Jessie Cruickshank: Welcome to
the ordinary discipleship

podcast. My name is Jesse
Cruickshank. It's so good to

have you here with us today. In
the studio with me is Mandy

Smith, and Mandy and I have been
crossing paths for a few years,

but we we've had some profound
moments lately, and we want to

talk about a little bit about
those but Mandy, I'm so excited

that you're here. Thank you for
joining us from Australia.

Different, completely different
time of day. For those of the

listeners who don't know you,
will you just share a little bit

about yourself and the church
that you lead and and your

heart, right? I love your heart,
so don't forget

Mandy Smith: that part. Yeah,
I'm happy to Yeah. I always like

to joke that I'm actually
calling you from the future.

It's Thursday morning, my time.
So so far the future looks good,

but I am currently in Brisbane,
Australia, which is where I grew

up. I'm pastor at St Lucia
Uniting Church, which is by the

University of Queensland. We've
just had kind of a miraculous

renewing in the last couple of
years, which has also half

killed me, but also done a huge
amount of healing in my own

life. So that's beautiful to be
a part of that. And we're

watching many young people
coming to the Lord for the first

time. I think we've got six
baptisms in the last three

months, which is probably more
than I would do in the average

five years. I've only been here
for four years. Before that, I

was, we were living in the US
for quite some time in Ohio,

Cincinnati, Ohio. I was pastor
at university Christian church

by the University of Cincinnati.
So love being in those academic

contexts. I also write quite a
bit, not because I have the time

to but because there are things
in me that I just can't keep

down. And so take seriously that
calling as well. And I'm a part

of the Eugene Peterson Center
for Christian imagination, which

is out of Western Seminary in
Michigan. And love being a part

of that with wincollier there,
walking with people through a d

min process as they're just
discerning what it means to be a

pastor and what it means to be
the church. So all of those are

wonderful opportunities that God
gives me to just be exploring

all of the things that I'm also
asking questions about. Well,

what's

Jessie Cruickshank: your what's
your question right now?

Mandy Smith: How do I put it in
one question? But probably one

of the most pressing things is,
is it truly possible that things

that seem small and powerless to
us are actually the things that

change the world? Because this
congregation I'm a part of here

almost closed about four years
ago, and I was tempted to bring

really big, important things to
fix a church, you know. And as I

look back on all of the ways
that life is coming here, I can

see that whatever part I
brought, of course, it was

ultimately God, but I had a part
to play. And whatever part I

brought was was from trusting
that the hopeful, creative,

joyful, relational things that
seem unimportant are actually

the most powerful things. You
know that maybe Jesus had to use

metaphors like mustard seeds and
yeast just because that's our

small way of seeing things, and
they're actually the truly

powerful thing. So I'm, I'm just
kind of looking at the Lord in a

new way and saying, like, oh,
maybe I just thought they were

small. What if they're actually
the most transformative eternal

things?

Jessie Cruickshank: First,
Corinthians, 13 kind of thing,

right? Clanging cymbals and
gongs and good deeds and

brilliant thoughts and high
speech and all this noise and

all this effort and faith, hope
and love, yeah, but love and

then love,

Mandy Smith: and that's Yeah,
and that just seems like such a

cliche. And it seems like such a
honestly, it seems like a

feminine thing and a overly
sensitive thing and an

emotional, weak, subjective
thing. But I'm seeing how when

human beings Give, give over the
parts their very selves, which

seem so small and insignificant
and subjective, the God of all

the universe, who's the most
real thing there is, is able to

fill those little lives and use
them as he's making all things

new. And it's, I think that's a
part of the healing that I

mentioned, to think that I can
see miracles happening here, and

I know that I had some part in
it. And when I look at my small

things, it was just daily. You
know, people across the

denomination are saying, like,
what happened? The whole

denomination is in decline. Why
is your church growing? What did

you do? You know? And I'm like,
Well, every day I walk to the

river and I asked the Lord, what
would you have. We do today, and

then I tried my best to do those
things imperfectly, and yet

somehow, three, four years
later, I'm seeing that that had

some effect, you know. So maybe
it's real, and maybe we, as

small as we seem, actually are
filled with this transcendent

glory of the eternal God who is
who knows how to use ordinary

people to do extraordinary
things? So I think I'll be

figuring that out for the rest
of my life.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, yeah,
I find that most strategy, and

