Jacob: Hello and welcome back to
the ordinary discipleship

podcast. We're glad you're here
with us. I'm Jacob. I'm here

with Jesse Cruikshank and Julia
schmaltz. We've been talking

lately about topics from their
book becoming good news,

reimagining discipleship through
identity story and science. And

we've covered lots of topics on
the podcast. And one of the

things that comes up again and
again is that many of us believe

false narratives or lies about
ourselves that can leave us

feeling inadequate or ill
equipped to be the people we're

called to be. And very often,
through Jesus, God is speaking

to us about who we truly are,
which is loved, empowered,

redeemed. And one thing that
came to mind for me was like,

are we just talking about the
power of positive thinking? Are

we just trying, like, are we
really just bad people calling

ourselves good and living from
that really, like, I think then

if we're gonna get meta about
the whole thing, it comes back

to like, what do we do with sin,
or what does it mean to be

broken, people or or is it that
we're not actually broken? Help

us put these pieces together.
What are you ladies thinking?

Julia: There's nothing like
quite going towards the big

questions Jacob and just
throwing the bombs into

everything we've been talking
about. So it's one of the things

we always admire about you. But
you know, it does come down to

it. And those are some,
definitely some things that

we've had to wrestle through is,
you know, in Genesis chapter

one, you know, when I read
through the creation account,

and when you read through the
creation account, what does it

say after, at the end of every
day? And it was good, and it was

good, and it was good. And then
God makes humans on day six, and

he says, and it was very good.
And so somewhere along the way,

you know, in church history, and
in the last you know,

specifically, a few 100 years,
we've taken on this theology of

original sin, and that we have
all fallen short of the god of

God's glory of God. So we have
to define sin. And sin is, a

word that's not even mentioned
in the narrative until Genesis

chapter four. And so even before
we get into into sin in Genesis,

chapter four. In Genesis chapter
three, we have what ends up

happening is the separation of
humankind from God. And in that

narrative, we see a couple of
things that come into some some

words that come up that actually
become really fundamental to the

story Adam and Eve, when they
encounter, you know, the

deceiver, you know they
encounter the deceiver, and they

take on fear and shame. It says,
When they believe the lie, when

they take the fruit, they they
take on fear and shame. And

what's really significant about
that is that fear and shame are

emotions, and we haven't talked
a lot about emotions on here, we

will, in a future podcast, talk
all about emotions. But again,

those are not right and wrong
behaviors. Those are, those are

feelings that they took on. Fear
is one of the core emotions that

we take. We're only born with
two fears of fear of falling and

a fear of loud, loud noises. All
other fear is learned. Shame is

a social emotion. Shame is how
we are affected by other people

around us, based upon either
what we've done or what has been

done to us. And so when we talk
about sin, sin is actually

hamartia. Martia is actually how
we are formed. That's in the

Greek the hamartia, it's how we
are formed. And ha means the

absence of form. So when you are
not formed, you are, you know,

when you are unformed, you have
you are in sin, you are

separate. It's, it's the absence
of form. One of the definitions

that that we put in in the book
becoming good news is that, and

it's, this is the definition in
the Greek that hamartia is

actually a fatal flaw that is
placed within a hero or heroine

to lead them into redemption.
And so we, you know, we were

taking a really close look at
sin. Now, sin is not idolatry.

