know

Jesus and the challenges there
of so, you know, if you're an

audience listening, you know, I
think it's important to know

that we stand here. You know,
having been married 23 years,

and 20 of those years has been
with Sarah. Sarah's 20, and she,

Sarah was essentially, we did
not have early intervention

because they said, or the
doctors said, oh, you know,

there's nothing wrong. She's
just developmentally delayed.

Her sister's speaking for her.
So then she got her autistic

diagnosis in kindergarten, and
we've had a test every three

years led by a psychologist to
redetermine her autistic status.

Through the years, we've
realized that the definition of

autism is very broad, and our
family actually gets frustrated

sometimes when someone comes
along and says, Well, I've got

autism, and you're like, Okay,
you graduated high school, you

own a car, you keep a consistent
job, you You know, have

relationships that are not
awkward. So yeah, let me tell

you about how we define autism.
But Sarah is on the spectrum.

She has really great speech, and
she's Uber social, very, very

social. And in fact, you know,
if we talk about her

spirituality, and if you were
to, like, think about, like, the

five offices of the gospel, of
evangelist, Apostle, teacher,

she is an evangelist, through
and through. She, in fact, right

now, as we're speaking, she went
first to a you, a group at the

University that are Orthodox
Catholics were not Catholic, but

she goes and goes to their
special like Latin masses.

Andrew Arnold: No, no, not mass.
No, no, what is it? Well, during

Holy Week, they had more of like
a high liturgy service. We don't

need to get in the weeds. It's
not Latin Mass. She's going to

Vespers,

Jessica Arnold: okay? Vespers,
nightly prayers. And then she'll

go to a local youth group, you
know, at an evangelical church

in town, and then she goes to
our church's youth group, but

yet she, you know, in her Easter
basket, wanted us to fill it

with goth or anime with that.
And her autism, she is high,

social, very articulate, but at
the same time, struggles with

the who, what, where, when, how,
and getting a straight story

from you know, out of her and
reads and does math at a late

elementary level at best, so
she's not this high intelligence

autism that's gonna, You know,
be able to get a job in society

where she'll make lots of great
money, but yet, there is that

spark of uniqueness in her that
we, you know, have always tried

to focus on and are praying that
she lives out. Is like her full

destiny in how God created her
to be. So how do you guys

Jessie Cruickshank: think about
that? You know, when parents

think about their kid, they
think about maybe who they're

going to marry, or the kind of
family they'll raise, or the the

job that they'll have, like a
career, and those kinds of

things aren't necessarily in
Sarah's future. So how do you

think about her purpose? And
especially, especially, I want

to say Kingdom purpose, but I
don't want to make that

something disconnected from her
life, all of these groups that

she's a part of, that she brings
her Jude vive to, and you know

her, all of her I just really
enjoy talking to her. Actually,

I find it just super fun to
listen to how she's thinking

about things right now and what
character she wants to be and

what she's excited about. So, so
yeah, say, maybe say, say, a

little more about that purpose,
and how you guys imagine that,

and, and, and what that entails
for Sarah?

