Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the Ordinary

Discipleship Podcast. I am Jesse
Crickshank, and today I have a

special guest, Natalie Working,
and we are going to talk about

discipling children. So this is
a passion that Natalie has had

for a long time, and we have
been connecting around

discipleship and all of these
things for. Man, I I was sitting

and reflecting this morning,
honey, and it was like maybe 12

years, maybe maybe even a little
longer than that. So your little

ones used to be little, now now
not so little. So I would love

for you to just share who you
are with with my audience, with

the audience here, and you know
what are you what are you

working on? What are you
passionate about, and why you

are excited? I'm gonna guess
you're excited about this

conversation around discipling
children.

Natalie Werking: Yeah, I am so
excited about this conversation

one because so much just respect
for you, Jesse, and your work,

but also just the chance to talk
about it because it is a passion

point of mine. And at one point,
I asked God, like, "Could I do

something else? And He's like,
"Nope, you can keep talking for

kids. Like, use your voice for
children. And so that's what I

keep doing until He tells me to
do something different. But my

story really-I started as a
nursing major. I got a nursing

degree and wanted to do all
sorts of things, and then God

kind of shifted my path, as He
often does, into ministry and

sweat licensed and ordained, and
have served in various

capacities in Next Gen and
missions and kind of compassion

local ministries, and currently
serve with Foursquare Next Gen

and lead a project that is a
grant-funded project that really

focuses on helping parents pass
along their faith to their kids.

This is a it's an important part
of my story. I'm a mom. We have

one kiddo of our own, and then
we're foster parents, and so

we've had 15 other kids live
with us, and so we've gotten to

see what it's like to parent and
disciple different kids at

different ages. So I feel like
I've had all that we have had

all the ages from birth to 18,
actually in our home through

foster care, and so just
passionate about that and God's

call for us to care for orphans
and widows. It's another part of

my heart for this, and I've just
gotten to see different age

groups and different kids of
kind of varying faith. Like we

had an Islamic foster daughter,
and we've had atheist foster

kiddos. And how do we handle
that? And how do we talk to kids

about Jesus and help them along
their journey? So besides that,

also just the research that says
like between the ages of four

and 14 are when most decisions
for Christ that last are made,

and so I just am super
passionate about what are we

doing for kids in those age
brackets from four to 14. There,

everyone's important, everyone
matters, and we want everyone to

know Jesus. But especially
during those crucial that age

gap from four to 14, just really
feel really passionate about

doing a great job reaching and
discipling kids in those age

groups. So yeah, that's a little
bit about me. So excited to get

to be here today.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love it. I
love it. Well, so you know, I

think that most parents want to
pass on their faith. They want

to, but they don't. They don't
want to do that in a way that

either causes harm or that their
kids would reject, like like I

think most parents want to have,
you know, be a for a a force for

good in the formation for their
kids, and and parents choose

different pathways around that.
Like you know, if your kid

doesn't, I know parents who if
their kid doesn't want to go to

church or is fighting them,
they're like, "Oh, I'm. I don't.

I'm not going to force them to
do it because their ability to

make choices here is important
or have agency. I know parents

like my family. The agency that
we had is that there were three

different services that you
could choose from, and you had

to pick from one. So you had
Sunday school, you had regular

church, and then you had
Wednesday nights, and you could

you you could pick, but you had
to go, and and so requirement

for at least once a week was was
that and and there's and there's

a range you know in between
there. What what do you say to

parents who are kind of
wrestling through that question

of how much am I part of this
formation? How much of this

happens apart from me? How much
should I hold space with? How

much should I require? Like,
like, what would you encourage

parents to think about in their
role in the discipleship of

their kids?

Natalie Werking: Yeah, I think
it's important to note that we

are the primary disciplers as
parents. We're the primary

disciplers of a kid's faith, for
good or bad, right? So it's very

hard to overcome the influence
of a parent in a child's faith

development. Truly, so if it's
for good, it's hard for the

world to overcome. If there's a
lack of development, it's really

hard for the church to get
involved in a kid's life later

on. Now, that's not.
Withstanding the power of God

that we know changes lives
radically, that does happen. We

do hear those, but for the most
part, kids will follow the faith

of their parents. And the good
news is, this is actually easier

than we think. And I think we've
complicated it over the years.