I'm an apostolic person, right?
I love I love strategy, I love

architecture, but most of that
stuff's descriptive, and it

doesn't work as prescriptive.
The prescriptive stuff is the

little, the ordinary, the God.
You know, ordinary people are

God's plan A and then all these
other grand operating systems

are descriptive.

Mandy Smith: It's not about
setting aside our habits of

controlling things or or having
agency. It's about what's the

order of things, what's the cart
and what's the horse? You know?

So absolutely, it took a lot of
strategy. It took, took a lot of

thoughtfulness and skill and
expertise and reading and going

to conferences and all the rest.
Like, yes, this is not to make a

false dichotomy of spirituality
or competence. But I'm sure you

know this already. You know that
when we begin with seeking the

Lord, we're going to use every
little bit of competence we have

to be able to keep up with what
he is actually asking us to do,

and beyond whatever competence.
And you know, so it saddens me

that we we have a false choice
there.

Jessie Cruickshank: Often I love
it. That's so beautiful, Mandy.

I love it. I love it because we
do just focus on that, that

little, the today, the what's
right in front of me, when I can

embrace the fact that I'm a kid
and I don't know anything, and

I'm okay with that, and God's,
God's okay with that, like it's

actually the what he he desires.
And then I can be led by the

Spirit. And then God can use
whatever he's invested in me. I

don't have to carry this burden
about it, this cognitive load

about it, that God didn't hand
me. He can just be like, Oh,

remember that tool, remember
that skill, remember that

paradigm, remember? And he can
just pull them out of me. Just

seems a little lighter.

Mandy Smith: Yeah? And you can
actually laugh alongside of

people who are waiting for the
certainty and asking you the

five year plan. Because you can
be like, Yeah, I know. I get it.

I want to see it too. Like God's
just not offering us that right

now. So he's saying, Will you
walk with me one step at a time?

I have never, ever had God Hand
me a five year plan. I'm glad

for some people who do, but so
like you, you can join people in

their frustration with that.
Because I was, I'm frustrated

with that as well. But there's
also a sense of adventure, of

like we're journeying with Jesus
and we're inviting others to

join the adventure that became
our kind of byline, you know.

And so we it's not about
becoming comfortable. It's about

getting used to the discomfort.
And when you're used to the

discomfort, it's kind of becomes
fun. It comes becomes an

opportunity for just to keep
your eyes open, to watch for the

kingdom everywhere. But I don't
want to minimize, like, how

really painful it is to say yes
to Jesus all the time, and how

much it goes against your own
instincts of comfort,

convenience, understanding what
you're going to do, making other

people happy. That was a big one
for me, that I'm finding freedom

from just 50 Years of people
pleasing is not something that's

easy to overcome, but on the
other side of that, I'm finding

so much freedoms. What a
beautiful thing, that the way

God leads us to lead others, he
also has something in it for us,

some kind of healing hidden in
it for us, even if it half

Jessie Cruickshank: kills us
first. But maybe that's the

point, right? Maybe that does
worry Exactly.

Mandy Smith: It kills who we
thought we were, yeah, it killed

so we thought we were so we can
discover who

Jessie Cruickshank: we truly
are, yeah, yeah. Let's talk

about today some of that who we
truly are. Conversation. I would

love for you to share a story
that you were sharing at an

event we were both at recently,
and it that hit me very

profoundly. And, and I, you
know, we've, we've been at

different things together, you
know, in the past. And, you

know, I don't, you write, we,
you know, as you flow in and out

of spaces and meet your friends
and other parts of the world,

this one just really, really,
kind of wrecked me. And I don't,

I don't know if it's gonna how
you know, how it's gonna impact

anybody who's listening, but I
want to talk. I want to I would

love for you to share that story
so we can talk about, kind of

like, what that has taught you,
and we kind of unpack the

implications, the implications.
Hmm, that little cliffhanger,

Mandy Smith: yeah, yeah. Stay
tuned. Faithful listeners, yeah.

