Jacob: Hello folks, welcome back
to the ordinary discipleship

podcast. We're so glad you are
with us. I'm Jacob. I'm here

with Jesse Cruikshank and Julia
schmaltz, and lately, on the

podcast, we've been diving into
topics inspired by their book

becoming good news, reimagining
discipleship through identity

story and science. And so if
you're with us, we know that you

are excited to listen in to our
conversation about discipleship

and how narrative is at the
center. So today, we want to

talk about the power of naming.
And this is the sort of thing

like you mean, like naming your
kids? Well, yeah, sort of, but

my favorite way to introduce
this topic I got from a friend,

and he talks about how, like in
the garden, God created

everything, and then when God
created humanity, the first job

that humans were given was to
name everything. And so it's

like this is our first
invitation into co creation with

God. Is naming things that God
makes them. We name them, and

with that we are, we are
partnered with God. So hope that

didn't steal either of your
thunder. But tell me about how

those concepts of naming,
calling a thing, what it is,

ascribing identity and value to
things. Talk to me about how

that impacts narrative based
discipleship.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, I
think the first thing just to

note about naming and why it's
so amazing and and like you

said, it's a co creation. Thing
is that we're the only species

that names. So even when you can
teach sign language to different

chimpanzees and apes and and
everything, they don't name

things, we name things and then
teach them the name. But they

they have not demonstrated an
act of naming. Even elephants

like they have distinct calls
and distinct voices, and

elephants can look in the mirror
and recognize its own self. So

it has like even elephants have
an understanding of of self they

don't name and and so it's
something distinct about what

humans do, which we think of as
being part of our Imago day,

that co creation with God and
that so. So just know, like of

all created things, humans are
the only ones that name. So it's

inherently powerful and amazing.

Jacob: Yeah, so naming things is
discharging God given authority.

It's something uniquely human.
Julia, how does that impact the

way we think about discipleship
and narrative in our lives?

Well, naming

Julia: precedes meaning as well.
And so in order to understand

something, in order to have to
give meaning to something, we

have to be able to name it.
That's why it's so powerful when

we can name, you know, we name
what. We name what's important

to us, right? We've named
animals we name, you know, we

come up with naming mechanisms
so you can understand what I'm

talking about, and I can
understand what you're talking

about. But our parents care so
much about naming that they name

us when we're born, and they
they give us meaning based upon

the name, you know. And
sometimes there's more thought

that goes into that than than
others you know. Sometimes they

just think it's a beautiful
name. Other times, we're named

after people that are
significant in their lives. So

there's there's meaning that
comes with naming when it comes

to that. But we also believe
that there's power in being

named by God. And one of the
things that you see throughout

scripture is God giving names to
people. In Abraham, he changed

the name to Abraham, and that H
that is put into the middle is

the is the HA. I'm awful at
Hebrew. I can't do it my my

Jewish friends make fun of me,
so I'm not going to even try.

But what that that letter in the
Hebrew correlates to is

literally the Yahweh. It's the
breath of God that's poured into

Abraham's name. Same thing when
Sarai becomes Sarah. It is the

breath of God that is poured
into their name. So what happens

significantly is the breath of
God is being spoken and being

breathed into the life is being
breathed into Abraham and Sarah

at that moment. And we see this
name change that happens

throughout in different times.
In Scripture, Jacob becomes

Israel. And so when we talk
about, you know, being named,

and how God gave us that
specific naming as as a as a

part of our Imago day. We've
talked in a previous episode

about how God is, therefore I
am, and how in Exodus, chapter

three, God said to Moses, you
know, I am who I am. So he God

says, this is I Am, the one that
exists. And he's giving us his

existence, his withness, with
us. So as the imago day being

made in the image and likeness
of God. When God gives us the

ability to name, he is actually
giving us. We are mirroring back

to him this meaning that he
gives us. It's something that he

only gives to humans. And so he
gives us names. He gives us

identity. Identity. I am
statements so that we can have

identity too. And so that's why
naming is so important in our

narrative, is that. And this is
why where we came to when we

started thinking about writing
the book, identity was not a

core piece of the book. It was
kind of sitting on the side. And

as we began really exploring it,
we realize no identity is

absolutely foundational, not
just foundational to our book.

