Jessie Cruickshank: Welcome to
the Ordinary Discipleship

Podcast. I'm Jesse Cruickshank,
and I am here today with my dear

friend Peyton Jones. Peyton has
been in the missional church

planting world, like globally,
for a long time. For a long

time, he might have co-led with
dinosaurs, but it just means

he's really experienced, and he
has so much wisdom. And Peyton,

I'm so glad to have you on the
podcast today. You're, you're

one of my favorite people to sit
and talk about church planting

with, because what I, what I
love about you is you know that

you know that you know that
ordinary people are God's plan,

a for this whole thing. It's not
about the charismatic person who

can draw a crowd, although we
love those people, probably

because we're not those people.
We love those people, but like

the beauty of God operating and
leading and connecting to people

through the ordinary everyday
believer of Jesus, so you've

written a lot of books,
Plantology, and then you have a

new one that has come out,
Discipleology, Psychology,

Disciplineology. No, that's not
it.

Peyton Jones: Yeah, too many L's
in there. Yeah, so it's

Discipology, the art and science
of, and I want to say, planting

churches as a subtitle,
plantology, but making

disciples, yeah, disciples, and
by the way, it's so good to be

here, thanks so much for having
me on, and I agree, I, you know,

we're like raving fans at New
Breed Training, Brooks Hammond,

who, you know, he was one of the
guys that built Exponential, but

when we had you on to our
podcast, and you know, we got

sent the books. Brooks, who
reads, he is the most prolific

reader I know. You know, we did
something recently, he's on the

plane. I'm like, what are you
reading? He's like, I'm reading

Kafka. Who reads Kafka, right?
Like, it's like, and he's just..

I said, "Are you reading that
for some, like, a class? No, I'm

just reading. I figure I should
know what he says. Dude is a

brainiac and a prolific reader,
but he read your last book, and

I read it as well, and we both
came away saying there are kind

of like two great discipleship
books out there, Ralph Moore,

making disciples, real plain,

Jessie Cruickshank: yeah.

Peyton Jones: And your book,
and, and so we're huge fans, and

I, you were quoted in this book,
by the way.

Jessie Cruickshank: I know, I
saw that, like, well, I mean,

you just, I'm just always
honored at the company that

decides to keep me, you know.
I'll be, I'll be friends with

everybody, but who's friends
back

Peyton Jones: we're kind of
afraid of you a little bit,

because we know that you
understand neuroscience and can

play tricks on us, and we'll
never know about it. So we're

little in awe of you.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, a
little fear of the jest is a

healthy thing, that's what I
tell my husband anyway.

Peyton Jones: It keeps us all in
line,

Jessie Cruickshank: but I
greatly enjoyed your book. I

was, I was happy to, honored to
endorse it. What I love about

it, and would love to hear you
share about it, is you offer a

simple framework. I'm more
narrative based, you're more

structure based. We need all of
those things, but you offer a

simple framework that Jesus used
for how to think about

discipleship, disciple making.
Share that with our audience

here.

Peyton Jones: Yeah, yeah,
thanks. It goes to the heart of

it. And you know, I mean, I went
and spoke at a conference

recently in the.. I don't know
if you know Sean Finner, who

took over for Larry Wakameyer at
his at his River Church, but he,

he said, you know, Peyton's
gonna come speak today. I don't

know what he's going to talk
about. He's probably going to

talk about three circles at some
point, and because Plantology

had three circles, this one also
has three. That's just

coincidence, not because I have
a thing for circles, but you see

the

Jessie Cruickshank: Venn diagram
type, like you just love

Peyton Jones: it. I do. I did
take logic and critical

thinking, and it did deeply
affect me, and also tell me what

I need more of, because I think
in cartoons normally, but that's

why this book has 200 pictures,
charts, and diagrams, but the

three circles are actually time
teaching tactics, which are the

three rhythms that Jesus used in
his disciple making, and if I

can back up for a second, and
kind of give the origin story,

like a Marvel origin story, of
how this book came to be. When I

was working on church
plantology, I discovered that

Paul made a lot of mistakes, and
he switches up his missional

praxis as he goes. So, on his
first missionary journey, he

doesn't take anyone with him,
right? It's just him and

Barnabas and John Mark, and he
ditches before they even get to

Galatia. So, which I got, so
it's the two of it's

Jessie Cruickshank: about that's
about even calling and who your

audience is, and not following
somebody else's calling, like

you got to know what you're,
what you're supposed to be

doing.

Peyton Jones: Yeah, and

Jessie Cruickshank: so, so.
Paul's always changing things

up,

Peyton Jones: absolutely, and
you know, we put him in this,

you know, kind of like Parthenon
of, you know, oh, you know,

he's, he's under, he, everything
he did was perfect, I use it

prescriptively, no, Luke tells
you, like the Gospels, like he

doesn't come out and say this is
where he screwed up, but if you

read between the lines, he
switches up after his first

mission mission journey, because
he's like, I don't want to

repeat the Galatian heresy. So,
what he does, and I argued this

in Plantology, but I really
unpack it in this book, is he

goes back and learns from Jesus
what Jesus did to make

disciples, because that was what
was lacking in Galatia, those

three rhythms, time teaching
tactics. Paul was all about the

tactics. He was going three to
four months in each of those

church playing, you know,
Iconium, Lister Derby, and he's

tearing it up, and he's thinking
faster is better, just like the

American church, classic
Pharisee,

Jessie Cruickshank: right,
classic Pharisee framework

paradigm,

Peyton Jones: yeah, yeah,
faster, more is better, right?