There was a moment, I think
there were probably 100 people

in the room, and I could feel
across the room. I was like, Oh,

something just happened in
Jesse, you know. And I was

telling a story of something
that happened about 10 years

ago. And I've been I've been
feeling called to talk about

this and write about this, and
honestly, been a little bit

disappointed with the response.
You know how sometimes you know,

God asks you to do something,
and there's a deep joy in it,

and so you expect there to be a
deep joy, or at least a strong

response in other people, and if
it doesn't have that response,

you're like, well, Did I mishear
You? Lord, what was going on

there? And so something happened
that moment just a few months

ago when I was sharing that
thing again that I've been

sharing for 10 years. And I I
felt in my body that it was

doing something in you, you
know. And I was like, Okay, I'm

not alone after all. But yeah,
10 years ago, I wrote, I think

my first way of sharing this was
writing something for missio

Alliance, and it's still on
their blog, because a man had,

you know, I feel like in
ministry or in the church at the

moment, and this has been
happening for maybe 20 years,

maybe more especially in the US.
We've been talking about all the

problems with the church, maybe
even before that, you know, the

whole like emerging church
thing, we've been going ad

nauseum about everything that's
wrong with the church. And so I

find myself in circles and
conversations like that often,

and one of the men in the
conversation just threw out, oh,

yeah, the church is a whore,
which I hate to even say, for

various reasons, especially
because I do not like that

language at all to be used of
women. But I say it still,

because I want people to hear
how I felt, like I was kicked in

the stomach, basically, like,
oh. And I didn't even know at

first what I why I had such a
strong reaction, or the depth of

why I had but it almost felt
like he was talking about my

mother, you know, like, ah. And
it took me some time to realize

that I think there was a sense
of real injustice in me. You

know, this was a brother of
mine. I love him. I understand

why he was saying that, and I
see the same concerns he has for

the church. I don't want to
minimize the fact that, yes, the

church has lost its way in so
many ways. But I think it just

made me really, I hate to say
the word angry. I'm feeling

myself hesitant to say angry on
behalf of the church, like,

protective,

Jessie Cruickshank: well, when,
when you were telling the story,

I felt angry. Yeah, yeah, not as
true, like, protective, like,

what? Yeah, human trafficking.
Like, shut

Mandy Smith: up, exactly right.
And so, you know, as a pastor, I

have had women in my
congregation who have been in

sex trafficking or victims of
sexual abuse, survivors, I

should say, of sexual abuse. And
for a man to send a woman into

sex trafficking and then to
shame her for it is like a

double injustice. And so for us,
and I lump myself in here too,

for us to do this damage to the
church and then to call her the

name for it is just a double
injustice. Instead of bringing

ourselves to repentance for how
we have done this damage to her.