Andrew Arnold: That's a great
question, I think. I mean,

that's been a journey, I think,
for each of us individually, for

us collectively. I mean, since
Sarah was born, but really since

we started to realize and
understand more about her

autism, what does it mean for
her to be on the autistic

spectrum going through early
elementary even into middle

school, imagining what her
future may be like. And it was

hard back then, and I think
we've had to hold our

expectations very loosely. And I
think actually, speaking for

myself, have to, like, readjust
those expectations pretty

dramatically from when you think
of your child being born,

imagining their future 20, 3040,
years from from the time they're

born, at some level, and
realizing Like, Oh no, Sarah is

definitely unique, different
than both of our children. For

sure, every child is different,
but that she has very different,

like unique plans and purposes
for her life, and that's okay,

but in some ways, it's like
letting go of your own

expectations first before
there's space enough to like

dream and believe what God might
have for her. It sounds kind of

it's hard to say, but I think
that's been some of my own

process, I don't know about
yours, but some of my own

process to say, Oh, she's not
going to have, maybe the same

storyline, arc that many, many
kids have, or many young adults

have, it's going to be different
in the sense of, she's she's

going to have a hard time
graduating my school. She's

likely not going to go to
college. It's going to be harder

for her to have a spouse and
meaningful significant other in

ways that are, you know, mutual
and reciprocal and and it's hard

for her to have a job that is
demanding and challenging and

and so all those things, it's
like, Okay, I've got to

surrender those to God. And in
the midst of that, like, there's

some really amazing, beautiful
things that Sarah is, and that

God, I think, uniquely, has
created her to be and live in

this world for herself and other
people, I guess, would be one

way to say it, that's really
beautiful and special. And

there's people that Sarah
reaches and blesses and

influences that I never would
and that many people would never

like, I would say, lots of
marginalized, somewhat fringe

people that get overlooked,
oftentimes by society, not just

with disabilities, but but
socially and, you know,

relationally, really, more on
the edges of society, people and

Sarah's just really, really
wonderful with them. They're

really kind, loving friend that
it brings them in and includes

them in her world and in the
worlds of her communities.

That's really beautiful. It
definitely reflects the heart of

God, the heart of Jesus. So, I
mean, that's somebody just like

an initial thought to your your
question, yeah,

Jessica Arnold: a great example
of that is, is a young man. We

won't mention his name, but he
has perpetual seizures,

seizures, and so when you talk
to him, you know, it's very you

know, he only talks about like
Godzilla and trains very

labored, and Sarah will just
talk for hours. She doesn't have

like this, like social
expectation, you know, of this

back and forth, like you share,
I share, you share, I share. I

mean, she's willing to let him
just go off about whatever he

wants to, you know, for hours on
end. Right? Or just sit there in

silence, like, awkward silence,
while they play some, you know,

online game, and you're like, Oh
my gosh. Like, this is not my

pace of life. Yeah, I think
that's actually probably been

the biggest challenge as we've
grown up with her. Is just the

pace. You know, she's just like,
eight steps behind, and you're

like, let's go. Let's go. But
then at the same time as she's

like, gone into like,
transitioned into adulthood, is

still living in her home, which
that might be changing soon.

Let's pray for us, you know,
just kind of going with her ebb

and flow of social life and
interests in regards to her

spirituality, I would like to
share like a testimony Sarah

from the time she was little
would cosplay Like costumes. So

costumes, but specifically
costumes from shows so buzz,

lightyear Spider Man, Spider
Man, Iron Man. Now she's like

into all these anime characters,
and she went to her first Comic

Con two years ago. She had a
boyfriend, and he was very

cowboy, and it was a unhealthy
relationship, and he didn't

treat her with the kind of
respect that she needed treated

as one of, you know, Jesus's.
And when she broke up, she was

so brokenhearted that a certain
community came in and was trying

to say that she could be
whatever she wanted to be. So

she started going by and
impersonating and saying that

she was lame. Frost, okay, and I
mean,

Andrew Arnold: like frost, a
famous cowboy, bull rider

Jessica Arnold: that died at
shining Frontier Days by getting

impinged in his, you know,
organs and dying on the arena.

Handsome cowboy loved Jesus, and
so she, you know, was just like,

my name is no longer Sarah. It's
Lane frost. So of course, our

church community was just
freaking out, you know, she's

identifying as Lane frost. You
know he and and I'm like, You

have to understand that Sarah
has identified as a character

her whole life, like now that
she's wanting to be like Lane

frost, it's just, you know,
like, we'll slap some cowboy

boots, find her a fancy ranch
buckle, you know, a metal

buckle, belt buckle. And, you
know, buy her the cool hat, you

know. And Lane Frost is, like,
really popular. So all that to

say, though, is I just prayed
through it and just accepted it.

So then the reason why I'm
getting to this is then someone

in the church, you know, had
heard about this, and, you know,

was a cowgirl, and she was
having her own encounters with

Jesus, and she went home one
weekend, and the Holy Spirit

told her, when you're home, go
and get that Bible. There's only

like so many copies made in the
nation, and it's a Bible, it's a

lane frost Bible, and it has the
prayer of salvation in it. And

give it to Sarah Arnold, and so
she brought it to church and

gave it to Sarah, and that
night, Sarah read it and said, I

want to live for Jesus. And she
accepted the Lord into her

heart, and then it was a couple
weeks later that she ended up

getting baptized in water. And
we have a tradition in our

church to lay hands and like
prophesy and encourage and speak

scripture over Sarah to everyone
who gave her words and identity

were just spot on. And so, you
know, even though she's not, you

know, all the time demonstrating
and watching all the right

shows, and she, you know, had
that moment and and you know, is

often reminded of those
scriptures. Is, and just don't

know how it's gonna happen.