It's foundational to who we are
as humans, who we believe we

are, who we believe that God has
created us to be. Is not just a

I have identity in Christ and I
am one, one son or daughter of

the king, Most High, it's no we
believe all of Scripture is

true. Psalm 139, Jeremiah, one,
all of those come into existence

and are coming, are happy. You
know, that's, that's who I these

I am. Statements are incredible,
and so identity. Let me give you

a definition of what we call
true identity. We work, I work

for an organization called
Identity exchange. We work

alongside them, and they have a
definition of identity that true

identity is the truest thing
about who you are. It is your I

Am deep within, and it has to be
received. It has to be received

by love, by by the one true God
by our Yahweh, that is when. So

when we're talking about
identity, when we're talking

about naming, we're saying that
God gives each and every

individual a unique name that's
not necessarily the same name

that our parents give us.
Sometimes it is, but it is an

invitation to receive God. And
so I would encourage anybody

listening to this podcast to
stop and say, God, who do you

say that I am? And who do you?
Who do you call me? Because

this, when we talk about
identity, we're talking about

how God gives us a name because
he wants to give our life

meaning. And so that for us is
the correlation between naming

and identity and receiving and
mirroring, and all the science

that comes along with that, the
things that, quite frankly, I

don't completely understand,
Jesse does, thank God, but I've

received in such a way, and it
is completely transformed who I

am and who I believe myself to
be, and who I believe God is,

because he is. It's giving me a
greater understanding of who I

am, and the more I understand
who I am, it's giving me a

greater understanding of who I
believe God is.

Jessie Cruickshank: Is this kind
of taps into my theology of

tattoos, just to like, I mean,
so I have a couple tattoos, but,

like, when I was thinking about,
what am I? What do I want to get

written on my body, permanently,
like, like, like, what? What do

I want that to be? I went to the
Scriptures in the in Revelation,

where it talks about how Jesus
writes a name on us. He has our

name written on his hand. He has
things written on himself,

right? So Jesus has tats and
they are his name, right?

Faithful and True is written on
him. So, you know, that's not an

embroidered blanket. Guys like
it says it's written on him. And

so there's, there's this, this
understanding that they would

have had in the first century
church, that that that's, that's

a literal in engraving tattoo.
And so I sat with the Lord, and

I'm, like, Lord, like, Who do
you say I am? What is, what are

the names that you have written
on me in the spiritual because I

want to bring my, you know,
lived experience right here,

into alignment with that and,
and so I have, at this point, I

have a couple tattoos, and they
are things that God has called

me. So they're, they're not my
name that. And I have, like, I

have five names, guys so Jessica
arena, Lee shank, crook shank,

because my mom gave us all a
number of names. So, so there's

none of those, but there are
names that God Himself has given

me, because that's who God says
I am, and I and I put them on

myself as a physical reminder,
to remind myself who God says I

am in the our I am, statements,
the things that come out of our

mouth that I am this or I am
that, right, it should we?

Should? We need to pay attention
to them, because that's part of

that co creation act. That's
part of that x, you know,

expression of authority. And
when those I am, statements that

come out are not in alignment
with who God says we are. They

are in alignment with the
deceiver. They are alignment

with lies. They are in alignment
with somebody, something that

someone said over you, that that
wasn't, that wasn't the Word of

God for you, then that's where
we need repentance. We need to

repent of the I Am, statements
that take us further away and

then and express an authority
and create a direction that is

different than what God would
say over you and God's story

that he's writing for you. So
our, our identity, this, this

true identity, comes out of our
mouth, and we need to express

that authority, that the the
alignment of that story. So that

that power that we have we we
really underestimate it. How you

name somebody else, right? You
are? You are exerting. You are

either blessing or cursing
somebody in the way that you

speak over them and tell them
who they are. So it's scripture

takes us really, really
seriously. Biology takes this

really, really seriously. So we
need to take this really

seriously. So there's a whole
phase of human development,

young school age, children from
the age of two or three until

about six or seven, where their
identity formation is I am, who

others tell me I am, and how
they are named that way by those

around them. Becomes an
internalized identity that they

that they receive, whether it's
a good name or a bad name, like

they receive that. And most of
our foundational identity lies

can really be traced back to
that place of where we were

named poorly and we received it,
or where we were named well and

maybe we didn't receive it,
maybe, you know, maybe we had a

hard time like accepting the
gift of that name. So scripture

takes naming really, really
seriously.

