Jacob: All right. Well, here we
are again on the ordinary

discipleship Podcast. I'm Jacob.
I'm here with Julia schmaltz and

Jesse Cruikshank, and we are
talking about discipleship,

surprise, surprise. But
specifically, we're talking

about some topics that get
covered in Jesse and Julia's

book, becoming good news,
subtitle, reimagining

discipleship through identity,
story and science. The two of

you and I have been working
together now for a couple of

years. Y'all met about a year
before I did, but we've been

kind of CO laboring on hoology.
And the dream of hooology is

that everybody in your church
would be making disciples. And

one of the things we've realized
is that most people feel

inadequate to do the one thing
that God has called us to do.

And so the question becomes
like, if we're going to ignite

disciple making movements, what
does that take? And along the

way, as we were wrestling with
that, you all ended up writing

this book becoming good news. So
what's the leap from Ignite

disciple making movements to
becoming good news, reimagining

discipleship through identity
story and science. How did we

get there?

Jessie Cruickshank: Journey,
joy, suffering, you know, just

the whole hero story arc. But
this book is really kind of the

culmination of how we think
about different aspects of

discipleship, whether it's who
you are and who you are

becoming. So while ordinary
discipleship was written to the

person to come alongside
somebody else and help them be

changed by Jesus, too, this is
kind of like the first person.

How do you become good news?
What is your journey? What is it

that God is asking for us, you
know, to go on this adventure.

God is asking us to go on. What
is his desire for us? And, you

know, we open the book by
starting where it started, for

me, and then we bring in, and
then we bring in Julia and how

we met. But for me, the this
journey really came into focus

when I went to Harvard and and
for me, going to Harvard was not

an ambition or a goal. It was
what God asked me to do on the

backside of not being able to
have a family. So we spent eight

years, my husband and I spent
eight years trying to have

children. We lost four babies,
and the fourth one I lost two

weeks before I moved to Boston,
and just this gut wrenching

process of wanting and teaching
people discipleship and teaching

people to be disciple makers in
the in the middle of nowhere,

Wyoming through solid rock
outdoor ministries and the

wilderness program and
everything he taught there, And

then going through this, this
season, this change, where the

thing that I thought, that I
wanted for my life was not what

Jesus wanted for my life. He
wanted something else. And it

was just it was crushing. It
broke me, physically,

emotionally, spiritually. And I
remember driving across with my

friend Rachel, who's driving me
to Boston. And I remember

driving across I'm, I'm
literally three days post

surgery. And I said, God, what
are you doing? I don't want to

move I don't want to go to
Harvard. I don't want to do

these things. I wanted my life
to go a completely different

direction. And God said, Will
you let me take from you what I

want to take from you? And will
you let me give you what I want

to give you? And just you know
anytime that you're completely

broken and on a puddle on the
floor or the the car seat, if

you will, like, I gave my life
to the Lord when I was five, and

I every opportunity I've had to
take it back, I don't I just,

you know, surrender again. So it
was almost a salvation moment

again, where I said, Okay, God,
you can do it's your life. You

can do what you want. I
surrender all of it again to

you. And in the awareness of
what that meant, what I didn't

What I didn't know, what I could
not have imagined, was how much

God was going to change my life
and the lives of everyone I had

yet to meet because of that trip
to Harvard, because of what he

taught me there, because of what
he showed me there, not not the

degree, but like the research
and the studying and and

learning about autobiographical
memory, and how these

revelations are the what the
Holy Spirit put together.