Jessie Cruickshank: How old was
she when? Yeah, when she gave

her her life to the Lord and got
baptized a couple years ago?

Andrew Arnold: Yeah? I 18, yeah.
I think 18.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yep. You
know one, one thing I've loved

about watching the way you guys
parent Sarah, is that, yeah,

she's always worn these
costumes, like, like, she's not

that aware of gender, not that
much, you know, probably,

obviously, probably more now
than she she was so, yeah, so

she'd be Batman and Iron Man for
a long time, right? She was an

iron woman. She was just Iron
Man, because that was the

character, right? And you guys,
I mean, from what I saw, you

never squash that. You never
like shamed her about that you

didn't, you didn't. I mean, I,
I'm curious how you guys

wrestled through that and what?
What gave you the peace to be so

open handed because you never
shamed her?

Andrew Arnold: Yeah, I feel good
about that. I feel true. I feel

like that's true, because I
think early on, I mean, so I

grew up in the church. My dad
was a pastor, so I'm a pastor's

kid. I grew up in full time
ministry, some of ministry kids.

My dad was a pastor and the
executive director of a pear

church. So it was like our whole
life was around ministry. And in

a very good way, there was an
expectation to, you know, you're

going to show up on, you know,
Sunday. You know that kind of

the church doors are open,
you're going to be there. So in

some ways, like that was really
healthy, and I'm grateful for

that. And in another way, you
know, as I'm growing up, it was

almost like maybe a religious
duty. So there's like, two sides

of the same coin. And one, it
was like, really redemptive. And

another, it was like, it was
like religious expectation,

maybe performance. And I think
early on, Jessica and I said, we

don't want to fight our kids to
go to church or have this

antagonistic relationship where,
like we're convincing them to

come to church. We're
threatening them, we're shaming

them. We're guilting them, you
know, to come to church, to be a

part of the body. And early on,
it just was very obvious, like,

Sarah was gonna go to church in
a costume. Like, early on, she

was gonna have a costume. We
weren't gonna have some cute

Sunday outfit on. We weren't all
gonna be like the family that

matches in church, and if that's
you listening, that's fine. It's

beautiful, but it wasn't going
to be us. And so it was like,

Oh, we're so we either gonna
fight her every Sunday to

change, and then she's gonna get
resentful and, you know, angry

and hateful towards us and going
to church, or we're just going

to accept the fact that it's
okay for her to wear a costume,

and if people don't like that,
if people judge us, if it's not

the religious thing to do, like
that was going to be okay. Now,

thankfully, at the same time, we
were in Christian communities

that were gracious, kind,
loving, accepting. If they were

judgmental, they weren't, like,
outwardly judgmental to us.

Maybe they were inwardly, I
don't know, but, but most of

them were very, like, accepting
of Sarah. And we're like, Hey,

that's a cool outfit. Or, hey,
what you know, what's your

character today, or who you
dressed up as, and were pretty,

like, willing to engage her. So
there wasn't a lot of like

religious expectations to like
fit a certain, like mold of a

Sunday morning church family.
Because truthfully, it was, it

was either we were going to do
that and break Sarah's spirit,

or we weren't going to do it,
and, you know, we just chose not

to do it. And admittedly,
sometimes it can be awkward,

like, sometimes you're going to
church even now, less so now,

but in some of those early days,
like, you're going to church and

you're like, Sarah. Like,
externally, Sarah looks a little

odd in this costume. Like, if
you didn't know our daughter,

you'd be like, Wow, this is an
odd family.

Jessica Arnold: Those, those
Spider Man costumes can be like

full body, like glove and
everything. So it's almost like

wearing a skin, you know. And so
it's kind of like, revealing,

yeah.

Andrew Arnold: I mean, she's
not, like, all curvy and

everything, but, but yeah, so,
you know. So it's like, okay,

this is, you know, this is a
little awkward and, but that's

okay. Like, we're it's gonna be
okay. But then Sarah can be

yourself. Self. She can engage
with people. She can be loved by

them. They can love her in
return. She can feel welcome.

