Jacob: Hello, folks. Today on
the ordinary discipleship

podcast, we are talking about
discipleship. I'm Jacob. I'm

here with Julia and Jesse, and
we are talking about a topic

that is covered in their
upcoming book, becoming good

news. The question today is,
what is the difference between

discipleship as doing and
discipleship as receiving? And

what does it matter? Like, what
does that distinction matter?

How does it influence the way
that we perceive discipleship

and the way that we grow in the
Lord? I know this is something

you guys have wrestled with a
lot, so I'm anxious to hear what

you have to say.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah,
thanks, Jacob. You know, I think

it's an it's an interesting
distinction when you think about

it. I don't know how many people
think about discipleship is

doing versus discipleship is
receiving, but if we acknowledge

that we're being discipled and
shaped by the things that are in

our world, the narratives, the
people that we follow, then for

me, discipleship, that's doing
based discipleship is like an

action based discipleship, not
to say that receiving is

passive, but it becomes
something that I can do no

matter who I'm following, right?
So for me, a doing based

discipleship is a discipleship
that I am walking out my agenda,

and given that my agenda isn't
always pure. To me, it becomes

more of a religion than an
actual, you know, formation into

what I want to be for me, a
doing based discipleship I can

get off faster than maybe a
receiving based discipleship. So

when I think about it, when I
think about it like that, I'm

like, I can be being a disciple,
but it's easier for me to become

a disciple of something I don't
actually want to be a disciple

of. And I can get, I can get led
astray, into into a workspace

world. So it's, it's a
distinction that begins that

that came about as I was kind of
interrogating my heart, and am I

moving in the direction and
becoming what I hope to become?

And then we had to ask the
question, Well, wait, how do we

become? How do we become? Yes,
and that's where Julia, I think,

had this, some language around
that that really helped shape my

thinking around, how are we, how
are we becoming? What is the

process becoming actually look
like?

Julia: Yeah, I started in
ministry when I was 19 years

old, and so by the time I was 21
I had pretty much washed out

ministry. And you know, I'll
say, you know, went and then

went back and was in, you know,
had years and years and, you

know, eventually kind of burned
out a bit on it. But I would,

people would always say, you
know, because I, I'm a, you

know, like many of you, I'm
pretty capable person. And so

they would just say, thank you
for what you do, thank you for

what you do, thank you for what
you do. And, you know, I was

just, it was like, I love what I
do. I love serving the church. I

love serving the Lord. I you
know, and I wanted my entire

life to matter. I wanted to give
my all. And then at a certain

point, I reached this, like I
actually left a ministry

position. My family, we all
moved from California to Texas,

and I was no longer at the same
church. I was no longer with the

same people, and I was no longer
in the same job, and then all of

a sudden the question was, Who
am I if I am not doing ministry

for God? And a very big identity
crisis hit me, and I did. I

couldn't. I wouldn't have called
it that at the time, but that's

what was happening, if I'm not
doing stuff for God, do How am I

being a disciple of Jesus, and I
just remember crying out to God.

I remember going to church a
week after week. And you got to

understand that when I grew up,
but I grew up at a church that I

was with these amazing people.
It was like a family for the

first 2530, years of my life.
And so when our family chose to

move because it just felt like
God was leading us in that

direction. You get to a church
where you don't know anybody,

and you don't even think, Oh,
you show up going, this is my

church. These are God's people,
and they're amazing and they're

wonderful. But I remember
showing up on a Wednesday night

to a worship service like, I
don't think anybody here knows

my name. Got it? Am I completely
invisible? And again, who am I

if I'm completely invisible and
and fortunately, by God's grace,

one person, the one person there
that knew my name, came up to me

and said, introduce themselves
to me. And I'm like, How are you

doing? And it was really just a
God moment, but I began just

crying out to God. And I
remember even calling my friends

back home, and nobody was
answering, and just filling this

great void of, there's who is
there. There's nobody in my life

who's even going to see me at
this point. I don't know if you

guys have ever felt like that
way, where you're just like, oh,

like, nobody even cares. And I
was really crying out to God

about it. And it for, not just
for a day, it was for a couple

of weeks and, you know, and then
just kind of put it on the shelf

because it's like, or. God, I
don't even know what to do with

this. I don't know what I'm
doing with my life. You know, go

through those moments. I was
probably, I was probably about

35 at, you know, 35 at that
point, I had young kids, and I

love being a mom, but, you know,
you want something more than

just picking kids up from school
and doing that every single day.