1999 I leave this country,
bigger is better, I come back

faster is better. So it's almost
like that, that show in Living

Color, back in like the 90s,
that was a great Jim Curry, got

his start, it was a great show,
and they had the Jamaican guys

are like, I know a guy of three
jobs, man, and they're like, oh,

that's not that I know a guy,
yeah, 10 jobs, man, and, and, in

it, what we do in church
planning circles, we're like, oh

yeah, this guy, you know, he
planned 50,000 churches in two

years, and you're like, how's
that even possible, right, but

we, you know, so he has a bunch
of networks and a bunch of

people, okay, so now, but, but
we're in all of this because

faster is better in the American
mindset, our new value is

faster. We're always
quantitative, and Paul goes back

and goes, 'Wait a second, Jesus
seemed more qualitative. So,

when you go back to what Jesus
did in his ministry, and this

would start up my journey, so
I'm like, 'If Paul had to go

back and learn what Jesus said,
surely Peyton Jones needs to go

back. Surely Peyton Jones is
making mistakes left, left,

right, and center. So, what I
learned was when I went back and

studied Jesus, I'm like, okay,
multiplication is the book of

Acts, mobilization is the
gospel, and what I love about

what Ralph Moore says in his
book is he says if you plant

churches, disciple making does
not necessarily happen, but if

you make disciples, church
planning always happens. So, in

the way I paraphrase that, is
mobilization leads to

multiplication. So, mobilization
is horse, multiplication is

cart. So, we've been focusing
for the last 20 years in the

multiplication movement on the
wrong thing, we're focused on

the effect, not the cause.

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, one
of my greatest convictions, I

think, the last few years, as to
parallel what your journey is,

is just how inefficient the
kingdom is, like, yes, and so

with your three, with your three
circles, the the time I think is

one of the things that sets this
work apart. I think you know

other people write books about
discipleship, and and they talk

about the teaching, they talk
about tactics, and you can find

probably 100 of those on Amazon
right now, if not more, but your

layering in of the time, and
that rhythm that slows it down,

that changes the intentionality,
not on the transfer of

information, but on the
formation

Peyton Jones: of the soul,
right? Because the kingdom is

inefficient, it's.. and that's
just so. I don't know,

paradoxical, counter-cultural,
you know, it's the opposite of

the way that I know I have been
trained to think about church

planting, and yet, and yet, the
Lord, and yet the Holy Spirit

seems really faithful to taking
the long, slow route. Yeah, I

mean, it's funny. I think you
nailed it. The it does set the

book apart, and it is so
counterintuitive to me

personally to think, oh, we're
not going to go fast. I'm a

cereal planter. I mean, I'm
planting now, and saying, like,

I don't always talk about what
I'm doing, but, like, I plant.

I'm always involved in church
plants on the ground, and for

me, I always want to lay the
foundation, raise up leaders,

and blow the heck out of Dodge.
I want to get in and out as fast

I can, like it's a hamburger
sand, but the reality is that

Jesus, He, He's the Son of God,
right? He has three years, He

knows He has three years, He
slows down the very first year,

and this is the amazing thing,
Jess, like in those three years

he spends time in the first
year, and I know when you say

that people are thinking, how,
give me just a second, I explain

it, but just bear with me, hear
the overview. To time teaching

tactics, those were the focuses
of year one, two, and three. And

so, as an author, I'm, I'm not
happy to tell you, I don't think

you should believe me on
anything I say. I'm going to

show you. So, we took everything
that Jesus did, I studied

chronologically what Jesus did,
went back through what he do,

what was the first thing he did
after his baptism, temptation?

First thing he did was have
dinner with John and Andrew. He

just slows down, has dinner, and
that whole year is like that.

