Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship podcast. I am Jesse
Cruikshank, and today I have

with me two very dear friends,
Timmy and Letitia Hensel. They

are pastors in Kansas City.
Unfortunately for them, they're

chiefs fans, but we're praying
for them all the time. They have

been my good good friends for
over a decade now, and we've

lived some life together. We've
walked through some things

together, and they have a
beautiful church. They they co

lead and CO pastor beautifully.
And so today we get to hear some

of that story, of what they've
walked through, what they've

been, what they've seen, and
what, more importantly, what

they've seen God do, because at
the end of the day, none of us

is smart enough to be able to do
this whole discipleship thing.

Well, we require the Holy
Spirit, but I think that's the

point. So to me, Tisha, what
would you what would you add to

that intro?

'Tisha Hensel: I love being part
of the community here in Kansas

City, not just because the
chiefs are here, but I actually

love pastoring in a city that
represents some of what I

believe the gospel can be the
city that has a history of

division in so many ways and yet
clings to unity in others. So

our football, our barbecue, our
music, are things that bring

this city together. So I love
pastoring in a city where

there's a hope for the kind of
unity that I believe the gospel

wants us to represent. And so I
love that, and I've fallen in

love over the last several years
as we've been co pastoring

together with this process of CO
pastoring, co leading and

shepherding a little you know,
flock here that I love, and I'm

so humbled and grateful to get
to journey together with

Timmy Hensel: Jesse. Thank you
for having us, incident

commander. Excuse me, for those
who don't know she was the

person the go to person for Hey,
what do I do when this happens?

I still have her contact on my
phone as incident commander.

Jessie Cruickshank: I managed
all the evacuations for the

wilderness ministry for over a
decade. So

Timmy Hensel: yeah, Jesse, what
do you do when a kid pulls a

butterfly knife? You know? Yeah,
that was the last one I think I

asked about.

Jessie Cruickshank: The problem
is, is I had like, four answers

come up in my head to that. But
anyway, so tell us a little bit

about your the faith community
that you guys co lead, and

maybe, maybe talk about what it
was like when you got there, and

compare and contrast that with
where it is today. And then we

can unpack some of the journey
and what it's taken for that,

but give us a snapshot of like a
before after

Timmy Hensel: the church
community that we're a part of,

we actually have been here
since, I believe, 2006

'Tisha Hensel: Yeah,

Timmy Hensel: yeah. And I would
say, I always say, crash landed

here. It was a place of healing
for us, being in ministry for

some time and walking through
some, some journeys of pain, and

that's a whole nother other
podcast, but this was a place

that we found healing, that it
wasn't about necessarily

transactional, of what we give,
but this is a place that we

could receive, and that was a
beautiful, beautiful healing

time. We've met some amazing
people that are that are a part

of this community, that have
really shaped formed has caused

us to grow. I will say my mentor
was a huge part of seeing me,

seeing us, and encouraging us to
be able to walk out and

entrusting me and investing
where some values that I really

felt were really embodied in
this community, such as caring

for the poor and caring and
pastoring a city not just a

building, realizing the church
is a people. I will say there's

a lot in between of where I end
up going now, but several years

ago, we went through a really
hard transition, where the

person who was my mentor and
taught me all the things, a man

I love to this day and miss
dearly, we went through a,

probably one of the most painful
times of my life, where

transitioning to where it was a
rough transition. It was, it was

not what any of us planned or
hoped for, and I find myself in

getting my master's degree, and
then all of a sudden, stepping

into taking over a this church
community, feeling just not

ready, unprepared, and like what
in the world is happening, but

also seeing the hand of God in
it, and the grace of God really

stepping into that situation
where there was a an

acknowledgement that he, he had
my back in this thing, and he

had our back.

Jessie Cruickshank: So you take
over the church. Is called River

church family. Tisha, what was
it like for you that stepping in

and becoming the leadership of
that that you bring to the table

suddenly changing what. Was that
like for you?