What you've written about is
life on life discipleship, not

necessarily programmatic. So the
good news is there's a recent

study by a guy named Christian
Smith, a Notre Dame sociologist.

You can see a lot of his work
where he really measured like

what did create lasting faith in
kids, and did a lot of work, a

longitudinal study that said if
we increase parents' own

devotional life, like parents'
own discipleship, had somewhat

of an impact, 25% impact or
something. If we increase

religious service attendance,
similar to what you're saying,

that the whole family is going
to go to church. What what

impact does that have on faith?
It had significant, maybe 30%

increase. The one that had 66%
increase was when they increased

faith conversations in the home,
and so when you think about

Deuteronomy six, that says,
"Hey, this is the law. This is

the Lord our God is one. Pass
this on. It says, "Talk about

these commandments. Talk about
what we believe when you sit,

when you lie down, when you get
up, when you walk. So, really

taking the pressure off of
families to like, if you can

manage a weekly devotional time,
and you can wrestle your kids to

be at church every time the
doors are open, that's great,

and that's like solid. But
really, what actually makes a

difference in their lives is
open conversations about faith

on a regular basis. So we're
talking more than once a week,

but it doesn't have to be
complicated. It doesn't have to

be deep theology. Like if you
feel like I'm not a theologian,

I don't know how to talk about
these things. That's okay. Talk

about where you saw God today.
You know, walk through the

prayer of examine. Take
something easy. Where'd you see

God today? You have to answer
it. They have to answer it. How

did we show Jesus to our
neighbors today? Those are the

faith conversations that
Scripture instructs us to do,

and luckily, research backs it
up, so it doesn't have to be as

complicated as we think it does.
We just have to do the work to

talk about

Jessie Cruickshank: it. I think,
as a parent, that that would-I

mean-and I'm not a parent. I'm
just like in other people's

lives. I'm-I'm a career auntie.
That would both relieve and

terrify me because you know if I
think about my parents, they

were saved in the Jesus
movement, and my mom had been a

witch before she was in in the
occult before she was a

Christian, and and I had a lot
of questions as a child, and my

and I was like, um, they're
telling me this at church, but

are you sure that drinking's a
sin because the church is saying

that, but then like like David,
like Jesus churned water and

wine, and David danced, and and
and and I saw these

incongruities, and I asked my
parents, and their answer was,

"Go look it up in the Bible, go
ask God about it. Like they

punted. Now now it was
fascinating because each my

brother and my sister and I have
our own relationship with the

Lord, and and we kind of landed
in some fairly distinct theology

streams. But like they were
like, I don't know, go talk to

God. I don't know, you go, you
go inquire with God about that.

So I mean, there were a lot of
conversations, but there weren't

a lot of answers, right? In
that,

Natalie Werking: well, I would
say the strength is the

conversations that kids know
they can ask parents. So there's

probably some great attachment
things that your parents did

when you were young that created
an environment where you could

ask. So how do we do that when
our kids are young, and how do

we then say have the opportunity
for them to ask questions? Just

the fact that you could ask the
question, it doesn't says you

were having a faith
conversation. We don't have to

have the answers. The I don't
know. I wonder. What do you

think about it? What makes you
ask that question? Those still

count. So faith conversations
aren't. We didn't say faith

answers. Oh, I love

Jessie Cruickshank: that. That
that feels like somebody out

there is relieved right now.

Natalie Werking: Yes, yes. You
don't have to have the answers.

We certainly don't, and this is
like literally my job. But I

have keep the conversation
going. Like it's an open

conversation. You can ask me
about your doubts or scripture

that doesn't make sense, or why
did this person say this and do

this. Like an open environment
where kids can ask questions is

what we're after, not where
every question gets answered.

How

Jessie Cruickshank: very
rabbinical,

Natalie Werking: right? Right,
exactly. Like that's the home,

right? The home is the temple.
Yeah, really good.

Jessie Cruickshank: You know,
when I think about the range of

four to 14 that people can come
to faith, like there's some

there's some very different
brain structural differences

between the low end of that and
and the high end of that. I love

talking to kids. Like I love
talking to kids. I love talking

to kids about what they're
thinking. I love hearing from

them when they think about God.
I'm like I love asking them.