We've we've made her into
something she was never intended

to be, and then we call her name
so that we can keep ourselves

pure of it. And so I didn't know
what to do with with that

frustration of this is a moment
for us to repent, not a moment

for us to stand back and point
the finger. And so just in

contrast to that, having such an
image in my heart of who

Ecclesia is, and I love that
it's a feminine ending. It's it

sounds like a woman's name,
ecclesia, and she is. She's

timeless, she's childlike, she's
always longing for life, and

Scripture tells us that Jesus
makes her spotless and lovely,

makes her whole. And you know,
the passage in Ephesians is a

bit awkward to read, because
it's talking about women

submitting to their husbands or
whatever, but it talks about

Christ loving the church and
giving Himself up for her to

make her holy by cleansing her
with the washing of water, by

the Word to present the church
to himself in splendor without a

spot or a wrinkle, that she may
be wholly without blemish. And

so I think I'm also feeling it
very strongly, because there are

many ways that I personally have
been sidelined or maligned as a

woman, and I have also found
such healing in who Jesus says

that I am, in the same way as an
individual woman or any person

can say, Here's how I've been
treated, but here's who Jesus

says I am is, is, I think,
relevant for the church as a

whole, the bride of. Christ to
say, Yes, this is how she's been

treated. But here is her eternal
identity. Jesus has already made

her whole. And so beyond our
vision of institutional church,

you know, we've made her a
factory, we've made her an army,

we've made her a brand. We've
done all this stuff to her, but

beyond all of that, she has not
lost her eternal identity of who

she is in Jesus of of who he has
made her to be. And so I I just

want to proclaim that, that
vision of who she truly is. And

so I wrote, I just want to read
a little bit of what I wrote out

of my frustration and anger, but
also my deep joy of the vision

of of how I see this beautiful
bride of Christ, that she is

pure and spotless and lovely,
knowing she has been made whole.

She is quietly fearless, humbly
courageous. She will not force

herself on anyone. But her joy
is winsome. Her dance is

inviting, and her laughter has
gravity. We cannot look away.

She is a healer, a creator, a
comforter, singing new things

into being, drawing many into
her song. She knows pain, but it

has not made her bitter.
Poverty, but it has not made her

miserly. She feeds multitudes,
nourishing the broken, sending

them out, rejoicing. She will
not be measured or caged, but

takes on many surprising forms,
all true to her nature. She is

gifted and multilingual. Her
gracious speech shapes new

stories, describing places we
long to visit, ways We long to

be. She is never reduced by
giving herself away, never

emptied from pouring herself
out. She is many things, brought

together, every color, woven
into a rich fabric, each part

with its purpose. She is a tree
bearing many kinds of fruit. She

is a Symphony played on
instruments of many timbers. She

is all and she is one, a whole
household in one body, and her

heart has never turned from her
beloved, but she is exhausted

from being ravished by the egos,
appetites and anxieties of men.

She longs to run free, hair
wild, skirts flying to fulfill

her calling. Will we let her
gonna sit with that for a second

and invite our listeners to do
the same.

Jessie Cruickshank: Each of us
imagine that the church looks

like that. The church is right.
It's not a building. And we say

that, and we know that. But when
you when you say, you know, put

a picture of the church in in
your head, we either see like,

some sort of like structure, or
maybe you see a broad multitude,

and you and you just see it, you
know, you see a bunch of people.

But what Jesus names the church
as is a bride. So he sees all of

that multitude, then as as a as
a one, and that one is, is a

bride. It's, it's, it's
feminine, it's motherly. It

holds all of us together. It,
you know, it, it does. It has

that kind of characteristic and
nature. And I think when I heard

you, when I heard you, tell the
story, yeah, I had a very

profound physical reaction to
it, like it was, it was it was

kind of like one of those old
chapel spaces, right? So it was

a little the walls were severe,
and so there's a little echoey

thing there. And like, I thought
I was going to scream, I thought

I was going to wail, and it was,
and I was just super, like, very

aware of what was happening
inside of me that I couldn't

control, and then the space and,
like, how loud it would be, you

know, it would just, like,
reverberate.

Unknown: I kind of wish you had,
yeah, like, I know that would,

Jessie Cruickshank: yeah, I
would have joined you and, and

my thought was, how dare you
talk about the bride of Jesus in

a way that God doesn't, and I
could just feel the profound

sadness that God must have when
people talk about her that way,

because that's not the way he
talks about her. So it means you

can't see her. It means you
won't lay your life down for it

means you're just another
Pharisee throwing a stone. Just

just, I could just feel the
chasm and the gap between the

story we were telling ourselves
about who the church is and who

God says she is, not who she
will be someday, even if you

think of God as outside of time,
like, like, that's the way God

sees the church now, in time,
he's just looking at different

things. And probably, you know,
those of us who are maybe cranky

or her. Hurt. You know, we're
not, we're not looking at the

whole picture. We're actually
looking at the minority. I mean,

if I think about the stories
that I know around people who

have very real, very real
stories of of harm, very real

stories of spiritual abuse, very
real stories of moral failure.