And the other gospel writers,
this is the irony: they all

start at year two, when Jesus
says, 'Right, the time has come,

let's go. I have to go preach,
and they all pick up where the

action is. Only John focuses in
on that one year, where it's

conversations with Nicodemus,
the woman at the well, the

wedding, you know, all the
wedding in Cana at Galilee, the

Jessie Cruickshank: raising the
dead of the orphan's widow,

like, like, just, yeah, being in
the people,

Peyton Jones: that's it. So his
first year we put it on a

charter, and you see elements of
teaching and tactics, but it's

really just time is the
predominant thing he does. So,

for example, like they go to the
Passover, that took weeks out of

their schedule, they go to a
festival again, weeks out of

their schedule, it was a long
walk to Jerusalem and back. Then

they stopped back through
Samaria, have it's all

conversations and dinners and
walking. Eckhart Schnabel, the

New Testament theologian, says
that in that first year they

would have spent in between
three to four months walking

during waking hours, because
also Jesus liked this, what he

does, he settles down in
Capernaum with the six, he only

has six disciples that first
year, he moved to Capernaum, he

just lives life, he doesn't go
on tour, he goes to the local

synagogues, and they accompany
him, he refuses to do any

miracles, except for two, one
wedding of Cana, where he says

to his mom, woman, and that's
that's boundary setting, that's

not mom, that's woman, you know,
like you can't pull the mom card

here and get me to do stuff, and
but he does it, and yet, because

what I love in the Gospel of
John is where she goes, just do

whatever he says, you know, like
Jewish mother, she knows he's

gonna listen, you know, and, and
that, by the way, is one of the

reasons. Do you know this is an
eyewitness account? If you were

making up a gospel or Jesus or
religion, you wouldn't have him

just listen to his mom anyways,
right? Like, this really

happened, and, and so what
happened is, at the end of it,

he also reluctantly does America
when he's coming back, and he,

he stops through Cana, and
someone from another town stops

and says, 'Hey, my master
servant, you know, he's, he's

dying, and, or I think it was
the sun, actually, and Jesus

will not go to the city, because
he will not break off. He is

intent on building relationship
with those 12, so he won't do

it. So that's where he does it
by proxy from a distance. He

heals him. That's it. Now, when
he told his mom, 'It's not my

time, year two kicks off with
Jesus. You know, they can't find

him after miraculous catch of
fish. He says, 'Follow me, and

I'll make you now. This is him
leaving Capernaum. Follow me,

not just follow me, like spend
time with me. In year one, it

was come and see, get to know
me, spend time. Year two, it's

follow me, like leave your nets
and follow me, because when they

look for him the previous
morning, he's nowhere to be

found. They find him off praying
in the dark before the sun

rises, and he says, "I have to
go, you know. And in the way

that it's put in the Gospels is,
he says, "The time has come.

Remember earlier, it's not my
time, now the time has come. I

must preach the Gospel to other
cities, for this reason I have

come. So he, he leaves, they
follow him, they become his

Talmudim, which means he's now
full rabbi mode, and he's

traveling out. Not only does he
preach the kingdom, but he

brings the kingdom through the
miraculous. That year, they're

only spectators. It's training
when he says, "Follow me, and

I'll make you something you're
not. Fishers of people, he's

literally training them, they're
spectators only. Then, at the

beginning of year three, this is
the tactical year that in that

year it says he appoints out of
his disciples 12 apostles, calls

them apostles, sent one's
missionaries that he might send

them out. So that year is
bookended by sending in the 12

on the front end, and again
Schnabel says I would have taken

three to four months, because we
know where he went. He went to

Galilee, and he spent.. he..
they.. they have to conjecture a

bit, but they say if he spends
two nights like he did in

Samaria and Sakar. Then we can
assume they're spending two

nights, you know, just marrying
what he did, that would have

taken three to four months. He
says go through all the cities

and towns, you know, six teams
of two, and then the 72 at the

tail end of the year.

In that year, they've.. that's
their first miraculous thing is

on, they come back, Lord, the
demons listen, the miracles

happen, and then that those
intervening somewhere between

four to six months in between is
where Peter walks on water,

miraculous catch a fish, you
know, or the coin, sorry, coin

in the in the fish's mouth, you
give them something to eat, 4000

5000 fed, miracle happens in
their hands, mounted transfer,

anything that they are a part of
supernaturally is in that third

year, because he's prepping them
to leave. That's the time

teaching tactics.

Jessie Cruickshank: Could you
imagine just only having a year

to practice?

Peyton Jones: Right,

Jessie Cruickshank: right. So,
and so, just, but just the

incubation of that whole thing,
you know, it,

Peyton Jones: and they're still
not ready, right? Like, right

before Jesus goes to Bethany,
and then Jerusalem, the

disciples meet the 72 and Jesus,
and they come back and go, Lord,

they went through Samaria,
they're like, Lord, those people

over there did not respond well
to our message about you. Let's

call fire down on them, so you
know, three years 24/7 with

Jesus, and really the nuclear
option still on the table, like

we're gonna fire bomb an entire
nation. Like, okay, all right.

Well, you know that gives a
little hope, might explain a

bit,

Jessie Cruickshank: right? They,
yeah, have

Peyton Jones: I've seen that
before.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah,
unfortunately, unfortunately, we

think we discover we have
something to offer, and we have

this spiritual authority, and
now we're using it to, to smote

our enemies, still, so there's
still hope for

Peyton Jones: us, right? Because
we still got a long way to go.

Sorry, it was my Doberman doing
the doing the shaky shake over

Jessie Cruickshank: here, yay,
puppies, and

Peyton Jones: then grunting. I
don't know if you're that, that

wasn't me, that grind.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, what
you have two books for this,

because you're, you're, you're
time teaching tactics. As you,

as you think about this, you're,
you're not just trying to help

somebody change their mind about
something, or have a new idea

about something. You, you care
about the practice, you care

about the lived experience, you
care about the ordinary person.

So, the book that I, that I read
and reviewed was The Thick One,

and you guys, you can't see this
on audio, but it's a hard bound.

Who even hardbounds anymore?
Like, this thing is. I know,

right? This thing is
substantial. Yeah, and, and 400

pages all over,

Peyton Jones: you know, we mean
business, business, business.

Jessie Cruickshank: So it's so,
so it's written to a leader,

it's written, written to, you
know, somebody who can can

design things and think about
those things, whether that's a

church planting trainer or, you
know, a pastor, that sort of

thing, but you also have this
white book, you also have the

second, the second one, and, and
I want you to talk a little bit

about this, and I want you to
share some of the origin story

on this because it's interesting
for you to say that you're a

serial planter and that you, you
do the thing and then move on,

or at least that the itch starts
to happen, and yet the Lord has

been faithful to draw you and
keep you grounded, and so yeah,

share a little bit of of the
goal, the heart of of the

ordinary person version, which
is called Journey to Disciple

Making.

Peyton Jones: That's so good.
Yeah, it's a great question.

