Jacob: Welcome back. I am Jacob.
I'm here with Jesse Cruikshank

and Julia. We are back on the
ordinary discipleship podcast.

Lately, we've been talking a lot
about some topics that you can

find in Jesse and Julia's book,
becoming good news, reimagining

discipleship through identity
story and science. On another

episode, we talked about
autobiographical memory and this

idea that we're shaped through
story, and that as we live out

our faith, that's where the
learning really happens. A

question that came to mind for
me is like this, this concept of

autobiographical memory, of
tracking my identity as it's

developed through my story, is
autobiographical memory, just

writing my own story or or tell
me more about what that is and

why it's so central to our
discipleship.

Jessie Cruickshank: It's a
really key question, because it

comes down to the crux of what
discipleship is, versus self

determination, right? So the
self determination is when, and

really honestly, it's an
idolatry of my own agenda is

when I'm holding the pen to
write my story, or like in

control, I'm holding the pen to
write your story, and I am

trying to exert my agenda and my
will to control or to determine

what this outcome is. How is the
story going to go? Well,

discipleship of Jesus is about
putting down the pen and saying,

Oh, wait, I'm not the author of
my story, Christ is the author

and the perfecter of our faith.
So I'm going to put down the pen

and I'm going to trust the story
that Jesus is writing through my

life, I'm going to trust God as
the Creator of my personality

and my being, and I am going to
have faith in God. God is who He

says He is. And so the story
he's writing through my life,

the story he created me to live
out, is actually a good story.

But like those are really,
really big things to believe and

really, really big things to do,
because not every story that we

live in is truth. In fact, most
of us have embodied and stored

in our body through our
perception as children, as

limited people, we have stored
all of these stories that aren't

actually true, they're actually
false.

Jacob: So what I'm hearing you
say is like autobiographical

memory is really about allowing
God to author your story that

you discover through living it
out. That's the autobiographical

part, and then, as you do, it
will run counter to narratives,

stories that maybe you've
believed about yourself in the

past. If we expose ourselves to
the story that God is writing

with our life, God's story for
us will run counter to stories

that we've believed in the past.

Julia: You know what's what's
interesting is that our emotions

develop before our thoughts. So
I think that that's, that's a

bit of what we're saying. But
what when we had to start

wrestling through this, we're
like, why would God create

emotions before he creates our
ability to communicate those

things? And so what you know,
the more that we're discovering

about the brain. And I'm
certainly not an expert, but

Jesse is so she'll she can tell
you what's true about what I'm

saying, but what, what? The more
we're discovering. And really,

those those advances in
technology, the imaging of the

brain, only came about in the
last 40 years, so 30 years

actually. So in the last 30 to
40 years, in our generation,

they started being able to
actually explore our brains and

how they're formed. And what
they're discovering is that

Romans 12, one and two are true,
that you can that the renewing

of your mind, that your mind can
actually change your brain

physiology. And so the
narratives that are baked into

our brains in those early years,
and the emotions that are stored

that creates the narratives that
you live out of the emotions

that you live up, you know, they
call them, the core memories

that are formed actually become
that's why, when you get angry

with your kids when you're 30
years old and you're like, where

did that come from? Like, you're
like, Wait, this isn't something

that I was expecting. You go,
Wait, something's going on here.

I should not be getting this
pode out of something that is

not that that's happening here
in this moment, you go, where

did that come from? That's
something that's stored in our

autobiographical memory system.
It's a core memory. And so what

we're what we're talking about
here, is about how those be

create, those neuro pathways.
Those are narratives, whether

they're true or false, what
discipleship is God redefining

and him showing us what that is,
that actually repentance is.

I've heard Jesse say this
multiple times, and she says it

the best, that repentance is a
miracle that we we our brains do

not change on their own, but God
can change our brains, and God

can rewire our brains, and
that's actually what he does.

And when he does that, and He
gives us His interpretation of

what's happened in in our lives
and in our. Past and the lens by

which we're going to start to
see things. That's actually what

discipleship was, that's giving
us then his story to redefine,

define our autobiographical
memory. Great.