Jacob: Well, I think, I think
what you're saying also is like,

yeah, Scripture takes naming
seriously. Also, there's a

cognitive, neuroscientific
connection, and that's like,

actually one of the things I
reference the most about naming

is something I heard you Jesse
say before we were even friends,

was about how, like, a thing
doesn't exist until it's named.

And so, like, once we give a
like, I could tell you there's

something on my desk and it's
ground is round and it's green,

and you would have no idea what
it is, but if I tell you, it's

this little fidget magnet ball,
now, all of a sudden, it exists

in your brain, right? And so,
so, so once I've named it, it

exists in your brain, and that
connects to what you were just

saying about for better or
worse, humans are co creators

with God. So the things we say,
the things we name, matter, and

we call things into reality by
naming them. We do an exercise

in some curriculum I use where
people evaluate the names

they've been given. So first
they look up the names their

parents gave them, and then
there's one that's like names

other people have given you. And
I have a friend who runs a

parachurch ministry, and he
said, like, some of his college

age leaders one time gave him
like, he found out after the

fact that they had started
calling him I Don't Care Bear,

because he he was like, he's a
highly apostolic, strategic

leader, and they perceived that
he was only task focused. And so

they they started calling him I
Don't Care Bear. And when he

found out, he was, like, a
little disappointed, right? And

so we were doing this naming
exercise, and it was like, put

down some names that other
people have given you, and they

could be good or bad. And he's
like, What do you mean bad

names? And I was like, Well, you
know your college volunteers

card, I don't care bear. Oh,
yeah, exactly. And that's where

I think what we're saying is,
like, in our own formation, we

have to be aware of the place
where names like that have

attached themselves to us, and
have we taken them on as an

identity, and if we have, what
would it look like to allow God

to redeem us by renaming us so
that that no longer is Our

identity and a different
identity is called into

existence. And that's where
Jesse or Julia was saying

earlier, like, if, if you need
to be named by God, you can, you

know, just ask the Lord. Lord,
who do you say that I am? And I

think we can go to like, the
things we know that God calls

everybody, but there are
specific things that God says

about each of us, that we can
allow ourselves to adopt those

identities and allow them to be
called into existence. Are there

other ways you guys would
recommend people allowing

themselves to be named by God or
receiving the identities that

they've been given?

Julia: Well, I think we have to
first start with the fact that

we believe God speaks and
Genesis one he God. God created

by saying, And God said, Let
there be light. And God said,

And God said, And God said, so
you mentioned this, but God

creates by speaking things into
existence. So I just, I want to

remind us God creates by
speaking things into existence.

And you guys have both said it,
but we create by speaking things

into existence. And so in our in
our as we're growing up, we can

take on, I define true identity,
a false identity is taking on

those, those belief systems that
are not true. So if the truest

thing, if a true identity, is
truly who I am, a false

identity, is not being who I
believe, who I am. And so think

of this, when you're a little
kid, you know you you're running

around like I had a first grade
teacher who she was a grump and

she was just kind of scowl. All
the time, and I remember being

put in the not smart reading
group and thinking and the I

still remember that thought to
this day, I'm stupid because I

wasn't put in that group. Did
she tell me that? No, actually,

she may have said that once, I
may have taken that. I don't, I

don't really recall. I have to
go back to there. But she just,

you know, people say thing, we
say things all the time that we

don't even think about. You are
so stupid. You're such a you

know, you're so annoying. Like,
we just say those things, and we

say them to our children, and as
kids, we say them to each other,

and it's just a part of our
normal vocabulary. Well, as as

you know, Jesse talks about in
our development and the

psychology of our development
that I am, who others tell me I

am, some of those stick, and
some of those don't. And some of

those stick when, when there's
not the reconciliation. You

know, some people will say
things to us and they'll

immediately come up and
apologize. You know, I'm sorry.