And I remember making dinner one
day, and, you know, I'm just, I

don't know beef, you know
spaghetti or something like

that. And stirring, and all of a
sudden, I just heard the Lord

say, probably one of the
clearest times, if not the only,

clear time in my life, I heard
the Lord say, it's not about

what you do, it's about who I
am. And I immediately was just I

was floored. I wasn't, I wasn't
praying at that moment. I wasn't

I it was just like out of the
blue, as I now know. It was one

of those aha moments, one of
those revelations that God just

dropped into my head that just
says, It's not about about what

you do, it's about who I am. And
I did not know at the time, but

God brought that back as we were
writing the book up this last

year, that it's not about what I
do, it's about who I am, and I

think doing is actually an
important, I mean, we'll talk

about this in the coming weeks,
in the coming episodes, doing is

an incredible part of what of
our formation we actually have

to do to be to be formed. I have
a good friend of mine who says

that she uses the work to get
the people done, because you

have to, sometimes get, you
know, you actually have to like

the the doing is how we work it
out. But there does come a

point. And I think I'm not going
to age myself, but I'm 47 so

there you go. But there comes a
point in your late 30s and 40s,

right where you go. I am no
longer like. Everything I used

to do isn't working anymore. So
what God, what changed? Am I not

good enough? Am I not worthy
enough? Am I do I not have this

figured out, like and my and I
realized that as we, as Jesse

and I both did, as we were
writing this book, that we were

turning it back on ourselves and
going, wait like we reached a

point at what we did. It wasn't
getting it done for us anymore

in terms of our relationship
with God. And so is there

something there that God wants
us to lean into? And so for us,

it was okay, we have to start
asking different questions. This

is not about what or why or how
we make disciples or how, you

know, like, that's the question
that ultimately we were trying

to answer. How do you ignite an
entire, you know, generation of

people, so that everybody's
making disciples. How do you do

it? Well, it's you stop asking
what, why and how questions, and

you start asking who questions.
And that was a huge because who

questions are formational, who
questions are about relationship

and who? And that's actually how
we change.

Jacob: So if we could define the
terms a little bit where we

started is like discipleship as
doing is when it's time to grow,

when I realize I need to grow
into the next season of who God

is calling me to be.
Discipleship as doing says, buy

the book, do the devotional,
join the program. And what I'm

hearing you guys say is
discipleship as receiving is

more about receiving your
identity from and that's where,

like, I like, what you said,
Julia, is like, it's not a

complete non doing in my entire
faith life. It's just sort of

about where we begin, is it? And
what you were saying, Jesse, is

like, what I what I was thinking
was like, we tend to say, Oh,

I'm going to grow in the Lord.
I'm going to figure it out. I'm

going to become who God has
called me to be. And in that

we're we're kind of, we're
centering our own self

determination. What I'm hearing
you guys say is we need to pause

on that and allow our identity
to be informed by God first, and

then our doing will flow from
that. Is that? Right?

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. And
when you look at the science of

human formation, we're actually
created for it to go in that

order, right? So we're created
to look at something and mirror

that, and then that, that action
and the response to come out of

that we're not created to look
at a blank slate or to look at a

blank wall and then just make it
up. That creates anxiety in us.

