Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary

discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse
Cruikshank, and today I have

with me my dear friend Daniel
Yang. Daniel and I have known

each other. Gosh, I don't know.
I think we're going on 1112,

years. I'm not

Unknown: sure. Yeah,

Jessie Cruickshank: but Daniel
and I knew each other three

careers ago, and we have both
changed different seasons of

life in the time. And for me,
Daniel has been one of those

people in my life that is like a
spiritual brother to me. It

doesn't matter what my season
is, what his season is. I always

Daniel. I always feel connected
to you. You're always the Lord

brings you to my mind. I pray
for you regularly, and so I

don't know what that means in
the grand scheme of things,

maybe, maybe we live in the same
cul de sac, although I don't

think that we're like cul de sac
people, but in heaven, like

maybe we live in the same
housing development. It's

probably something cooler than a
cul de sac. But just feel like

you, you've been part of my life
the last decade or so in this

very spiritual brother kind of
way. And I'm so excited to

introduce my audience to you and
the amazing work that you're

doing with World Relief these
days. So welcome to the ordinary

discipleship

Daniel Yang: podcast that's so
cool, so special. Thanks. Jesse,

yeah, I feel the same way. I'm
just scrolling through our text

right now. I'm like, wow, you
know, it's just the the range of

experiences and processing and
prayer in seasons that we've

been through together, you know?
So that that is makes this

conversation even, even more
special. And you know, the work

that you're doing your gift mix
like, I feel like I'm always

connected to people that have
like this, this, like, eclectic

convergence of skill and life
story. So I think that's part of

the reason why I was gonna say
quirky. But it's not a quirky

thing. It's a eclectic, that's
my word eclectic. So

Jessie Cruickshank: which could
also mean quirky,

Daniel Yang: which? Well, I
mean, who else does wilderness

experience in neuroscience and

Jessie Cruickshank: not a lot of
people, but exactly. But will

you introduce, introduce
yourself to our audience and

share a little bit about the
work that you do with World

Relief, and whatever backstory
you feel like you want to add to

that. Yeah,

Daniel Yang: yeah, yeah. So, as
you mentioned, I work for an

organization World Relief as a
Senior Director of Global

Mission and church movements.
And World Relief has been an

organization that has been on
the front lines for over 80

years, front lines of the result
of consequences of war,

catastrophe, disaster. It's an
NGO. It's a humanitarian

organization, but it's it's much
more than that. It is really the

church being in the places that
is hardest in the world and in

the United States for nearly
five decades, World Relief has

helped churches work with
vulnerable immigrants, refugees,

traumatized people who have come
to this country and then are

trying to restart their life,
and I never had envisioned

myself working for a
humanitarian mission

organization like World Relief,
but it's always, it has sort of

always been, I think, I guess, a
natural place for me to end up,

because of my own family. Story
is former refugees from Laos and

came to this country in the late
70s, 1979 and really just taking

on multiple layers of identity,
whether that's a national

identity as an American, we
became Christians through this

process of refugee resettlement.
So there's a religious,

spiritual, you know, shaping and
formation that happened in our

refugee experience and then the
different contexts that I've

lived in. You know, my parents
were resettled in East Moline,

Illinois, which is kind of
rural, small town, cornfields

Illinois, but very quickly moved
us into inner city, Detroit. If

you all have seen the movie Gran
Torino, that gives you a good

sense of, sort of how I grew up
ethnically I'm Hmong. And so

that movie was about the Hmong
refugee immigrants that have

kind of restarted their lives in
inner city, Detroit. So for me,

I feel like my work. You know,
they say this about PhD

research, that sometimes
research is me search, and maybe

it's sort of kind of true that I
now work for World of leave

because I'm I'm trying to, like,
make meaning of my story, if

that makes sense, and this gives
me proximity to other people's

stories to help me understand my
own story as well. So along the

way, my wife and I, we got.
Married at 19. So that's

another, you know, interesting
layer. We have five kids. I had

my first career as an engineer,
and then eventually pastored,

planted churches, missiology, so
all that, yeah,

Jessie Cruickshank: you have
five beautiful children who what

the oldest is in college, right?