But then, given our the
opportunity that, that I have

to, to travel to talk with
different churches and pastors

and denominations, the number of
stories I hear of just beautiful

people that nobody will ever
know their name except for their

neighbor, who they did something
beautifully and kind for like,

like the number of stories, the
amount of stories of faithful,

ordinary people being loving.
Hands and feet of God are epic.

There's there's millions. And
those are just the ones that

like, like, I'm literally aware
of 1000s. And like, you know, if

we inventoried you, and all the
things that I don't know, and

all the which is like, such a
such a broad story, she is right

now beautiful.

Mandy Smith: And that's right,
and that's actually, that's

actually the norm, yeah, I
think, I think that the painful

stories of abuse are even more
horrific because they're

happening in a place that's
supposed to be so healing and

welcoming and safe, and so it's,
it's anti christ. I mean, it's

the exact opposite of Christ.
So, yeah, I Please don't hear

me. Anybody listening? Please
don't hear me minimizing the

brokenness of how things are,
especially in the Western

Church, I have been, yeah, I
have many, many stories of

painful experiences in the
church to tell. But something,

somehow, my healing process has,
I don't know, I feel like it's

given me space to imagine the
healing of the bride as well,

that that she also has been
mistreated by the church, by the

human institution, church, and
so, yeah, I have this, this

image of, I think this is what I
had in my mind when I heard

those words, she's she's a
whore, because I already had a

picture in my mind of this
woman, like I can see her face,

beautiful woman who's tied to a
rock. She's like chained to a

rock and used and abused for
some person's pleasure. But it's

not her choice, and her heart
has not turned from her beloved.

She knows her husband, but she's
caught in this slavery, and as

soon as she gets a chance, she
will run to him, and I can see

her hair flying wild, skirts
flying behind her. First chance

she gets, first chance, she's
freed. She's back to her

beloved. Her heart has not
strayed from him. And so yeah,

how can we, I guess, in many
ways, we are invited to live

with eyes in two places of both
spiritual, heavenly, eternal

realities and broken earthly
things at the same time that

somehow this is how it looks,
but at the same time, there's

this already, not yet. Kind of
thing, you know, like earlier in

Ephesians, it says Jesus is
already seated in his in the

heavenly places, far above all
rule and authority and power and

dominion, and above every name
that is named like we can't see

this, but we're promised that
this is already the case, and

has put all things under Jesus'
feet and made him the head over

all things for the church, which
is His body, the fullness of

Him, who feels all in all like
there's the word all and every

is just spoken over and over and
over in those few sentences,

that somehow We are already
reigning with Jesus, you know,

somehow we've already been made
whole. And, yeah, I think the

more that we beat ourselves up,
just like any person who's been

abused, the more that that
person says, This is all I am,

this is all I'll ever be. Then
it's self perpetuating. But I

think we're called in our own
personal brokenness and in our

brokenness, as the church to
say, but God says this of me,

and how would it look to live as
if that's really true, and maybe

that will help it to become more
true and to welcome others into

that truth too. So as you sit in
in the space that you are having

sat with line this heartache and
this message for 10 years now,

and seeing the simple, the
little things

Jessie Cruickshank: like what
what to you are the things that

both individuals need to
remember about themselves, and

then the bride needs to remember
about herself, like. Like Speak,

speak some truths to us about
who, who we are, who she is.