You know, all of that, you know,
live your best life. You know,

be successful. Let's play the
game. Win the game. All of that

has created a lot of anxiety in
us and a lot of depression and

loneliness, because we're not
created for that to work. We're

not created to be the one who
goes first. We're created to be

the one who goes second and
response to what we're looking

at. You know? So, so, so that
actually disciples us. What we

look at disciples us. And so we
are always being discipled by

what we're receiving, whether we
know it or not. The thing is, is

that we think we're being a
disciple of Jesus. If we jump

into the program, and we lean
into the actions, and then we

think that changes us, but it.
Doesn't we're just, we're not

created to work in that order,
which is why we end up being,

not Christ, Christ like and
looking more like the world than

we do like the Jesus in the
Scripture. And so, you know, for

me, the discovery was around,
you know, why? Why am I not

being like the Jesus that I
follow? What? What's why, in all

of my effort and all my
initiation, and I am an

initiated apostolic, prophetic
like, like I'm going to jump

first and ask questions later.
Kind of person like that

initiation, an initiative, was
not leading me in the the right

direction. And so when I was
like, why am I not looking like

the Jesus that I want to follow.
Why am I spending all of this

effort? And I can still feel
this horrendous gap in my soul

between between me and the Lord?
I looked at that and I was like,

Okay, well, maybe I don't maybe
I don't actually know what I'm

supposed to be doing here, and
maybe all of this doing is

distracting me from receiving
and hearing the Lord and sitting

with the Lord, because when the
Lord speaks, then when the Holy

Spirit leads, it's there's only,
there's only one thing to do. I

don't have to figure it out.
I'll have to know. I don't have

to solve my own future. I don't
have to, you know, scenario plan

and come up with all of these
strategies. I don't have to do

the program. I can just sit with
the Lord and get an instruction.

And then there's one thing to
do, you know, and that I was so

exhausted from all of the trying
and all the doing and all of the

failure that I needed to just
sit with the Lord and have him

make it simple again for me, and
receiving as discipleship is

extraordinary simple. And the
other, the thing that, like, I

know this is gonna sound really
obvious, but it was like mind

blowing to me, is that, one, the
grace is there, and two, like,

there's no failure. There's no
failure if I sit and receive and

become obedient to the thing the
Lord is asking me to do, because

then I don't have to sort
through all the human wisdom of

the advice of what to do, some
of which pertains, some of which

doesn't that I've advice always
contradicts. Like, like, God's

word to me is immediately
contextualized. It's immediately

exactly what I need, exactly in
that moment, and I don't have to

solve the problem. And like,
like that was that was

extraordinary, that burden, that
lifted the burden, and it eased

the stress and the anxiety went
away. So, so even when I think

about how we're created
biologically, we're created

biologically to be responsive
and and to move second after we

receive from the Lord. So if we
can reframe our discipleship

around receiving rather than
programming, we'll partner with

the biology and the Scripture
better than we have been, yeah,

Jacob: and Julia, so in your
story, then if, if we're saying,

like, like, Jesse's pointing out
that we're created biologically

to be responsive to mirror. And
you talked about, like, starting

your career in ministry, kind of
reaching burnout early, because

you realized that everything it
was all doing and achieving, and

that you got lost in it, then
you get this word from the Lord,

it's not about what you do, it's
about who I am. How does that

help us connect the dots between
your story and what Jesse was

saying about we're created to
mirror, to respond, to be filled

and then move from there.

Julia: Well, Jesse just named it
as anxiety. And I think that the

anxiety and the anxiousness of
just being of a soul in anguish,

a soul that, and that's really
what we where we ended up going.

Then in the book is, is, how do
our soul, how are our souls

discipleship? That discipleship
is actually soul formation. And

so, you know, it's not about
what you do, it's about who I

am. In the book, we actually go
through and go back to the I am

of who God is. And, you know,
the the neuroscience of all of

it is that that we are made to
mirror God. We are made in the

image and likeness of God. So
God's I am. How does he

introduce himself to Moses in in
Exodus chapter three, he says, I

am who I am. I am the one that
exists, which means that there

is, he is the one that was, that
is and is to come. It means he's

always there and he's always
present, which means that that

there is no past and there's no
future. There only is the

presence of Jesus with us in
every moment. And so the

connection is that no matter
what I do, no matter where I am,

God is always present with me,
that he is the witness of God is

is what we get to experience
with us each and every day. And

so discipleship is actually
getting to experience the way.

Of God, which is the most
amazing ability, like Jesse

saint, it's so simple that he's
with us. So that means I don't

have to figure out what to do. I
just have to ask, and he's right

there and he's going to answer.
And so then, how do we do that

throughout our lifetime? Because
that's it's not just, you know,

I say that super simply, as if I
have this constant conversation

with God, and in some respects,
I do, but it's not like God says

to me things clearly all the
time, like, you know, I in my

life have probably had two, what
I would call really clear words.

Everything else has been
learning to discern what I

believe or sense that God is
doing in the way that he

communicate. And how is that is
inquiring in His temple. As

Psalm 27 talks about, you know,
one thing I asked of the Lord,

the thing that I think you know,
seek most is that I will dwell

in the house of the Lord all the
days of my life and get to

inquire in His temple. And so
it's like just inquiring of God.