Daniel Yang: Oldest is now just
working, 24

Jessie Cruickshank: Okay,

Daniel Yang: and then my
youngest is seven, so pretty big

range,

Jessie Cruickshank: dude, it's
it's a huge range. You're gonna

be a parent forever.

Daniel Yang: I know isn't that
crazy we were because the first

three were like 2422 and 20 and
then there's a nine year gap

between the third and fourth. So
we thought we were going to be

empty nesters at 45

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. What
happened to that plan?

Daniel Yang: Well, you know, God
has his own way of writing your

story. So, so I often joke with
people like I have two sets of

children with the same spouse,
because it feels that way.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, yeah,
but your wife, Linda, is

amazing. She's crazy. She at
least this time last year,

worked also in refugee
resettlement,

Daniel Yang: yes and Yep. She
feels very called to that work.

And so she also works for World
Relief. And still, still, God

has her there. So she works
directly with refugees looking

for work. It's amazing. Like
her, she literally is helping to

save lives by helping people
find work. And so, yeah, it's, I

really love the work that she's
doing.

Jessie Cruickshank: So it's so
beautiful. Like I remember we

met being nerds trying to help
the church on a missiologist

Council, and like trying to help
the church in North America see

its neighbor, reach out to its
neighborhoods, reach out to the

next generations. We nerded off
around Gen Z and church planting

for a while, and now it seems
like life has taken us in this

direction where we're not
trying. We're not only trying to

help people love their neighbor,
but also love their enemy, love

their friend, see who they're
called to even more broadly. And

I remember, you remember Boston,
I'm sure, I'm sure you remember

right? Like Boston gathering,

Daniel Yang: yeah,

Jessie Cruickshank: forge Ford
Foster was, was, I think it was

pivotal in a lot of different in
multiple ways, but one of which

is that your story actually
helped me understand my story

and helped me and helped me name
some things that I couldn't have

articulated before without you.
And you were sharing, and I know

you, you know this, but, but you
were sharing the different

perspectives and the different
narratives that exist in people

groups in in America. So there's
the everything is getting worse.

Narrative, like, like, of course
the rapture is going to come.

It's so bad, and it's just
getting worse, and so Jesus has

to come get us. So there's that
narrative. There's a narrative

of, hey, the world is getting
better. It's growing and who God

is for me in this this time. And
as you were naming these

different narratives of these
different populations, and I'll

have you share that
specifically, because I'm

already screwing it up, what I
remember the most clear is that

you shared what an immigrant and
a refugee narrative is. So an

immigrant and a refugee coming
to America, how God has saved

them, how God has helped them,
and of course, of course, God's

for them. Of course, God's with
them. Coming out of these

terrible circumstances that
causes somebody to be a migrant

and a refugee that God is the
author of that story. For them,

and the way that you described
it really named some things for

me, because coming from a middle
of nowhere, Wyoming, and not

feeling very connected to the
evangelical Christian

establishment that I was serving
in vocationally like I didn't

understand why they always
thought the world was ending. I

didn't understand why they
always thought things were bad,

because God saved me from my
life, and and and I, and growing

up next to the reservation of
the Indian Reservation, I felt,

I'd always felt like an
immigrant into evangelical

Christianity, and so you named
some of those things for me, and

I, I really appreciate that. So
so maybe kind of if you could

share just a little bit of those
different narratives for our

audience and and help us
understand the way that a

migrant and a refugee actually
experiences God and and that

story that they're living in
that God is that God is writing

for them?

Daniel Yang: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thanks. Thanks for setting that

up, because I do remember us
having those conversations and

how, in some ways, the the
immigrant. Narrative, although

comes from a particular kind of
life experience, there is a

shared experience of like, you
know, trying to make meaning of

our trauma, trying to make
meaning of our not just personal

story, but sort of like, what
led up to those moments of

trauma in our lives. And so
that's a human activity. You

know, it's not, it's not
relegated to the immigrant or

refugee experience, but
immigrants and refugees do

experience that in a very unique
way. What I shared in Boston,

and also have been spending a
lot of time, you know, even in

the last it's probably been
three or four years since Boston

thinking through this. I at that
point I was I was talking about

some of this in terms of what
sometimes is called the arrival

narrative. At times have used
the term fulfillment narrative.

