Unknown: Hey, hey. Well, welcome
back. We are on the ordinary

discipleship Podcast. I'm Jacob.
I'm here with Jesse Cruikshank

and Julia schmaltz, and we have
been talking lately about topics

that come from Jesse and Julia's
book becoming good news,

reimagining discipleship through
identity story and science. And

you know, ladies, we've been
talking a lot about

autobiographical memory,
allowing God to write your

story, and really like you've
been saying, all of these kinds

of thoughts are causing us to
reimagine what we mean by

discipleship. And I think for so
many of us, when we think about

our life of faith and growing in
a life of faith. So much of it

comes back to theology or the
study of God, but so much of

what we've been talking about is
the study of our own lives and

the ways that we live. So help,
help. Let's, let's, like, cross

that chasm between studying God
and studying myself. What is our

understanding of God had to do
with our understanding of

ourselves? Yeah, it's, it's an
interesting thought, and I think

it's why part of the struggle
that I have, and that Julia has

about the discourse and the
conversation about identity in

our culture currently, is this
idea, idea that you can just

choose whatever that you can
choose, and you can write your

own identity and and that it's
just something that's

individually determined,
individually chosen. And one,

the science doesn't hold up with
that. And two, well, neither

does Scripture. So what the
science looks at is that our

identity is shaped from the very
beginning. Any person who has

encountered an infant
understands that that infant has

a personality. It was born with
a personality. It was born with

some identity already existing,
pre existing that wasn't chosen

by its parents, that wasn't
chosen by the child, that even

is it hasn't been shaped by by
the environment. And so the very

beginning our identity, our I
am, is I am here.

And they know an infant knows
it's here because it's looking

at the face of someone who's
looking at it. And so we know we

are here. We know we exist
because we're looking at

something that sees us and looks
back at us and and acknowledges

that we exist. And so you can
even they even have studies of

infants who weren't looked at
and they their brain becomes

malformed as well as their
identity. But even like

neurobiologically, it's called
failure to thrive syndrome, if

you are not looking at something
that is looking at you back and

acknowledging that you exist
foundationally, it creates

problems for us, not just our
soul, but also our biology. So

so we are created to know who we
are by looking at the face of

someone else, by looking at
another face. And this happens

not just with our caregivers,
but it's also true about God. We

are created to know who we are
by looking at and considering

God and who God says we are, not
just spiritually, but also

biologically. And so the
question then of, can you even

know yourself without asking

that which is outside of you,
which, as a child we call God,

without asking that which
outside of you say, Who do you

say I am?

Who do you? Who did you create
me to be like we have to connect

with that in order to have a
proper formation for ourselves.

So so the question of, How does
our identity and our journey

connect to who God is? They're
intimately and for other,

forever connected to each other.
You cannot progress on one of

those journeys without it taking
on the other so it is the

question of, What does it even
mean to be human? Actually, it's

a very it's a very big and
existential question. I think a

lot of times so much of what we
think about as discipleship is

like, less of me, more of God,
right? Or like minimizing the

self for the sake of
righteousness. And I wonder how,

like, like you were saying,
Jesse, it's almost like a right

foot, left foot, like, you
cannot progress in theology

without progressing in your
understanding of self and vice

versa. That's probably a part of
the reimagining of discipleship,

right? Is that we have to
reintroduce ourselves into the

process. It's not just about
learning more about God. It's

about as I learn more about God,
I learn more about myself, and

it becomes a cyclical pattern
like that, yes, the answer is

yes. But you know, like you
think about Scripture and.

Jeremiah says, before I was
born, you set me apart. You

know, Psalm 139

says that You knit me together
in my mother's womb. You know,

as the psalmist also talks about
how God numbers the hairs on our

head and our days, right? And
then you go back to Genesis,

chapter one, in the beginning,
God created the heavens and the

earth. You know, that we are
made in the image and likeness

of God. And so when, when you
look at the science of it, one

of the first things that happens
is that we are as as Jesse was

talking about, you know, we are
made to mirror. We're made to

look into the human face, you
know, of our parents, you know,

or hopefully it's our parents,
but of other humans, and, well,

the first thing that a baby does
is smile, and, you know, you

smile back. Five or six weeks
old, you know, like I was

talking to a group of young
elementary students, I asked

them, Do you guys have any
brothers or sisters? And you

know, handful of them raised
their hands, and I'm like, What

do you guys love doing at them?
Like, Oh, smiling at them

because they smile back and it
brings joy. So how do we learn

that? We learn that because
we're in the literally, our

facial expression is being
mirrored. One of my favorite

stories in scriptures is the
story of Moses, and that's

actually where we get this term
of identity. Identity is an I

am, and I think it's really
important that we think about

this. I am statements. You think
about it all the time, or you

don't think about it. I was with
somebody yesterday, and they

just said, I'm such a bother.
They just didn't even think

about I'm just I'm such a
bother. I'm such a bother. And

they're constantly saying that
over themselves. That's an

identity statement. I you know I
would say, and I know that's a

false identity statement. And
how do I know that? Because I

don't know of anybody that I've
ever heard say they've heard

from God that God has said to
them, Do you know that you are

such a bother? I love to create
bothers in the world. He just

doesn't say that to people.
People don't get you know, when

God speaks, he speaks
encouragement to people. He

says, I and when, when he Moses
asked him, Who, who is, are you

going to say that you are like,
you know, when I when the people

of Egypt, when the people of of
Israel ask, who is sending me?