Idolatry is one of the false
narratives. Idolatry is putting

our trust in the wrong god. So
when we are in separated from

God, when we believe, believe
any of the false narratives,

what's, what's the what I would
we would say is the wrong

belief. Is believing the truth
or believing the false versus

the truth of who God says that
he is. What is truth? Who is

Truth is really the question.
The truth is Jesus. Jesus is the

Way, the Truth in our in the
life. So what happened in

Genesis chapter three is we
began believing the lie, the

false, the deception, the
deceiver, instead of the truth

of who God is, of who God says
that we are, and who God says

that we are about other, that's
not positive thinking. That is

us believing in the false
narrative and what we what we're

seeing, and, you know, based on
biology, and then what is very

consistent with both our stories
and the stories that we hear of

others, is God changes our
belief system. He changes. He he

exchanges the. Idolatry for a
trust in Him. And so then we

begin believing the truth, and
then he can reinterpret all of

that for us, and how he does
that overcomes our fear. And

instead, it actually doesn't
overcome our fear, like gets rid

of fear. It part. You know the
the number one admonition in

Scripture is that do not be
afraid, but we are called to

fear God. So what we put our
fear in first is becomes the

object of our worship, that
becomes what is the center of

our life. And so God says, Fear
me, fear the LORD, fear the

Lord. Fear the Lord. Why?
Because when we fear the Lord,

we get all he. It becomes the
most powerful. He becomes our

God, the one that we put our
trust in, and then all other

things that are ordered, and he
becomes the one that has bridged

the gap in terms of our our sin
and separation to him. So then

we become back into connection
with God. We come back into what

we would call right
relationship, or that's what

even righteousness is, is coming
back in alignment with right

relationship with God. Well, I

Jacob: think that's good. A
couple of definitions you

brought out there, Julia, that
connect with things we've been

talking about along the way.
Like you've mentioned several

times on this podcast, that,
like Romans 12, one and two is

really true. You can be
transformed by the renewing of

your mind. And then, Jesse,
you've said before, like, we're

all being discipled by
something, and we've talked a

lot about how that discipleship
comes through their narration of

our stories. Developing our
stories into narratives is what

shapes us into who we are
becoming. But if that Narrator

becomes the deceiver, then we
start living out a story of sin,

and then and then God rewriting
our narrative, redeeming that

narrative is a process of
repentance that replaces the

deceiver story with the
creator's story, that we might

become who we were meant to be
all along. And so that, I think

that's where we get to in that
initial question of like, No,

we're not just talking about
call something bad good. That's

not what we're saying. We're
saying actually, replace

something bad with something
good and allow God to do the

replacing. Allow God to take
away your, your the story of the

deceiver, and replace it with
the story

Jessie Cruickshank: of the
Creator. Yeah. I mean when, when

we've reduced discipleship and
following Jesus to belief in an

idea of a creed stored in our
semantic memory, or just a

behavior that, by the way, is
probably not different than any

other religions behavior, with
the exception of a couple, which

maybe we'll get into repentance
and forgiveness and loving our

enemy in a future episode. But
like when we reduced this, this

Christian life, to semantic
agreement with a creed or a

behavior that is checking the
box, then we've missed the whole

like drama of the real story,
which is, it's about

relationship. It's about our
relationship with ourself. It's

about our relationship with God.
It's about the story that we're

living in. And so So sin becomes
these false narratives that

separate us from our own soul
and cause us to hate ourselves

and feel shame. Sin is the
separation from God, and now I

got to figure out how to do the
right belief and the right

behavior, apart from abiding and
connecting and and so we've

missed what we're actually
supposed to do here. But the

good news is that all we have to
do is make this this, you know,

put on these in this new lens of
narrative based, attachment

based, relationship based
discipleship, and go, Oh, I can

screw up, and I can run into the
arms of a good and loving God,

stay connected, and he makes me
okay. He makes me okay. He

teaches me how to live. He
restores my mind. He tells me a

new story that then I can be
successful living out of. And so

when I'm held by and connected
to and attached and attuned to a

good and loving God. Then he
restores me and restores me, and

now I can live that out. Now I
can have the right perspective

or that right behavior, or I can
do the things that I want to do

and not do the things I don't
want to do, because he's changed

who I am from the inside out,
and that becomes really easy.

See, the interesting thing about
brain scans is this, this is one

of the one thing that I love is
like, when you tell people not

to lie, and they're like, Okay.
And they did this. They did this

experiment with with and put
people in the brain scan, and

they're like, Okay, the goal for
this is not to lie. And then

they put them in a moral, you
know, kind of dilemma, where

they had to choose to lie or not
to lie. Then their brain was,

like, really active in their
prefrontal lobe and their

decision making. They're like,
Oh, do I lie? Do I not lie? What

am I supposed to do here? And so
they were highly activated in

the brain scan. But then they
had people who. In the

experiment who had an identity
of, I am not a liar, and their

brain did not show high
activation, because, you know

what, it wasn't a choice they
didn't have to wrestle through.