Mandy Smith: Yeah, well, first I
feel like I should say I

understand how uncomfortable it
is for men to be to consider

themselves a part of the bride
like I appreciate that's this

very strange thing, and lots of
cultural things get in the way

of feeling the comfort of that
and the intimacy of that like I

just think it's good to name
that, but as you're asking that

question, Jesse, the thing
that's coming to mind for me is

this beautiful story that's
still unfolding in my own little

congregation, which I wish I
could tell you the depth of the

crisis and the strongholds that
were here. But in the middle of

all that, a woman came to me,
who heard about the church

somehow called me one day and
had been in sex trafficking as a

teenager, and got out of it a
while ago, and since then, has

had been trying to end her life
every day for 16 years because

she felt like nothing, and she
she had been beaten down and

believed it, and believed she
didn't have a right to live. And

somehow, over the course of
these last three years, I've

watched, you know, she was
baptized, and I've watched layer

upon layer of healing happening
in her, stripping away all the

lies in her. And just last
month, she went home to the

Philippines where she grew up,
and they, the people in her

village, asked her, What has
happened to you? You look

different, you sound different.
And she started teaching them,

you know, she started sharing
her story, and then what people

wanted to know. And she's, after
being there for a few weeks, she

said to me, Well, we we've been
starting to get together every

Sunday, and we read scripture,
and I share my story, and we

pray together and we sing
worship songs. Is that okay? And

I said, you've just planted a
church. And then she said, Oh.

And then after that, I get on my
moped, and then I catch a boat,

I go to the next island, and I
do the same thing there on

Sunday afternoons. And I was
like, Okay, now you're a judge.

Now you've got a movement. And
she said, Oh, and we have Bible

study on Thursdays. Like all of
this without any funds, without

any buildings, without any you
know, she's not been to

seminary, but she has the Spirit
of God doing something powerful

in her. So not only is it so
beautiful to see what's

happening there in the
Philippines, and by the way,

she's come back now, and she
trained somebody to fill in for

her, you know, to lead it. And
she came back. So now she's got

this church running over there
that we need to be praying

about, like, wow, oh, I forgot
to mention, before she came

home, she baptized 12 people.
Come on, such an amazing yeah,

yeah. So now you see what I'm
saying about, like, really the

small things, because probably
in the Western Church, she

wouldn't be pegged as a leader
according to our usual ways of

looking for leaders, and it's so
it's blessing me to hear that

story and to think, wow, that
amazing things happening over

there. But also, when I look
back on my ministry over the

past three years, every time
I've been interacting with her,

I just thought, I'm teaching one
person how to pray. I'm helping

one person find healing. And had
no idea I was teaching her how

to pray so that she could teach
a whole village of people how to

pray, two villages, you know.
And so I wish the listeners

could see my eyes lighting up
with the story, you know,

because that that kind of stuff
just is real, you know. And, and

that's the reason so many of the
parts of the story just remind

me of the New Testament church,
you know. And that's the reason

why this thing has survived.
When the Roman Empire didn't,

you know it, it tried its best
with all of the armies and

military power and finances and
political whatever that it had,

it tried its best to keep down
the kingdom of God, and it is no

more. And meanwhile, I'm here on
the other side of the planet,

2000 years later, from where
Jesus was. And it's continuing

to spread, because it's
happening between people and God

and between one and, you know,
one person and another, and

nothing can stand in the way of
that, no matter what political

powers try to oppress us. And so
that gives me hope for this

beautiful bride who knows how to
welcome and how to nurture and

how to heal, if we will, if we
will, let her do her work in us

and through us. Yeah, it's
unstoppable.

Jessie Cruickshank: She's the
most resilient gritty I come

from the western part. The
United States. And so the women

that have been archetypes or
role models, if you will, for

this part of the country,
whether they're Sacagawea, who

helped Lewis and Clark get and
she had like a baby on the way,

like she takes them across the
United States and helps them

map, you know, the river system
all the way the Pacific. And by

the way, she both got pregnant
from one of the dudes and had

the baby on the way and carried
it while she's guiding them,

right? So, so you've got, you've
got Sacagawea and these, these

amazing Native American women on
one hand, and then you have

pioneer women on the other you
know who, who also grit out this

because it's an unforgiving
country. It's an unforgiving

landscape, not unlike Australia
and And so that idea of giving

birth on the way seems very
Ecclesia like to me.