The Arrival narrative sort of is
this idea that like

displacement. That's probably
the larger word for the

different categories of people
that have had to leave home,

displacement is a disruptor, and
it causes a very traumatic life

experience. And then for those
who have felt like they've had

to force leave home, like they
were forced to leave home, they

can't return. How do they make
meaning of that? You know, how

do I? How do I make meaning of
the war catastrophe, the

killing, the lost lives and and
then to then restart your life

here in America in the 21st
Century, and the arrival

narrative really has an
imagination for well, God, you,

you, you don't author war or
catastrophe. You, you surely did

not cause these things to
happen, but you are sovereign

enough to direct and to and to
make good. And so the arrival

narrative is discovering God
amid that, you know, and asking,

God, where are you in my
family's experience? And this is

goes on to the second and the
third generation, and it begins

to give a bit of like meaning
and purpose to the pain. And

part of the reason why I've
often often talked about it as a

fulfillment narrative as well is
that there becomes a full circle

moment when you begin realizing
that, Oh, wow. Like as somebody

who is once a part of a
community that was highly

traumatized, I now am also a
part of what God is doing to

bring healing to others, right?
And so there's sort of a full

circle fulfillment concept
there. And again, I don't think

this is unique to the immigrant
and refugee experience. I think

it's a human project, but the
way that we've experienced it,

and it takes, it's generate, it
takes generations, right? It's

not something that you can
experience within five to 10

years or even 40 years. You
know, it takes, you know, my

parents, in my generation, and
my children, and we're still

asking that question, Jesus has
been the lens through which

we've tried to understand our
experience and our trauma and

tried to reimagine our
experiences. And it's not

simple, like it's not as easy as
saying, Well, Jesus is on the

throne. That's not what I'm
saying. Although he is on the

throne, thank God. And it's not
as simple as saying, Well, now

that I'm a believer now and I'm
saved, then at least I'm going

to heaven. Because it's not that
simple either, although that is

a beautiful fact, it's this
reimagining of like Jesus in the

project of war. And like you
were saying earlier, when you

are othered, and you see people
as enemies, and you see people

as you know, causing harm and
violence, and you're asking the

question, Jesus, how do you it's
very much what Miroslav both

wrote about back in the 90s. I'm
drawing a blank on his name, on

the book of his name, but he
talks about, essentially, how do

you find Jesus amid conflict and
tension and even violence? And I

feel like immigrants and
refugees are the embodiment of

of what that looks like.

Jessie Cruickshank: What do you
think is the reason that God is

asking us, as the body of
Christ, always in Scripture, to

like be a safe place for them,
to receive them, to show

hospitality, to welcome them, to
feed them, to take care of the

foreigner, the widow, the
orphan, the immigrant, the

person who is homeless or and
country less and things like

that. Like, what do you think
the Lord's plan is, and why he

challenges us to do that?