Because the Discipology, the
hardback, Black Book, 400 pages,

I wrote it predominantly for
leaders, and I would, I would

actually say catalyst, because
Emmanuel Prince, he wrote, he

wrote a prolific study of
movements. There's a book out

there called What Actually
Starts Movements, and he

profiled 148 worldwide
movements, and he, he came up

with 21 characteristics for what
they all had in common, and the,

yeah, and the top one was
there's always a catalyst, and

the catalyst isn't always a
leader, that's one of the

interesting things about that,
but there's always someone says,

I want to start a movement of
disciple making, they may not

know that's what they're doing,
but that's what they end up

catalyzing, and so I wrote that
for someone who says I want to

go deep with Jesus and actually
learn how to catalyze people,

because that's the great
commission Jesus catalyzes them

and turns around, gives a great
commission, do these five

things, go baptize, teach, you
know those five things that are

associated. Disciple making, but
then the white book, it was

interesting, because the origin
story on that was here I am

sitting with Zondervan, and
Zondervan says, right, we're

gonna do a book on
discipleology, and I said, no,

it has to be two books, agents
freaking out, he's like, Jones,

he can't do that, I know you
want two books, but no way they

say yes to that, and I'm like,
well, that's what it has to be.

I mean, I'm not publishing a
book, I don't need to publish

books, I don't need to be like,
have a career as a writer, I

really don't. What I am is a
catalyst and a trainer, and I do

this in my real life, but
because we've been doing this,

and it's actually really
working, and it's just

uncovering what Jesus did. I
think we just need to have

something for the everyday
believer, because when I

explained Dishonorvan, I said,
look, movements don't start with

leaders, they're the bottleneck,
we're all the bottleneck. If I

wait for leaders to start
something. I'm going to be

waiting a really long time, and
Jesus bypasses all the leaders

in his day. And I know for the
listeners, most of you listening

are leaders, this is hard to
hear, but you know it's true.

They listen to

Jessie Cruickshank: this
podcast, so they're at least

brave enough to hear things.

Peyton Jones: They know you've
messed with their brain enough,

Jess, so they know. But, but
here's the thing, is what we

did, like when we went to
exponential. Here we have the

two books. We said, because,
because there's an app, you

know, they always say there's an
app for that. Well, we have an

app. We have on through the
word, there's a discipology

plan. And this is the other
thing I said, if we gate

movement behind a book or a
paywall, you'd never get it. So,

could I rewrite that white book,
and the journal is more like an

accompaniment. Everything's in
there, it's not like a light

book with a bunch of blanks, but
it's a proper book. Still, the

256 pages, you get about a half
page per step. It practically

trains you in 28 micro steps how
to get going. So I think of the

journey to disciple making the
white book as the quick start

guide, like when you used to get
your VCR or whatever appliance

you get now, you don't know how
to work it, and you got the

quick start, like a little slip
of paper, like you're not going

to read this user manual, no,

Jessie Cruickshank: and I'm not
going to use the QR code to go

digitally to read the user
manual either,

Peyton Jones: right? Yeah,
exactly, you know, just give me

the quick start guide, put
pictures in it, please, and

just, you know, show me I can
glance at it, and okay, push

that button, do this, do so. We
want to activate people, and so

what we did at Exponentials, we
told the leaders, you're the

bottleneck, which, funny enough,
Jess, you know this from messing

with people, they liked it,
they're like, you're right, I

am, thanks for calling it out,
we said rather than starting

with you, I want you to go to
discipology.com There's a

pretext thing, send this to
someone, boom, it goes to them,

it says, "Hey, download this
Discipology plan. I'll explain

later. You pick three people, by
the way, that's what Jesus did.

We're asking leaders to start
where Jesus said, start with

three people, John gets or Jesus
gets John, Andrew, and Philip.

What people don't realize, he
calls those three. Those three

go and get someone else. John
immediately gets James. Andrew

immediately gets Peter. Philip
immediately immediately gets

Nathaniel. So the first step we
do in, if you come through and

you actually, the first step
they're going to do is they're

going to grab three other, they
each grab one other person, so

now you've got six people, and
I'm telling you, leader after

leader is saying, "Oh my gosh, I
just activated six people to go

on this journey, and it's, it's
a, it's a, it's a journey that's

calming, you know, like I am not
a great evangelist. I'm just

not, and everybody thinks I am.
I'm just stubborn enough to do

the stuff I'm afraid of. That's
been my superpower all these

years. Yeah, I'm terrified of
all this stuff, but I kind of

believe that the Holy Spirit
promised to turn up when we take

those steps and meet us halfway,
so that's my whole missiological

bent, is if I obey and step out
into Holy Spirit turns up, and

that's the addicting part of
being on mission, is when the

Holy Spirit turns up, and you're
like, whoa, you promised me I

wouldn't be alone, look what
you're doing, boom, boom, boom,

so sparingly, reap sparingly,
sow abundantly, reap abundantly.

You just got to have that faith,
and by the way, having that

faith isn't like I have faith,
Jesus is just a little bit of a

mustard seed, and you will move,
Jesus, like it, not even big,

just a teeny bit to trust me in
that baby step, and so each one

of those 28 steps in journey to
disciple making, we're taking

you on the same journey that
Jesus took those early disciples

on, and we're training you
straight up out of what taking

the same principles. What we
don't tell you is it follows

those rhythms, time teaching
tactics. What we don't tell you.

Is in the tactics piece, you're
actually getting the same

instructions that Jesus sent the
12 and the 72 out. We're pulling

a number on you, we're messing
with your brain, Jess. I love

Jessie Cruickshank: it. You
guys, so you're gonna have

walking on water, you're gonna
have feed in 5000 you're gonna

have

Peyton Jones: riding in right
out in the middle of the desert,

teleporting right inside side
saddle with an Ethiopian in a

chariot, it's all I

Jessie Cruickshank: love it, I
love it. That's better than

Disneyland, bro.