Because I didn't learn this in
my classroom. I learned this in

my individual study around how
autobiographical memory system

in our body is the memory system
that God created for us to learn

in that transforms us, that
makes everything he asked us to

do easier, which is why we can
make disciples, because he

created a system in US
biologically, so that when we

learn things through experience,
we learn things. Through story,

it automatically changes our
life. Like everything that has

come out of my life since that
trip is because of the what the

Lord has taught, what the Lord
has showed me through the

science and then connecting me
with you guys, like, like, we

don't think we can make
disciples, because we've been

doing it the hard way, and there
is actually an easier way, which

I would not have known if I
hadn't gone through my own

hero's journey of being
completely splayed open and

broken and that kenotic journey
in Philippians two like we come

to the other side of I come to
the other side of that, and I'm

like, Oh, if I hadn't yielded to
what the Lord was doing, think

about all the things that we
wouldn't know and the dots that

wouldn't connect it, and the
people like being with you guys,

I would not have connected to.
And so this book becoming good

news is part of that story. And
then how I met Julia, and how

together we we helped each other
discover things and connected

dots. And Jacob, you've helped
us connect dots to create a

different way of looking at
discipleship, discipleship

that's story based, discipleship
that's autobiographical memory

grounded so that we're actually
working with how God

biologically created us to
transform, so we don't have to

work harder. We can just be in
the space of grace better. And

so that's what this book, that's
what this book comes to is

looking at how story and science
are, how God created us to

transform. And where do we
transform? We transform in our

identity we transform in who we
believe we are, who we know God

to be, and how we get to support
each other on that formational

journey.

Unknown: Yeah, that's good. So
one thing I heard you say there

is like in in the book ordinary
discipleship that you wrote,

Jesse, there's sort of a couple
of key definitions that like

discipleship is being changed by
Jesus, and disciple making is

helping others be changed by
Jesus too. What I heard you say

is like becoming good news is
the story of how we are changed

by Jesus. So a person might read
ordinary discipleship and go,

Oh, that's great. I would now I
see that all I have to do is

help others be changed by Jesus,
like I was changed by Jesus. And

then they might say, Well, how
am I changed by Jesus, then

that's this book is the answer
to that question,

Julia: Jesse, will you explain
the memory systems? Because

autobiographical memory is
incredibly important, but the

other memory system is a
semantic memory system, and that

for you was the huge aha moment.
And then, if you can also just

talk real briefly about, then
that narratives, then that we

began, and how then those can be
changed, because those that's

really for us is, is the
foundation of how we talk about

storytelling and narrative, and
then how God has formed us. To

your point.