She doesn't feel judged or
ostracized or isolated. She

feels like, Oh, these are my
people. This like, this, church

is my people. So then you know,
when it's time to go to youth

groups, like, Yeah, I'm gonna go
hang out with my people. It's

time to come to Sunday, yeah,
these are my people, and they

know Sarah, and they love her,
you know, despite, or in spite

of some of, like, the
awkwardness, or, you know,

sometimes it's just
uncomfortable, you know, where

she'll just come and say things.
You're like, wow, that's a

little uncomfortable, that's a
little edgy, and that's okay.

They they're like, No, we know
Sarah. We love Sarah. She's a

part of us. And so that's also
been like a huge blessing. Is

not only the willingness to let
her go to church wearing, you

know, the latest thing that
she's into, but then also having

a few people that are willing to
like, meet her in that and love

her, and, in a sense, like
reveal Christ to her, and that

has been really beautiful. She
loves to be social, but she

struggles socially. If that
makes sense, she loves being

around people. She loves to make
new friends. But her peers, you

know, it's been hard at times,
because they're like, Wow, this

kid's odd. This kid, you know,
whatever they want to say,

weird. I like, there's this. The
vibe here is just a little off,

because Sarah has a hard time
with that, like, interaction,

pure interaction. And so there's
been sadness and loneliness and

and jealousy, jealousy. And why
did God make me I hate my

autism, like God made me with
autism, like, she's never said,

I hate God. I don't think, no,
but she's like, I but she's she

said things like, like, I don't
know if I believe in God. I

don't know if I like, I don't
know if I trust God, I don't

know if I believe in Jesus.
Because why would he make me

this way? And those are hard
conversations, like, those

aren't there's not like, a
little quick, easy answer, you

just kind of slap on that, and
everything goes away. Like, oh,

Sarah, you know you're gonna be
fine. God. God knows he see, you

know, like, Oh, those are true.
But like, in those moments,

those don't comfort her.

Jessica Arnold: Yeah, they're
like, hyper spiritualized, and

they're just not, they're not an
answer that she's willing to

hear and receive at that point.

Andrew Arnold: So in some ways,
like she's wrestled with, like,

hard, theological, if you will,
like realities at a younger age,

and I think a lot of her peers,
because she's experienced, like

some suffering, and she's
experienced some, some of that

isolation and that hopelessness,
and yet has her own unique

expressions of faith and her
life in Christ. Could she like

articulate those point by point,
and you know, give you the

outline of her faith and why she
believes in Jesus, no, heck no.

But there's a realness to it
that is really, really pretty

amazing. It's really beautiful,
actually.

Jessie Cruickshank: So I
remember when my brother, when I

was in my 20s, and he was in his
later 20s, and he was finally

coming to terms with in
wrestling with some of those

questions around being bipolar,
and he, he would ask questions

like, you know, especially in
the dark, the darker phases of

bipolar, you know, why? Yeah,
why did God make me this way?

Maybe I should just, I mean,
obviously in the dark, dark

places, maybe I should just die
to so I can go to heaven and be

healed so I'm not this way
anymore, yeah. And so we would,

we would, you know, talk about,
well, what do you look like in

heaven? You know, do you
especially when you're

substantially neurodivergent,
you know, what is, what is the

redemptive version of yourself
look like? And, you know, we

would, we would talk about that.
And, you know, does Sarah? Does

Sarah wrestle through questions
like that just yet, even, you

know, not, obviously, not the
word redemption. But you know,

what does, what does she think
it means for her to follow God

as a neurodivergent and does she
feel like it's a temporary date,

or is she finding, finding her
own self in there, like, like

coming being okay with the way
God made her, I guess, is maybe

the question.

Andrew Arnold: It's an ongoing
journey. And I think sometimes,

in some days, she she feels way
more comfortable in her own skin

and who she is and who she's
becoming and who God has created

her to be. And then I think some
days, yeah, a lot of anger,

fear, despair, and some of
those, yeah, much darker

thoughts of, yeah, maybe it's
just better if I don't live

anymore. I want to go to heaven
and be with like her, deceased

family members, my dad, jess's
grandfather, jess's aunt. Are

people that she really love that
have passed away and are in

heaven, and she's like, Oh,
maybe I just want to go live

with them. I just want to go be
in heaven with them, because

this is hard.