Peyton Jones: You know, it's
fun, and what happens, Jess, is

like we're getting people that
are turning up to this stuff,

like first with the cohorts,
like we had this one woman, her

name was Alice, she lives in
Sedona, and if you know anything

about Sedona, it's like New Age
capital of the United States.

So, like, they, they go

Jessie Cruickshank: Meridian
Line or something that they say,

Peyton Jones: yeah. So they,
they go out there, they do all

the Burning Man stuff and blow
harmonicas and expected the

aliens to turn up with their
crystals, and so, so it's it's

fun. And what happened this..
this woman, Alice, she.. she

says, "You know, I came to the
cohort. I just did the first

eight micro steps, and she
wanted to come visit our church

plant in San Diego. And so she
came, she looked around at the

end and said, "Yeah, I think I
know what to do. Now she's in

her 60s, and she said, "I think
I know what to do, and we said,

well, what do you mean? She
said, well, when I came through,

and I did those micro steps, now
I've got 23 people meeting with

me, and Memorial Day is coming
up, and I got 11 more families

joining me that don't know
Jesus, but we're all talking

about Jesus, and they want to
talk about Jesus, and she says,

so now I got to figure out what
to do with them next in your

church plant. It's about, we
said, "Oh, were you playing a

church? She said, "I'm not a
pastor, so you don't got to be a

pastor to do this. Like, this is
everyday believer. If Jesus

bypassed any leaders of his day
and went after teenagers, then

it doesn't matter if you're 16
or 60, right. This is for all of

us. That's what Peter said. This
is for you, and all your, as

many as the Lord of God shall
call. The Holy Spirit is going

to be with all of you, and
anoint you, and equip you, and

empower you. And one of the
things the book, kind of, you

know, starts off with telling
you is we tend to disciple the

way we ourselves were discipled,
which means we tend to not

disciple how we ourselves were
not discipled. In 77% of

Christians out there
statistically were never

discipled.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah,

Peyton Jones: what? What? Yeah,
so what we got typically

Jessie Cruickshank: in pastors,
it's it's pretty similar, or

might even be more a lower
percentage that actually were,

you know, the research is like
10% of pastors were actually

discipled by a living human, not
a book of a dead person, but a

living human,

Peyton Jones: and you're right,
because that statistic, 20 23%

of believers say they were, that
could be at any point in their

journey, then they counted small
groups as a part of that. Now

the actual disciple making,
which I classify discipleship

and disciple making, is two
different things. The disciple

making, which is, you know, kind
of making non-followers of Jesus

into followers of Jesus, that 5%
of people are currently doing,

apparently. You would think,
right? It's like Chick-fil-A

saying, 'Well, 5% of what we do
is sell chicken sandwiches.

You'd be like, 'Oh, Houston, we
got a problem. But, anyways, I

mean, we just keep seeing this
over and over, like people

getting catalyzed right now. We
keep hearing people that now

have multiple groups of, you
know, like, like I keep hearing

the same number, like I've got
six groups of five people

recently. We, someone said I had
six groups of six people a few

weeks ago. Now I've got eight
groups of six people. I don't

know what it is with this math
or what it is with these

numbers, but it's, it's getting
pretty interesting, and we only

started running the beta test in
January, and it's now, it

started at 5000 I haven't
checked in, and since the book

dropped two weeks ago to see how
many people were in, but it,

it's kind of going nuts right
now.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love that.
I love that, because I do think

leaders are the bottleneck, not
in some of them it's a control

thing, but I think the vast
majority, having having worked

with leaders for a long time
now, is that there's a, there's

an over responsibility there.
It's they take it seriously as

they should, they take it
soberly, as they should, and so

they.. it's like a quality
control bottleneck in their own

mind, and you know, how are they
going to know if I don't tell

them? And it requires to release
that to move out of the way

requires a trust in the Holy
Spirit. It that can be

challenging, that the Holy
Spirit is actually in charge and

can actually manage all of this
stuff, and has and has forever,

and and you're not going to be
held accountable. Hey, Pastor,

you're not going to be held
accountable by God for that.

You're going to be held
accountable for being in the

way, not whether, not how those
people go, so yeah, so, so I

think that's why the those
pastors that you shared with

were like, okay, great, yes,
let's get out of the way,

because as we get healthier, as
even the pastoral people, we get

healthier, we're like, oh, it
isn't my responsibility, I've, I

was told things are my
responsibility that aren't, and

they can get out of the way, and
it's a lighter burden, it's an

easier yoke, a more appropriate,
you know, Jesus-oriented yoke.

And then the people can do it,
and the Holy Spirit shows up in

ways that, that I think I love
hearing the stories, because it

raises my own faith, right?

Peyton Jones: Yes, and these are
people that, that would have

written that, and I think all
people do, and those pastors

you're talking about, I have a
heart for them, like this is

this is what the book is written
for, because what I, I'm not mad

at those pastors, right, like I
say in the book, it's not your

fault,

Jessie Cruickshank: right,
they're just trying to be

faithful, they're just trying to
be, yeah,

Peyton Jones: you were not
shown, like Jesus showed the 12

for three years, and this is
plugging the gap of what the

best thing we could do is get on
the time machine and go back and

walk with Jesus, like the 12 and
the 72 and learn, but the

problem is I don't have a time
machine, so the next best thing

is what if we could put
something in place, of course,

you know I'm a diehard fan of
John Wesley, right, who

systematized what they did in
the early church, which he

created movement, and you see
other people doing this

throughout church history, but
for me that organic system,

because that's what we're
talking about, like some people,

they hear system and they go, oh
wait, I'm into organic, me too,

but every organic thing that God
ever put in nature has an

incredible system that runs on,
or there's no such thing as

organic in the way you're
thinking of it in God's

creation, but, but the, the
system of this organic system is

what this is intended to be.
That's why Jesus kept talking

about nature whenever he's
describing the kingdom of God,

and so it is just growing,
nobody's in control of it.

