What if the church’s leadership crisis isn’t a failure of character, but a failure of systems? In this conversation, Jesse Cruikshank sits down with longtime friend, pastor, author, and leadership reformer Lance Ford to examine how modern leadership models—largely borrowed from business and industry—have quietly reshaped the church in ways Jesus never intended. Drawing from Lance’s new book The Atlas Factor, they trace the surprisingly recent rise of “leadership” as a dominant framework, explore how power concentrates and erodes empathy, and reflect on why so many pastors are burning out while congregations remain stalled. Together, they recover a biblical vision of the church as a body—shared, relational, Spirit-led—where discipleship replaces control, and where movement returns when no one tries to play the head except Christ himself.

ORDER Jessie’s newest book, Ordinary Discipleship: How God Wires Us for the Adventure of Transformation → https://a.co/d/51j86DG

For more great stuff, check out: Ordinary Discipleship by Whoology: https://whoology.co

Follow us on social media:
https://instagram.com/ordinarydiscipleship
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Follow Jessie on social media:
Instagram: https://instagram.com/yourbrainbyjess
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jessica.s.cruickshank/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/yourbrainbyjess

ORDER Jessie’s newest book, Ordinary Discipleship: How God Wires Us for the Adventure of Transformation → https://a.co/d/51j86DG

For more great stuff, check out: Ordinary Discipleship by Whoology: https://whoology.co

Follow us on social media:
https://instagram.com/ordinarydiscipleship
https://facebook.com/ordinarydiscipleship

Follow Jessie on social media:
Instagram: https://instagram.com/yourbrainbyjess
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jessica.s.cruickshank/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/yourbrainbyjess

Jessie Cruickshank is a disciple-maker, wilderness guide, and ordained minister. She has trained thousands of people how to survive when their life depended on it and earned a Master’s degree in experiential education at Harvard to learn how the brain works to help people train more effectively.

The key to discipleship is not more information, but learning how to create intentional environments where people can learn and grow. By working with the brain and treating individuals as whole persons, you too can discover how God wired our brains for transformation. You already have all the tools you need, it is time to activate them in you and your church.