Well, what do you think God
thinks about you? And they think

God thinks that they're amazing,
and I mean, I really like kids

have to be taught that God
doesn't like them, which would

probably be a conversation for a
different time. But like, like

they think that God thinks that
they're awesome, and I love

that. I love that. I just so,
but the conversation with a

four-year-old and the
conversation with a 14-year-old

are are quite different. So,
what would you like? Like help

us help us understand some of
those differences there. If if

you're the if you have a young
one or you have a teenager and

you're just about to be
terrified, or you probably like

they're three you're three years
into being terrified of what

they're gonna do. Yeah, what
what should we know? What should

parents know?

Natalie Werking: Well, this is a
lot. We do some even I do some

trainings and I do role play
about how do you talk to a kid

at four and a kid at 14 about
Jesus being in your heart,

right? Because a four year old
with concrete concrete thinking

is like how he's so big. How
does he fit, right? I remember I

was on the radio once, and my
daughter said, "I said, did you

listen to me on the radio? She
goes, "Yeah, but how did you fit

inside there? And pointed to the
speaker at the car, and I was

like, "Oh my gosh! Like she's
four. She doesn't understand

radio waves and how that worked,
right? So when we start to say

like, "Ask Jesus in your heart,
you're like, "That like my heart

will explode. Like that's scary.
That could be scary for a

four-year-old, if we say he's
God is so big, so strong, and so

mighty, right? And then we say
and put him in your heart, and

they're thinking he won't fit.
So how do we? That makes me

Jessie Cruickshank: think of my
little pocket Jesus. I gotta

make I gotta little make a
little pocket Jesus, put him in

my pocket by my heart.

Natalie Werking: I love it. It's
perfect. Those little Jesus can

help us out here, right? Like,
yeah. How do we how do we talk?

How do we shape our language?
And I would say, as a parent,

that this would be like not not
to feel pressured to do this,

but I think for those of us who
are church leaders and who might

be listening, like we have a
responsibility to do the work to

get this right, right? Like, how
can we disciple kids in a way

that's age appropriate, and
Jesse's workbook that is coming

out that's like zero to two and
ages two to six, so incredibly

helpful. So like shameless plug
to use it because I'll send

Jessie Cruickshank: you a bonus
later.

Natalie Werking: Right, that's
so great. She didn't tell me to

say that, but I think the work
that she's done gets us started

on how we are thinking about
these age groups. This is like a

passion point of mine because we
miss it, right? If we're sharing

something that they can't even
apply to them to to where they

are developmentally, so the work
that you've done is is like

critical. And so I don't know if
we want to like walk through the

age groups. Like what you've
done is so beautiful that you

think about you know like babies
and toddlers right and how are

we their parallel play right so
how do we have them beside us

during faith practices and
sacraments right they're not

cooperatively playing yet right
but parallel play they will

mimic and begin to see and so
how do we, as church leaders and

as parents, kind of tap into
their kind of brain development

there, and we do parallel play,
and we we begin they they see

themselves in a mirror, right?
So I always say, like your your

nursery and your toddler rooms
and your at home and at church

need mirrors where we say, look
look who God loves, look who

look who is so loved, and they
see themselves in the mirror,

and they're fascinated by like
that's me, right? Everything is

about them at that stage. So
then, as as we're growing up, I

think there's such great
opportunity for in those

preschool years for really
solidifying like what we believe

in in a way that's age
appropriate, right? But how do

we how do we use the moments
that we have with them to we

call it like it's called Velcro
Velcro habits or habit stacking

in like leadership stuff. But in
family ministry, we we talk

about kind of Velcro habits,
like we're brushing our teeth,

and so when we brush our teeth.
We say a verse that reminds us

of who we are in Christ, right?
Or as you buckle your seatbelt,

right? These little habits that
we're doing every day. How do we

add something onto that? So when
we buckle our seatbelt, we pray

for the world. Like we're
shaping worldview in that

moment. And I think as parents,
those are really easy. Like this

isn't. Oh my gosh! I have so
much to do. How do I add

discipling my kid into this?
These are Velcro habits-moments

you're already doing that we can
Velcro a spiritual practice onto

it, and kids begin to see how
those spiritual disciplines fit

into our lives in a way that's
like seamless. So by the time

they're older, they've been
doing this, like they've been

engaging in prayer, they've been
like meditating on scripture.