Jessie Cruickshank: Jacob, yeah,
so autobiographical memory is

one of your main long term
memory systems, and it stands in

contrast to your other main long
term memory system, which is

semantic memory. And semantic
memory is your memory of data,

facts and points and summaries
and things that you memorize and

store it in your prefrontal
lobe, and you forget it super

quickly, so you can memorize and
study stuff for that test, and

then you forget it by the next
day. It's all gone by the end of

the week. And it's a memory
system that's created to turn

over really, really rapidly.
You're not It's not created to

be that long term without a lot
of work. So, so that's one type

of long term memory system, one
we mostly tap into through

schooling and stuff like that.
The other, cramming for a test,

right? Cutting for the test that
none of us remember, and all the

capitals the United States, of
the states that none of us

remember. That's that long term
memory system. If you're good at

it, you can go on Jeopardy and
you're going to win money and

you're going to help your friend
win trivia. So so only some

people are good at it. I happen
to be one of those. But like

nobody else is good. The other
type of long term memory system

is autobiographical memory, and
this memory system is distinct

from and not that interconnected
with your semantic memory

system, but it's actually stored
in your whole body, so your

whole body remembers your
experiences. So it's your

autobiography, it's your it's
your experiences. That's how you

feel about things. It's how you
remember your story. And is

highly interconnected with
identity, although it's not

exactly the same, but it's like,
who, who you have been, what

you've been through, how you
feel about that, how you think

about that, again, stored in
your whole body, and you're made

to keep it. You're made to
remember this, things that are

stored, stored in this memory
system. It's also then, what's

super amazing is it's the only
memory system that can project

into the future. So the way that
we remember the past and think

about the past and our
imagination for what could

happen in the future are the
same process in the brain. It's

autobiographical memory,
semantic memory, data fact,

memory cannot project into the
future, so semantic memory

cannot answer the question.
Question, How do I apply this to

my life? So if you learn that
God loves you as a data point,

and you have no experience or
story around that, it's just a

data fact, Jesus loves me this,
I know, the end, you literally

cannot apply it to your life. So
when you come into those

moments, when we have those
experiences where you're like,

wait a minute, is God for me, if
you don't have an experience

around that, it's not in your
autobiographical memory. It's

stored in your semantic memory.
It's just a data point. You

literally cannot apply it to
your life. You literally cannot

make it and add it into the
imagination of what you think

about tomorrow. So if we do
discipleship through experience,

through story, talking about and
feeling and being embodied in in

what we're learning, it's stored
in autobiographical memory, and

it automatically changes our
tomorrow. We automatically apply

it to our life. We automatically
project it into the future. So

all we have to do is change our
methodology of how we're

learning, and God does the heavy
part, the heavy lifting of

changing our tomorrow because
we're using the right system. So

that's how it's connected with
story. Story and

autobiographical memory are the
same arc and the same story

takes us into our
autobiographical memory. So when

I met Julia, and she was a story
expert, you know, she started

bringing in this expertise and
layering it with the

autobiographical memory. So she
brought the story and I brought

the science, and together, we
were like, Yes, this is the

journey of our identity, of how
we are becoming more like Jesus,

how we are being changed through
story and through the brain

science of the autobiographical
memory.

Unknown: Yeah, something that
jumped out to me, what you were

just talking about, Jesse, is
like semantic memory we can't

apply to our life. And then
Julia, you were talking about

semantic memory is like cramming
for the test. And so much of

discipleship, is that, right?
So, like, I come from a doctrine

heavy faith tradition where,
like you, you come into the

church, and the new member class
is learn all the doctrine, and

like you're going to prepare for
a test, and when I'm hearing you

say, Jesse, it's like, and I
can't apply like, but you can't

apply that to your life unless
you had an experience of it,

which then sort of for me, when
we talk about discipleship, and

what does it mean to be formed
in faith? The natural corollary

there is like, faith needs to be
something I live like. I think

the distinction is so many
people think of faith as

cramming for a test that's going
to get me into heaven, and

that's why they drill on
doctrine because they're like, I

just need to have the right
answers when Saint Peter asks me

at the pearly gates. But what?
What you're saying? And I think

what we're saying is, like, no
faith is for you today here on

Earth, like to help you live
into the life that Jesus won for

you today.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah,
there's no theology test in

heaven. There's there's none.
We're not gonna, we're not gonna

know whose doctrine is right or
wrong in that kind of a way. I

don't think so. As I like to
say, you're not accountable for

what you know, but you are
accountable for how you love,

and

Unknown: that's a story
experience, and your theology

has to work on Monday morning,
so your half your theology has

to work when you're driving to
Harvard across country two weeks

after having lost your fourth
baby. Like you it has to work

when you know my your husband
has cancer and a heart attack

and you're no longer or when
you're no longer at the church

that you love like it has to
work because, because, if it

doesn't, then, then what? What
are we putting faith in? And so

a huge aha moment for me was
actually reading stages of

faith, which is by by James
Fowler, which was one of the

foundational books that Jesse
was was reading at Harvard, and

he and one of the first things
that he does is actually define

faith. And the that, you know,
in the Greek, the word is

pastua, which is the same word
that we in English translate as

faith, belief and trust. It's
all one word. In the Greek, it's

not so, you know, we say we put
our faith in. We say we believe.

We say we have trust. It's all
one word in the Greek. And when

it was translated, the Greek was
translated into the Latin. It's

translated as credo, where we
get the word creed. I believe in

God the Father. I believe in
Christ the Son. We have creeds.