'Tisha Hensel: Yeah, I think
that was one of those unplanned,

didn't anticipate sort of
experiences, like Timmy said he

was in the middle of completing
his master's degree, and so

initially there was this, this
moment of, well, you know, how

can I help? How can I be a
supporter? I'll preach once a

month. That'll be my
contribution that I bring to the

table. And slowly, over time I
started, you know, coming to

staff meetings and being present
in different spaces in our

community, and also really
noticing how God was using us

together. So this realization
that there was something really

particular about how we
ministered alongside each other,

that was going to be really
valuable, I think, for this

community. And so it was
learning that, learning about

myself as a leader, but also
learning about us as a leader,

as CO leaders, that's been a
learning experience, and there's

been a learning curve and bumps
along the road, for sure, in

that process. But I think
sometimes I say, you know, God

is so good. Because if he had
told me this was the path, I

would have said, No. But since
it sort of just unfolded through

the process of walking it out,
it has become something that I'm

really grateful for. You asked
that moment of transition, one

of the things I think about is
how gracious the people were

with us. It was difficult for
everyone. But even then, there

was this grace on it being okay
that we didn't have it all

figured out, which has created
such a wonderful foundation to

build from, I think, for our
community, that if we can stand

together in that space of having
grace for one another when we

don't yet have it all completely
figured out that's something we

can we can all grow from
together. I think,

Timmy Hensel: yeah, there was
this excitement, because we had

received, when we were in Bible
College's word that our ministry

together, there would be a
blessing on it, us doing it

together. Yet for most of our
marriage, we've been married now

25 years, we were doing it
separately. She was in different

areas, I was in different areas.
And I'm like, That person was a

false prophet. They didn't know
what they're talking about, but

I started to see this hints of
like, her stepping in. And there

was this moment where I was
pushing like, hey, step into

this, everything. And she said
something to me that really kind

of woke me up. She said, I need
you to trust that I can hear

from the Lord as well. And it
was like a moment of, okay, I

need to trust my wife in this
area, that we're doing this

together, that it needs to be
she needs to hear from the Lord,

not just from me, in this
moment. And so that was a huge

moment you had, you had asked,
like, kind of, what was the

culture we walked to in that
time? And I was just thinking

about that, like, I will say, we
use the word organic, like, a

lot, which I would say, I love
that word. But also it also

means that we would go from one
thing to the next, and there it

was, like, sticking jello to a
wall. Sometimes there was this

drive of constant, what's the
new thing? What's the new thing?

So, primarily events focused,
primarily project focused, and

just it was a machine like and
here's what I will tell you. I

mean, we started a nonprofit
that does transitional housing.

Previous to that season, we have
a swimming pool, community

swimming pool, a ninja golf
course that we run our summer

ministries. We have, you know,
of course, our church community,

and we're caring for the city
and doing different things where

we're really loving our
neighbors and intentional. But

it was like thing to thing to
thing to thing to thing. And we

really felt this drive because
we hang out with people like

Jesse crucifix, that's like,
Hey, how are you discipling

people in this which service is
a great opportunity to do that.

Also, there's opportunities for,
how are we doing deep character

development with living with
people, with, you know,

community with people, where
we're not just showing up to one

thing and doing it, and then we
go back to our, our the way that

we we live. But how do we create
this culture of discipleship

that that builds character in
others?

Jessie Cruickshank: So how would
the average person in the

congregation think about
discipleship when you guys took

over? You're doing these
missional events, you're you're

out there, very busy. I remember
there's any anything that, at

the beginning days that was
characteristic of river church

family. It was, it was busy. But
what did people think that

discipleship was?