That when they brush their
teeth, they've done that since

they were four. This becomes a
normal part of practice, and so

we're discipling them in the
things of God without like

here's the book and turn the
page, and we've now created like

this. Boring interaction with
God that may not engage them,

Jessie Cruickshank: right?
Because because what you're

talking about doing with those
Velcro habits is engaging their

autobiographical memory, and
while their brain is forming,

they are creating an awareness
of God and others and love and

those kinds of things in the
process of them functioning in

their very their very lives, so
it's not it's not an other thing

that we learn later. Or God
isn't a story in a book, right?

Where where they're where it's
it like your daughter was like,

how did you fit in the radio?
Well, how does God fit in the

book? It becomes an ingrained
process that their awareness

will grow with them, yes, and
it's not something they have to

learn. So it's like a language,
right? So if you learn a

language as a kid, then you talk
it all the time and becomes part

of just the wiring, fundamental
wiring in your brain. That's

what that kind of practice will
do through your autobiographical

memory, because your some your
your prefrontal lobe is in form

until you're like 25, so all of
this stuff has to be done

through practice, through
action, through story, through

the regular routine of my life.
I just always thought I was

weird. We taught systematic
theology to kids, or we teach

kids a version of Jesus that has
no complexity to it, and and I

think we miss. I don't know. I'm
I'm just I'm gonna yeah I'm

gonna say something that might
be slightly controversial, but I

think we should have. I had a
picture Bible growing up, so it

was the scripture with like
cartoon, like not cartoon, but

like comic book, and like
Charlton Heston as Moses was on

the front cover, and it didn't
shy away from like like like I

would find the creepy hand write
you know the picture of the

creepy hand writing on the wall
you know during yeah Nick

Tommen. I don't know. It's a
you've been weighed and found

one team. Parson, yeah, we know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, I

found the creepy ghost stories
in the scriptures. I found like

some Samson and Delilah
destroying the temple, and you

know when we have a version of
scripture for kids, especially

when they're like eight, 910,
that doesn't have that because

it's we've we've we've treated
them like they are four year

olds still. I don't know that
kind of that kind of bothers me.

I learned that God was complex
earlier, and I learned that like

this was a whole history. Like
this was a really really long

story,

Natalie Werking: especially with
Gen Alpha, so the generation of

kids that we have now who are
exposed to so much information

and technology. I mean, truly,
they are capable of

understanding more than previous
generations. Like they, because

they take in so much information
and process it. So their brains,

there's a lot. I mean, you
probably could explain this much

better than I could, but they're
able to understand more complex

things, right? So this is if you
have a grandparent try to help a

third grader with math, they're
like, I didn't do this in third

grade. You're right, right? Kids
are learning more complex things

earlier, and so we have to be
careful that we don't. Yeah,

like you said, we're still
telling the 12-year-old, the

four-year-old Bible story, and
they're like, "What in the

world? Like, what does this have
to do with the world? Because

they're exposed to so much
information and literally the

globe of information, all on
that cell phone or that computer

that they, you know, have every
day at school. So how do we grow

up with them? Grow up our
teaching methods and the way

that we talk about the story of
Scripture, and not just keep it

as like you know the moral
therapeutic deism that we're

teaching four year olds of like
God helps me be strong. And

you're like, well, that's not
really where we are when we're

10, right? Like we, how how do
we do the work as church leaders

to say no? This is actually the
big picture here because this

generation, Gen Alpha, is
capable of understanding more

more complex issues sooner.

Jessie Cruickshank: You talked
about buckling and the Velcro

habits. What a what about that
eight, 910, year old range?

Like, it's interesting for me
that they make meaning of their

identity as I am what I do, and
God is magic because God can do

things that they can't. And
they're like, wait, what? Part

the Red Sea? That's incredible,
you know. And and that and that

that sense of wonder, that sense
of bigness, that sense of their

own agency and the limits of
their own agency, that they're

that they're coming into an
awareness of, and and then

towards the so that phase ends
when we when they start to hit

puberty, which there's a whole
range age range for. But what do

you? What would you encourage
parents of that older eight,

910, year old age range for for
discipleship? What could that

look like in the home?