Jessica Arnold: Yeah. I mean, I
think you see, like these veins

of her true identity that have
followed her her whole life. You

know that she's lovable and kind
and fun to be with, and

interesting. And you know,
there's individuals that have

known her, like yourself, you
know, that really enjoy those

parts of Sarah. And so, you know
she does really well when you

know those areas are encouraged.
Yeah, I'm focusing on just her

being able to function in life,
like with laundry and like

eating balanced Mills, and
knowing the value of money and

knowing, like those executive
functioning things, like, No,

you can't dye your hair black
because Isabel's getting married

in August, and you said you
wanted to be a blonde. So no,

you know, just that she then
gets really frustrated with me,

and we just like Clash. And then
it's at that time she ends up,

you know, feeling like I'm just
no good at anything. And why did

I even have to come here, you
know? And so you you know,

almost have to just surrender it
over to the Lord, and just like

trust right now we're our
biggest moment of trust is she's

trying to move out on like, $150
budget a month. You know, you're

like, Whoa, okay, but you know,
it's like we're all have

throwing our arms up, you know,
like our two other children and

Andrew and I and saying, We got
to let her do this. Because if

she's motivated, she'll do it if
she has to think through that

process, you know, because I
think in my case, you know, I

enable her too much. You know, I
want her to have clean laundry,

you know, like the things that I
could control. You know, I want

to know that she's bathing every
once in a while. You know, it's

kind of thing

Jessie Cruickshank: you're
you're like every parent of

someone in their early, early
20s, right? I mean, not. They

don't have to be neurodivergent
for parents to worry about

whether or not they're bathing
Exactly. Yeah.

Andrew Arnold: I mean, I think
it's, it's, it's as much our own

growth and discipleship,
sanctification, spiritual

formation, whatever word you
want to use as it is. Sarah's,

because there's constantly an
invitation to trust, to

surrender. And yes, we're,
she's, she's moving out maybe,

but there's a ton of safeguards.
It's not like, we're just like,

yes, Sarah, go get your place.
Like, that's not what's

happening. It's a step of, you
know, like, surrender. Like,

God, is there something you're
doing here for us and for Sarah?

How can we shepherd that? But
it's it's always asking of us

like, Okay, you're ultimately
her father, you're ultimately

her savior, her king, and so how
can we come alongside what

you're doing in her life? And
that looks different than I

would say, for many other 20
year olds in this world, or at

least in America, but it's it,
but it's a trust thing. It's

really like, it's a deep trust,
and it's not linear or well

packaged and real tight to say,
Oh yeah, Sarah's, you know, this

is a, she's a disciple of Christ
and and this is what that looks

like. Because I think there's a
temptation right to say, well,

you know, kind of like to check
the boxes, or there's a certain

script or a mold that that we're
trying to shape people in,

meaning we myself, the church,
the church in the West,

whatever. And you know, Sarah is
largely outside of those boxes

and not checking all those
boxes, but yet, has a faith life

and does know Christ, and He is
drawing her. It's just It looks

different. So, so I say that
because, yeah, it's like it asks

a lot of us just say, Okay, God,
we're trusting you, that Sarah

knows you, that you, of course,
know her, and you're you're

drawing her, and she's
responding to that. Well, that's

Jessie Cruickshank: beautiful.
Like, what do you what do you

think we have to learn about the
faith from the faith life of

those who experience. God
differently, like Sarah or

people you know, I have a friend
who has a daughter with Downs,

and you know, their experience
of God and their experience of

themselves is is, is different.
But so what do you think they

have to teach us about the heart
of God that we wouldn't miss if

we weren't blessed by them

Jessica Arnold: just as diverse
as the as the disability is

right, or the neurodivergence, I
think each person has something

to teach us. I've often thought,
what is the Lord trying to teach

me through Sarah, about myself,
about him, and I think we're

still unpacking that you don't
have to look apart and say apart

and be a certain way in order
for the father To love you. And

Sarah has kind of boldly taught
that I was just thinking just

recently, she will, you know,
like, call you out if you are

angry, and she'll just be like,
Well, why are you angry, you

know, or why are you rushing me?
Or and, you know, it just kind

of makes you stop, you know, and
think about your own motivation

behind like what you're trying
to

Andrew Arnold: control. Thing
that immediately came to mind me

answer the question, which is
really what I think is at the

heart or the theme of what
you're saying, is for Sarah, I

think one of the ways that she
just reflects how her crisis.