'Tisha Hensel: I think the, you
know, the average person, the

average member of the church,
probably thought it was a class

that they attended, you know,
that they went to a class on a

Wednesday night or a Sunday
afternoon, and that once they

had, you know, completed those
classes and checked those boxes,

then, you know, they had
participated in discipleship. I

think there were also people at
the same time who were modeling

that sort of life on life
experience like to Jimmy's point

is that when. You're serving,
and you're really committed to

serving even your community.
Well, that's going to be

something that happens over a
long period of time and with

really slow, incremental change.
And as people were walking that

out, I think they were actually
experiencing a lot of

discipleship in those spaces,
but to the point of organic,

maybe without a good trellis or
guide to really name that that's

what was happening. So there was
these parallel experiences of my

discipleship, is this class that
I'm taking, or this Bible study

that I'm doing, but then my
service is sort of separate to

that. And so I would say there
was like it wasn't well

integrated it was happening, but
the integration of labeling and

understanding where it was
really happening, maybe wasn't

present.

Timmy Hensel: I remember Jesse
this moment of where we had an

opportunity. We have built team,
and we're wanting to do mission,

vision values as we're stepping
into this. And I was talking to

one of my really good friends,
Ryan coffee. He's four square

pastor in San Antonio, and I was
telling him, you know, we're we

have the we have our mission,
vision, values, and we're going

to tell the team and and give it
to him. He's like, Who are you

Moses, coming down from the
mountain? He's like, That is not

who you guys are. You are
collaborators. And so that was

another I feel like I just get
slapped in the face a lot in

ministry, there was this moment
of like, oh, actually, that is

true. And that brought us on a
journey of a really long process

of what it means to take a team
through that, to hear people, to

listen to people to compromise,
to know that it's not just us

that her and I, that hear from
the Lord, but we have a team

that is multifaceted, who make
up the body that everyone has a

part and the ability to hear
from Jesus, and that we Now have

ownership in this. It's not just
authoritarian or, you know, this

is what we're doing, get in
line, or the, you know, this is

something that we heard and
discerned from the Lord

together, and that really has
been the culture that we've been

forming in these years.

Jessie Cruickshank: So first of
all, you learn your wife can

hear from the Lord, and then you
learn that, like the people on

your staff and your team can
hear from the Lord,

Timmy Hensel: yeah, I don't,

Jessie Cruickshank: I don't know
why you're still there. Like,

what do you do? What do you
bring? But when you

Timmy Hensel: I ask this
question a lot,

'Tisha Hensel: obviously
something, they keep you around,

sure, when you say that it took
a long process, what are we

talking about? Are we talking
about four facilitated meetings?

Are we talking about a 90 day
prayer process, like, like,

define Help, help. Help us
understand what long process

means. We did all of those
things. Yes, there were four

facilitated meetings. Yes, there
was 90 days of prayer. But I

think where we've really seen
the most change in transition,

and where I would really apply a
timeline to a shift, because

some of that, I think we were
doing like there was this

realization that we're having in
real time of, wait a minute, I

can hear from the Lord. You can
hear from the Lord. Our team can

hear from the Lord. Okay, let's
rethink how we're approaching

our processes, but then the
wheels are still turning at the

same time. And so it's not
necessarily that we could just,

I mean, maybe you could have,
but we didn't choose to just

stop all of everything. We were
just slowly beginning to

recognize where as we
collaborated, we would identify

things that didn't align with
who we had committed to being

together. And so a couple of
things that really helped us

with that. One was we had some
of our team go through a hoology

course, and one of the focuses
in there was talking about

creating community guidelines.
And our process of creating

community guidelines among just
our staff, just our primary

pastoral team, that took several
months, and it from that process

as we began to engage those
guidelines, as we said, not just

here's who we want to be, but as
we began to sort of say, Okay,

now we're going to have to
actually walk this out together.

That was the part. You can list
a few guidelines in a in an

afternoon session, but when you
have to actually start

implementing them with one
another, that takes time to,

like, step back and say, Oh, we
found an offender. Let's unpack

that a little bit. How did we
get here? What has influenced

this? And that has been an over
two year process, I think, of

coming to a place where we
really feel like those

guidelines are something that we
not just share, but we really

embody with one another. But I
would say the whole eight years

that we've been co pastoring has
been building towards that, but

with several years of just kind
of little, small adjustments,

and then a moment of realization
as we. Created and crafted like

this is who we really want to be
together, and now we have to

wrestle with the places that
don't align with that. And that

takes, I think, a lot of time.