God says to him, tell him, I am,
is sending you. I am, who I am

is sending you. It's an identity
statement. And so what God gives

us from the very beginning is
his identity. He gives us His I

am. He gives us His presence,
His with with Ness, with us. And

so when we talk about mirroring
and the science and all these

things that we're just
discovering now, we're talking

about those very things that
were foundational, that Moses,

who, by the way, is the author
of the first five books of the

Bible, is saying in his first
encounter with the living God,

that I that God tells him that
who he is. It's a found so

foundational to Scripture, and
it's so foundational for us to

know, because when Moses is
confronted by the burning bush,

and he meets the I am, who I am.
It changes his story. At that

point of his story, don't
forget, he is has murdered an

Egyptian. He's run into a
different land. He's living as

an exile. He's living hit out of
the narrative of what it means

to be a murderer who has been,
who has been excommunicated by

both his entire original family,
his, you know, the Hebrews, but

then also by the his adopted
family, the Egyptians. He has

nobody. Yes, he's found a wife
and children, but his entire

life has been completely
crumbled everything he thought

he was. He felt like it was a
lie. And he meets, he has an

encounter with the living God,
the God who speaks, and all of a

sudden, it changes the
trajectory of his life. And

Moses. And I love Moses story,
and will you get to that? But

eventually, he is the man. What
does it say? Actually, it says

that in that Exodus passage, in
three and four, it says that he

is afraid and he feels shame,
which is the various two things

that we see in Genesis chapter
three that Adam and Eve

experience. They experience fear
and they experience shame. Two

of the main things that keep us
from hearing the God that speaks

is when we experience fear, when
we're living in fear and when

we're living in shame. And we,
as we watch Moses story as it

goes on. You know, eventually,
in Exodus, I believe it's 33 it

talks about, or in numbers, it
talks about that he's actually

encountering the face of God.
And so Moses, the one who's

walking in fear and shame by
encountering the living God, by

walking and journeying with the
living God, becomes a friend of

God in that's what Scripture
says and and someone who sees

God face to face. And what's so
beautiful about that coming full

circle is is that God when it's
when scripture talks about God's

face shining, it's as if it's a
mother and child looking at one

another, staring into each
other's.

Eyes, and the child is
reflecting back. So when it says

God's face is shining upon
Moses, it means he's smiling

upon Moses. And Moses, does this
get to experience the joy, the

emotion of of experiencing what
it means to to live fully in the

story that God has for us? And I
think, like, Yeah, I think like,

so in that Moses story, it's
like it's God's face shining

upon Moses that changes Moses'
identity from being an exile to

being a returning son, right? Or
something like that. You were

saying. God never says you're a
bother and so. So it's like, my

if, if I have a conception of
God is God is someone who

criticizes me, then I'm going to
think I'm worthy of criticism,

and that's going to affect the
way that I live. But if I if I

have a belief about God, that
God is One Who affirms the

things that God has called me to
do, who changes my identity for

the better, who redeems my story
to be something new, that's

going to change the way that I
live. And so again, our opening

question like, how does an
understanding of God, what does

an understanding of God have to
do with understanding of

ourselves? It's like, well, the
story we tell about who God is

necessarily impacts the story we
tell about who we are. It's like

for me, growing up, I felt
called to ministry. When I was

five years old, I felt like I
wanted to be a missionary when I

grew up. I had heard like we had
these missionaries who came, and

they were from Indonesia, and
they climbed trees and tapped

rubber and like, and I was just
getting into climbing then and

and then they had Bible studies.
And I was like, wait, you can go

and climb trees and have
adventures for God like I am in

Sign me up. And unfortunately, I
was in a church that told me God

didn't call women.

And so they said, No, God isn't
like that. So God didn't do

that. You heard something else.
Now, fortunately, because God is

gracious, I had a better
relationship with God than I did

with the person who told me that
that wasn't God. And so God

didn't lose credibility in my
mind that that person did, but

it did affect the way that I
thought about God. So it kind of

goes subterranean. It becomes
one of those narratives in my

autobiographical memory, and I
come into my 20s and the Lord's

like, No, I want you to go into
full time ministry. And I'm

like,

I don't know God. Because I
think what, what the story

became, was God becomes a God
who sets you up for failure,

because God calls you to things
that then you can't do. God

calls you to God calls you to do
things that the world doesn't

support, like, like God is a God
who sets you up for failure. Was

what it the what it became for
me, and because I couldn't lean

into and wasn't encouraged by
that community to be who God

called me to be. It warped who I
thought God was. And part of my

discipleship and God restoring
these narratives was God saying,

No, I actually didn't make you
wrong. It wasn't it wasn't a

mistake that I made you a girl
and I called you into ministry.