Natalie Werking: Yeah, two
things. One is the term

anchoring bias. You know this
term, I'm sure, right? So we

want to be sure. So the the
principle here is right. The

first place that you hear
something becomes an anchor, and

you'll filter other information
through that. So when it comes

to conversations about what may
be going on in the world or

differences in beliefs, we want
to be sure that that we as

parents are providing the anchor
for our kids. So we're not

skipping over the tough
conversations, and and it's

okay, like your parents said.
Well, why don't you talk to God

about that? But we also want to
be able to provide a little bit

of an anchor, and it can just be
this is what I think about it.

And and so if a kid asks about
you know the someone they saw at

the grocery store, why does that
person not have shoes or you

know is dressed differently or
whatever that we address it. We

don't go. Oh, don't worry about
that. At eight, we need to be

providing that anchor, maybe
even earlier, to say this is

what we believe as a family, and
and here's and we get to kind of

name the value. You know,
everyone struggles with

something, and that person's
struggling, and they need to

take it to Jesus or something
like that. Like that, we're

naming it, and so that that
becomes the anchor for them

through which they'll filter
future information, right? And

and they may shy away from it,
just like you can get away from

an anchor later in life. But I
think it's really important to

establish that and not not avoid
topics that we think like maybe

they don't pick up on because
kids are so they are they are so

smart. They pick up on it. The
other thing I would say, and I

think you do a great job with
this in your work, Jesse, is

just the power of stories of
real life people living out

their faith. And I have a have a
funny example. This my own my

own kiddo's life. She won't care
if I share this. Where I was

meeting, she we got her a book
about like extraordinary women

of God, right? So it has people,
you know, biblical women, but

just women in today's world,
honestly, who are just living

for Jesus and you know just
doing great things in the world

and for the kingdom. And she'd
read it. I hadn't read it to

her, so I didn't really know. I
mean, I read through it to be

sure it's fine, but I didn't
like read it with her

methodically or anything. She
just read it, and so I, she had

a friend, my my best friend's
daughter wanted to be baptized,

and so I was meeting with her
about water baptism to make sure

she understood and you know the
discipleship moment of like what

are you doing? Why are we doing
this? And my daughter was there,

and I you know we wrapped up
this time, and we're kind of

saying like, okay, this is
great. I think you understand

it. We're so excited for you to
obey Jesus in this way and

whatever. And I said, let's do
it. And my daughter leans back

in her chair and she goes, yeah,
but it's risky. And I said, what

did you say? She goes, yeah, but
it's risky. And she's been

hearing the conversation, and
I'm thinking like, oh, because

she has you know tubes in her
ears. I said oh you're like

worried about you know getting
water in your ears like it's

that's risky to go underwater
without you know your earplugs

in, and you know I said we can
you you can wear earplugs to get

water baptized it's fine. She
goes no it's it's risky because

if you surrender to Jesus you
could end up like Elizabeth

Elliot eating monkey brains in
Ecuador after they kill your

husband, and I was like, okay,
like in her brain, she's 10,

right? So we're saying this 989,
10 age. Like the story, she

applied the story to her life.

Like if I surrender to Jesus,
she was holding out to be water

baptized because she was ready.
Like I'm gonna surrender to

Jesus, and I gotta be ready for
whatever He asks me to do. So I

think the power of stories, kids
connect with them. It's why

Disney movies work or whatever
movies work, right? The power of

story in their life, and we
begin to help them see the the

overarching story of of
Scripture, right? That will be a

powerful, powerful piece of
their discipleship.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, and
that would land just so much

more impactful than like if you
just said, "Hey, if you

surrender your your life to
Jesus, you're you're

surrendering your whole life. I
mean, they can't conceive of

what their whole life like.
Like, what is that? I don't even

know what that means half the
time. But like, I mean, I'm

getting older. It's I'm like,
oh, oh, you mean the rest of my

life? I'm starting like, oh, the
oh the the what's left of it.

You're enhancing your

Natalie Werking: development
now, right? But when you're

Jessie Cruickshank: 10, you
know, like like seeing how

that's played out for other
people and and what that what

that's cost them, what's that
what that has required of them?