Daniel Yang: It's his nature. I
mean, it is. It is his nature to

to give of yourself to find a
greater sense of life and

completion. I think it all flows
from the character of God, who

he is, and what it means to
instill in a people his nature

and his character, and so I
think that's kind of like the

big the big idea, you know, I
think when it comes to the

experiential aspect, what? So,
you know, just to kind of, what

does it mean for the church to
create welcome for those that

are we would consider vulnerable
in society? Because in some

ways, that is acting according
to our nature. We're we're in

the image of God. We're
especially as as followers of

Jesus. We're modeling, you know,
our life after Jesus, which is

an incarnational, sacrificial,
other oriented lifestyle. And

it's in, in some ways, you know,
Jesus said this himself. It's in

losing yourself that you sort of
find yourself right. There is no

indication from the Bible where,
if you accumulate a lot of

things, and if you, if you pack
your storehouses, then you are

more like God, you know, like
there's no teaching in the

Bible, and that says, If you
fill up your storehouses and if

you relish yourselves in the
most comfortable places, then

you will find more of God,
right? It's sort of the

opposite. In Zechariah, when God
is speaking to His people. He's

saying, hey, you know, if you
turn your ear away from the

orphans, the poor, the widow and
the foreigner, the way that you

turn your ear away from them,
that's exactly what I'll do to

you. In some ways, a part of it
is to reveal to us again that

that is his nature to to empty
yourselves. I mean, it's, it's

what Paul writes about Jesus in
Philippians. He, he, he divests

himself. The practical, you
know, aspect of that is when I

love somebody who almost,
virtually impossible, can't give

to me what I've given to them,
then there is a beautiful

exchange of life that that
happens that is close to the

Divine Right. That's what Jesus
is saying at the parable of the

banquet. You know, you invite
those who can repay you. What's

the point? And so there is
something almost divine about

reaching out to those who can't
repay you. And so I think in

some ways, having seen this
happen in my life, having this,

seen this happen over and over
in churches and everyday

Christians, you know, you know
the saying, you know, I received

more than I've given like that
is certainly true. And I think

the only self preserving thing
about that, because I think

there's some, some, some some
self preservation involved in

doing this kind of work is that
you realize that this is some

eschatology here for your
listeners. But you know, when

you get to the end of
everything, when you get to the

end of like, all the pain and
the suffering, Revelation

Chapter 22 and you see Jesus
face to face, like the intensity

in which we believe that we
should love those that are most

different from us, like that
will be given back to us, and

it'll it'll be revealed to us,
like how important that was,

like that level of Like giving
and so and that that's why the

Bible talks about like having
crowns and treasure in heaven

and stuff like that, which I
don't think is necessarily like

physical, material wealth. It is
the intensity in which you give

out and pour out your life on
this side of his coming that's

going to be translated into
meaningful wealth on the other

side,

Jessie Cruickshank: yeah, I like
to say that we're not

accountable for what we know,
but we're accountable for how we

love. And

Unknown: you

Jessie Cruickshank: know what I
what I love about what you're

saying, If I can connect some
dots that are that are happening

in my head, is that the the
person who's been on this

journey, the refugee, the
immigrant, the migrant, because

of the trauma they've
experienced, which is why

they're moving, right? They're
not just moving because they're

trying to take advantage of
something. They're moving

because they cannot live where
they are like something terrible

is happening, right? It is. It
is a migration born out of

trauma and trial and horrific
circumstances and suffering and

all of that. And so they,
because of that journey, they

have asked questions of God.
They've experienced God in ways.

And then they come, you know,
if, if I'm sitting in my church

in North America, in Denver,
they're coming to my door, and

there's an. Understanding they
have of God in a way that they

process their trauma, or a way
that they're talking with God

about that that I don't know,
right? I might have trauma in my

background, but I don't
necessarily know how to process

it, because maybe I haven't seen
it, maybe I haven't asked those

questions, but, but when I think
about the gift that migrants and

refugees are because of their
experience, because of the way

that they have encountered God.
There's an understanding they

have of God that is a gift to
everyone else. So like to reject

them is like rejecting the
Prophet. It's like turning out

the you know, rejecting Jesus
even because you're like, Oh,

you have a thing, but I don't
actually need it. And so we

don't see that they have
something that we need. Because

I think we often think about
taking care of migrants and

foreigners and refugees as a
charity, not as a gift of God to

us to teach us something about
his nature and his character

that we wouldn't necessarily
understand otherwise. And so

when we reject them, we're
actually rejecting this gift of

God, this part of his nature,
this messenger, this missionary

I know, I know some of the
people that we know are

literally missionaries to North
America that are being, you

know, removed or a danger for
things like that, and, and so

we're saying, Hey, we don't need
your message. We're fine. And,

and so even more than an act of
charity, which I think on some

level, it is, but it's actually
a gift to be received, you know,

these these people and their
stories, and it makes me think

about what Jim Wilder teaches
about enemy mode, where, you

know, enemy mode is the state of
the brain, where we perceive

that what the person in front of
us is an enemy. And there,

there's lots of reasons, and
we're all different, so whatever

triggers us, and we're like,
wait a minute, I don't know if

this person is safe. And so we
go, our brain goes into enemy

mode. So it goes, like, into
this lockdown, right? It's like

we put up a force field while we
assess the risk and we figure

out what to do. The problem is
that when we're in enemy mode,

and it could be it's it's for
protection, it's in order to

strategize. But the problem of
it is that if we stay there, we

cannot receive from that which
is other than us. We cannot

receive from that which is
outside of us, which includes

not only that person in front of
us, but also the Holy Spirit. We

literally cannot hear the Holy
Spirit when we're in enemy mode

and we're perceiving that who is
in front of us as an enemy. So

not only can we not receive from
them? We can't receive from God.