And so asking God questions is a
great way to get to receive from

Him. And so instead of just
saying, Okay, I have this big

project in front of me, saying,
Okay, God. I I believe that God

gives us way more agency than we
realize. I mean, if anything,

this has been the most
empowering, the most life giving

and authority, and really the
ability to walk more in my

authority and Jesse's authority
as we've even written the book,

how our authority flows from our
identity, because our it doesn't

mean that we stop doing or that
we we're sitting, you know, as

Jesse would say, you know, up on
a mountain by ourselves. You

know, as a monk, you know, up on
the mountain ourselves. There's

nothing wrong with that, but
that's God calls us to a life of

community. So that's not
realistic in my life. I you

know, for as a mom, there's
years where you don't even get

to go the restroom alone, like
there is no solitude and silence

for many decades out of your
life and and I think the beauty

of it is to be okay with it,
like, like that. That's just

what, what God has given I'll
say me in the last year is just

a contentment of that he is
always with me, so I don't have

to if I'm running up against I
don't know what to do next.

Okay, then that means that the
timing's not there. Maybe the

grace isn't there, or God's
making me aware of something

that I need to pay attention to.
Maybe not, you know. So you

know, there's, there's different
processes that we now go through

in terms of, just, Okay, God,
what? What do you want me to

know? What do you want me to do?
Those are some prayers that that

I've learned from some dear
friends of mine. And so what?

What that has allowed me to do
is just come to a place of being

very both content, but also just
really being able to receive

from God, not just on a daily
basis, in the morning during my

devotional but in a moment by
moment, God's going to give me

what I need to be able to know
what to do in this present

situation. And that's that's
brought more freedom to my life

than I could possibly ever have
imagined before. And in fact, I

think it's, I don't not. I think
I know it's way more fruitful

though doing is so much more
life giving, the doing and the

fruit that's coming out of that
is really, is really been just

mind blowing. So again,

Jacob: when we started, was
like, What is the difference

between discipleship as doing
and discipleship as receiving?

And a lot of what you guys have
talked about so far sounds a lot

like the like a says easy, does
hard. Like it, it sounds easy to

say, we'll just wait for the
Lord to direct. But actually,

like that's harder than buying
the book, joining the class,

doing the thing right for a lot
of us, because there is that,

whether it's Western culture or
popular Christianity or whatever

it is, there's always something
in us telling us we should do

more, be more, have more. And so
there's resisting that urge. If

we're speaking to the person
today who has been doing daily

devotionals for the last three
years, has joined every class

their church offers, and they
still still feel inadequate or

like there's something more for
them to be as they grow in their

faith. What would you say to
that person as a next step or as

an encouragement for where they
are?

Jessie Cruickshank: Is a great
question if I'm speaking for

myself as a person who has ADHD
like doing can become a

distraction. It becomes it
becomes a vice. It becomes a way

to have control. It's it becomes
a way to exert agency when I'm

feeling powerless. And that
isn't always what God has for

me, and so I've had to do less,
be less, accomplish less, in

order to be closer to God in
those places. And then it's in

that that I have realized that
my faith is not about. Doing. My

faith is not about works. My
faith is actually about trust

and and the doing can become a
noise to distract me from the

ache and the hole that says, I
don't know if I trust God is for

me. I don't know if I trust that
God likes me. I don't I want to

do more in order to earn his
trust in me instead of actually

realizing he already trusts me.
It's me who doesn't trust him.

And so the slowing down has let
that become very loud, which has

required me to lean into, Okay,
God, you don't give me answers,

but you always give me your
heart. That was something I

discovered in 2020 God doesn't
always answer the questions. In

fact, a lot of times he doesn't.
So wisdom, like, I was raised

with Solomon being the ultimate,
like, best follower, but Solomon

ended badly. So like, why do we
and he's not listed in the faith

hero Hall of Fame in Hebrews
like, like, the New Testament

does not look at Solomon as a
hero. And what I, what I, when I

leaned into that, I was like,
oh, Solomon asked for wisdom.