Mandy Smith: We may not be able
to embrace those images of bride

without doing some healing from
the caricatures that we have of

women. I think in many ways, as
much as women were limited in

Jesus time, there was also a
value for the power of a bride,

or the power what what women do
in the home or in the community

that we have some kind of shame
about, that it's weak or

insignificant or whatever. You
know, I think, I think actually,

that the industrial revolution
has meant that human beings, men

and women, mostly see them, see
ourselves through the lens of

comparing ourselves to machines,
whether we are aware of it or

not, and expecting to be I mean,
it's makes sense, because in in

the marketplace, that's what
we're being compared to, and

even more so with AI. And so we
do have these unconscious

pressures to be invincible, to
never be tired, to never run out

of energy, to never get old, to
never get sick, to never have

needs. And there's this inhuman
power that that, I think is is

cruel, that crushes men to be
invincible, that then gets

knocked on to women, you know,
in other ways and and I love the

fact that Jesus was not ashamed
to be a human being. That's one

of the most powerful things to
me about his ministry, and I see

that in his temptations, in the
wilderness, that in every case

you know, I think Satan knew he
couldn't distract Jesus from his

mission, so instead, he tries to
shame Jesus about how small he

is. To accomplish such a massive
mission like you've got it. You

want to change this whole world.
You just got one little voice

and two little feet, and so he's
trying Satan tries to tempt

Jesus to have all these
shortcuts to be impressive and

to get things done quickly. And
instead of looking at one face

at a time, one person at a time,
as Jesus thankfully chose to do

on a human scale. Satan's like
you could have a brand, you

could have a, you know, a
campaign, you could have all

this stuff. And every single
time, Jesus just refuses to be

ashamed of his smallness. And I
think it's because, you know, I

think he longs for us to be as
willing to be human as he was to

be as free as he was to see that
the things that we are tempted

to believe are small are
actually the most powerful

eternal things, and their
kingdom things are compared to

small things, because human
thing that's where the human

things are. The kingdom is on
the scale of the human which,

ah, is just beautiful. Thank
Jesus. Praise the Lord that

that's the case. Otherwise, he's
just God in the heaven, in

heaven, sitting on a cloud, and
never became a human being like

Jessie Cruickshank: us, and he
stays forever as a human like so

for me, there's there's that as
well, like there's no re the

story of redemption and
recreation doesn't pull us out

of our humanness. It's so hard
to get your head around, isn't

it? What do you think Jesus
wants his bride to know that

might be a either a new message,
timely for today, or something

to reminder of that's an eternal
truth. Because when I think of,

let me. Let me just say this one
thought, though, as you, as you

contemplate that, like, like,
when I think about the role that

men play in being part of the
bride, it's, you know, would you

want? Would you want somebody to
talk about your daughter or your

wife or your mom in the way that
people talk about the church,

right? I would, I would hope
that that would rise up a

justice, defensive, protective
urgency, and then in them as

well, and probably for slightly
different reasons. It might come

from a, you know, a different a
different background, a

different picture in their head.
But, you know, would you, would

you want someone to talk about?
Your bride that way,

Mandy Smith: there are cultural
categories that go deep and that

have shame attached to them, not
only the shame of these things

that seem small, but the shame
of these things that seem

feminine, that are actually
human capacities, that have been

named, that have been come have
that we've come to see as

feminine capacities. And I
actually read an article by a

friend who's who's a kind of a
mega church guy, and he said

that, I wish he's taken the
article down there so I can't

find it anymore, because I kind
of challenged him about it. But

I think he The article said
something like, and I'm not

over, I'm not over, like,
casting it, I'm not what's the

word being hyperbolic. It
basically said, what can the

church do? Because men don't
like niceness and kindness and

self sacrifice, so we got to do
something else to get men into

the church, and I was hoping he
would be like, how can we be a

part of shaping culture to say
these things are human

capacities. These are not
feminine things, hospitality and

selflessness and welcome and
healing and and intimacy and and

I have a lot of men in my life
who are finding such healing in

stepping into those things.
There's, there's a, there's a

masculine way to be those
things. There's a, it's a,