So we took that word faith, so
to speak, and made it about a

belief system in terms of
semantic memory. I believe

Fowler talks about how this word
faith is actually more closely

related to Fidelity, which is a
word that was about who you put

your faith in. It was always
relational. Who do you put your

faith in? Who do you put your
trust in? Who do you put Who do

you believe in, not semantic
memory. Memory. Those are

relational, autobiographical
memory systems. And how we are

formed at the very basic stages
of our development is, how is

who we put our first trust in is
going to be our family. We have

fidelity to our family, the
people around us. Now, if that's

a great experience, then we
learn to trust that we can trust

God and we can trust people. If
we have a poor experience when

we are first born, if we're, you
know, then we learn that we

can't trust people, and then we
therefore can't trust God. And

so I think one of the things
that what we're trying to do is

we're helping. We're hoping that
we can help redefine what faith

is that, you know, one of the
first things that we talk about

is is going to be that, you
know, we we had to ask questions

differently, not what, why and
how, questions when it came to

discipleship. You know, we did.
You said this when you started

the episode Jacob, that it was
like, you know, how do we ignite

discipleship in every church?
It's, you know, we're asking,

why don't people disciple? It's
because they don't believe that

they can. They don't believe
that they're good enough, that

they're worthy enough, that
they're smart enough, that they

have any that's why people don't
do it. Where do they get that

belief system? Does God call us
into something where he says,

oh, yeah, I'm calling you to
make disciples, but you're not

good enough at it. So yeah, good
luck with that. Or is it the

fact that we feel like we're not
good enough, is actually the

path to discipleship and him
making us into who that is. What

Jesus is saying is I, you know,
follow me and I will make you. I

will make you to become fishers
of men. It is in that when that

word that's translated from into
the Greek there that I will make

you is the same word that the
Septuagint, when they translate

the creation story, is saying.
And in the beginning, God

created the heavens and the
earth, the God who creates that

is the same word that the
Septuagint right there, that I

will make you into. I'm going to
make you into fishers of men.

It's a formational making that
God is making and remaking us.

And so that was really where we
started with autobiographical

memory. And even story is we
have a story according to what

we believe is our narrative
because of things that are

stored in us. As you know, if
you've ever read the body keeps

score, you know, there's,
there's so much science that's

being discovered just in our
generation. I mean, finally,

we're able to prove Romans 12,
one and two, and that it

literally is stored in our
bodies. All of these things are

there. And so we think that this
part of what we're hoping to do

in this book is to help show
that God has wired us in our

autobiographical memory system,
and that a part of discipleship,

the Holy Spirit is restoring us
and reinterpreting for us our

story through his lens, just
like the New Testament

reinterprets the Old Testament
for us through the lens of

Jesus. That's what we're hoping
that we can we can show is that

that's really the the path of
discipleship over a lifetime is

how God forms us and reshapes
our story through a literally

rewiring our autobiographical
memory.

Jessie Cruickshank: And then you
don't have to study to be a

follower of Jesus, like you're
studying for school, right? You

just have to let Jesus restore
you. And we can, we can talk

about, you know, that at some
point in another episode, like

even what that means, but you
have a whole system. Your

biology is dedicated to that,
and your biology is dedicated to

that working because we always
live out of our story. We don't

live out of our values, we don't
live out of our semantic memory,

we don't live out of our creeds.
We live out of our story, we

live out of our identity, we
live out of what is stored in

our autobiographical memory. So
if we can focus on that, then we

become good news. And good news
is an epistle, right? Your life

becomes an epistle. The
foundational verse for this is

Second Corinthians three, three
that your life is a story, a

letter from heaven. Your life is
a good news story written by

Heaven, written by Christ to the
rest of the world as a witness.

And so that's what we want to
help people discover how to do.

Is like, oh, it really is story
identity and science and we are

created to be good news. It's,
it's not an effort. It's

actually like, like, jump in the
river and let the river carry

you. It'll take you there.

Unknown: So if you want to go
deeper on these topics, make

sure you're looking for Jesse
and Julia's book becoming good

news, reimagining discipleship
through identity story and

science. We're so glad you've
joined us. Come back again for

the ordinary discipleship
podcast. You.