God doesn't always give wisdom.
Sometimes he says no to that and

to answering your question, but
he never says no to giving you

his heart. He never says no to
connection. He never says no to

abiding. He never says no to
that deep relationship. And so

sometimes for me, I am doing as
a substitute for relationship,

and the Lord will resist me so
that I form a deeper

relationship. So for the person
who feels like they've done all

of that, like let the Lord
resist you and lean into

relationship and connection and
abiding where he is resisting

you because he's doing it on
purpose. And, and you just said,

Jacob, you know that for the
person that feels like, oh, you

know, they're not good enough,
or they're not they're not

making it right, it's that's
where I would start. So, and

what I mean by that is starting
with the feeling, and we talk

about this a little bit in the
book, but it if you are doing

all the right things, so to
speak, right, like all what we

would call the Christian things,
in terms of, I'm doing my daily

devotions, you know, I'm seeking
Jesus with all of my, you know,

heart, soul, mind and strength,
all of those things. Why do we

feel that sense of lack right?
And it's, you know, ultimately,

you know, it's because there I
again,

Julia: that there's something
that God wants to do in our

soul. So instead of saying, I
feel that I feel this way, and

looking at it as if there's
something wrong with me, or

there's there's some sort of
sense of lack, instead, it's an

opportunity to say, okay, Jesus,
I'm bringing to you, I feel like

I'm not good enough. What do you
want me to know about this. What

do you want me to to receive
from you today? Because there's

something in me that feels like
there's a disconnect here. And

so it's not about not doing the
devotions, or not, you know, or

not listening to worship, like
you still do those things. I'm

not, where none of us are saying
that you don't do those things.

What we are saying is, and
there's some key things that we

that we need to get back to in
our discipleship, is confession,

which is truth, telling the
truth of what I of what's going

on. When I talked earlier about
anxiety and mentioned that the

truth is, is that I feel this
way. And so one of the things

that we talk we have an entire
chapter in the book in which we

talk about our emotions, and we
talk about what our and how we

actually, God gave us emotions,
which means they're for our

redemption. They're not because
they're a hindrance to us. And

you know, being, being women in
particular, sometimes, you know,

we can get charged with, Oh,
you're too emotional, you know,

all of those things. But we
honestly had to, I had to

wrestle through that a lot
writing this book. God, why

would you give us emotions if
they weren't supposed to be

redeemed? So we actually go into
so when we think about emotions,

and we can, I think need to
devote an entire episode to

this. But there are six core
emotions. If you've ever seen

the movie Inside Out, you know,
there's fear, there's anger,

there's disgust, there's
surprise, there's grief and

there's joy, and all of them
serve a purpose, and all of them

serve a purpose in the kingdom.
And so we have to begin to start

naming our emotions, which is
also a distinctive what of what

God gives us as image bearers of
God, our ability to name things,

which is what we talk about in
terms of our even our God given

identity, that we have been
named and that we have the

ability to name things. And so I
think that the core of how we do

this, and how we're able to
receive and we don't feel, is,

can we confess? Can we truth?
Though, not. Now that's not

saying to God, this is how I
think I should feel. You know,

this is what I think is actually
the truth of what's happening.

It's it's saying the bad word,
maybe, and cussing at God and

saying this is what's really
going on. Or I'm so afraid, or I

feel so much anxiety that my
soul is being crushed right now,

and I don't know even where to
turn that's what I'm talking

about. If we can't truth, tell
to God and confess our

separateness to. God from God.
You know that's what sin is. Sin

is separation from God. If we
can't confess our sins, our

separateness to God, then we are
not going to be able to be able

to then receive from him what is
truly forgiveness. That's what

forgiveness is. That's what
repentance is. Is him changing

the way that we think, and him
giving us his thoughts back to

us, and the only way that's
going to happen is if we start

with confession. And that's
actually what Luke 24 talks

about. I think that's actually a
greater indication of what the

Great Commission is that he it
says that Jesus opened his

disciples minds, this is after
the resurrection, to understand

the scriptures, that everything
written about him, and the law,

the prophets in the writings,
and that repentance for

forgiveness of sins would be
preached in Jesus name. And I

think that key of forgiveness
and repentance that's the true

path to discipleship, and that's
really what we how we learn to

receive.

Jacob: Yeah, so if we're
speaking to the person who has

done all the devotions, has
joined every program, and

they're still feeling like
there's more room for me to grow

a question they might be asking
God is like, Hey, where are you

if, if all of this doing is not
bringing the peace that I'm

looking for, and that's a good
place to start, right? Because,

like, what you guys have said
is, very often the answer we get

is, God says I'm right there
with you. And that's, that's

really where we want to begin.
Great. Well, thank you guys

again. If you're listening and
you want to go deeper on this

topic, make sure you look for
Jesse and Julia's book becoming

good news. There is more good
stuff like this in there, and

we'll be talking about more
topics from the book becoming

good news on the podcast as we
go along, so continue to join

us. Thank you. You.