I called you to be a missionary.
I called you to go in to new

places. I did that on purpose
and and I had to, like, play the

scene out in my head. I was
like, Okay, wait a minute. Do I

actually think God is a God who
is, you know, knits me in my

mother's womb, forms me and
writes every day of my life

before I've lived each one, and
then goes to Jesus and Holy

Spirit, and goes, oh yeah, we
might have whiffed it on that

one. We might have screwed up.
And, in fact, I kind of hope

that she works really hard the
rest of her life to overcome all

the inadequacies that we put in
her

like I don't, I don't think
that's the story God is telling

about who He created me to be,
or who he created you to be. I

don't think that narrative, that
story, plays out in heaven over

any person's life. I actually
think that each person is

perfectly created for the story
God wants to write through them

because he is good. And if you
unpack anybody who doesn't think

that that God is good, you can
usually peel that onion back to

a story where they thought that
there's something wrong with

them and their identity that
they can overcome. Therefore God

must be a bad God, and so our
understanding of ourself and our

understanding of God are are two
sides of the same coin in our

psyche, and so we need healing
in one in order to have healing

on the other. And you know what?
The more I believe God is good,

the more I believe he actually
likes me, the more I believe

that he didn't screw up with me,
the more I can lean into and

live out my true identity and
discover what that is. Because,

of course.

God is good, and of course, I am
worthy as His child and as an

inheritor in the kingdom,
because God's good. And so it

ends up being the circular
feedback loop, and it's either

moving in a positive direction
or it's moving in a negative

direction. So when we get to
restory, when God shows us who

he is, it changes who I think I
am. And when I see who God

created me to be, that I am
fearfully and wonderfully made,

and that is a good news story,
the more I actually can believe

he's good. So even I mean, we
could get, maybe in another

episode, we can get all the
biological science of how the I

Am and our God, how our
understanding of I am and our

understanding of God is
Bootstrap and spur each other

along in the human development
of the brain and the soul, but

but at the end of the day, I
need to know who God is, so that

I know who I am, and I need to
lean into and not disappear, but

know who I am in order to know
who got it. Yeah, I was, you

actually took the words right
out of my mouth there, Jesse,

because I had in my head, this
was a Holy Spirit moment, two

sides of the same coin. Because
when you said, Jacob, you know

this is if I know who God is,
that I can know who I am, but I

so often or not so often we do
see God through the lens of who

we believe we are and who we
believe God is. And so you just

said it there, Jesse, that it
becomes, it moves from our

semantic memory into our
autobiographical memory when we

can give God the way that we
feel. So in Moses's story, it's

so beautiful. In the New
Testament, it actually says that

Moses is a deliverer, which was
his true identity. He was a

deliverer. He was a deliverer.
And he, I think he even in his

soul, believed that when he is a
prince of Egypt and he's trying

to deliver a Hebrew slave from
the hand of another Egyptian.

And so he operates in his in in
his identity, but he's doing it

through through the lens of, I
have to do it myself. And it

took him all those years for God
to begin to reinterpret it that

you are a deliverer, but you're
doing it through my hand and not

yours. And that is so important,
because then he knows the God

who is the God who is the father
of Abraham, or, you know the God

of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He
knew him personally, to be able

to reinterpret his story for
him, which, which, I think, is

the final like the thing that
ties us all back together is

that the world cannot help you
know your identity. Only God

can, because He created it. And
when we're trying to find our

identity apart from that
relationship, we'll we'll never

get there. We are stuck in our
limited perspectives. We're

stuck in false narratives or or,
you know, so we, maybe we tap

into something like Moses, that
I'm a deliverer, but, but I'm in

the false narrative that I'm on
my own to do this, or I'm going

to do this my way, or I'm going
to pick up the pen and it dials

back, that this relationship
with God is a trust

relationship, that identity is
formed in and through

relationship, and that the
journey of faith is a journey of

trust in that relationship that
forms our identity. And so we,

you know, the more we can move
away from this idea, idea of

discipleship, being a list of
ideas I have to believe or

behaviors I walk out and we we
go back the deeper layer to Who

do you say I am, and who do I
say you are? And the relational

trust and fidelity there in that
dynamic, then that that is the

core of the walk of faith, and
that is the journey that

actually takes us into Christ
likeness, which is Christ in me,

through my life, through my
personality, through my

strengths and weaknesses,
shining out as the hope of

glory. So it's, it's just a
different journey than a

program. It's just, it's just
really different. Yeah, that's

great. That's great. So as we,
as we kind of conclude here,

like that question of, what does
our understanding of God have to

do with our understanding of
ourselves? What's beautiful? I

think about what you guys are
saying is that it's, it's really

participatory. So learning about
God isn't something I do apart

from God or apart from myself,
but I learn who God is, and in

learning who God is, I learn who
I am, and I'm a part of the

story as well. Cool. Well,
that's again, if you want to go

deeper on these topics, look out
for Jesse and Julia's book

becoming good news, reimagining
discipleship through identity

story and science. We'll be
talking about more topics from

the book on the podcast. So join
us here, or find that book, and

we'd love to go deeper with you
on these topics here on the

ordinary discipleship podcast,
you.