Yeah, so much different than to
just read a Bible verse and you

know memorize it at 10. So we
were talking about memorization

a little bit before we started,
and I and I I want you to share

what you shared with me because
because as an adult I get like

I'm kind of not super keen on
the whole memorization. Thing,

because I think we need to have
experience and embodiment. And I

think, you know, if you can
learn something about God and it

just goes into your semantic
memory, which is disconnected

from the rest of your body, then
you can think you know something

and never actually be able to
live it out. Because

autobiographical memory is the
only one that applies to our

tomorrow in in that kind of
lived out way. But as we were

talking before we got started,
you were sharing about some of

the researches around scripture
memorization, especially for the

younger kids. And like, yeah,
like I would love for I would

love for you to share that.

Natalie Werking: Yeah, yeah. We
were just chatting a little bit

about, especially in the
preschool and the early

elementary ages about the
importance of scripture

memorization because of the
ability one they're sponges

right so they can memorize
everything right they know every

word to every song they can
pronounce the

Jessie Cruickshank: dinosaur
names right like who who can do

Natalie Werking: crazy they
can't even read but they know

pterodactyl like and they can
tell you it's incredible right

so we want to tap into that for
their discipleship. I even think

I grew up. I went to a Christian
school in preschool, and I can

still like go through the ABCs
of like a all ascend and fall

short of the glory of God. B
believe in the Lord Jesus

Christ. C cast your cares. Like
I can say all 26 and I didn't

like review them, but I had them
in my memory. We did it at age

four and five and six, and
something stuck. And so, one is

as a pastor, as a preacher, I
have recall on scripture fast

from those 20-six. Right, it's
much more difficult the older

that we get to memorize
scripture. So whether it's

valuable or not, I would. I
mean, I would say it is right.

We want to speak the word and
have it, you know, ready, ready

when we need it to speak life
into people's hearts. But the

age group, I think, is so
important that if if you're a

church leader or a parent, is
get those young kids memorizing

scripture. They can do it. They
can memorize a lot of scripture,

and then it's kind of cemented
in, and it's really hard to lose

that as they grow up.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, yeah.
I think about like I was a and I

was an Awana kid and memorized
tons and tons and tons and tons

of. They do a

Natalie Werking: great job,

Jessie Cruickshank: and that
like it is, it is in me, and I

can quote verses now. They they
tend to be a bit of an NLT NIV

blend like like it's my blended
embodied regurgitated

paraphrase, but that's

Unknown: right.

Jessie Cruickshank: But yeah,
like there's just there's tons

of scripture in my awareness
because of doing that as a kid.

Actually, got me into trouble in
church because I could argue

with scriptural evidence with
the Sunday school teacher, and

Natalie Werking: they weren't
prepared for that. They didn't

know a kid would know that much
scripture. Like that's not what

it's or ask

Jessie Cruickshank: those kinds
of questions or see the the

conflicts, right? Yeah, you know
we usually wait for for

adulthood to think that we're
going to ask those kinds of

hard. Yeah,

Natalie Werking: but we want
kids to do that, right? Like,

how how great is it that you
could wrestle? And and how how

could we create church
environments where a 12 year old

can do that? Can go, you know, I
learned cast all your cares upon

the Lord because He cares for
you. Except that I keep

struggling with anxiety and it
won't go away. And I cast it to

Him, and tomorrow it comes back
again. Like, what a beautiful

place for church leaders to be
able to connect with kids in

that moment. Like this is the
scripture I know. I know that's

true. I know it's truth, right?
If it's in the Bible, it's true.

And also, this is my wrestling
with it. How do we create those

spaces and homes to say, you
know what? I struggle with that

too, honey. Like I, I get that
as well. And and how do we

create places in church that
don't kick Jesse out of the

Sunday school class, but say I'm
so glad you asked that question.

I'm so glad you asked that
question instead of like I have

to have the answer for that.

Jessie Cruickshank: So what does
this look like then, like for

churches to come alongside
parents or support parents in

the discipleship of their kids.