We are not receiving God through
them, and we're not hearing God

on our own anyway. And so I
just, I just think about how God

is always challenging us to love
our enemy, to receive from that

which is other than us, and just
how much we're failing at that

right now, and I and I feel like
that's a strategy of the demonic

that is the spiritual warfare of
our day. Because I don't think

that at least the people that I
talk to are not that prone to

thinking of other people as
enemies, right? I think, I think

we're being encouraged in that.
I think we're being

propagandized into that. I think
the algorithms on our phones and

all of these things are are
pushing that, because then we

click and we do things. But how
is that experience landing with

the people that you work with?
You know, if, if we think about

the person who's come from a
place, maybe they're Christian,

and then they came from a
country where there's

persecution, and now they're
here, and now they're

experiencing persecution. Like,
like, what is? How is this

posture of enemy mode landing
with the people that you serve,

and in now they're going to be a
refugee twice. I don't I mean,

like, what are, how are they
experiencing this and and what

is that like for for people,

Daniel Yang: yeah, yeah. I mean,
and some of maybe what you're

alluding to is the change in
posture and policies in in the

United States right now, towards
certain categories of

immigrants, and especially those
who losing protected status,

legal status. And then those
which announced as of the

recording on this particular
podcast a little bit over a week

ago, even refugees that were
admitted during Biden, even all

of them 230,000 and will be
reinvestigated. So breaking the

enemy mode. I mean, that is,
that's a huge summing block,

because I don't think we quite
know how socialized we are into

categorizing certain kinds of
immigrants as as enemies and so

and this is. Always been a
challenge for every generation,

throughout not just Western
history, but world history, the

language that a particular group
of people will drain your

economy, will threaten the
security of your country, and

then are taking resources from
another you know, demographic.

This is sort of old hat language
and rhetoric, and it gets

rehashed in different ways, and
certainly in some cases like

those, things have happened
before. So I don't want to say

that, that that all of that is
completely untrue. You know, we

have seen it in nations where
there are times where security

is being threatened and stuff
like that, but usually not by

refugees. You know, it's usually
by, like, actual military force

where, where I've seen this
happen that is disturbing to me

is where it used to be that,
let's say refugees, which is a

very classified group of people.
It used to be that, like,

Americans weren't afraid of
refugees, you know. But almost

within a few years, there's now
this layer and veneer of like

skepticism, you know. And the
average American in the world

might, they might have not
thought this before, but now

there's a check, you know. And I
think enemy making starts with

that, you know, that suspicion
where it's just kind of like,

Yeah, but do I really know
everything about that person?

And do I, you know? And so, and
it's that, that tussle between

that, that check, that's, you
know, and then all of a sudden,

there are reasons for you to
then give in to that suspicion,

and then, and then, usually it
becomes almost conspiracy,

spiritorial, or you actually
have a negative experience, like

you experience a negative
experience, and and and then,

which justifies your suspicion.
And then, you know, and then you

turn, turn into enemy mode. And
I feel like that is something

that has always been a threat.
And I think Jesus's words, the

Sermon on the Mount, you know,
to love your enemy, that is sort

of the the ethic in the morality
of what it means to be a

follower of Jesus like that is a
constant, like tension that is a

our move towards our enemy, for
the sake of reconciliation and

for the sake of love, is a
discipline. It is a spiritual

discipline, you know, just like
reading your Bible, just like

going into church, you know,
being in spaces, you know, not

saying, like every space should
be this, but being in spaces

where you often feel
uncomfortable and you might

suspect something about a group
of people and they might suspect

something about you, like that
is a discipline to be in, and in

some ways, that's always been
where the church grew, and the

church has been like, awesome,
and that's part of the reason

why we understand the persecuted
church. It often grows under

adversarial context, because the
church begins to love beyond its

limit and and then that breaks
the walls, and it breaks the

barriers, right? And so we see
that all the time, Jesse and I

think that institutionally,
we're at a point now where

institutions have felt like I'm
seeing institutions like other,

you know, other categories of
people. It's not just

individuals, but it's
institutions. And so I feel like

we're in a moment now where we
have to really reimagine like

loving your enemy as a basic
discipline of what it means to

be a follower of Jesus.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
can't agree more. I mean, I've