there's a human things. And
Jesus was these things, you

know? And so, yeah, it does
some, it does some deep work in

us to go against cultural norms
and say, Forget about what the

world tells me that I am as a
man or as a woman or as some

kind of cog in some crazy, big
machine. What if Jesus is

calling me to be like him no
matter who I am, and if that

will just disrupt my own
understanding these small little

boxes that the world has put me
in through media and advertising

and all the things, these
fearful, little stereotypes,

caricatures that we've created.
And if for us as individuals to

say yes to Jesus to become the
fullness of who He is in us as

the most fully human human
there's ever been. Then we, as a

community, as we're each doing
that communicate something to

the world that says you don't
have to be stuck in those little

boxes either. You know, what
does it look like to let the

fullness of of Jesus spirit
expand you. I'm just, I just

keep imagining this kind of
deflated, blow up animal or

something, you know, that's kind
of like deflated, and just

trying to kind of contort
itself, to squeeze between all

of the stereotypes and
caricatures it's trying to

avoid, and for it to be filled
with air, you know, to to

stretch to its full capacity and
become the wholeness of who

Jesus has says we are. And to it
will bump up against some really

uncomfortable spaces. It will,
it will make us say, oh, but

it's not masculine to do that,
or it's not taken seriously to

do that. Or it's not, you know,
it's shameful somehow to be

that, and yet my my experience
has been and my prayer for

others is that the joy of what
Jesus sees in us will be so real

that we'll be willing to press
against those things and become

the fullness of who we are, so
that others can say what is

happening in you. I want to know
about that? Yeah, and even

though I'm coming out of this
really crushing season, I've

I've done my best, imperfectly,
to say yes to Jesus, like

something in his face is
reflecting back to me, who I how

he sees me to be. I don't see it
yet, but I see the joy in his

face, reflecting what he like,
the face that he sees. I have

that I don't yet see in myself.
And so I just want to keep

saying yes to that, and it
requires me to push against all

these very real vows I've made
in the past, and all these very

real concerns and fears of what
that might mean about me or what

others might think about me. But
I've had several people say to

me in the last couple of months,
what happened to you? Like

somebody, somebody like sat me
down and had, like, written out

and rehearsed this and said,
Mandy, you are more real than

I've ever seen you to be like,
just keep doing whatever you're

doing. Keep doing that, you
know. And so the funny thing is,

like, it's not from any efforts
I've made to be real or to be

strong or to be smart or to be
whatever. It's actually felt

like a lot of emptying, but the
more we empty, the more space we

have for the Spirit to fill. And
that's true for us as

individuals and as the body of
Christ,

Jessie Cruickshank: and he's so
beautiful. Well. If you've been

listening to this, I hope, I
hope, that the Lord creates a

picture in your mind and heart
of who he sees, the church, the

bride to be, and how, how he
calls us. And yeah, what that

means for you, because I
believe, is we all shine, then

she shines, right? And then the
church, like we are created to

be good news, both individually
and collectively, and as we

learn how to be good news
ourselves individually, then we

get to be good news together.
And the world doesn't think that

that works right. The world
thinks that community is a

failed experiment in so many
ways. And some people may even

think that the community of
faith is a failed experiment,

but the story doesn't end that
way. That's not That's not the

narrative. And I believe that
free people, free people, so we

get to maybe remembering who she
is helps us remember who we are

and living as who we are helps
us live what she's always

supposed to be.

Mandy Smith: Absolutely Amen.
Yeah, yep. May it be so. May it

be so.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, I want
to thank you all for listening

to us, the ordinary discipleship
podcast. You can get all of the

other episodes. I think I don't
know what season this is going

to come out in, but there's
seasons, multiple seasons,

wherever you listen to your
podcasts, and you can always

find out more about the
resources, the things that we

offer, on ordinary discipleship,
how to be a disciple maker, on

ordinary community, how to be a
people who work together to be a

community that disciples a
healing and restoring place and

yeah, identity formation theory,
where you can learn more about

who God created you to be and
how you grow in that over the

scope of your lifetime, so you
can find out about

those@hooology.co That's W, H,
O, o, l, o, G, y.co, and we'll

see you next time you.