Natalie Werking: Well, good. I
think so often we as church

leaders we like point at parents
and we go, "You're the primary

disciplers, right? We're like
pointing a finger, and so often

parents are pointing at us,
going, "Yeah, but you're the

experts. Like I don't know what
I'm doing. And so my dream is

like instead of like pointing,
we end up pointing fingers at

each other. What if instead we
linked arms, right? And we said,

"Listen, we want to support you
as a partner in discipling your

kids. I really think we've been
pointing fingers and saying it's

your job, it's your job, instead
of like actually truly working

for partnership. So my thing, if
you're a church leader, would be

listen, like, like ask parents
what they actually need because

you might be surprised when they
go. Actually, I just need a

space for like hanging out with
other families who have the same

similar values as us. Like we
had a church that did that. She

asked about 20 families, "What
do you need? And like after like

the first. 12 said we need like
space to hang with other

families who believe like we do.
She just started opening the

church on Friday nights and it
exploded. It was bring your own

dinner. She literally did
nothing except open the church,

and so it's just like the light
bill is the only cost she had.

But it created such deep
community and discipleship

opportunities where then she
could go around and talk with

parents, like how's it going?
What are you struggling with?

What's your kid need? How can we
support you? So my suggestion to

church leaders is do a lot more
listening. Ask. That's what

partnership looks like. And then
parents to say, hey, this is

actually what we need. Most
church leaders would would love

to know. I think. I think most
church leaders. If you said,

"Hey, I'm really looking for
this for my kid, or "Our

family's really struggling to
make this a habit, how do you

make it work? Those are the type
of questions I think are so

great to ask. So I would say a
lot of listening to parents is a

great way to start a
partnership.

Jessie Cruickshank: Do you think
that there should be Sunday

school? This is. I'm gonna just
totally put you on the spot. Or

do you have children in the
service? You know, like, like I

know there's lots of schools of
thought around that, and and I

don't know if there's a wrong
answer. Maybe there is a wrong

answer. But is there is there
anything that the research is

showing around the spiritual
formation of kids, even in the

structure of how we
traditionally do a Sunday?

Because I've been in other
countries, they don't they don't

put the kids in a different
room. They don't have a

different age appropriate kind
of thing. Like the kids watch

the adults, they mimic the
adults, and as they're able to

understand stuff, they slowly
begin to understand stuff. But

yeah, no. But then that's not
like of developmentally

appropriate. So, in the the
scope of possibilities,

Natalie Werking: what did I?
Yeah, it's really interesting

when you think about church
history, just really broadly,

that the whole idea of like
age-specific ministry is

relatively new when we think
about the church. So people

think it's so good to remember
people have been following Jesus

for a really long time without
age-appropriate, without

Disneyland kids ministries.
Like, can we just say that,

right? Like, but at some point
with the seeker-sensitive

movement, we decided we needed
Disneyland at church every

Sunday, and that if kids weren't
having fun, then we weren't

succeeding, right? So there's
been some great work. the The

guy from Awana has done great
book. I would recommend that

just recently, post COVID, has
really said how do we begin to

shift to deep formation, and
that probably doesn't look like

Disneyland anymore, right? We
we're looking at Mister Rogers

type stuff where there's
authenticity and simplicity,

there's there's engagement,
there's imagination. But my my

question is, why can't we create
that in our Sunday morning

services, right? If if there
could be space for families to

worship together, I think
there's so much strength in

that. Right, families are so
busy. We interviewed 465 parents

as a part of this research
project, and the number one most

stated word. Do you want to take
a guess what it was? Busy.

Everybody says we're busy,
right? And and varying levels of

busyness, but everyone feels
like they're busy, and so

there's a lot of lot of time
that families are apart. Imagine

a space where families could be
together, could experience

Jesus, could worship, and could
grow closer to Him, closer to

the community, and closer to one
another. Like that's the dream,

right? So how do we do that? We
have a church that we're

coaching now that is shifting to
like basically a family model.

Like, what do we have to do to
make our Sunday morning

expression something that
families can come to together

instead of doing separate kids
and youth ministries? And really

exciting to get to watch that
growth. So if it were me, that's

what I would do. I forgot to
mention I pastor a church on a

college campus, and our biggest
success this is young adults is

we just have dinner on Sunday
nights. So it's a Bible study

they can come to beforehand, but
dinner at 6o'clock and kids show

up. They bring their friends. We
have conversations. We play

board games. We laugh, and
there's such great community

there. So, how do we create
spaces where families can be in

community and growing together?
So, I think there's there's

space for things like Sunday
school. There, that is like good

theological training. What I am
beginning to question and I

think wonder about is if as soon
as a family arrives, we put them

all in separate spaces. Are we
really supporting and partnering

with parents, or are we actually
working against? Like parents

hear a message, kids hear a
separate message, preschooler

separate message, and youth
group doing something different.