studied some other religions,
and I'm not not super

comprehensive, but I have not
encountered another faith that

where, where the people are told
it is a command to love your

enemy in the other other faiths
that I've looked at, it's

transactional. It's like, you
know, if they're your enemy, tax

them or, you know, put them
outside the camp and and the

faith of Jesus says, invite them
into your home. Bring them in,

bless them, keep them warm,
which is what putting coals on

their head is to like, like,
like, send them with warmth and

blessing, you know, take care of
them. And as I I just can't find

another religion that asks and
commands its followers to do

that. So, so not only does Jesus
say love your neighbor, but then

you also have to love your enemy
and treat them as if they're

family. And sometimes are, you
know, sometimes those are

synonymous. But the requirement
is always there. So there's

like, there's literally no one
we're allowed to be mean. To,

there's literally no one we're
allowed to dehumanize. There's

literally no one like even go to
the people who are in prison,

you know, so, so regardless of
of deserve merit. You know,

we're, we are required and
commanded by Jesus to go to to

love, to bless, to take care of
and we and we're because we're

supposed to just let God manage
the what we deserve and what we

don't deserve in this in this
world.

Daniel Yang: Yeah, and a part of
that, and the reason why, again,

if you go back to that part in
Matthew five, when Jesus is

talking about this, you know, he
says, You heard him say that,

you know, love your enemy and
then hate your or love your

neighbor and hate your enemy. I
think he I mean, you know this

more than I do, but Jesus has
mastered the human experience

like he knows how the body is
programmed, like he knows why

our bodies tense up. He knows
why our bodies go into fight or

flight mode, and he knows how a
body can release tension and

heal itself. And, you know,
maybe he doesn't know in the way

that a medical doctor knows it.
I don't know, but I think he's

introducing, reintroducing into
the human experience, in that

mandate that like the only way
to really overcome fear in

situations where you're going to
fight all the time, or you're

going to you know, because
hating and fighting and violence

are all sort of part of the same
spectrum, Right, is to disable

that mechanism in in your soul,
your, you know? I mean,

sometimes you will will locate
it to the amygdala, right? But

it's probably broader than just
that, that that place in our

brainstem. See, I'm going into
your field of expertise now.

Unknown: Keep

Jessie Cruickshank: going. Keep
going.

Daniel Yang: But, but, um, and I
feel like, you know, Jesus is

being very He's helping us to
identify like our seed of fear

and deface our fear. And the way
to you have to cross a

threshold, and the threshold is
going from like fearing and

hating to love. Now I don't
think he is saying, like,

necessarily, have, you know,
tremendous feelings for the

person who's murdered your
parents, like, I mean, and maybe

he's saying some version of
that, but I think what he's

generally saying is that, like,
there are categories of people

that society have told you, has
told you to be suspicious of, to

not love. You know, if you're a
Jew, it's the Gentile, right?

And he's saying, we have, we
have to overcome that. And one

of the markers of you being a
part of the kingdom is that you

know that a marker of being a
part of the kingdom is that you

press into that fear and that
hate until it becomes love,

right? And that's how you
actually bring the kingdom.

That's how you actually usher it
about. And I think it's a

strategic It's experiential, and
it's a part of what Christians

are called to do in order to
usher the kingdom,

Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, and
to be, to be a little nerdy like