Do I not lie? Or do I lie?
Because it wasn't an action to

choose or not choose. We all
behave in alignment with our

identity, and their identity
was, I am not a liar. Therefore,

there was no there was no
choice, there was no big deal.

And so when God recreates us at
an identity level by Re

narrating our story to us, then
we'll have to worry about like

these things. You know, do I do?
What do I do? Do I do the right

thing? Why not do a right thing?
Do I eat of the Tree of the

Knowledge of Good and Evil? And
evil, and therefore I have to

choose between what is good and
what is evil, as if it's my

choice, like we get to go back
more fundamentally and say,

here's who I am, here's who God
says I am. And I don't have to

worry about sin. I don't have to
live a sin focused life. I don't

have to worry about being the
best or doing more. All I have

to do is come back to am I
living in alignment? Am I

listening to God? Does God tell
me who I am? Have I received the

name that God has given me? And
I'm living who I am, and that

that just changes the whole
conversation. And now I'm not.

I'm not stuck in the shallows of
behavior. I'm not stuck in the

shallows of creed. I can, I can
go back to the relational

identity that then changes
everything. And then, you know

what I mean? Maybe this is a
really heretical thing to say,

but then to me, sin isn't my
behavior. Sin is whether I'm

not. I'm listening to God, and
I'm in connection

Julia: with him well. And what
you just said is, if it's right

and wrong behavior, it's a
transactional relationship, and

that's really important for us
to see. Because if I do the

right thing, that I'm in right
standing with God, if I do the

wrong thing, I'm in wrong
standing with God. And that's

actually not even what we
believe when we believe that,

that all of us have sinned and
fallen short of the glory of

God. So that means that there
is, that there's all of us are

separated from God, you know,
however, it is a free gift of

grace that that Jesus Christ has
given us. And so if that's the

message of the gospel, that
there is nothing that we can do

for ourselves to be saved, then
that, then that's, I mean,

that's what we're saying.
There's nothing that we can do

to be saved. Jesus, Christ
alone, has made a way for us to

do that, and all of us will tell
you that it's based upon we had

an encounter with Jesus at some
point where he changed the way

that we thought about ourselves
and about this life. And that's

called us then to do, and then
even to desire to become, and we

all have to wrestle through
this, is this right or wrong

behavior? And what we're saying
is, is we've gotten to, I'll

say, the end of that rope, where
it's not about right and wrong

behavior, but it's actually
about this discipleship being

soul formation. And so the soul
is something that's talked about

all throughout Scripture. You
know, it's the word psyche in

the New Testament, which we get
the word psychology. What is the

soul? It's the mind, the will
and the emotions. And we talk a

lot about that, obviously, in
neuroscience and on this

podcast, but we talk a lot about
that in the church. What are our

thoughts? What are our choices?
How are we feeling? We don't

like the feeling conversation as
much, you know, because that

just feels too woo, woo. And I
think that's what we're saying,

is like, we need to actually get
back to it, not from a over

emotionalism type of
conversation, like, okay, let's

be, let's be led by our
feelings. But instead, let's

name those feelings. Let's use
them as the thermometer. Let's

really get a temperature for
what's happening right now and

going on in my life and saying,
Okay, I feel this way. I don't

know why. I don't even know if
it's right, wrong, good, bad, I

can't even say it. I just feel
it. So instead, God, what are

you bringing my attention to?
How are you what are you

inviting me into and making me
aware of in my emotional state

that I don't even have thoughts
yet, because we're formed first

in our emotions before we even
have thoughts. That's how we're

formed biologically, and I think
that's how we're formed

spiritually, too. We feel things
before we even have thoughts,

and the ability to have meaning
for them. And so that's actually

how God's redeeming us. And so
even before we believe God is

good, in our autobiographical
memory. We have it in our

semantic memory. Then he shows
us that he's good, and now that

restores us, and we can actually
believe that God is good. And

it's this constant back and
forth. It's not okay. Let me

just check these things off a
box. I really wish the 10

Commandments were like, God's
like, here's your discipleship.