Is a lot of her. To overcome for
discipleship. So, how do we, as

pastors, begin to say, "Listen,
we want to help a family grow

and begin to think of it broadly
instead of just each individual

ministry. I don't know if that
answers. I I shouldn't say yes

or no. We should do that. But
those are my thoughts and my

wonderings.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think it's I think it's

a good I think it's good to have
ask the questions and kind of

work through the assumptions and
say wait do I do I hold to those

assumptions

Unknown: yeah

Jessie Cruickshank: and what am
I curious about what do I think

we could change in the way that
we do all of this together so

and I wonder if taking the kids
immediately back like. adds to

that feeling that parents have
that I doubt that they would

ever say. Which is, I you don't
know how to do this, parent. So

we're gonna take your kid, let
the professional take your

child, and disciple them. You
you need help, and so you know

it. I wonder if it just adds to
that feeling of

disqualification, I know as a as
a church member and a and a and

a you know part of the
leadership of my church, I never

get to meet those kids. I don't
get to know those kids, right?

So when they're like, "Hey, we
need more volunteers for

children's, I'm like,

Natalie Werking: and you're
like, "Bring him here. Well, and

Jessie Cruickshank: and I'm
like, well, wait, these these.

I'm a stranger to these kids. I
wonder, I wonder how they would

respond to that. You know, like
like I I wonder what that does

to the the implicit
understanding of who's qualified

to disciple the kids,

Natalie Werking: and what would
it look like for people to be

together in service and have
some sort of engagement

discussion, which we know
actually dialogic education is

better for adults as well. By
the way, like like talking head

on stage doesn't actually create
lasting change usually. How can

we how can we incorporate that
and then leave parents with one

or two conversations for
Thursday night's dinner time and

and the empowerment that could
take place in homes for faith to

develop there, versus our kids
did something really cool and

they have fun. Like that's not
the goal here, right?

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, it's
it's interesting, and I I love

that you're open handed and and
can bring some of the research

into this. If a parent wants to
know where some of this research

is, or they or even over a
church leader, like like best

practices for Gen Alpha, those
kinds of things. Do you have

any? What are some of your
favorite resources and things to

go check out?

Natalie Werking: I mentioned the
book by Matt Markins. It's

called Forming Faith. I would
recommend it for every church

leader. It will help shape this
conversation about what truly is

discipleship and deeper
formation. Obviously, Jesse's

workbook that's coming out.
Please go through that; it would

be so helpful. If you're a
sociology person and love the

research, "Handing Down the
Faith" by Christian Smith, it's

a it's a heavy read, but a lot
of what I shared today comes

from that research. And then, if
you're interested in things like

Velcro habits, there's a book
called Little Habits, Big Faith

by Christy Thomas. That's an
easy read. I think it's meant

for moms to develop, you know,
habits in the home. That's an

easy, do it with a small group
kind of read.

Jessie Cruickshank: Love it, so
good. One last word of

encouragement you would leave
people with for the discipleship

formation of children.

Natalie Werking: Oh man, just
really reiterating, like talk

about your faith. We see it in
scripture, but sometimes we've

complicated it over the years.
But creating spaces where kids

and teenagers can talk about
their faith in the home and at

church, and you don't have to
have all the answers. You just

have to have the conversation
open. That would be my biggest

encouragement.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love it.
So good. that That sounds like

an easier yoke and a lighter
burden. Amen.

Natalie Werking: Isn't that how
the things of God should be?

Right. Right.

Jessie Cruickshank: Exactly. If
it doesn't feel like good news,

then then we need to we need to
ask some follow ups. So that's

great, Natalie. It's been so
good to have you this morning

and talking and sharing. And I
just love the work that you're

doing and your passion, your
passion and your like the the

nerd angle you bring to the
passion. Like I

Natalie Werking: convencing
degree like runs in the back of

my mind all the time. Research,

Unknown: yeah, we're

Natalie Werking: friends in that
way. Yeah, kindred spirits.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. Oh,
thank you so much. Thank you for

having me. It's been a joy.
Well, thank you for joining us

on the Ordinary Discipleship
Podcast. You can check out.

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