That's what movements do. And as
we, you know, this is what I

want you to do. I want you to go
on that journey with Jesus, and

to learn. It's almost like
coming to Yoda, and I'm not

Yoda. Like, this isn't my stuff.
This isn't like my this is

borrowed brilliance. It's
Jesus's brilliance. I want

people to come back to Jesus and
be like, hey, I get this,

because where we're struggling
is in the tactical rhythm. I

would say that most of the
pastors, they understand the

teaching part. Most Sunday
mornings are teaching

established churches. I'm
speaking to now, and then if you

have like small groups that
operate, you've started to move

into the time, that's what Rick
Warren did, right? He had these

big crowds and he's like,
they're not being discipled, so

he moves into the small groups.
When you put teaching and time

together, that's when you get
discipleship, right? That

transformation happens in
community, right, but it's not

till you add the tactical circle
that you get mobilization, and

because the churches are only
doing time and teaching, we

don't know how to do tactics,
and so the one place I tell

pastors, probably the one place
that your church does have all

three rhythms that are in
operation, is in a youth group.

There's something about we don't
mind teaching kids, we don't

mind spending time with kids,
and we definitely don't mind

taking them out on short-term
mission trips and getting them

activated, because that's what
happens, like a real mission

trip, not like a tourist thing,
or you know, we're just going to

go there, like, but where you
really are engaging in frontline

mission, I was from Calvary
Chapel originally, that's what

they did. We helped plant
churches all over the world, as

when we were young, you know,
the like, we just, they just

flung us out everywhere, and it
was rad, and we did things, and

all of a sudden we experienced
the power of the Holy Spirit,

and God was doing all this rad
stuff, but this book really is

to get you tactically activated
and because you know, like, like

I know in your book on
discipleship, you talk a lot

about how you would see kids
activated, and, and I think most

people that, that understand
mobilization were probably in

youth ministry at one one time,
para

Jessie Cruickshank: church youth
ministry, because you had a

limited amount of time, you had
to, like, yeah, get them going,

and you didn't get to keep them,

Peyton Jones: yeah, yeah, and,
and so I remember trying to get

my, you know, my, my youth to
read the Bible, to pray, to

share their faith, to attend, to
do, and it was like dragging a

shopping cart with square wheels
up a hill, you know, it's like.

It was so hard, and then we took
them on their first mission

trip, and I'll never forget
going through, like, Eastern

Europe in a bullet train, and
I'm walking through the cars,

and with the translators, I'm
watching these kids, and there's

cars where, like, they're on
their knees with these people

receiving Jesus from Hungary, or
they're like the translators

there, and he's weeping, and
these people like, and I'm, and

I'm just.. it was like the Holy
Spirit dropped a bomb on this on

this train. Well, those kids, I
mean, I could tell you stories

about planting in New Zealand,
or wherever. Those kids did not

come back the same. Those kids
were activated in their gifts,

empowered by the Holy Spirit,
and when they came back, they

were like, "What's next? Like,
let's go. And to this day, like,

I can show you the kids that
were never activated, and the

kids that were, the kids that
were are still out there doing

incredible things for God, and
and so you're not fully formed

until you enter into that
tactical rhythm and you get

mobilized, and that's what Jesus
did in that final year, and

that's where I think if we could
do that, if we could solve that

problem, which is what the
journey to disciple making does,

we would start to see movement
again.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
think it's beautiful the way the

conversation around discipleship
and all this has changed in the

last 10 years. I mean, you, yes,
I haven't been doing this as

long as you, but I've been doing
it a while too.

Peyton Jones: You've been saying
better stuff than me for longer

than me, though, because I've
been focused on the church

plant. You've been getting to
the heart of the nugget for

longer than I came to this late.

Jessie Cruickshank: My one of
the core values of hoology is

designed is to design for two
generations of disciples in mind

to to support the leader, but to
design things the leader can

just automatically pass on. They
don't have to reach, they don't

have to digest and regurgitate,
they don't, it doesn't require

them to have their own liminal
reprocessing in order to then

pass it on, so support the
leader, but design for the end

user, and

Peyton Jones: so we did,

Jessie Cruickshank: yeah, no,
and I know that, and I, and I,

that's what I really like about,
because that's put into words

what we did,

Peyton Jones: you said it, you
said it's smarter than I did,

that's that's awesome

Jessie Cruickshank: value
statement, but it, it, it

supports both, both layers, if
you will, because you can just

go after the person in the pew
and not support the leader and

not understand that there's a
responsibility, and an and there

you can do things that dishonor
that that role in that seat, so

I don't believe in that either,
and so you provide both of

these, which is beautiful,
because the conversation has

changed. I mean, 10 years ago,
when I was working with

denominations, you were in NAM,
like, like the conversation was

all about the paradigm shift of
the leader, and a lot of that

did happen, you know. Tons of
people were part of that, but it

didn't. It didn't just
automatically mobilize the body

of Christ. And so, what I love
about what the Holy Spirit is

doing right now is the Holy
Spirit is mobilizing the body of

Christ, and so people who have
not found a place that they feel

empowered as a church home are
finding that now they're finding

communities that that are are
all in on that, and then those

leaders who had the paradigm
shift but couldn't help their

people have paradigm shift, like
those leaders are meeting those

students, and and the Holy
Spirit is is forming something

right now that is an activated
bride, and it's exciting to see,

it's exciting to be a part of,
and having materials out there

that, that I believe in the
bookend, because I believe in

the both, and, and, and you've,
you've created this wonderful

resource, because you have that
value too. So I just love what

God is doing. It gets me
excited. I want you to want to

go back in time. I want to go
forward 10 years. I want to go

forward 15 years and see how
this, how your 60 year old lady

in Sedona, like what is the
fruit of even what she's doing

this week? How, what does that
look like in 10 to 15 years?