Boom, you've checked the list
now you're good to go. I've

looked all throughout Scripture.
I've been doing this for a lot

of years, many decades, as I
know the two of you are like,

and our listeners have and there
ain't that checklist, and it's

just not that easy. That means
it's all about relationship. And

what's interesting too, is we,
when we were looking at even the

word disciple, just. Jesse's
like, Do you realize that

discipleship isn't even past? Is
it past the Gospels or acts?

Jessie Cruickshank: Just past
the beginning of Acts?

Julia: Past the beginning of
Acts, the word disciple is not

in the New Testament. Isn't that
interesting? What? What the way

that the early church was
referred they referred to each

other, and they were referred to
as saints and witnesses. And so

that's actually what we're
talking about, about becoming

good news, is that that we're
actually that that God is good,

and that we are then mirroring,
we are reflecting that back to

the world that he is reshaping
us into, not because we're good,

it's that we get to be a
reflection to the world, a a of

his goodness. It's not our
goodness, it's his goodness, and

that we get to show His goodness
to the world. That's what the

gospel and good news is, that it
is, you know what? When Jesus

came to earth, we're just we're
recording this right after

Christmas, right after the new
year, and it says, today in the

city of David, a Savior has been
born. And it says that it will

be good news of great joy for
all people. That's what the

gospel is. It's good news of
great joy. We've talked a lot

about mirroring and what that
looks like for all people.

That's what the message should
be. And so for us, it's super

simple, that the goodness of God
means that we should have joy,

and that's the greatest
indication of us believing that

what God says is true. Do I have
joy in who I am and who God is,

and in my witness to others, and
if I don't, okay, God, what are

you making me aware of? What am
I believing about your you about

myself and about others? That's
not true.

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, it's
like joy is a much better marker

than perfection, right? Because
if I if my goal, if God's goal

for me was to be sinless, then
he shouldn't have made me as a

human with inherent flaws and
limitations. But he did, and he

said it was very good. So his
goal must be different than than

perfection, because he actually
provides that perfection is

completeness and wholeness, and
so we can't have that apart from

him. So he brings himself to it,
says it's great, says it's

wonderful, says it's everything
it needs to be, and it wasn't

because I had to be more. And so
that's what I love about this

conversation, is that, I mean,
if you've ever like, like, have

you ever done a thing where you
were screwing it up and yet

laughing the whole time. I mean,
my husband and I like work on

these projects. And you know,
whether it's construction in our

basement or a new Lego set, like
we're not getting it perfect,

we're screwing up, we're finding
stuff, and yet, there's laughter

and there's joy in that. And how
can, how can you experience that

and go, Oh, wow, that wasn't,
that was good, right? That was,

that was awesome. So it's not
perfection that God is looking

for. He didn't, he didn't create
us with that goal in mind. What

he did create us for was being
connected to him, hanging out

with him, being complete in Him.
Our weakness makes his strength

perfect. His strength is made
perfect in our weakness, he

doesn't require anything of us
that he didn't created us create

us to be able to fulfill. So,
yeah, babies are messy. Kids are

messy. Kids are real messy. Kids
fight. Kids get it wrong, and

yet, God doesn't ask for more of
us than that. He just wants us

to be that way with him so that
he can be the good parent and

take care of all the things like
that's what mercy we're not

supposed to get to a place where
we don't need mercy or Grace

anymore.

Jacob: So I'm hearing you guys
say is like we don't need to

ignore our negative emotions or
hide our iniquity. Rather, we

can allow those things to be an
invitation to reconnect with the

Spirit of God, that God's Spirit
might redeem those things for a

better story in our lives. And
that's the opportunity

Unknown: of this type. Well
said, Jacob, that's why you're

here.

Jacob: Jacob, awesome. Well,
thank you guys again. If you

want to go deeper on these
topics, look out for Jesse and

Julia's book becoming good news,
reimagining discipleship through

identity story and science and
for sure, keep continue to join

us on the ordinary discipleship
podcast. We'll see you next time

you.