Jacob: So I know you guys talk
about four false narratives in

the book becoming good news
about lies, individualism,

perfectionism and power. So is
there like, Give us an example

of one of those things and how
God is rewiring our brain to

live out the story that he's
giving us, not the story that

those false narratives are
giving us.

Julia: Imagine two siblings that
grow up with one another and

they become adults, and they
look back on their childhood,

same parents, same
circumstances, same idyllic

childhood, and one has run off
and is a drug addict and is

like, my parents are the worst
people that have ever existed on

the face of the planet, and the
other one are saying my parents

are great, and they are the best
parents. Which one's right,

which one's true and which one's
false? Right? Like it's not. The

thing that we have to look at is
that my interpretation of things

as somebody else, someone else's
interpretation of things, one is

true, one is false, but they're
both based upon my perspective.

They're both based upon my
perception of the RE of the

events that took place. And so
again, which one's true with

which one's false? And so there
has to be a third person, or the

Holy Spirit that reinterprets
them for us to tell us what is

true and which is false. There
has to be somebody else that

says this is a false narrative,
and this is a true narrative for

your life. Now it doesn't
matter. Does it matter what the

events that took place? Yes or
no. Maybe what it does matter is

my perception of what took
place, and that's what gets

stored in our autobiographical
memory system. So when we talk

about the narratives that we're
believing about our life, we're

talking about four storylines,
and this is what we outline in

the book, that four story lines
that we consider essential to

discipleship. And those four
storylines are identity, those

authority, community and
maturity. And so what we what

we're saying is all of those are
taking place all the time.

Consider it like you're the
moons that are just orbiting all

the time, like in your
ecosystem. They're always

happening. They're always taking
place. And so identity is, you

know, the question of who am I?
And we'll get into this as we go

along, and we'll define it more
clearly in a future episode. But

identity is very simply the
truest thing about your I Am. It

is the thing that is absolutely
true about who God says you are.

It's about who God names you to
be. Science actually has not

come up with a common definition
of identity. In fact, if most of

them will say, you know,
scientists will say that it

happens when you maybe hit, you
know, 20 years old and like laid

out a lesson, should you begin
to define your own identity?

Some, some scientists talk about
it in terms of the ego, but

we're we don't believe that's
true because we believe that

we're made in the image and
likeness of God, and so God has

defined our identity. Naming is
a key element to that. And so we

believe that God has given us
identity when we are formed,

that we get to receive that from
God as He speaks who he calls us

to us. That's identity
community, then is about who do

we belong to, and that
ultimately that's going to

change throughout our life.
That's our family, our friends,

our church communities are all
these different you know, our

schools, the people that we're
around, and our community has a

really big impact on how we're
formed and how and who we

believe we are, and our ability
to trust those around us. And so

we have to ask the question, Who
do we belong to now and and

then, what is our role in that?
Who are we becoming? And that

really is the question of
maturity, that that's actually

the point of our discipleship,
is that we're going to be

maturing over our lifetime. And
so we have to keep asking, Who

are we becoming? And then on the
other side of that is in our

authority, who do we represent?
And so when we talk about false

narratives, Jacob, and you just
mentioned them, all the false

narratives, it's the false
versions of that. So when we

talk about a false sense of
identity. It is what's the false

narrative? A false identity is
believing that you're something,

that you're not, that you're not
worthy, that you're not good

enough, that you are, that
you're stupid, those lies that

just are happening all the time.
A false identity is a false

sense of self, a false
community, then is feeling like

you've actually have to do it on
your own, or that you don't

matter, or that you don't need
people, or that that people

don't matter, and so you have
broken relationships there,

instead of belonging a false
maturity then is feeling like

that you have to maybe be
perfect, right? Or that you have

to be Superman or Superwoman and
just do it all yourself, and

that it's going to be upon you
to do it versus, you know, or or

feeling like, if you don't do it
perfectly, and you fall short,

you know, we say it, oh, we've
sinned and fallen short of the

glory of God. Okay, yes, however
those become doing exercises,

instead of, we are living in a
lie, because God calls us as

children. God calls us his own.
God says that He is with us. And

so we're believing these false
narratives there and then, in

terms of authority, we're
talking about power. And we have

a really weird, you know, a
false sense of power and

position that we really want to
address in terms of our in terms

of these false narratives. So
I'll let Jesse define what the

rest of those are, but those,
but I think it's important that

we understand the true side as
well as the false side.