Timmy Hensel: Yeah,

'Tisha Hensel: we're still
walking that out, you know, but

with a better anchor and
framework of who we want to be,

which makes it a little bit
easier.

Unknown: So

Jessie Cruickshank: how does,
how does that conversation go?

Because, you know, when I coach
on the social contract and

setting up those guidelines,
it's always, it always takes on

an aspirational kind of abstract
version of things, and then as

we as people start to walk into
them, and they're, you know, I

named what offended me, but
apparently nobody believed me,

because look at all you guys
being offensive, right? So, like

those things happen, of course
they happen, but now you have

the opportunity to have a
different conversation than if

you hadn't done those guidelines
and built those together. So, so

maybe, maybe reflect on one of
those conversations and think

about and and share with us, not
not the details, but what, how

does that conversation go, and
how did that community agreement

that you have allow that
conversation to be potentially

life giving, if, if you think of
a good life giving one, because

I know sometimes they aren't
always. Sometimes people lose

their jobs because they just
can't stay

Timmy Hensel: I just think of
the many times where I have been

the one who's been the offender,
and how humbling that is if

you're committed to this as a
team, how hard that is to

constantly own, apologize, get
out of the way. Hold back. What

is way easier is is to just say
this is what we're doing and and

you're either with me or you're
not. Is way harder to do it this

way. And so there is an element
of having to practice what you

preach and model what you
believe in deeply, to be able to

do that. That is very humbling.
It's very humbling. And I'm

constantly being humbled, even
as I am on this on this podcast,

Jessie Cruickshank: I love you,
yeah?

Timmy Hensel: I love

'Tisha Hensel: you too. Yeah.
No, I think that is a really

good example. It is sort of the
what is the conversation is

like, it may be the leaders
going first and and being the

ones who are willing to to name,
oh, I actually see that I have,

you know, been an offender, or I
have offended something that we

had on these, on this list, and
and modeling that process out. I

think what the question of,
like, when it's life giving,

because, because it is
difficult, like, that's hard,

that's uncomfortable. Nobody
wants to be in a person in that

place of humbling themselves and
acknowledging when they were

wrong. And it's when you get to
see, though, how that builds

trust. And so the the moment
that I think about where you

could see that some trust was
being built was one of our team

members named, this feeling that
we had for a while, like, as

we're kind of crafting these
guidelines, as we're talking

about what does that mean, if we
say we're going to be vulnerable

with one another, what does that
mean? How are we going to define

that? And as we're having that
conversation, one of our team

members named she said, I feel
like I'm standing on the edge of

this cliff, and we are all
standing here on the edge of

this cliff, and I just don't
want to be the one who jumps

first. And so my question is,
are we going to all hold hands

and go in together, like, is
this going to be something that

we're all going to say yes to
and really commit to each other,

that this is real and this is
what we want in terms of how we

want to lead and be pastors and
leaders and ministers alongside

one another. But is, is anybody
going to jump with me, and that

feeling of both the precipice of
knowing that, like something

really good can happen and come
out of this, and it's really

scary, but if we are going to do
it together, there was this

sense of like, then I want to be
part of that. Because I do want

to be part of something where I
don't have to do it alone and I

don't have to have all the
answers, and as hard as it is

then to admit that I've made
mistakes, because that's what

that means. Like, if I'm not
doing it alone and I don't have

all the answers, I'm probably
going to make mistakes and have

to apologize. But if I can be
confident in, if I can build

some confidence in the fact that
I'm not going in by myself, that

we're all going to hold hands
and jump together at the same

time, if we can figure out how
to do that, then, yeah, I want

to, I want to take that leap.
You know, what has this journey

cost you?

Timmy Hensel: It's caused Pride.

'Tisha Hensel: Pride was going
to be my very first answer, too.