Because it's going to radically
change the face of the church

institution, and I hope my I
will be super disappointed if

all these people said, 'I want
to be discipled, we need

discipleship, I want to be
formed, and there isn't

resources to meet that need,
there's not an energy to meet

that need, and it just becomes
another form of church hurt, and

so I want to go forward 15 years
and see the fruit of what God is

doing right now.

Peyton Jones: Oh man, and I, you
know, and I think studying Paul

and learning that he made
mistakes, I mean, you know,

humbly you look, you think I
look for. Or 10 years, and I

realized I'm gonna, I'm gonna
have it to the degree in which I

was not paying attention to
Jesus, gonna make a ton of

mistakes. Let me put it clearly
that I am still on a journey,

you know, like, and that's
that's what I wanted to come

across for the leader. What we
took in, you, you, I don't think

you're guilty of this. You may
be one of the only ones in our..

we mentioned a couple other
people, I think maybe Jr.

Woodward, super gracious too,
but some of us, as missional

writers, in our early days, we
would write this is the new

hotness right here, right? But
this busted old, you know,

hotness, you know, and we would
kind of crap on what came

before, right? Like, like, for
example, church growth movement.

If you ask Peyton Jones what I
think now, it used to be it was

just cool to throw rocks at the
church growth movement. Now I

look back and think we wouldn't
be here without that. Yeah,

number one, number two, that was
because I'm an A-pass person,

that was the evangelist. They
just, we just emphasized the

evangelist during that time,
missional movement. I don't

think it was Apostolic, I think
it was Shepherds, because

they're touchy-feely and timey,
and it became more insular, even

though the name meant no, it's
not. But when I, when I, what I

tried to do with this was write
it, and I really felt the Holy

Spirit telling me, you're not to
criticize anyone or anything in

this. These are my people, and
when I train my disciples, I was

gentle, and I told them, learn
from me, for I'm meek and lowly

of heart, and I really wanted
that to come through in the same

way that Plantology, I worked
really hard to make sure it was

a gender-neutral book, because I
didn't know many church planting

books that spoke to men and
women in the same way. This

book, it was like the Lord was
just saying, encourage them

rather than saying, well, there
are three rhythms, three

circles, and you only have one,
you suck, right? Or you have

two, you're lame. The Lord is
like, celebrate that one circle,

because if we bag on a church
that only has teaching, what's

worse, not having teaching, not
hearing the gospel. Well, that's

not good either, right? Right.
So I'm going to celebrate that

one, and then if you add two,
like at a certain point, say,

look, if you're at, and that's
all you have, add the next

circle, then add the next rhythm
into your church, and watch what

happens, and then you'll be
prepped for the next rhythm. And

by the way, it doesn't matter
what order you, it's a flywheel,

that's one of the things we
bring up, regardless of where

you're starting from, you can
always just add the next rhythm,

and you will hit mobilization as
you hit all three.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, that's
beautiful. And before people

think that I'm a saint, I
definitely like talk trash about

things. I just wasn't publishing
at the time, nobody. I was in

the middle of the wilderness on
expeditions, and you know,

talking trash about things, and
that was the faithfulness of the

Lord to me, is that it wasn't
recorded or in writing.

Peyton Jones: I might have
revised my first book last year

and just put a little dose of
more humility in it, and then

when I came back as an angry
missionary from the field, so

Jessie Cruickshank: yeah, yeah,
so definitely been through that,

but it was interesting when I
hit into disciple denominational

leadership and working with
pastors, and I was, and I came

out of the parachurch thing, and
I'm like, oh my gosh, they don't

know how to disciple, how do
they not, how to, how do they

not pray, like, like I didn't
know how to have a meeting

without prayer, and there was
just so little praying, and I

definitely approached it with
judgment, and the Lord was like,

you cannot lead people if you
don't love them, and I was like,

okay, God, I, you have to give
me a grace here, and then, yeah,

starting to show the beauty of
the people, and breaking my

heart for the role that was
handed people in, and how can

they do something if they've
never been taught, and how can

they, you know, why is my
expectation of them well? That

was what I had to repent of. I
had to repent of my expectation,

and the Lord showed me judging
the Lord for where they were,

because He was like, don't you
think I'm in charge of their

life? Don't, aren't I the author
of their story in this whole

thing, so when I crap on the
story and I crap on the like,

like that's actually me judging
God as a bad author and the Holy

Spirit as, as not doing its job
to lead us into truth, right? So

I was like, ah, you, you missed,
you missed the major repentance

about 15 years ago,

Peyton Jones: yeah, that, that's
actually really powerful. I

think I had the epiphany that
people, you know, like you, like

you said, denominational work
doing that as well, like you

meet these beautiful, I mean
wonderful believers, and you're

like, you guys are precious, and
then the. Have this heart like

they want to, that's that's
where they know the what, make

disciples, they know the why,
because Jesus said to, duh, you

still know the how, they don't
know the how, because no one

told them, you know, when, when
most of us come to faith, this

is what it looks like, right,
we, we, they go, oh, welcome to

the family of God, yay, and
then, and then they give this

like 1000 page book, here, read
this, and you're like, and then

they're like, oh, and be sure to
pray. Oh, don't know how to

pray, don't worry, super easy,
just talk to God like a friend.