Jessie Cruickshank: There for
me, discipleship is the

recasting of these narratives.
We're retraining and reforming

our autobiographical memory,
because that is the memory

system we live out of
automatically and any kind of

like work and memorization and
like, well, let me just get the

data in me into my semantic
memory. Doesn't actually change

us. So if I'm going to be a
disciple of Jesus, I need these

narratives to be exposed through
truth telling and confession,

and then either I need to repent
for where it's not in alignment

with the story God is telling.
With god's reality, he's the

only one who actually holds
reality. I can't perceive

reality. I don't know reality.
My brain isn't created to

understand truth. The only part
of me that understands truth is

the Spirit of God within me. So
I need the Holy Spirit who has

the right perspective, who knows
what is real, who knows all of

the things that I cannot
perceive and reinterprets this

to me. So for me, discipleship
is this changing of my story,

and as as Julia says, Our
restore. When God restores us,

He restores us. So, so that's
where the transformation

happens. Now, the interesting
thing is that we are created

limited. We are created to only
have our own perspective. I

don't know your perspective. I
can I learn in that that's a

developmental process. But at
the same time, between you and

me, do we know everything right?
Between the three of us here, do

we have the 360

Unknown: view? Oh, no, I think
we're pretty smart.

Jessie Cruickshank: The 360 view
of all things, those of my

husband say between me and my
brother,

Unknown: you know, I'm joking,
if anybody's wondering.

Jessie Cruickshank: And so we
have to have that witness. We

have to have God tell us the
truth, the Holy Spirit lead us

into truth. I have no other way
to get to that. And so since I

live out of these stories, these
stories I store in my organs, in

my bones, through
autobiographical memory, I need

them exposed, and I need the
Lord to tell me a new thing.

What's interesting is because
when we're children, is when

most of these narratives are
formed, and so we're we're not

only seeing it through a limited
human perspective, but for the

limited child's perspective and
and what does a child have the

ability to perceive and grasp
and understand and the

complexities and the nuances and
so, so we end up having these

aha moments that aren't true,
stored in our story, in our

autobiographical memory so
discipleship, becoming and

moving towards God's story,
moving in the kingdom, becoming

Christ like is that process of
God exposing those false

narratives and reinterpreting
things to us, rewriting that in

our autobiographical memory
system. And what's really

fascinating to me is you can be
a Christian. You can be a person

who has given their life to
Jesus and still living out of

these false narratives. You
know, I know many Christians who

don't believe that they're good
enough, you know, I say, Hey,

God loves you. You're his child.
And they're like, eh, I don't

know, but I don't, I don't
really feel it, right? It's not

something stored in their
autobiographical memory. You

don't you need an encounter with
the Father heart of God to like,

tell you you're not alone, and
envelop you and like, change

your story, change that identity
in the way you see yourself. I

know many Christians who think
that the height of Christianity

is being faithful in their
prayer closet. I'm gonna I'm

faithful in my quiet time, I'm
faithful in my prayer closet,

and people are a hindrance to me
living the life that I want to

live and being the person who I
want to be. And so we end up

with Christians who cancel each
other and Christians who cut

each other out of their life and
like, go, oh, well, you're a

toxic person. Let me cancel you.
Well, there's nothing in

Scripture that gives us
permission to do that, right?

And so we have this false
narrative of community that it

either helps us live our best
life, which is very

consumeristic, or is a hindrance
to us being living our best

life, which, again, is not, is
not Christ like there's no,

there's nothing Christ like in
that at all. So, so we have this

false narrative of isolation and
being the guru on the mountain

for instead of a community
that's bonded and knitted to one

another in all of its
imperfection, and that reveals

the false narrative there in
maturity, that that maturity is

something I will attain at some
point when I am whole, when I am

made. Perfect. And when we look
at Scripture, we see one of my

favorite verses is Hebrews 1014,
it says, For he is already made

perfect. Those who is made
making holy. So God has already

actually completed you with
himself, and he is making you

holy, which means that there is
a state of maturity for you,

spiritual maturity for you at
every moment of your day.