Timmy Hensel: Control the
temptation, understanding that

there's always the shadow side
that wants to, wants to control

it when you have a collaborative
environment that is open to

trusting and. Hearing and
listening, that temptation is is

always there, because it's
easier that way.

Jessie Cruickshank: And you get
tired, right? You sometimes you

just you're just tired.

Timmy Hensel: And that's
something you know in the CO

leading, we had to work that out
with each other as well,

trusting each other, because we
know each other the best you

know, we know we are with each
other constantly, and so there's

elements of having to repair and
own and and doing that with each

other so that we can model that.
I will tell you, we didn't do

that well in the beginning. We
worked out some things in front

of the staff at the beginning,
but we've, we've come a long way

in communication with each other
that has helped model that, I

would say, the cost and tissue,
if you want to take it there,

there have been people that have
not been able to go with us and

that that is really hard.

'Tisha Hensel: And part of what
is so hard about that is not

being able to protect our whole
team from that pain and grief,

this shared commitment, this
jumping in, this holding hands

and going together, that there
may be people who say, actually,

I don't want to jump off this
cliff. This doesn't. This isn't

a cliff I want to jump off and
and that's okay, right? That has

to be okay that this isn't. This
isn't everybody's place to do

that. But it's hard, and it's
painful when that happens and

and having to walk other people
through that as well, like to

not to not be able to just take
that all on, like, oh, it was

just my decision. And I'll take
the heat for that. There's a

certain amount of I don't know.
Maybe that leads to some, some

pride and protection, control
kinds of things, but just

acknowledging that other people
are going to experience pain

too, that that when we're doing
things relationally,

relationships are are messy and
they're risky, and we can't

eliminate that risk for
ourselves or for our team, and

so that not being able to
protect others from pain for me,

Where I want everybody to be
okay all the time. That has been

really hard to make space that
says because I want honesty and

transparency and connection more
than I want everybody to be okay

all the time. I can't have
everybody be okay all the time.

I have to release that. Need to
make sure that everybody's

always good, fine, happy. That's
not real. I want it to be,

though, and so that's, that's
really been hard. That's been a

cost. It's been, it's, I'm, it's
a good investment. I'm willing

to pay that cost. But it still
has been hard.

Timmy Hensel: You want to save
them from the pain, you know,

kind of like, you know, just, I
know where this is going to

lead. This is hard, and this
like, out of love and

protection, you want to shield
from that, but also to include

them. And that is, is this is
one of the things we've really,

I think, has been important, is
that we are people that don't

shy away from conflict, and so
that, that is one of the biggest

teachers that that we can have
and and to give them the

opportunity. And that is
something I think that when we

have walked through some
difficult situations to ask and

say and hear from them, are you
willing to do this because it

will cost and including them in
the cost as well, as opposed to

saying of protecting them from
it, but giving them an

opportunity to be brave as well,
which we have the most brave

people out there.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love how
you guys are describing this,