it's not only necessary for our
spiritual development, but it's

also necessary for our
biological development. Because,

as I've been looking at and
leaning into loving this idea of

loving your enemy for the last
year, and looking at how the

first, the first person that we
decide is our enemy is actually

our parent. So as an infant, you
are crying and you need stuff,

and the parent doesn't fast
enough, or they get it wrong,

right? You actually are hungry
and they're changing your

diaper, or vice versa, or
whatever. And like, if you've

ever seen an angry baby, like
babies get angry, it's one of

the core emotions that we're
born with. And so the first

enemy that we have is our
caregiver. And so the first

enemy we have to overcome that
anger and that othering is is

our caregiver, so we can receive
from them. So we're so we have

to repair, we have to reconnect
with the caregiver in order to

receive from them in order to,
like, receive food and warmth

and love and, you know,
nurturing. And so as an infant,

it's a parent, and then it
becomes like a sibling or a

playmate who has the toy that we
don't have, or has the cookie we

don't have. Or, in my house, it
was growing up as the bathroom,

you know, we had one bathroom
and three kids. So there was,

there was a fight over bathroom
time because it was a limited

resource and and so you have to
learn how to forgive, repent,

reconnect with your enemy, you
know, sibling or playmate. And

then we go to school and we
experience people who don't like

us, teachers and and. If we
haven't figured out how to

repair with our enemy, we
actually then take that on in

order to be identify with the
person that we're trying to

connect with. And we make
ourself our enemy. And so we

take on the posture of an our
enemy towards us. So if you have

a parent who you can't earn
their affection, then you end up

like over identifying with them
and hating yourself. And so we

turn that enemy on ourself in
order, because we're created for

connection and and, and when
we're in enemy mode, we're not

connected, we're not connected
to God, and we're not connected

to each other. And so, so if we
don't learn how to repair with a

parent or a sibling, a playmate,
a schoolmate, then we get

stunted biologically, and then
that, I think that remains with

us spiritually. So so for me,
loving your enemy, repairing,

reconciling is is the core of
what we're supposed to do in

this life. It's how we receive
from Jesus, it's how we hear

God. It's how like so for me,
even my definition of sin is

separation. So it is the the
death that sin brings, while

that reconnection brings life.
So, so when we treat the

vulnerable like this. We are
operating in sin, not not

idealistically, because loving
our enemy is a command at every

age of our life, at every stage
of our development, it's not a

thing to aspire to. It's
actually necessary. And so I

just my heart for the body of
Christ right now is to is that

we would discover this and we
would be like, Oh no, that's

actually more important than
attending a church event. Is

learning how to love the the
person who I feel other than

right now, learning how to bless
them, learning how to go to

them, learning how to be open to
connection and and moving

through because, because unity
is a choice. Right, moving

through that you actually have
to choose to move through that

you have to choose to forgive.
You have to choose to repent.

And I just, I don't know how we
experience the kingdom without

that. I don't know where the
kingdom exists without that. So

my body, my heart hurts for the
body of Christ right now,

because we're not experiencing
the kingdom. And so I'm just,

I'm just wondering if, if you
could, you could maybe give us

some sort of like hope. Because
right now I'm like, Ah, you know

the kingdom, the kingdom
continues to come in our midst

as we do this. What is, what is
something that the people of of

the Body of Christ, the people
who are like, I'm not okay. I

know this isn't the kingdom, but
I don't I don't know what's

going on. You don't feel okay.
Like, how? How would you

encourage them right now? Or,
what? What might you say to them

in this, in this moment, in our
in our culture and in our

history?

Daniel Yang: Yeah, I'm gonna try
to make this as sort of

practical and as relatable,
because I'm realized that

everybody listening is probably
not necessarily a church leader

or institutional leader, and
you're, you're you're just a

everyday follower of Jesus, and
you just really want to bring

the kingdom to wherever you're
at. I think it is important to

to continue to have a strong
sense of like biblical identity,

because the pull away towards
that in, you know, whether it's

national or ethnic or racial
identity, which are all really

important categories, but
rooting ourselves in Scripture

and allowing the scripture to
confront biases is so important.

And so that begins with a work
of like the Holy Spirit.