Maturity isn't a destination, it
is a state of living connected

to God while he's making you
holy and teaching you what he

wants in life. So there is a
state of spiritual maturity for

a seven year old, and there's
spiritual maturity for a 14 year

old and and we need to look at
that and and remove those

faults, the false narrative of
perfection, as if it's something

I'm trying to do, which just
creates anxiety and leads me

into works and religion and all
these things, takes me in a

direction I don't need to go.
And then I've, I've crushed

Christian friends who live in
the false narrative of

authority, where it's about
power and gaining power, or I

don't have enough power to do
the thing, so therefore I'm

going to abdicate. Right when we
grasp power or we abdicate,

those are both weird versions of
living in the false narrative of

our authority, when the truth
is, is that if God gave you that

space, then all of Heaven gives
you that authority and stands

behind you and backs you up. And
it's not about position, and

it's not about worldly power.
It's just about standing in

alignment with who God says you
are in the assignment he's given

you. And like, that's it. Like
you don't have to effort there.

You just have to stand. There is
no battle for you to fight. You

just stand and occupy the
territory God's already giving

you like that's what authority.
Authority is. There's no war.

There's no war, except for the
one in our own mind, in our own

heart, through our
autobiographical memory, that's

where, that's where the fight
is. So these false narratives

shape us So fundamentally, non
consciously, that that's where

we want to do the discipleship
work and expose the lies. And

most of the time, we don't know
what we're living in until it

comes out our mouth right. At
least for me, the Holy Spirit

has to show me the false
narratives that I'm living in.

And so then I say it out loud,
and I say it to Julia, and I say

it to you and to other friends,
and you're like, Okay, wait a

minute. Let me test that
narrative, because I don't find

that in Scripture. Let me test
that narrative. That's not what

Jesus said. That's not who God
is, that's not who you are,

right? So we can help each other
in that formational journey by

exposing the false narratives.
And you're like, oh, okay, it

becomes much easier to shift
tracks than just trying harder,

being more that I don't know
that just makes me exhausted and

anxious, and I don't I don't
think I'm into that anymore.

Julia: If you define a story,
it's just like a person who's in

a place, who has a plot. So it's
like a person who overcomes a

problem and encounters a
solution that's like a good

story arc, person A problem and
solution, but a narrative is a

purposeful retelling of a story.
A narrative has a narrator,

someone who's telling you what
they want you to see in the

story, and they're telling it
from a certain perspective, and

they want you to catch glimpses
of what's important, and we

believe the Holy Spirit is our
narrator, or that's the purpose

of discipleship, is to begin to
allow the Holy Spirit to become

the one who is showing and
shaping our story for us. And

anybody that studies, you know,
done any sort of biblical

training, you know, and you
understand that narratives are

such an important part of
Scripture, that it's not merely

the information that's being
conveyed, but it's the narrative

and the structures of which
those stories are being told

that is significant, and that's
what we're talking about in

terms of discipleship. We're
talking about how God is saying,

hey, I want you to look at this,
and I want you to thrive in the

narrative that I have for your
life.

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean,
Jacob, your pastor, right? So

I'm sure you've encountered
these things in all of your your

journeys. And I

Jacob: think what I'm hearing
you guys say, which affirms what

I've learned along the way, is
that it's like our own growth is

not about seizing control to
write our story, but allowing

God to redefine the narrative by
which we make meaning, and so I

think it's great. Well, thank
you guys. Hey, if you're

listening with us, we're so glad
you're here again. If you want

to dive deeper on these topics,
look for Jesse and Julia's book

becoming good news, reimagining
discipleship through identity

story and science. You'll learn
about how you're changed by God

and the way that sets you up to
be an epistle of good news

written to the people around
you. So thanks again for joining

us. Join us next time on the
ordinary discipleship podcast,

you.