because protection is actually
very often a motivator for

control. There's good
protection, but then there's a

lot of control addiction that's
justified as protection. And

really, you just don't want to
clean up a mess, right? You

know, there, there is altruistic
protection. Then there's

protection based out of fear,
where you're not trusting God,

you're not trusting the other
person. There's protection based

out of, I don't want to deal
with this later. So, you know,

like, like, kind of protecting
your own bandwidth and margin,

but whichever kind it is, it
usually stunts growth, whether

it's in kids, whether it's in
adults, whether it's in your

team, you can throttle threat,
but you can't protect people

from threat, and like I said, it
it, for the most part, stunts

growth. So what have you seen as
growth in your team, and then

maybe the congregation, the
culture at large, as a result of

you guys sharing the pain,
sharing the burden, sharing and

doing that collaborative
leadership, both with each other

and with the team, like what's a
story of someone who is

different? Because you guys went
in that direction as a church

'Tisha Hensel: to Tim's point,
like when he says, like, we

we've been so it's been so
incredible to see how brave and

willing to grow the members of
our team have been. And so, you

know, there have been all of
these different ways that we've

seen that. Come to light, and it
is hard now that I'm, you know,

saying it is hard to just name
one, because I can think of

people who had, like, really
deep interpersonal experiences

that were really transformative
for them. But I think one that

comes to mind too is like a
person who maybe kind of found

their voice in this process. One
of the things is we committed

to, you know, less programming
and more space for disciple

making. For me, that meant I had
to change some of what I was

doing as a leader, I was
responsible for the majority of

our teaching and preaching
calendar, and I realized that if

I continued to do that and
preach 75% of the time, I would

never have time and space to do
any disciple making. So I had to

create a teaching team, and I
invited someone onto the

teaching team who really
questioned whether or not they

belonged there in that initial
time, and by continuing to be

brave and continuing to trust
the team that was being built up

around her, she began to
identify, actually, there is

something about the way I speak
that connects to this body in

ways that nobody else on this
team can do, and other people on

the team were able to name and
encourage and call out, even in

front of the congregation. When
this person speaks, she forces

you to sit with what she says.
And that was like, everybody's

like, that is what happens when
she speaks. And she was like,

that is what happens when I
speak, you know this reality

that she has grown into an
understanding that her voice

doesn't sound like other people
on our team's voice, and they

have unique and powerful and
purposeful voices, but she

connects in a way that others
can't, and I don't think that

would have happened even her own
ability to name where she felt

like that sense of, maybe I
don't belong here, like she was

able to name that really
bravely, and that opened the

door for people to begin to
speak into that, and for her to

be able to see for herself. It's
been incredible to be part of

that and to see that, and it's
been for us, like for me to go.

The truth is, if I continue to
preach 75% of the time, that

gift would have been missed. And
what a what a loss that would

have been, you know,

Jessie Cruickshank: like, what
is some of the fruit of this

journey been like? Like, if you
were to look around and survey

the scene, because you're
incident commander for your

you're standing in incident
commander Timmy, what do you

see? What has God done in these
last few years that is fruit and

a testimony to taking and going
this direction.

Timmy Hensel: I see way more
people at the table, way more

voices at the table. I see a
reflection of our community. I

see a lot of people. This is
something that's been huge to

something we value is one
anothering. We're we are people

who want another. When you look
at the scriptures of we're

breaking bread together. We're
hanging out with each other.

There's joy, there's sharing.
We're holding burdens together.

We're praying together like we
have people right now or in the

middle of 75 days of praying for
what are we doing with this next

season with a pool that needs a
lot of renovations, we're

holding this together as a
community, and there's something

about that where, when, when we
if we really our church is

called River church Family. If
we are a family, we own this

together. It's not from a
declarative catalyst place of

here's here, Thus saith the
Lord. We all get in line and

follow, follow that, that person
running ahead from the flag. But

we're a community that holds
hands together and says we're

standing at the cliff. Can we?
Can we take this step together,

wherever we are in that journey?
So, yeah, I think that the fruit

of togetherness, collaboration
many people, as opposed to just

a select few, who are the voices
of this place. I came back from

sabbatical. I'm like,
introducing my my like, Hey, I'm

I'm Timmy, one of the pastors
here, you know, kind of thing,

like new people. And people ask
me, ask this question a lot, who

so? Who are the pastor here?
Who's the pastor here? Like

that, to me, says a lot of the
community that we've created,

and we have some amazing people
because Jesse, there's a lot

with this, but like the power
dynamics, we still are the We

Are The still the people in
charge, and so we are people

that also invite people who are
on the outside, who are wise,

you know, Brian, James and
Michelle, who are able to step

into our communities and have
conversations that we can't have

because of what we represent and
the power dynamics of which we

represent, and so but there's
there's so much fruit from that

that I want to give honor to
them for how they've really been

a support.

Jessie Cruickshank: They're
therapists, and so they help

with church hurt and wounds and
the dynamics and all the things

that a lot of us. Our healing
from in these seasons. So, yeah,

they're beautiful people. Tisha,
what would you add?