She's just pretty much honest to
a fault. I don't know if that's

a way to say it, but she kind
of, like, just tells you what's

on her heart, what's on her
mind. If you ask her a question,

like, Sarah, did you you know,
like, did you do? Like, did you

spend that money that we asked
you not to spend? You know, and

she'll be like, I did. You know,
she doesn't, like, mince mince

words. She's like, Yeah, I did.
I did. Why? Sweetie? She's like,

I just really wanted that Lego
set or whatever. But sweetie,

we, you know, we asked, I know,
I know. I just, I really wanted

that. And you're like, in some
ways, you're like, that's just

kind of beautifully honest and
real and true. She's not trying

to, like, fake it, or, like,
massage it over. Or she's just

like, yeah, I really want it.
Or, or you're like, sweetie.

Like, what's going on? Like,
why? Why are you so angry? Or,

why are you being mean to your
sister? Or whatever she's like,

I'm jealous. I'm jealous of her.
I'm jealous that she has friends

and I don't, or I'm jealous that
she has a boyfriend and I don't.

Or I'm jealous that That dress
looks pretty on her, you know,

like, I can't think of, I can
maybe think of one or two

conversations in my life with
another Christian where they're

just that honest. They're like,
Yeah, I'm acting like a butt

because I'm jealous. I'm just
super jealous of you right now.

I'm super jealous of this
person, you know, like, wow,

that's like, refreshingly
honest, and it really is, is

disarming. It's like, it's
unarming. It like, disarms you.

And she, she's very vulnerable
in that way, like she just

shares vulnerably from her heart
a lot of times, like, I'm super

sad because, like, she, she
broke up with a boyfriend a

month ago, two months ago. So
some days she's doing great.

Another day she's like, just
super sad, and we're like,

sweetie, what's going on? She's
like, I'm just super sad that I

broke up with my boyfriend.

Jessica Arnold: And then she
tells us, you know, I texted him

20 times he didn't answer back.
And you're like, give the guy

some space.

Andrew Arnold: She's like, I
Yeah, literally, like, I've

texted him 30 times he hasn't
responded to me. I'm like,

that's that's awkward, and yeah,
I could see why you're sad.

Like, I'd be sad too, if I like,
I remember being sad when I

broke up with my girlfriend in
high school. Like, yeah, just

so, just that honesty, but the
vulnerability, I think it's,

it's vulnerability that I think
is really refreshing, that does,

I think, that honestly, that
vulnerability, does reflect the

heart of God. And, you know,
just like any human being, she's

got her hopes, her dreams, her
desires, her longings that a lot

of people are scared to even
mention, for fear that of

rejection or fear of being
isolated or judged, or or, you

know, like, oh, maybe, maybe I'm
really not supposed to have that

desire or longing. And they're
not, they're not sinful,

lustful, and they're not that.
It's just like they're

redemptive longings and desires.
And she's just, like, pretty

open about that, and pretty
vocal, like, not vocal, but very

open and communicates those
you're like, Wow, that's pretty

that's really refreshing. It
that someone would just lead

with her heart like that. She is

Jessica Arnold: quite aware of
the shows that she shouldn't be

watching, but she's just kind of
like, I'm gonna watch them, you

know, and you can't tell me
otherwise, because I'm 18. No,

well, no, but you know, like,
Yeah, I'm an adult now, so you

can't tell me, I can't you were
like,

Andrew Arnold: you know? So we
use those as opportunities,

like, well, sweetie. Like, I
mean, what do you enjoy about

him? Well, you know, this
romance or, okay, and what? What

do you think is helpful? Well,
this and that? What? What's

unhelpful? Well, you know, we
don't have those conversations

all the time, but there's
opportunities for those

Jessica Arnold: so, but then,
you know, then somebody, then in

your community, you know, she
might be talking about those

shows, right? And they're just
like, oh my gosh, you know, you

let her watch that. And so, I
think, you know, and this could

be a whole nother podcast is,
and Andrew mentioned it before,

but like your own, like shame of
your and I think this happens

with all your children. And I
have counseled a lot of you

know, people who their child has
been, you know, diagnosed with

ADHD or autism and and just like
their own, shame of their

child's behavior and how that
reflects on them as a parent,

you know, and you don't want to
religiously say to yourself,

well, I did real well with the
first one, so obviously It's not

me, but just accepting that each
child is different, and you know

they are who they are, and you
can't take that as a reflection

upon yourself and feel like
shame, shame about it.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, you
guys have had really good

