What if the church’s leadership crisis isn’t a failure of character, but a failure of systems? In this conversation, Jesse Cruikshank sits down with longtime friend, pastor, author, and leadership reformer Lance Ford to examine how modern leadership models—largely borrowed from business and industry—have quietly reshaped the church in ways Jesus never intended. Drawing from Lance’s new book The Atlas Factor, they trace the surprisingly recent rise of “leadership” as a dominant framework, explore how power concentrates and erodes empathy, and reflect on why so many pastors are burning out while congregations remain stalled. Together, they recover a biblical vision of the church as a body—shared, relational, Spirit-led—where discipleship replaces control, and where movement returns when no one tries to play the head except Christ himself.

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