'Tisha Hensel: I would agree
that what with what Timmy named

ownership is definitely, you
know, shared ownership,

collaborative ownership,
ownership that isn't like, This

is mine, and I'm in charge, but
I will hold this weight with

you, right? Like, that's a
different kind of way of saying,

I'm going to come alongside and
own this with you. I don't have

to take anything and hold it
tightly, because it's mine and

mine alone. But instead, I can
come alongside and support and

lift up another person, and I
can own that I need to be part

of carrying that weight, that we
do this together, and that I own

that, and it is that anchored of
being tethered to one another,

in that that if I see you
carrying a heavy weight and

you're struggling, I don't look
the other way. I participate in

ownership with you, with that
and another, you know, big thing

that I feel like has produced a
fruit in our freedom, in our in

our worship, there was really,
for a long time, a real sense

that we were really struggling
to enter into places of freedom,

in our times of worship
together, and in our times of

just, you know, lingering in the
presence of the Lord, where it

felt like there were these,
these barriers. And one of the

things that having some
therapists and outside

consultants come alongside was
to help us identify places in

our culture that we didn't see
ourselves. And we talk a lot

about how we had initially a we
don't talk about Bruno culture.

It's from a movie, a Disney
movie, where it's like, there's

this hidden thing Every family
has the person in their family

that we don't talk about, we
don't talk about Bruno. And we

realized we had a lot of those
kinds of things. I was

particularly guilty for saying,
here is a can of worms. Notice

the can of worms. We will not
open the can of worms that whole

like we're going to control the
situation. We're going to admit

that there's been a thing, but
we don't want to let it get out

of hand, right? We're not going
to let the worms just go crazy

here. We just know there is a
can of worms, and that's all. We

don't dive into it. So now we're
people who are more willing to

say, well, we don't want to have
things that we don't talk about.

So even collectively, we're
willing to go to different

places. And I don't know why,
but that feels like that is part

of what has created a new
freedom in our worship, like

we're not held back by the
things we can't say or that we

don't talk about. We bring all
of it before the Lord and and

that process, I really do feel
like being able to walk through

that individually, as a staff in
individual circumstances, has

led to breakthrough freedom and
worship corporately and

collectively in ways that I
don't think you could prescribe

that as a system. I see that as
fruit of our journey,

Timmy Hensel: there's a
trustworthiness here, because I

noticed that the Lord is
bringing people here, like

drawing people who have been
hurt through church hurt. And we

have amazing ministry leaders,
prayer and ministry and

deliverance leaders here, Cody
and Amy and people are being

drawn here for healing. That
says that the Lord trusts us,

but also the word is out that
this is a place that you can go

for healing. And one of the
things I was just thinking about

is like the fruit of is that we
are people that do hard things.

That means that there, there are
things that we have. We have

steps that we have taken, like
having a communion meal, where

we're going to sit together have
a meal, if, if we, if, if we

couldn't get people to come back
to have a community meal or or

have it during the week, or
something like that, we're going

to do it in the middle of the
service and do this together and

and so, you know, it's all
disruptive, and there's tables

and food, and we're going to ask
each other questions, we're

going to pray for each other.
Created those spaces. I remember

having people that are like,
Well, I'm not coming. I just

want to go and sit and and just
be in the back and and I

understand that there are
seasons that people are walking

through that that this is not at
all, but no, we're the people

that are going to do the hard
thing, so this is what we're

doing. And I had somebody who
had that viewpoint that came

back and said, I get it. This is
good, you know. So

Jessie Cruickshank: if you guys
could encourage people who are

listening, whether they are a
pastor, a faith leader, or

whether they're just an ordinary
person who cares about making

disciples, whether that's in
their in their living room or

out in their neighborhood. How
would you encourage them that,

that the journey is worth it.
How would you encourage them

that the slow move of building
that collaboration, the humbling

the the learning to communicate
and and all of the things, the

very unsexy, painful you're not
going to get in pastoral

training, things that you guys
have leaned into so well, yeah,

yeah. Why is it? Why is it worth
it? Why not just go back to

Moses on the mountain with a
mission and vision that you you.