differentiation of your
identities from your kids for a

long time. I mean, I think
that's something I noticed even

when they were younger. Usually
parents don't learn that until

around the teenage years. But
somehow you guys, I don't know,

maybe it's because growing up in
a small town with parents around

and and all that, but you guys
were able to intuitively figure

that out, maybe, maybe overtly.
Maybe you read a really good

book, but you've had that for
quite a long time. So it seems

like the whole situation you
guys have learned some really

healthy parenting things a
little earlier than than

sometimes other parents get to
them. So it's kind of it seems

like it's accelerated your own
emotional health and spiritual

growth to have Sarah

Andrew Arnold: around? Oh, for
sure.

Jessie Cruickshank: For sure.
I'm wondering. I'm wondering as

a kind of a closer thought, what
like exhortation or request

would you give? Um, what advice
would you give communities of

those who around parents who
have neurodivergent children.

Andrew Arnold: I mean, I'm, we
are super thankful for FAR

community. I mean, they're,
they're amazing. And, you know,

like, sometimes Sarah will,
like, she'll be at church,

she'll be talking with another
adult, or, you know, a friend of

hers that they're adults, or
friends of ours, and she'll say

something like, Yeah, I'm I'm
super depressed, or, you know, I

want to hurt myself, or I don't
want to live any longer, and I'm

really sad, and I want to go to
heaven and be with Jesus. I

don't want to be on there. And,
you know, if you're hearing that

from a teenager or a young
adult, for the first time.

You're not used to those
conversations. I mean, they're

pretty startling, maybe
shocking, and and I think the

amazing thing in the community
is, I think our communities

have, by and large, done a good
job of, like, holding that,

like, just attuning, saying,
Wow, Sarah, that sounds really

hard. Like I want you to know I
love you. I'm here for you. We

love you. Your parents love you,
but they're not trying to, like,

fix it, because they,
themselves, are so uncomfortable

with the conversation and the
content. So they're not trying

to, like, say, oh, Sarah, you
know, don't think that. Or, you

know, we need to go tell your
parents. Or, I mean, they do all

that. They come tell us, but
they're not trying to, like, fix

her in that moment, because
their discomfort with her or

what she's saying, they just
love her. And then oftentimes,

they'll circle back to us and
say, hey, just so you know, we

have this conversation. So we
have a relationship with many of

the people in our church, and
they're like, Hey, Sarah, told

me this today. Are you guys
aware of that? Yeah, we're aware

of that. We've been working
through that for a while now.

Okay, I just wanted you to know
I was a little freaked out when

she told me, but I just loved
her. I just cared about her. I

just held her. So there's I,
there's a there's a, an.

Acceptance of who who she is and
who she's becoming. There's

there's an there's a gentle
nurturing and guiding in our

community. But they're not
trying to fix her, and they're

not trying to shape her into
their image of who a teenage

disciple should be, or a young
20 something disciple should be.