Because, you know, I mean, I'll
be honest, there are a lot of

Christians. Of Christians out
there that are speaking on this

issue, and they're not informed
by a conviction of the Holy

Spirit. They're informed by the
other side of the political

spectrum, right? So I'm just,
I'm and maybe there's nothing

wrong with that in particular,
but when my advice is to be in

the Scripture so that your
conviction comes from the Holy

Spirit and your quiet times. And
then don't be afraid to exercise

your voice. And it may be scary,
you know, it may be scary to to

say, you know, to correct your
pastor and say, Hey, I think

what you said from the pulpit is
not consistent with the ethic

that Jesus presents in Matthew
in, Matthew five. And I'm not

asking anybody to to send email
complaints to the pastor, but

what, what I'm saying is that
sometimes people feel like my

pastor is not being vocal, or
he's he's actually perpetuating,

you know, othering other people.
And so exercising your voice is

in the right, in the right, you
know, approach. Is really

important, and then finding
healthy coalitions of people to

be a sounding board so that you
can have a outlet to release,

you know, the pent up negativity
that often we might feel

because, you know, for those of
us who especially feel like

advocates. We always take on
through empathy and sympathy,

you know, the energy of other
people. And so you need places

to release that, to process
that, and to be reminded that

it's not all you know, your own
work. And then the fourth thing

I would say is, for most of us,
we're not going to save the

world, but be in proximity to
people in places where you can

create impact and so and it's
probably as simple as finding

somebody at the school where
your kids go to school that feel

most threatened right now by the
recent policies, and being a

friend to them and loving them
and caring for them and letting

them know that they have the
image of God. And because for

most of us, paralysis becomes
apathy. And so the way to kind

of break out of apathy is to not
be paralyzed. And way to not be

paralyzed is to find the little,
small things where the kingdom

can break in, and that is as
simple as finding a person who

feels most threatened right now
in being present in their life,

and that that human connection
of being present in someone's

life where they feel like
they're a vulnerable immigrant

right now, that's something that
even if they get removed from

this country, like that
experience that they had with

you, they'll take with them. But
what we're seeing is that when

you're willing to be in
proximate spaces with them and

your family with them, that
reduces the chance of them

actually, you know, feeling like
they're going to be, you know,

removed, right? So I think
proximity is so important, both

for the people that you're
trying to help and it's

important for

Jessie Cruickshank: yourself.
That's so good Daniel, and I

think if I would just, if I
could just add one thing to it,

because I know some people who
may not have kids in school or

or they live in places where
they're like, I don't actually

know how to be proximal to
someone. I think about having

prayer meetings, because even
even if someone's listening to

this, this podcast five years in
the future, and some of that the

on the ground situation is has
changed, like praying for with

other people praying for whoever
is the outsider or the enemy in

your community or or that your
Lord, the Lord is moving on your

heart for like, I think that we
can always do that in every

season, because this isn't, this
isn't a New situation. I mean,

I'm, I'm, I'm the third
generation child of Irish

immigrants, and the reason why
they were in the West is because

they weren't allowed to live
anywhere else, because

Unknown: they were,

Jessie Cruickshank: they were
dirty, and all those things that

are being said about immigrants
right now, we're set about the

Irish and the Italians, right?
So like sea gangs in New York,

right? It's, it's a, it's a
thing that reoccurs so it never

goes away, which means we can
always, I think, join with other

people and pray and say, God,
you know your kingdom come, Your

will be done in these, in lives,
in our community, as it is on

heaven. And I think that can
keep us that can keep us open

and receiving for however, the
Lord would lead, Daniel, if

people want to donate to World
Relief or get involved, is

there, is there a place that
they can go? How can if, if

they're in one of those
situations where they can, they

are proximal to individuals and
they want to, they want to

connect with the work that
you're doing. How would they

find you?

Daniel Yang: Yeah, absolutely.
Worldrelief.org worldrelief.org

you can find out sort of how to,
how to connect. If your church

in particular wants to be a
place where you create belonging

and welcoming for others, you
can also go to churches of

welcome.com which is also a
World Relief website, so

worldly.org for our work. And
then if you want to be involved

and take action, churches of
welcome.com.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, it's
so been, it's been so good to

have you. Thank you for joining
me on this conversation today. I

appreciate you. I appreciate
your heart. I appreciate your

family. Yeah, just beautiful. So
thank you for joining us on the

ordinary discipleship podcast.
You can hear this and other

podcasts wherever you get your
podcasts, and you can always

visit hoology.co that's W, H, O,
o, l, o, G, y.co, to find out

how to be. Be an ordinary
disciple maker, and have

communities that make disciples.