Express, and now they all have
to recruit them all to follow

it, because that, I mean, it is
simpler. It is easier. As hard

as that is. It is easier than
this. So why do why do the hard

thing?

'Tisha Hensel: I think my answer
to that question would be, if

you are a person who desires to
see people walking in wholeness.

If your heart is that you really
want to see lives be

transformed, and you really want
to see people come to places of

deeper healing and freedom, then
this journey is 100% worth it,

like being willing to dig deep
to make the sacrifice to go

first in the apology or the
ownership of the places of

wounding to model having hard
conversations, to continue to

hold space in places of tension
like these are the things that I

think we have seen bring real
freedom restoration, and the

journeys are not over. I say
that as a person who's like

still holding tension in spaces
and still desiring for the

completion of the work that
Jesus himself can do, but seeing

that shift towards wholeness and
healing, I wouldn't trade that

for just about anything,
anything at all. So it

Timmy Hensel: feels way more
real. It's way more authentic. I

find myself connected to the
Lord in a way that I I don't

think I could do it. I don't, I
don't. I can't go back to the

other way. I feel like I would
be not true to myself and who

the Lord has has really, I feel,
made it to be because you look

at the early church, and it was
way more open handed, way more

many people doing many things
that is worth it to me, it is

worth it when I see all of the
people on our team and the

growth that I've seen that
people have voices, that they

have opinions, that they are
holding this fully, that we can

walk away like I was on a three
month sabbatical, fully,

trusting the people, knowing
that the church would grow while

we were gone, and it did, and it
is way more I don't feel like I

don't. The burden is not as
heavy. This really gives an I

feel like I'm living out the
bear one another's burdens, like

there is something to not having
to hold the burden of this place

by myself, that there is a full
team, an amazing wife and who

really were doing this together.
And that is a that is worth it.

It's hard, like getting to
places and like, agreement and

all that, like we got to work
through so it is so slow, but it

is, it is worth it. And I feel
like this sets us up for the

long game.

Jessie Cruickshank: Those are
good words. You guys are doing

an amazing job. You lead an
amazing, beautiful church, the

people are so good and yeah,
like, the reason why people walk

in and don't know who the pastor
is isn't because there's a lack

of leadership. Isn't because
you're like, isn't anybody in

charge here, but it's because
there's so much leadership,

because there's so many people
who have ownership and lean into

their thing and are ministering
to one your congregation

ministers to each other. And so
you're like, yeah, so many

people are executing that any
one of them could be the pastor,

or any one of them could be the
lead pastor, and you guys have

just done such an incredible
job. So thanks for sharing your

stories with us today. It's been
beautiful. I love having you

guys around.

'Tisha Hensel: It's been so fun
to do this with you, and we're

grateful for the ways that you
have supported and how we've

been able to learn from you to
help bring this to where it is

now too.

Timmy Hensel: Yeah, you've been
instrumental, Jess and one in my

education and being one of my
professors with two your book,

your classes, your constant
checking in on me, and the voice

that you've held in our
community as well,

'Tisha Hensel: he's got To check
on him, you know, I,

Timmy Hensel: I'm really
grateful for you, and I just

want to say that,

Jessie Cruickshank: well, you
guys are good students, and

you've, you've built on what was
there and and just continue to

grow it. So, yeah, I love to
visit. It's so good. Well, I

just want to, I just want to
thank you for being with us.

There are stories out there
about how this is worth it and

you guys. You guys are one of
them. You guys are one of the

exemplars and Well, thank you
for listening to the ordinary

discipleship podcast. You can
learn more about

hooology@hoology.com O, that's
W, H, O, o, l, o, G, y. We have

the community development tool.
It's called ordinary community

that Timmy and Tisha were
hinting at among a bunch of

other resources there. But you
can also listen to other

podcasts on the ordinary
discipleship podcast. Anywhere

you get your podcasts,

Timmy Hensel: go, chiefs,

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