And so there's a lot of grace,
there's a lot of like,

relational equity. There's a lot
of relational love. And people,

by and large, are pretty
proactive to, like, initiate

conversation with her now that
so I would say communities of

faith that have people that are
neurodivergent, that are on the

spectrum, that have
disabilities, move towards them,

initiate relationship, be
relationally connected, be a

community that that that person
feels seen and known and cared

for. You don't have to be best
friends, but it's like, oh,

there's sir, hey, hey, Sarah,
we're so glad you're here. Like,

what's going on? Like, what,
what movies you've been

watching? What? What sports are
you interested and that builds a

huge bridge that that Sarah,
like I said at the beginning,

like she comes to church, and
like, these are my people. I

know these people love me, and
so she wants to be there. So

what? Because she's there, she's
with the family of God, the

people of God. She's being
discipled relationally in ways

that we could, you know, never
do like people are pouring into

her, in ways that, you know, the
community, the family of God,

does not hurt her, just and I as
her parents,

Jessica Arnold: and then as
parents, I think you just like

the community, you need to have
grace, and then to not have

judgment, and to know that
there's a lot with just the

atmosphere, you know what I
mean, so I could go to church

and feel Uber guilty that
Sarah's maybe playing Minecraft

on the back wall with another
kid who's, you know, just

uncomfortable in their own skin
and don't maybe want to be

there. Like, there's this kid
visiting right now from

California, and he's probably
neurodivergent himself, and, you

know, she's befriended him and
welcome him into the community

to let him, you know, know,
like, don't stay, you know, at

home while your mom comes, like,
Come, you know, we'll be, we'll

kind of be off, you know, on our
own, doing our own thing. But at

the same time, they're sitting
there in in a room where the

Holy Spirit is very welcome, and
Jesus is there. They're not

dancing, they're not putting
their hands up in the air.

They're not laying hands on
people and praying. You know

they're not even sitting in the
seats, right? But they're there,

and so you just have to know
that. You know they've they've

felt the presence of God, you
know, it just might not look the

same as you know, everybody
else, but I'm just thankful that

she's, you know, faithfully,
wanting to be there, you know,

and she, even though she's not
participating, she's not writing

down The scripture, she's there
because she's

Jessie Cruickshank: present and
she's present with her people. I

think, yeah, I think that's a
great word, just to help

communities accept them, accept
everyone the way they are, and

say, Okay, what? What is your
experience of God here and and I

want you to, we want you to be
here with us when you're

experiencing

Andrew Arnold: that? Yeah,
exactly that. That's i That's

it. I think definitely, Sheriff
feels that we want you to be

here with us. We're glad you're
here.

Jessica Arnold: Like a sense of
belonging, yeah?

Andrew Arnold: So I think, yeah.
I mean communities of faith that

can create that sense of
belonging for autistic people,

and you and I and everybody in
between is really impactful,

deeply impactful and
transformative.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, you
guys, it's been so yeah, just

been so rich to hear and to hear
how you Yeah, you think about

discipling and raising Sarah and
helping her spirit flourish, and

just drawing that out of her. So
she's, she's just such a

precious, precious person. Yeah,
I greatly, she's always doing

something interesting. Oh yeah,
she will tell you all about it,

and it's, I don't know, I just
always enjoyed talking to her

so, and you guys have just done
a stellar job. And I, I know it

hasn't been easy, and there'll
be, there'll be times ahead,

times behind, times ahead. But
yeah, you guys have, you guys

have handled it remarkable,
yeah, well, so

Andrew Arnold: no, I really
appreciate that. And yeah, you

know, she's a gift. She's super
unique. Unique. You know,

there's, I can't think of
anybody likes her that I've ever

met, you know, so it's pretty
cool.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, and
just wait tomorrow, she'll be a

different person. Oh yeah, and a
different have a different and

you have a different interest,
get to meet somebody new. Oh

yeah, she'll have a different
interest.

Jessica Arnold: I know on
Saturday night, she's like,

anime and goth things in my
Easter basket, because all the

younger cousins got an Easter
basket. You're just like,

sweetie, you are 20, you know.
Like, mommy wasn't thinking

about an Easter basket, you
know. So we ended up, like,

going and shopping for her
Easter basket together at

Walmart.

Jessie Cruickshank: Oh my gosh,
precious. Well, this, you know,

goth could be, you know, swim
black nail polish, right? I

mean, who hasn't had a goth
phase? I mean,

Andrew Arnold: she has black
nail polish and

Jessica Arnold: Jess, I can
honestly say I didn't ever have

a goth phase, but that's because
I'm a hippie. That's true. I

know you're either like, full of
a lot of color, right? Go

through, I went to that phase.
I'm still going through that

phase.

Jessie Cruickshank: I might, I
might have, did I do to full on

goth phase? No, not really. It
just was, it just seemed like a

lot of maintenance,

Andrew Arnold: yeah, no doubt,
Yeah, seriously,

Jessica Arnold: it is, and she
doesn't like to wear makeup, so

I don't know.

Jessie Cruickshank: It's all
right. It's all right. Oh man.

Well, I appreciate you guys.
Thank you for your vulnerability

and your camp. Yeah, thanks.
Jess, so much, so much. Well, so

you have been listening to the
ordinary discipleship podcast.

You can get the rest of our
seasons wherever you get your

podcasts, and you can always
look up more

resources@hoology.co that's W,
H, O, o, l, o, G, y.co, Thanks,

and we'll see you next time you.