I didn't mean that. Or, you
know, there's a lot in the

psychology of that, but if we
begin to attach that, that idea,

I began believing that I was
stupid, that in when I was sixth

grade and I was a straight A
student growing up, I worked

really, I worked hard at my
grades, but I was a good

student. But in the back of my
mind, there was this belief

system that I am stupid. And you
know where it came out when I

was trying to write a book and I
couldn't I was stuck, and this

is 40 years after the fact,
going okay like this, this

perpetual lie in the back of my
brain that I'm believing that I

am stupid and that I'm a
failure. And so what? When we

talk about the psychology of
that and the naming of that and

all of those things, what, it's
very simple. There's a process

that we teach at an identity
exchange. We call it truth tell

mind change, form change. It's
called the check in process. And

what we do is we confess. That's
truth telling the mind change is

we receive from God what He
wants us to know about it, and

then we are going to be able to
live out of that new form

change, of what, of what he says
that we are. That's repentance.

It's confession, repentance and
transformation that's going to

take place. And so if you have
that feeling, or if you have a

feeling that feels inconsistent
with the situation that you're

in, because I can tell you that
I'm not sitting around all the

time going, I'm stupid. I'm
stupid. Like, it's not

necessarily all that all the
time that it was going on in my

head, but I was hitting up
against these blocks and going,

why can't I get through these
blocks? And so I asked the Lord,

why do I feel that way? It
usually comes out when you're

talking to somebody and like, I
just feel so stupid. You know?

It's like, Oh, where did I begin
believing that I was stupid?

God, when was the first time
that I believe that I was

stupid? And the Lord's like, oh,
when you were in first grade,

you were in that reading group,
and I had to walk through

forgiving my first grade teacher
for saying what she said,

Because I took on that belief
system. Did she mean to do it?

No. Was she really a grumpy old
lady? I don't think so. That's

just how I perceived her when I
was six years old and that. And

so then I bring that forward to
today, and I say, Okay, God, I

don't believe I'm stupid. You're
not telling me I'm stupid, by

the way, God doesn't say those
things. So we know that they're

not from God. God doesn't say
those things at all. And so,

God, who do you say that I am?
He says you're my truth teller

to the nations. You need to take
this message and Okay, God, what

do you want me to know about
that? That's an identity. And

so, God, how do you want me and
what do you want? What do you

want me to know? What do you
want me to do with that, with

that name that you have given
me, and that's a that's a name

and identity God gave me five
years ago, when I was before I

was writing this book, and it's
a name that he gave me back just

a couple of weeks ago, and he
reminded me, it's because I want

this message. I want my message
of truth to be out to the

nations and so God, it's, it's a
continual knowing, it's a deeper

understanding. It's a it's a
continual just getting to see

myself through God's eyes.
That's not a platform I stand

on, or that's not it's simply
Okay, God, what do you want me

to do? What do you want me to
know? What do you want me to do

you want me to do with this over
and over again, of him, and

that's where repentance, him
giving me his thoughts about who

I am, him giving me his ways of
thinking about about this

message that he's placed in our
hearts.

Jacob: That's great. And I think
that takes us to, like, a solid

takeaway, which is, I think you
were bookmarking for us, Julia,

that like we believe God speaks.
And I think you know sometimes

when the world and everyone
around us is trying to name us

falsely, it can feel like there
are flaming arrows from every

side, and the word of grace that
we're reminding people of here

in this conversation is like
God's voice is in there too. You

don't only have to believe the
things that have been said about

you by the people around you.
God is telling you who you are,

and that is the true identity
that that can hold. So

hopefully, if you're listening
to us, you've been encouraged

again. I'll remind. You. If you
want to go deeper on these

topics, make sure you're looking
for Jesse and Julia's book

becoming good news, reimagining
discipleship through identity

story and science. We'll
continue to dive into topics

from the book here on the
ordinary discipleship podcast.

Thanks for joining us. You.