You're like, whoa. And then,
like, well, well, and also be

sure to come back and bring
others with you, because you

know you don't want to be
selfish, but there's more where

this good stuff came from. And
then they go, oh, before you go,

there's this guy called the
Devil, totally hates your guts,

totally gonna kick the crap out
of you all week. So be sure to

come back, so we can patch you
up. Bye. And it's like being

kicked out of an airplane,
right? And you've got that

Bible, and you're clutching it
like a parachute bag, you know,

on how to use it, and you're
like, oh goodbye, you know

you're falling, and you hope you
make it back next week, right?

That was your probably three
minute discipleship that you

got, that's it. And so, what I
learned was, so many people out

there, it's not that they're
being disobedient, it's that

they're just disoriented.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah,

Peyton Jones: and, and I just
wanted this to orient them back

to, oh, I see, and it sees three
simple rhythms. It's not rocket

science, but it

Jessie Cruickshank: is brain
science.

Peyton Jones: Some, it is brain
science. It's very much brain

science, which Jess can tell you
all about, and I wouldn't even

pretend to, but somewhere in
there, I'm pretty sure she's

doing an experiment on me,
probably this whole call. So,

Jessie Cruickshank: no, always
your journey to produce this is

evident in the work, which I
also really appreciate. You

know, people who process things
and write a book too early, I

think. Just, you know, just
incubate that a little longer,

and you can tell what you've
done, you can tell the fruit of

your life, you can tell your
experience, and so I don't know,

it to me, it's more of a sage.
This is, I'm going to make you

sound old, and I'm so sorry, but
I'm going to do that. It's more,

I am old. Yes,

Peyton Jones: I've already, I've
been through my midlife crisis

already. I'm old. Let's go. So

Jessie Cruickshank: it's like to
me, it's like going to an elder,

not the flashy, you know,
disciple maker person, I might

still be in that phase right
now. I don't know, I am

precocious though, so I have
more wisdom than my age, but,

but this feels like this feels
like coaching from an elder, and

yeah, I just want to say, thank
you for that. Any last thoughts

that you just want to share,
encouragement, um to people

around the whole thing of being
a disciple and making disciples

in in this life that Jesus
invites us into.

Peyton Jones: Yeah, just just to
to give yourself the gift of

going on the journey that Jesus
invites us all into. I really

think that whenever you go on
this journey of disciple making,

Jesus is calling you, as well as
those 12. I believe we're all of

it was written to us, so that we
could do the same, so we could

learn the same lessons, so that
we could grow in the same thing,

so that we could watch them
screw up, you know, like when

Jesus is on the Mount of
Transfiguration, he comes back

down, and the, he's like, you
know, they're like, Lord, what,

you know, later at the campfire,
uh, Lord, how come we couldn't

cast a demon out, you know, like
there's all these lessons that

he's given them, and they're
lessons for us. Go on that

journey, give yourself that
gift, because Jesus is still

training disciple makers, and
he's saying to you, "Follow me

in this way. Like, this is a new
way of following me. I talk

about three, the three years,
each one has a different

invitation, and the first year
it's come and see, and the

second one it's become a
Talmudine, follow me out of

Capernaum, go on, go on a
journey with me, and then the

third one it's trust me enough
to let me send you those three

different, and there's different
invitations that come with each

one, and there's different
degrees of immersion and

commitment, so you're probably
at a lower level. You might even

be in the come and see with
Jesus, and you have been for a

long time. Just say, you know
what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna trust

him just a little more to go
that next phase with him, and

you know, I write books, and I
tell my stories. I tell other

people's stories, but what I'm
excited about is for you to tell

your story, because I guarantee
you will have them. You will

have your own stories to tell,
and to me, that's the most.

Exciting part is hearing these
stories come back now that are

coming back every month. It's,
it's exciting.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, yeah.
Oh, that gets me so excited,

because I love those stories
too. Well, Peyton, where can

people get the stuff? Because
you've got, you've got a couple

different places. So, so drop
some URL magic on, yeah,

Peyton Jones: so, so the the
number one place is

discypology.com You can get
links to the books, obviously.

Amazon's going to be, you know,
a great place to get the book.

They typically have an on and
off sale. It's been trending

really well on there, so they
tend to give it discounts when

it's selling well, and it's been
like number one in multiple

categories, bestseller, yada
yada, but Disciple g.com will

kind of explain the system and
get you going on the app, which

is completely free. I may not
have mentioned that, but totally

free for you to just get
started. You don't need the

books, you'll just find them
helpful tools as you get going

on the journey, so I'd say
discipology.com is going to be

your best.

Jessie Cruickshank: Love it.
Thank you so much for being with

us today. It's so wonderful to
hang out with you, as always.

Peyton Jones: Always, yeah.
Thanks, thanks so much for

having me on.

Jessie Cruickshank: All right,
well, you've been listening to

The Ordinary Discipleship
Podcast. You can check out the

other episodes that we've got,
wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks so much.

Unknown: Bye.